Guest guest Posted July 18, 2001 Report Share Posted July 18, 2001 namaste. I fully to shri shankara bhagavatpAdA's sayings that jnAnam alone leads to moksha, or cessation of the transmigration of the subtle body. This point was brought up by by shri Sadananda garu in his recent Notes on the BSB. This post arises in that context. Now, what is this jnAnam? Shri Sadanada garu says in his Notes that jnAnam is the Knowledge that I am brahman. I also take it that this Knowledge is not the Knowledge captured by the mind or intellect but is Knowledge that is not different from the knower, that is, this Knowledge is the digested integral part of the knower. Now, if this knowledge were not there: let me put a case history here. I came across a person recently, a young student, whom I had occasion to watch closely. She attends to her duties very well; she is not tortured by any of the six great enemies (kAma, krodha, etc). She does not know anything about them. She does not do things with the impression that she is the doer. She does not know the ego and the evil connotations (in the advaitic sense) associated with the ego. She does not know what brahman is. She helps people to the best of her ability. She does not have any enemies and everyone has a positive feel about her. She does all these things naturally without knowing what Atman, brahman, ego, SELF, etc are. So, in a sense, we can say that she does not have the jnAnam (if jnAnam refers to Knowledge that she is brahman). Yet, she is a perfect example of how a jIvanmukta would behave. So, it seems to me that when shri shankara said "without jnAnam, we cannot attain moksha", He may be referring to two scenarios: (i) He is referring to people who are mired in avidyA and are tormented by the ego and who are subservient to these six great enemies of the human viz., kAma, krodha, lobha, moha, mada, mAtsarya (desire, anger, miserliness, passion, pride, jealousy); (ii) He is referring to jnAnam as the one that leads to moksha in contrast to karma, and particularly emphasizing moksha is not a consequence of karma. So, essentially, my question is: does jIvanmukta have to have the Knowledge that he is a jIvanmukta? Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2001 Report Share Posted July 18, 2001 Dear Gummuluru Murthy Ji, You wrote: >>>>>>I fully to shri shankara bhagavatpAdA's sayings that jnAnam alone leads to moksha, or cessation of the transmigration of the subtle body. I would like to point out here that it is NOT Shankaracharya, who says that Jnanam alone leads to Moksha, but even in the most ancient times this supreme truth was accepted. Refer to the saying of Shukla Yajurveda Madhyandina Samhita, vedahametam purusham mahantam adityavarnam tamasah parastaat, tameva viditva atimrityumeti nanyah pantha vidyate ayanaya, i.e. I know that Great Purusha, who is as radiant as the sun and who transcends all the forms of darkness; only and exclusively by knowing Him one can transcend death, there is no other way to reach that Abode. More than this there are many Shruti's which say the same, "Jnanadeva tu kaivalya" (Kaivalya, i.e. Moksha only accurse by Jnana); "Rite na jnanan muktih" (without Jnana there is no Moksha). If one would read the stories of the Upanishads, it would become explicit that every time when a Sadhaka wanted to obtain Moksha, he was taught Brahma Jnana, may it be Bhrigu, the son of Varuna; Shvetaketu, the son of Uddalaka; or Narada, or Maitreyi. Yajvalkya says so clear, "O Gargi! He who dies without knowing the Imperishable, is the poorest". Kenopanishad says so clearly, "If one realizes It in this life, it is good; but if not, then that is the greatest loss". How, after so many explicit statements, one can dare to say that this is Shankara Bhagavatpada's saying. NO, it is the saying of the Vedas, It is the saying of the Brahmana's and it is the saying of the Upanishads, and Gita. Please see what Krishna has to say, "I give to thoese (to my devotees) Buddhi Yoga (knowledge), by which the obtain me; indeed for their grace I destroy the darkness born from ignorance by the lamp of Knowledge" (Gita 10-10,11). >>>>Now, what is this jnAnam? Let me quote here Ananda Giri, the famous commentator of Shankaracharya, sambhavitamektvam "tadeva brahma tvam" iti vakyajabuddhivrittavavishayataya prakashate "brahmasmi" iti. In this one sentence he has places the entire process of Self-enlightenment. It means, "The Knowledge of Unity (of the Atman and Brahman), when understood (by the intellect), manifests in a special modification of the intellect, which is born out of the teaching "You are That Brahman", The Knowledge shines in the form of the concept "I'm Brahman", but without becoming an object (of a different modification)". >>>>>>I also take it that this Knowledge is not the Knowledge captured by the mind or intellect but is Knowledge that is not different from the knower, that is, this Knowledge is the digested integral part of the knower. Very well, but still let me point out something. When Vedanta talks about Knowledge, it can have three meanings, 1. The knowledge of worldly things. 2. The Knowledge of Unity of Atman and Brahman (Brahmaatmaikya Jnana). 3. The Knowledge which is a form of Brahman (like in Satyam Jnanam Anantam Brahma). The first two knowledge are of the intellectual plane. Yes, even Brahmatmaikya Jnana, see at this Shruti, "drishyate tvagryaya buddhya sukshmaya sukshmadarshibhih", the Brahman is seen by the intellect, which has been sharpened and is very subtle, by the seers. This means that even this knowledge is captured by the intellect, indeed not by the mind. But by a special sort of intellect. However, the third sort of knowledge is not in fact a modification of knowledge, but it is just pure knowledge, pure consciousness, pure ability to know everything. This is above the plane of intellect, intellect is just an instrument of It. Like the eye is an instrument to see of the mind. >>>>>>>>I came across a person recently, a young student, whom I had occasion to watch closely. She attends to her duties very well; she is not tortured by any of the six great enemies (kAma, krodha, etc). She does not know anything about them. She does not do things with the impression that she is the doer. She does not know the ego and the evil connotations (in the advaitic sense) associated with the ego. She does not know what brahman is. She helps people to the best of her ability. She does not have any enemies and everyone has a positive feel about her. She does all these things naturally without knowing what Atman, brahman, ego, SELF, etc are. Let me point out, that this state of naive-ness is due to a different reason. The Vasanas (Subtle Impressions) have not developed yet, as soon as they would develop with the natural development of the person mentioned above, this state which she is in now, would vanish. >>>>>> Yet, she is a perfect example of how a jIvanmukta would behave. Indeed, therefore every time we try to bring an example, we say "like a five-year old child". Consider Ramakrishna's saying "O Mother! Make me a five-year old child". >>>>So, essentially, my question is: does jIvanmukta have to have the Knowledge that he is a jIvanmukta? Please refer to my recent posting, "Re:Apology; Re:I had a dream in 1970". There is famous saying "a saint is a saint, till he doesn't know that he is one". Warmest Regards, Siddhartha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 >Gummuluru Murthy worte: > >So, in a sense, we can say that she does not have the jnAnam >(if jnAnam refers to Knowledge that she is brahman). Yet, she >is a perfect example of how a jIvanmukta would behave. Murthy gaaru - If I may say so again and again (for the benefit of everybody in the list) , it is very important to study the adhyaasa bhaashhya of Shankara. The notes the was provided is very exhaustive and discusses the essence of adviata in a nut shell. You have described a person from your perspective as you see her acting. One can act in perfect surrender to the Lord and all actions with equanimity similar to what a jiivan mukta does. My sashhTaanga pranaams to her. That is the yoga for chitta suddhi. For that person if she does not know that she is Brahman, then that knowledge will come in appropriate time from the blessing of the Lord. An appropriate teacher will come to teach that knowledge and that is the law of nature and promise of the Lord. Acting with equanimity is saadhana. Naturally being equanimous is the result of knowledge. One leads to the knowledge when the saadhana is reinforced with knowledge. The other is the result or byproduct of that knowledge that I am and was never a doer. The discussion by Nisargadatta Maharaj on this topic is very beautiful in the "I am that" book. In the adhyaasa bhaashhya the nature of adhyaasa is clearly discussed - I am a doer, I am an enjoyer, I am a knower etc are all stem from the ignorance of not knowing my true nature of myself. If she has no knowledge of who she is, then mind will project who she thinks she is, and that is notional, since she does not have her true self-knowledge. Ego is nothing but identification of non-self as self. If I do not know who that myself is, then identification will occur as long as there is mind to operate. If the mind is pure, the actions will be noble but misunderstanding that I am the kartaa still remains but in a subtler way ( like the four-headed Brahma who is the embodiment of satva guNa acts) or I am doing for the Lord etc remains until one realizes that aham akarthaa, abhoktaa etc. This understanding is not an objective knowledge but subjective since it is the knowledge of one's own self. In the 18th chapter of B.G. Lord discusses also about Saatvic actions - there is still a knower that I am a doer, however subtle that notion is. > >So, it seems to me that when shri shankara said "without jnAnam, >we cannot attain moksha", He may be referring to two scenarios: >(i) He is referring to people who are mired in avidyA and are >tormented by the ego and who are subservient to these six great >enemies of the human viz., kAma, krodha, lobha, moha, mada, >mAtsarya (desire, anger, miserliness, passion, pride, jealousy); Murthy gaaru - the six enemies that you talked about is at the level when Rajasic and tamasic guNa's become more and more predominant. See Ch. 18 in the classification of actions and attitudes of the saatvic, rajasic and tamasic persons. But saatvic person is also still ignorant and the ignorance can manifest as I am a doer in a very subtle manner. >(ii) He is referring to jnAnam as the one that leads to moksha in >contrast to karma, and particularly emphasizing moksha is not a >consequence of karma. > >So, essentially, my question is: does jIvanmukta have to have the >Knowledge that he is a jIvanmukta? By definition yes. Mukta means one who has liberated. Liberation is by establishing or knowing that I am nitya muktaH - I am aatma and na tu anaatma. As long I have ignorance, the adhyaasa will remain. As long as I do not know the rope as the rope, and I am still seeing some object out there, then the mind will project something which is not a rope. Even if the mind projects as a rope, that is not still knowledge, but that is an assumption and will become knowledge only when it is confirmed or when I see rope as rope not by assumption but by fact. Jiivan mukta is one who has realized 'who he is' while the body is still alive - it is not one who acts like jiivanmukta is jiivanmukta. one who is liberated while living in the body is jiivan mukta - Is it not that by definition? Hari Om! Sadananda >Regards >Gummuluru Murthy >------ > > > > > > > > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of >nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: ><http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/>http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advait\ in/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: ><advaitin/messages>\ advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to the ><> -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 namaste shri Sadananda garu, Thanks for your excellent clarification. I bow to you for your patience, knowledge and willingness to share that knowledge with all. Now, you say, even if a person behaves like what we understand jivanmukta behaves, without that jnAnam (that I am brahman), there is and will always be that seed of ignorance which will sprout sometime as I am the doer. Does that not pre-suppose all are ignorant unless they attain jnAnam, while I understand the reverse is true that the pure pristine brahman is our natural state unless we are covered by ignorance? Regards Gummuluru Murthy - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 > >Does that not pre-suppose all are ignorant unless they attain >jnAnam, while I understand the reverse is true that the pure >pristine brahman is our natural state unless we are covered >by ignorance? Murthy gaaaru - the very presence and recognition of 'All' itself is part of the problem. When we say that they are 'all' and we need to pre-suppose that 'all' are ignorant unless they attain j~naanam - that very statement inherently assumes that 'all' that is existing is real and they are ignorant or knowledgable or whatever. - Forgetting 'all' for the time-being, and concentrating on the one who is making a statement that there is 'all' and that 'all' have j`naanam or aj~naaam, he has aj~naanam - is it not? - How did he become aj~naani when the natural state is pure uncovered Brahman. If he does not have aj~naanma , he would not say that there is ' All' that need to be worried about. Then what happened to the so-called natural state of his! - How one became ignorant is always a question that has no answer in the realm of logic since becoming ignorant itself is illogical having understood what a natural state means. Hence ignorance itself is not real too but one has it since one see the unnatural things and takes them as real! Puujya Gurudev used to give us an example - a fully drunkard student cries out to his friends sitting in his own room 'please take me to my room - I want to go back to my room' However much his friends try to convince him that he is already in his room - he would not listen or accept but cries out in desperation. His friends out of pity take him around the block and bring him back to his room saying that now we have brought you back to your room. The student is now happy that he is at home at last. This is the state of us going from aj~naanm to j~naanam. Not only the natural state but the only state that is real is the pure pristine Brahman. aj~naana is only for the one who takes that ' All' that is existing is really different from oneself. When one knows one self, then 'All' also does not exist in reality but only as apparent. The apparent has become apparent when one realizes the truth of the appearances. The problem as you see is from what reference we are taking this. From Brahman point there is no aj~naanam what so ever and no 'All' to worry about. But the moment we see 'All' and assume that is real, then a`jaana is already there. Who has that a~jnaana ? The one who has is the one who sees and says that 'All' exists and they need to have j~naanam to see oneness of all. You see you are already in the second reference state. Most of the confusion arises when we have one leg there and one leg here and discuss the issues without recognizing that we are crisscrossing these reference states. The bottom line is One should be concerned about one's own self and understand that one's own self is the self in all and there is no all to worry about. Adhyaasa is addressed to that oneslef who takes oneself to be different from oneself. Knowledge alone can make one to see one self as one self - And that is the essence of moksha and jiivan mukta too. Hari Om! Sadananda >Regards >Gummuluru Murthy >- > > > > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of >nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: ><http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/>http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advait\ in/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: ><advaitin/messages>\ advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to the ><> -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 Siddharthaji - Pranaams. > >I would like to point out here that it is NOT Shankaracharya, who says that >Jnanam alone leads to Moksha, but even in the most ancient times this >supreme truth was accepted. Thanks Siddharthaji for bringing out this point. In the notes on Brahuma suutra, I remember quoting at least one statement from each of the ten upanishads that j~naanam alone is a means of moksha. However, I am not sure though Shankara gives any specific references other than to Goudapaada to other previous vedantins mentioning that adhyaasa is the root cause and hence j~naanam is only antidote for the human problem. This does not mean that problem was not recognized as such before Shankara and Goudapaada. There is some notion that some of it dwindled though Naagaarjuna and maadhyamika philosophies. May be you can tell us from your studies if you found discussions of adhyaasa by previous Vedantins before Shankara and Goudapaada- not that it matters but out of curiosity. Your input to the discussion is very much appreciated. Please feel free to comment on the Brahmasuutra notes in terms of clarifications and corrections. Hari OM! Sadanadna -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 namaste. Thanks shri siddhartha-ji for your very illuminating post. While agreeing with what you have stated (the essence), let me make the following observations. On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, sidha wrote: > Dear Gummuluru Murthy Ji, > You wrote: > >>>>>>I fully to shri shankara bhagavatpAdA's sayings > that jnAnam alone leads to moksha, or cessation of the > transmigration of the subtle body. > > I would like to point out here that it is NOT Shankaracharya, who says that > Jnanam alone leads to Moksha, but even in the most ancient times this > supreme truth was accepted. Refer to the saying of Shukla Yajurveda > Madhyandina Samhita, vedahametam purusham mahantam adityavarnam tamasah > parastaat, tameva viditva atimrityumeti nanyah pantha vidyate ayanaya, i.e. > I know that Great Purusha, who is as radiant as the sun and who transcends > all the forms of darkness; only and exclusively by knowing Him one can > transcend death, there is no other way to reach that Abode. > More than this there are many Shruti's which say the same, "Jnanadeva tu > kaivalya" (Kaivalya, i.e. Moksha only accurse by Jnana); "Rite na jnanan > muktih" (without Jnana there is no Moksha). > If one would read the stories of the Upanishads, it would become explicit > that every time when a Sadhaka wanted to obtain Moksha, he was taught Brahma > Jnana, may it be Bhrigu, the son of Varuna; Shvetaketu, the son of Uddalaka; > or Narada, or Maitreyi. > Yajvalkya says so clear, "O Gargi! He who dies without knowing the > Imperishable, is the poorest". Kenopanishad says so clearly, "If one > realizes It in this life, it is good; but if not, then that is the greatest > loss". > How, after so many explicit statements, one can dare to say that this is > Shankara Bhagavatpada's saying. > NO, it is the saying of the Vedas, It is the saying of the Brahmana's and it > is the saying of the Upanishads, and Gita. > Please see what Krishna has to say, "I give to thoese (to my devotees) > Buddhi Yoga (knowledge), by which the obtain me; indeed for their grace I > destroy the darkness born from ignorance by the lamp of Knowledge" (Gita > 10-10,11). > I regard shri shankara bhagavatpAdA as my guru. While He is not here in physical form, He is there always with me in my thoughts. Whatever I learnt, I consider His prasAdam. shri shankara has never said that He is creating new philosophy; He Himself has said at many places that what He is teaching is all in the upanishads, He is simply interpreting them and presenting them in easier language for the good of the common man. I am grateful to you for pointing out some of the vedic statements about jnAnam which found their way into shri shankara's writings in His bhAShyA-s, upadeshasahasrI, vivekacUDAmaNi, etc. I rever upanishads as well as the next person. When I wrote in my earlier post "... shri shankara said such and such about jnAnam ...", I am going by the context of adhyAsa and brahmasUtrAbhAShyA-s. No ill-will is intended towards the vedA-s. > > >>>>Now, what is this jnAnam? > > Let me quote here Ananda Giri, the famous commentator of Shankaracharya, > sambhavitamektvam "tadeva brahma tvam" iti vakyajabuddhivrittavavishayataya > prakashate "brahmasmi" iti. > In this one sentence he has places the entire process of Self-enlightenment. > It means, "The Knowledge of Unity (of the Atman and Brahman), when > understood (by the intellect), manifests in a special modification of the > intellect, which is born out of the teaching "You are That Brahman", The > Knowledge shines in the form of the concept "I'm Brahman", but without > becoming an object (of a different modification)". > > >>>>>>I also take it > that this Knowledge is not the Knowledge captured by the mind > or intellect but is Knowledge that is not different from the > knower, that is, this Knowledge is the digested integral part > of the knower. > > Very well, but still let me point out something. When Vedanta talks about > Knowledge, it can have three meanings, 1. The knowledge of worldly things. > 2. The Knowledge of Unity of Atman and Brahman (Brahmaatmaikya Jnana). 3. > The Knowledge which is a form of Brahman (like in Satyam Jnanam Anantam > Brahma). The first two knowledge are of the intellectual plane. Yes, even > Brahmatmaikya Jnana, see at this Shruti, "drishyate tvagryaya buddhya > sukshmaya sukshmadarshibhih", the Brahman is seen by the intellect, which > has been sharpened and is very subtle, by the seers. This means that even > this knowledge is captured by the intellect, indeed not by the mind. But by > a special sort of intellect. > However, the third sort of knowledge is not in fact a modification of > knowledge, but it is just pure knowledge, pure consciousness, pure ability > to know everything. This is above the plane of intellect, intellect is just > an instrument of It. Like the eye is an instrument to see of the mind. > Yes, that is what I was referring to. That (the third kind of knowledge which you stated) is inherently there in every jIvA, irrespective of what the intellect gains of the first two types of knowledge which you referred. With this (the third kind of knowledge) being the inherent core of the jIvA, the presence or absence of other intellectual knowledge is not very relevant, I feel. I would restate my question from the previous post in the words of your post: How important are the first two kinds of knowledge? Can a jIvanmukta be a jIvanmukta with only the third knowledge and not the first two (intellectual) types of knowledge? > >>>>>>>>I came across a person recently, a young student, whom > I had occasion to watch closely. She attends to her duties very > well; she is not tortured by any of the six great enemies (kAma, > krodha, etc). She does not know anything about them. She does not > do things with the impression that she is the doer. She does not > know the ego and the evil connotations (in the advaitic sense) > associated with the ego. She does not know what brahman is. She > helps people to the best of her ability. She does not have any > enemies and everyone has a positive feel about her. She does all > these things naturally without knowing what Atman, brahman, > ego, SELF, etc are. > > Let me point out, that this state of naive-ness is due to a different > reason. The Vasanas (Subtle Impressions) have not developed yet, as soon as > they would develop with the natural development of the person mentioned > above, this state which she is in now, would vanish. > May well be so. However, this person is not a five-year old but is in the twenties, is intelligent and well past development of subtle impressions. I understand "naive-ness" as lack of worldly tact. Exploitation by the world of such "innocent" behaving people says more about the world than the person. Wouldn't you agree? > >>>>>> Yet, she is a perfect example of how a jIvanmukta would behave. > > Indeed, therefore every time we try to bring an example, we say "like a > five-year old child". Consider Ramakrishna's saying "O Mother! Make me a > five-year old child". > > >>>>So, essentially, my question is: does jIvanmukta have to have the > Knowledge that he is a jIvanmukta? > > Please refer to my recent posting, "Re:Apology; Re:I had a dream in 1970". > There is famous saying "a saint is a saint, till he doesn't know that he is > one". I wonder if you can expand on this saying "a saint is a saint, till he doesn't know that he is one" and also give a source reference to this saying. I have difficulty understanding "... till he doesn't know". I thought, in the intellectual frame, ignorance (of anything) is supreseded in time by knowledge. The saying "till he doesn't know" seems to put the sequence knowledge followed by ignorance, which, for intellectual knowledge, is an impossibility. > Warmest Regards, > Siddhartha > Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Respected Sadananda Ji, >>>>>>>May be you can tell us from your studies if you found discussions of adhyaasa by previous Vedantins before Shankara and Goudapaada- not that it matters but out of curiosity. The problem is that we don't find many texts of previous Vedantins and those text who contain some of Adhyasa-like portions, are not accepted to be pre-shankaran, but they are accepted as to have a shankaracharyan-influence in them, and thus post-shankaran (like many of the Upanishads). But still I would like to point out to some conclusions which I can draw out for now: 1. The Vedic saying "Indro Mayabhih pururupa Iyate" (Indra takes many forms by the help of Maya) is a clear indication to Adhyasa. Indra, in Vedic terms is the equivalent of Atman (because Atman is mainly used in the Vedas in the meaning of Prana, or middle part of the body in the Brahmanas). In this context, please dwell upon the word "Indriya" (senses), which, according to Maharshi Durga (the Great Commentator of Nirukta), means "those who transfer knowledge to Indra, i.e. Atman". 2. We don't have the teachings of Bhagavan Dakshinamurti at hand. But, if seen at the Dakshinamurti Stotram of Shankaracharya with the Vartikas of Sureshwara, it seems very clear that Bhagavan Dakshinamurti (Bhagavan Shiva's incarnation, who gave teachings of Brahmavidya in the age of 5) himself was a great Master of Adhyasa Vada. 3. We don't know, who is the author of Hastamalakiyam. If we accept the available commentary of Shankaracharya on it to be genuine (as does Shringeri Matha), then Hastamalakiyam would be a good example. 4. I don't know if the word Adhyasa did exist before Shankaracharya? Though still, seeing different definitions of the word by different schools of philosophy in the Adhyasa Bhashya, it seems like the word must have existed before Shakaracharya. Indeed, the definition is new and invented by Shankara to fit the theory. Though his concept of "anirvachaniya khyati" seems a new invention, I would really like to dwell up on it and may be I can search some indication in the scriptures, in the same way like I have found indications of the three Gunas in Rig-veda, though most of the scholars keep saying that it is an invention of Kapila. 5. Bhagavan Shankara points out very clearly in the Bashya of the 13th chapter of Gita, "he who doesn't know the Sampradaya (Guru-shishya tradition), even if he is the scholar of all the scriptures, should be treated as a fool". Thus, I'm sure that Bhagavan Himself expended all these things, which were in fact existing in the Sampradaya and which he got from his master, Shri Govinda Bhagavatpada, a great Yogi and presumably a form of Bhagavan Patanjali. Apart from this I don't know more. >>>>>>>>Your input to the discussion is very much appreciated. Please feel free to comment on the Brahmasuutra notes in terms of clarifications and corrections. Thank you very much for the invitation. Loving Regards, Siddhartha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Respected Gummuluru Murthy Ji, >>>>>I am going by the context of adhyAsa and brahmasUtrAbhAShyA-s. No ill-will is intended towards the vedA-s. Sorry for misunderstanding! In fact it is the same with me. I have a great devotion to BhagavatPada and because of some of my difficult situation, there were many difficult scriptures, which I couldn't learn from somebody, as it was difficult to get a teacher, like of Nirukta or Patanjali's Mahabhashya along with the commentary of Kaiyata and Nagesh. But thinking "better than nothing" I started to learn them by my self, every time when there came a difficult step I just prayed to BhagavatPada, and sooner or later that difficult part of the scripture became clear to me. Once or twice he even came in to my dreams and explained it to me. Thus I always keep a Murti of Him. But, still he was a person who would die for the Vedas, and thus in the entire History he was among the chosen few, to whom the Vedas revealed themselves. Like Rig-veda says, "some see the Vedas, but still are not able to perceive it; some hear the Vedas, but still don't hear it (because they don't understand it); it is only a chosen one to whom the Veda reveals Himself". Indeed, Bhagavan Shankaracharya was one of them, and every person with the Grace of the Great Acharya can become one of them. Let me tell you one thing, if we revere Bhagavan Bhashyakara so much, we should try to study the SadhanaPanchakam, and try to follow his instructions. I just keep one teaching always in my mind "vedo nityamadhiyatam" (study the Vedas everyday) and that is what I try to do every day by studying the Rig-veda, trying to understand it with an Adhyatmika Interpretation. And now it seems to me, like Upanishads are nothing more then an Adhyatmika interpretation of the Rig-veda (and many Upanishads, like Prashna and Katha etc. clearly quote Rig-veda Mantras). Yes, that is what I was referring to. That (the third kind of knowledge which you stated) is inherently there in every jIvA, irrespective of what the intellect gains of the first two types of knowledge which you referred. With this (the third kind of knowledge) being the inherent core of the jIvA, the presence or absence of other intellectual knowledge is not very relevant, I feel. >>>>I would restate my question from the previous post in the words of your post: How important are the first two kinds of knowledge? The first kind of knowledge, i.e. the knowledge of worldly things, is there with everybody. The moment you see something with your eyes, it happens. But, indeed it is not essential for self-enlightenment. On the contrary, it is an obstacle to self-realization, thus Katha says very clearly "aavrittacakshuh", he who has changed the direction of his eyes etc. Now, coming to the second state of knowledge, it seems to be impossible to realize the presence of the third sort of knowledge, without obtaining the second sort of knowledge. The motto of all moksha-shastras is to give this second type of knowledge, and if the third type of knowledge can be obtained without this sort of knowledge, all the Moksha Shastra's, including Upanishads and Gita, would loose their importance. >>>>>Can a jIvanmukta be a jIvanmukta with only the third knowledge and not the first two (intellectual) types of knowledge? The answer is not. Even, though people like Ramana Maharshi and Ramakrishna did not studied the Shastras, they had the knowledge of Unity (the second sort of knowledge), which they got from their masters. I think it is impossible to be a Jivanmukta without the second sort of knowledge. >>>>>May well be so. However, this person is not a five-year old but is in the twenties, is intelligent and well past development of subtle impressions. I understand "naive-ness" as lack of worldly tact. Exploitation by the world of such "innocent" behaving people says more about the world than the person. Wouldn't you agree? I do agree, but now it becomes very difficult for me to comment, as I don't know the person. But please don't take any offence, just for the sake of discussion, how do you think the person would behave when she is confronted with physical temptations? >>>>>>I wonder if you can expand on this saying "a saint is a saint, till he doesn't know that he is one" and also give a source reference to this saying. I have difficulty understanding "... till he doesn't know". I thought, in the intellectual frame, ignorance (of anything) is supreseded in time by knowledge. The saying "till he doesn't know" seems to put the sequence knowledge followed by ignorance, which, for intellectual knowledge, is an impossibility. You see, it is an English proverb. But, still I think, as soon as a person gets the impression that he is a saint, or he thinks "I'm a saint" (and not Brahman, I still have a quality), that means he has not yet transcended the qualities and is still a subject of ego. Apart from this, he would also realize that others are not saints, and thus he would obtain a superiority complex, which would make him fall, because where is then "sama darshana" (nirdosham hi samam brahma, sama means brahman)? Even Shankaracharya after all his scholarship was a subject of this complex, and thus came Bhgavan Shankara in the form of Chandala to remove this complex from his mind. And then see, what has happened, Shankara has bowed in to the feet of the Chandala, chandalostu dvijostu gururityesha manisha mama (manisha panchakam). Warmest Regards, Siddhartha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Dear Siddha and Gurumuluru, Great postings. Is Malachi a JivanMukta? Is Muktananda JivanMukta? Is Nityananda JivanMukta? Is Shridi Sai JivanMukta? Is Chinamayananada JivanMukta? and on and on. And why and how? Clarification will be valuable for me (sorry, I have to use my "I")! -- Vis ------------------------------ - "sidha" <sidha <advaitin> Friday, July 20, 2001 3:54 PM Re: jnAnam, moksha > Respected Gummuluru Murthy Ji, > >>>>>I am going by the context of adhyAsa and > brahmasUtrAbhAShyA-s. No ill-will is intended towards the vedA-s. > > Sorry for misunderstanding! > In fact it is the same with me. I have a great devotion to BhagavatPada and > because of some of my difficult situation, there were many difficult > scriptures, which I couldn't learn from somebody, as it was difficult to get > a teacher, like of Nirukta or Patanjali's Mahabhashya along with the > commentary of Kaiyata and Nagesh. But thinking "better than nothing" I > started to learn them by my self, every time when there came a difficult > step I just prayed to BhagavatPada, and sooner or later that difficult part > of the scripture became clear to me. Once or twice he even came in to my > dreams and explained it to me. Thus I always keep a Murti of Him. > But, still he was a person who would die for the Vedas, and thus in the > entire History he was among the chosen few, to whom the Vedas revealed > themselves. Like Rig-veda says, "some see the Vedas, but still are not able > to perceive it; some hear the Vedas, but still don't hear it (because they > don't understand it); it is only a chosen one to whom the Veda reveals > Himself". Indeed, Bhagavan Shankaracharya was one of them, and every person > with the Grace of the Great Acharya can become one of them. > Let me tell you one thing, if we revere Bhagavan Bhashyakara so much, we > should try to study the SadhanaPanchakam, and try to follow his > instructions. I just keep one teaching always in my mind "vedo > nityamadhiyatam" (study the Vedas everyday) and that is what I try to do > every day by studying the Rig-veda, trying to understand it with an > Adhyatmika Interpretation. > And now it seems to me, like Upanishads are nothing more then an Adhyatmika > interpretation of the Rig-veda (and many Upanishads, like Prashna and Katha > etc. clearly quote Rig-veda Mantras). > > Yes, that is what I was referring to. That (the third kind of knowledge > which you stated) is inherently there in every jIvA, irrespective of > what the intellect gains of the first two types of knowledge which you > referred. With this (the third kind of knowledge) being the inherent > core of the jIvA, the presence or absence of other intellectual > knowledge is not very relevant, I feel. > > >>>>I would restate my question from the previous post in the words of > your post: How important are the first two kinds of knowledge? > > The first kind of knowledge, i.e. the knowledge of worldly things, is there > with everybody. The moment you see something with your eyes, it happens. > But, indeed it is not essential for self-enlightenment. On the contrary, it > is an obstacle to self-realization, thus Katha says very clearly > "aavrittacakshuh", he who has changed the direction of his eyes etc. > Now, coming to the second state of knowledge, it seems to be impossible to > realize the presence of the third sort of knowledge, without obtaining the > second sort of knowledge. The motto of all moksha-shastras is to give this > second type of knowledge, and if the third type of knowledge can be obtained > without this sort of knowledge, all the Moksha Shastra's, including > Upanishads and Gita, would loose their importance. > > >>>>>Can a jIvanmukta be a jIvanmukta with only the third knowledge > and not the first two (intellectual) types of knowledge? > > The answer is not. Even, though people like Ramana Maharshi and Ramakrishna > did not studied the Shastras, they had the knowledge of Unity (the second > sort of knowledge), which they got from their masters. I think it is > impossible to be a Jivanmukta without the second sort of knowledge. > > >>>>>May well be so. However, this person is not a five-year old but is > in the twenties, is intelligent and well past development of subtle > impressions. I understand "naive-ness" as lack of worldly tact. > Exploitation by the world of such "innocent" behaving people says > more about the world than the person. Wouldn't you agree? > > I do agree, but now it becomes very difficult for me to comment, as I don't > know the person. But please don't take any offence, just for the sake of > discussion, how do you think the person would behave when she is confronted > with physical temptations? > > >>>>>>I wonder if you can expand on this saying "a saint is a saint, till > he > doesn't know that he is one" and also give a source reference to this > saying. I have difficulty understanding "... till he doesn't know". > I thought, in the intellectual frame, ignorance (of anything) is > supreseded in time by knowledge. The saying "till he doesn't know" > seems to put the sequence knowledge followed by ignorance, which, > for intellectual knowledge, is an impossibility. > > You see, it is an English proverb. But, still I think, as soon as a person > gets the impression that he is a saint, or he thinks "I'm a saint" (and not > Brahman, I still have a quality), that means he has not yet transcended the > qualities and is still a subject of ego. Apart from this, he would also > realize that others are not saints, and thus he would obtain a superiority > complex, which would make him fall, because where is then "sama darshana" > (nirdosham hi samam brahma, sama means brahman)? > Even Shankaracharya after all his scholarship was a subject of this complex, > and thus came Bhgavan Shankara in the form of Chandala to remove this > complex from his mind. And then see, what has happened, Shankara has bowed > in to the feet of the Chandala, chandalostu dvijostu gururityesha manisha > mama (manisha panchakam). > Warmest Regards, > Siddhartha > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Hi again! I could not contain myself! Can any Bhakta be a JivanMukta? -- Vis - "sidha" <sidha <advaitin> Friday, July 20, 2001 3:54 PM Re: jnAnam, moksha > Respected Gummuluru Murthy Ji, > >>>>>I am going by the context of adhyAsa and > brahmasUtrAbhAShyA-s. No ill-will is intended towards the vedA-s. > > Sorry for misunderstanding! > In fact it is the same with me. I have a great devotion to BhagavatPada and > because of some of my difficult situation, there were many difficult > scriptures, which I couldn't learn from somebody, as it was difficult to get > a teacher, like of Nirukta or Patanjali's Mahabhashya along with the > commentary of Kaiyata and Nagesh. But thinking "better than nothing" I > started to learn them by my self, every time when there came a difficult > step I just prayed to BhagavatPada, and sooner or later that difficult part > of the scripture became clear to me. Once or twice he even came in to my > dreams and explained it to me. Thus I always keep a Murti of Him. > But, still he was a person who would die for the Vedas, and thus in the > entire History he was among the chosen few, to whom the Vedas revealed > themselves. Like Rig-veda says, "some see the Vedas, but still are not able > to perceive it; some hear the Vedas, but still don't hear it (because they > don't understand it); it is only a chosen one to whom the Veda reveals > Himself". Indeed, Bhagavan Shankaracharya was one of them, and every person > with the Grace of the Great Acharya can become one of them. > Let me tell you one thing, if we revere Bhagavan Bhashyakara so much, we > should try to study the SadhanaPanchakam, and try to follow his > instructions. I just keep one teaching always in my mind "vedo > nityamadhiyatam" (study the Vedas everyday) and that is what I try to do > every day by studying the Rig-veda, trying to understand it with an > Adhyatmika Interpretation. > And now it seems to me, like Upanishads are nothing more then an Adhyatmika > interpretation of the Rig-veda (and many Upanishads, like Prashna and Katha > etc. clearly quote Rig-veda Mantras). > > Yes, that is what I was referring to. That (the third kind of knowledge > which you stated) is inherently there in every jIvA, irrespective of > what the intellect gains of the first two types of knowledge which you > referred. With this (the third kind of knowledge) being the inherent > core of the jIvA, the presence or absence of other intellectual > knowledge is not very relevant, I feel. > > >>>>I would restate my question from the previous post in the words of > your post: How important are the first two kinds of knowledge? > > The first kind of knowledge, i.e. the knowledge of worldly things, is there > with everybody. The moment you see something with your eyes, it happens. > But, indeed it is not essential for self-enlightenment. On the contrary, it > is an obstacle to self-realization, thus Katha says very clearly > "aavrittacakshuh", he who has changed the direction of his eyes etc. > Now, coming to the second state of knowledge, it seems to be impossible to > realize the presence of the third sort of knowledge, without obtaining the > second sort of knowledge. The motto of all moksha-shastras is to give this > second type of knowledge, and if the third type of knowledge can be obtained > without this sort of knowledge, all the Moksha Shastra's, including > Upanishads and Gita, would loose their importance. > > >>>>>Can a jIvanmukta be a jIvanmukta with only the third knowledge > and not the first two (intellectual) types of knowledge? > > The answer is not. Even, though people like Ramana Maharshi and Ramakrishna > did not studied the Shastras, they had the knowledge of Unity (the second > sort of knowledge), which they got from their masters. I think it is > impossible to be a Jivanmukta without the second sort of knowledge. > > >>>>>May well be so. However, this person is not a five-year old but is > in the twenties, is intelligent and well past development of subtle > impressions. I understand "naive-ness" as lack of worldly tact. > Exploitation by the world of such "innocent" behaving people says > more about the world than the person. Wouldn't you agree? > > I do agree, but now it becomes very difficult for me to comment, as I don't > know the person. But please don't take any offence, just for the sake of > discussion, how do you think the person would behave when she is confronted > with physical temptations? > > >>>>>>I wonder if you can expand on this saying "a saint is a saint, till > he > doesn't know that he is one" and also give a source reference to this > saying. I have difficulty understanding "... till he doesn't know". > I thought, in the intellectual frame, ignorance (of anything) is > supreseded in time by knowledge. The saying "till he doesn't know" > seems to put the sequence knowledge followed by ignorance, which, > for intellectual knowledge, is an impossibility. > > You see, it is an English proverb. But, still I think, as soon as a person > gets the impression that he is a saint, or he thinks "I'm a saint" (and not > Brahman, I still have a quality), that means he has not yet transcended the > qualities and is still a subject of ego. Apart from this, he would also > realize that others are not saints, and thus he would obtain a superiority > complex, which would make him fall, because where is then "sama darshana" > (nirdosham hi samam brahma, sama means brahman)? > Even Shankaracharya after all his scholarship was a subject of this complex, > and thus came Bhgavan Shankara in the form of Chandala to remove this > complex from his mind. And then see, what has happened, Shankara has bowed > in to the feet of the Chandala, chandalostu dvijostu gururityesha manisha > mama (manisha panchakam). > Warmest Regards, > Siddhartha > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 The System of obtaining Immortality (freeing from birth and death) according to The Most Ancient Scripture and The Holy Book of Vedic Sanatana Dharma, The Rig-veda Respected Gummuluru Murty Ji, Sadandanda Ji and Friends, In Rig-veda, this Mantra was revealed by the Supreme Purusha, to Bhagavan Vavri Aatreya, juhure vicintayanto animiSaM nR^imNaM pAnti. A dR^iDhAM puraM vivishuH (4-1-11-2) Prostrations to Bhagavan Vavri Atreya, who was chosen by the Almighty Lord to convey Immortal Truths to us. God says, "While realizing (the true significance of) Agni ( = Fire, Sun, Light) doing Yajnas (Fire Sacrifices), seers preserved their nrimna (Splendour or Divine Wealth) vigilantly. And then they entered the imperishable abode, (thus you all ought to do the same)". The Physical Light is just a manifestation of the Supreme God. Indeed, a direct and a very accurate manifestation, as it possesses most of the qualities of Brahman, more than any other manifestation. It has the ability to burn bad things and purify an object, it has the ability to illuminate and dispel darkness; it has endless abilities of creation on physical, mental and spiritual level. Thus, light has been accepted as a direct symbol to adore The Supreme Lord. Therefore, Agni here means "Atman, Brahman". Only in the light of this theory we can understand the various statements of the Brahmana's saying "Agni is AtmanAgni is Brahman" etc. (Shatapatha Brahmana 3-2-2-7; 6-6-3-15; 6-7-1-20; 7-3-1-2; 7-4-1-25; 10-4-1-5; 14-3-2-5; Taittiriya Brahmana 3-9-16-3) and of Bhagavan Yaska, where he clearly mentions that Agni is Atman. Yajnas purify the internal organs of a person. When his internal organs (mind, intellect etc.) are purified by this process of Aatma Yajana, he realizes what the fire, existing before him, is in its true form. Indeed, by doing these Fire Sacrifices, the great seers preserved their Divine Wealth, i.e. the Supreme Knowledge of the Vedas and the Divine Splendour in their faces. And in the end, they entered the imperishable abode, the Pada (abode) of Vishnu, in the terms of Rig-veda (and Katha Upanishad). Rig-veda is very clear that entering in to the abode of Vishnu doesn't happen after death, but even in this very life. This is what is meant by JivanMukti, in Vedic Terms. You must have observed, that again everything depends on Realization (or the second sort of knowledge, according to my previous mails). Loving Regards, Siddhartha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 Dear Vishvanathan Ji, JivanMukti is such a concealed state of realization, that it becomes partly impossible to judge somebody different from our own self. See, even Shankaracharya and Krishna were not sure if Janaka etc. were JivanMuktas or not (in the 3rd chapter of Gita). Therefore, I think our question should be "Am I Jivanmukta?" if not, then "why?" and "how can I become one?" should be the questions. Would it really help much to know if Chinmayananda or somebody else was JivanMukta or not. If they were, then they were for their own sake, we have to cook and eat our rice by ourselves. If they were not, its their loss, we can still become one. Loving Regards, Siddhartha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 Bhakti and Jnana, according to the scriptures Dear Vishwanathan Ji, Krishna is very clear in saying "he knows me by the help of Bhakti" (bhaktya mam abhijanati) in the 18th chapter. Realization (knowledge of the Brahman) can only come from Bhakti. Rig-veda also tells us, "by praying one sees (realizes) the supreme abode of light" (padam devasya namasA vyantaH 4-4-35-4). Upanishads tell us, "To him, He who devotion towards God and the master, all these things (described in the Upanishads) are revealed by the great saints" (yasya deve parA bhaktiH yathA deve tathA gurau. tasyaite kathitA hyarthA prakAshante mahAtmanaH). Madhusudana Saraswati, a great Vedantin and Bhakta and indeed a Jivanmukta, says in his commentary of Gita, "Bhakti is of three sorts, mixed with Karma, pure and mixed with knowledge; only by these three type of Bhaktis, when practiced one by one, all the obstacles vanish". While describing the God-realized Saint, he says, "He is the Greatest among those who speak about Brahman, he transcends all the Gunas, his mind and intellect are concurred, and he is a great DEVOTEE of Vishnu, he transcends all the Varnas and Ashramas, he is Jivanmukta". He points out very clearly, that in all states of the process and realization Bhakti is essential, he says "without Bhakti, thanks to the endless obstacles, everything is impossible". Thus, Bhakti is there on the first step and remains after the last step is obtained and even when all the scriptures loose their worthiness and become worthless for that person. Please dwell upon the word "ekabhakti" (he who has one-pointed devotion) of Shri Krishna, while describing Jnani, in the 7th chapter (verse 17). The highest state of Realization "nirvikalpa samadhi" is of three sorts, 1. from which one awakens by himself, 2. from which one only awakes when awaken by somebody else, 3. from which one never awakes. Bhakti is the only means to go from one state to the next and to remain in the last one, the third. There is no Jnana without Bhakti and no Moksha without Jnana. This is the essence of all Scriptures. Those are stupid who have problems with Bhkati and Jnana, and don't know the least of the scriptures, and if they know some of it, even then they should be ignored as fools. Loving Regards, Siddhartha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 Dear Sidha, Your reply postings to my questions are very clear. It was so disappointing to see so many many scholarly words on Jnana that gave the impression that Advaitins give second (or no) place to Bhakti. The incident of Totapuri and Ramakrishna was the one that came to my mind when I was reading these posts! My question regarding whether someone in specific is JivanMukta was to give examples that make the explanations clear. Just as the rope and snake example is used ad infinitum to explain the distortions caused by the mind, examples of JivanMuktas could make the point extremely clear. The idea was not to mimic what any of the JivanMuktas (if they were) did and dupe ourselves that we are JivanMuktas, but just to clarify the ever-confused mind and its avidya. Also, equally important, was to wonder, understand (if it is so) and accept that JivanMuktas come in all colors with or without the apparent (to the mind) criteria of the definition -- that is why Shridi Sai and Ammachi were included in my questions. The point is Jnana without Bhakti is or appears extremely dry and quite unattractive and sometimes quite frightening! Thanks once again. -- Vis ------ - "sidha" <sidha <advaitin> Saturday, July 21, 2001 1:16 AM Re: jnAnam, moksha > Dear Vishvanathan Ji, > JivanMukti is such a concealed state of realization, that it becomes partly > impossible to judge somebody different from our own self. See, even > Shankaracharya and Krishna were not sure if Janaka etc. were JivanMuktas or > not (in the 3rd chapter of Gita). Therefore, I think our question should be > "Am I Jivanmukta?" if not, then "why?" and "how can I become one?" should be > the questions. > Would it really help much to know if Chinmayananda or somebody else was > JivanMukta or not. If they were, then they were for their own sake, we have > to cook and eat our rice by ourselves. If they were not, its their loss, we > can still become one. > Loving Regards, > Siddhartha > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 Hi! Sorry for the error. It is not Malachi; I meant Ammachi. -- Vis - "R. Viswanathan" <drvis <advaitin> Friday, July 20, 2001 9:08 PM Re: jnAnam, moksha > Dear Siddha and Gurumuluru, > Great postings. > Is Malachi a JivanMukta? > Is Muktananda JivanMukta? > Is Nityananda JivanMukta? > Is Shridi Sai JivanMukta? > Is Chinamayananada JivanMukta? > and on and on. > And why and how? > Clarification will be valuable for me (sorry, I have to use my "I")! > -- Vis > ------------------------------ > - > "sidha" <sidha > <advaitin> > Friday, July 20, 2001 3:54 PM > Re: jnAnam, moksha > > > > Respected Gummuluru Murthy Ji, > > >>>>>I am going by the context of adhyAsa and > > brahmasUtrAbhAShyA-s. No ill-will is intended towards the vedA-s. > > > > Sorry for misunderstanding! > > In fact it is the same with me. I have a great devotion to BhagavatPada > and > > because of some of my difficult situation, there were many difficult > > scriptures, which I couldn't learn from somebody, as it was difficult to > get > > a teacher, like of Nirukta or Patanjali's Mahabhashya along with the > > commentary of Kaiyata and Nagesh. But thinking "better than nothing" I > > started to learn them by my self, every time when there came a difficult > > step I just prayed to BhagavatPada, and sooner or later that difficult > part > > of the scripture became clear to me. Once or twice he even came in to my > > dreams and explained it to me. Thus I always keep a Murti of Him. > > But, still he was a person who would die for the Vedas, and thus in the > > entire History he was among the chosen few, to whom the Vedas revealed > > themselves. Like Rig-veda says, "some see the Vedas, but still are not > able > > to perceive it; some hear the Vedas, but still don't hear it (because they > > don't understand it); it is only a chosen one to whom the Veda reveals > > Himself". Indeed, Bhagavan Shankaracharya was one of them, and every > person > > with the Grace of the Great Acharya can become one of them. > > Let me tell you one thing, if we revere Bhagavan Bhashyakara so much, we > > should try to study the SadhanaPanchakam, and try to follow his > > instructions. I just keep one teaching always in my mind "vedo > > nityamadhiyatam" (study the Vedas everyday) and that is what I try to do > > every day by studying the Rig-veda, trying to understand it with an > > Adhyatmika Interpretation. > > And now it seems to me, like Upanishads are nothing more then an > Adhyatmika > > interpretation of the Rig-veda (and many Upanishads, like Prashna and > Katha > > etc. clearly quote Rig-veda Mantras). > > > > Yes, that is what I was referring to. That (the third kind of knowledge > > which you stated) is inherently there in every jIvA, irrespective of > > what the intellect gains of the first two types of knowledge which you > > referred. With this (the third kind of knowledge) being the inherent > > core of the jIvA, the presence or absence of other intellectual > > knowledge is not very relevant, I feel. > > > > >>>>I would restate my question from the previous post in the words of > > your post: How important are the first two kinds of knowledge? > > > > The first kind of knowledge, i.e. the knowledge of worldly things, is > there > > with everybody. The moment you see something with your eyes, it happens. > > But, indeed it is not essential for self-enlightenment. On the contrary, > it > > is an obstacle to self-realization, thus Katha says very clearly > > "aavrittacakshuh", he who has changed the direction of his eyes etc. > > Now, coming to the second state of knowledge, it seems to be impossible to > > realize the presence of the third sort of knowledge, without obtaining the > > second sort of knowledge. The motto of all moksha-shastras is to give this > > second type of knowledge, and if the third type of knowledge can be > obtained > > without this sort of knowledge, all the Moksha Shastra's, including > > Upanishads and Gita, would loose their importance. > > > > >>>>>Can a jIvanmukta be a jIvanmukta with only the third knowledge > > and not the first two (intellectual) types of knowledge? > > > > The answer is not. Even, though people like Ramana Maharshi and > Ramakrishna > > did not studied the Shastras, they had the knowledge of Unity (the second > > sort of knowledge), which they got from their masters. I think it is > > impossible to be a Jivanmukta without the second sort of knowledge. > > > > >>>>>May well be so. However, this person is not a five-year old but is > > in the twenties, is intelligent and well past development of subtle > > impressions. I understand "naive-ness" as lack of worldly tact. > > Exploitation by the world of such "innocent" behaving people says > > more about the world than the person. Wouldn't you agree? > > > > I do agree, but now it becomes very difficult for me to comment, as I > don't > > know the person. But please don't take any offence, just for the sake of > > discussion, how do you think the person would behave when she is > confronted > > with physical temptations? > > > > >>>>>>I wonder if you can expand on this saying "a saint is a saint, till > > he > > doesn't know that he is one" and also give a source reference to this > > saying. I have difficulty understanding "... till he doesn't know". > > I thought, in the intellectual frame, ignorance (of anything) is > > supreseded in time by knowledge. The saying "till he doesn't know" > > seems to put the sequence knowledge followed by ignorance, which, > > for intellectual knowledge, is an impossibility. > > > > You see, it is an English proverb. But, still I think, as soon as a person > > gets the impression that he is a saint, or he thinks "I'm a saint" (and > not > > Brahman, I still have a quality), that means he has not yet transcended > the > > qualities and is still a subject of ego. Apart from this, he would also > > realize that others are not saints, and thus he would obtain a superiority > > complex, which would make him fall, because where is then "sama darshana" > > (nirdosham hi samam brahma, sama means brahman)? > > Even Shankaracharya after all his scholarship was a subject of this > complex, > > and thus came Bhgavan Shankara in the form of Chandala to remove this > > complex from his mind. And then see, what has happened, Shankara has bowed > > in to the feet of the Chandala, chandalostu dvijostu gururityesha manisha > > mama (manisha panchakam). > > Warmest Regards, > > Siddhartha > > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 Dear Gurumurhty and Sdananda, In this connection a clarification will be welcome. I have heard the four stages: "I am Brahman, You are Brahman, It is Brahman, and All are Brahman". Which comes first in this sequence? And how the ego plays a part to ruin it? Also the minute "I" know "I am Brahman", the ego is burnt and the rest follow automatically. Is it not? -- Vis -------------------------- - "Gummuluru Murthy" <gmurthy <advaitin> Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:39 AM Re: jnAnam, moksha > > > namaste shri Sadananda garu, > > Thanks for your excellent clarification. I bow to you for your > patience, knowledge and willingness to share that knowledge > with all. > > Now, you say, even if a person behaves like what we understand > jivanmukta behaves, without that jnAnam (that I am brahman), > there is and will always be that seed of ignorance which will > sprout sometime as I am the doer. > > Does that not pre-suppose all are ignorant unless they attain > jnAnam, while I understand the reverse is true that the pure > pristine brahman is our natural state unless we are covered > by ignorance? > > Regards > Gummuluru Murthy > - Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2001 Report Share Posted July 23, 2001 >Dear Gurumurhty and Sdananda, >In this connection a clarification will be welcome. >I have heard the four stages: "I am Brahman, You are Brahman, It is Brahman, >and All are Brahman". >Which comes first in this sequence? And how the ego plays a part to ruin it? >Also the minute "I" know "I am Brahman", the ego is burnt and the rest >follow automatically. Is it not? >-- Vis Shree viswvanathan As I understand, There are no stages in self-realization. Realization of 'I am Brahaman' eliminates any other notions that there is you and any other existence separate from I. Brahman, by the very definition of the word - includes all. In Geeta Lord says: Sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutanicha aatmani - I am in all beings and all beings are in me. Same is stated from bhakti point - yo mam pasyati sarvatra sarvancha mayi pasyati - who sees me everywhere and everything in me. Stages one can talk about only in terms of vyavyahhara or in the purification of the mind through karma. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2001 Report Share Posted July 23, 2001 Stages one can talk about only in terms of vyavyahhara or in the purification of the mind through karma. Hari Om! Sadananda > Hare Krishna > Then what about krama mukti i.e sAlokya, sAyujya etc.etc. prabhuji?? you mean to say these are all different stages in mental purification, pls. clarify. > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2001 Report Share Posted July 23, 2001 Dear Sadananda Prabhuji, Hare Krishna, I know I am mixing up the things here (both dvaita & advaita's perspective about realisation) but I wanted to know whether this can be reconciled & arrive at an amicable solution. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar (Embedded bhaskar.yr image moved 07/23/2001 05:19 PM to file: pic05123.pcx) Please respond to advaitin advaitin cc: (bcc: Bhaskar YR/BAN/INABB/ABB) Re: jnAnam, moksha Security Level:? Internal Stages one can talk about only in terms of vyavyahhara or in the purification of the mind through karma. Hari Om! Sadananda > Hare Krishna > Then what about krama mukti i.e sAlokya, sAyujya etc.etc. prabhuji?? you mean to say these are all different stages in mental purification, pls. clarify. > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2001 Report Share Posted July 23, 2001 >Stages one can talk about only in terms of vyavyahhara or in the >purification of the mind through karma. > >Hari Om! >Sadananda > >> Hare Krishna >> Then what about krama mukti i.e sAlokya, sAyujya etc.etc. prabhuji?? you >mean to say these are all different stages in mental purification, pls. >clarify. >> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > > bhaskar > Bhaskarji - Pranaams. Those are the concepts in the Bhakti traditions that primarily include VishishhTadvaita and Dvaita. As long as there is a seer-seen distinctions there is a duality. I am brahman is the understanding of a unitary experience. In that vary understanding all duality or all concepts of reality of the duality fall. There is no karma mukti - as is being discussed in the last notes on BSB. karma is limited and result will also be limited and mukti is freedom from limitation. One can have liberation from karma or should I say the notion that I am doer but not liberation via karma. Hope my statements are clear. Upaasana is considered as a means in non-adivaitc tradition - it is not considered as a direct means but means for surrenderance at the feet of the Lord and one attains aatmasaakskhaat kaaram - realization of the nature of the reality by oneself, not as a direct result of uppasana but by the grace of the Lord, that is, when is pleased! - Thus it is the culmination of Bhakti but moksha here does not depend on upaasaka, as doer but on the Lord who out of compassion reveals Himself. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2001 Report Share Posted July 23, 2001 Upaasana is considered as a means in non-adivaitc tradition - it is not considered as a direct means but means for surrenderance at the feet of the Lord and one attains aatmasaakskhaat kaaram - realization of the nature of the reality by oneself, not as a direct result of uppasana but by the grace of the Lord, that is, when is pleased! - Thus it is the culmination of Bhakti but moksha here does not depend on upaasaka, as doer but on the Lord who out of compassion reveals Himself. > Pranaam Prabhuji, Hare krishna, > Your first sentence in the above para, i am not able to get it correctly coz. in Shringeri Matt, they worship Chandra Mouleshwara, Sri Sharada Matha & Sri Chakra ( I donot know about other three matts, but I heard that there also swamijis of shankar matt performing deity worship) If, upsana is not considered as a direct means in advaitic tradition why they are entertaining this deity worship?? Where is the place for bhakti in advaita then?? Hope I am not stretching this too further. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2001 Report Share Posted July 23, 2001 Respected Sadananda Ji, >>>>>>There is no karma mukti - as is being discussed in the last notes on BSB. karma is limited and result will also be limited and mukti is freedom from limitation. One can have liberation from karma or should I say the notion that I am doer but not liberation via karma. Hope my statements are clear. I also have never heard anything about "Karma Mukti". I think Bhaskar ji meant "krama mukti". So it is a misunderstanding. Regards, Siddhartha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2001 Report Share Posted July 23, 2001 On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, R. Viswanathan wrote: > Dear Siddha and Gurumuluru, > Great postings. > Is Malachi a JivanMukta? > Is Muktananda JivanMukta? > Is Nityananda JivanMukta? > Is Shridi Sai JivanMukta? > Is Chinamayananada JivanMukta? > and on and on. > And why and how? > Clarification will be valuable for me (sorry, I have to use my "I")! > -- Vis > ------------------------------ namaste shri Viswanathan-ji, We cannot really say who is a jIvanmukta and who is not. shri shankara says in VivekacUDAmaNi (verses 474 and 475) svasy'AvidyA-bandha-sambandha-mokshAt satyajnAn'Ananda-rUpAtma-labdhau shAstraM yuktir deshikoktiH pramANaM c'Antas-siddhA sv'AnubhUtiH pramANam.h 474 Whether you are free from your ignorance or not, you alone know. To know one's own freedom from the bondage that comes from contact with ignorance and the attainment of the state of pure existence, knowledge, and bliss, the scriptures, reason, and the words of the guru are the proofs. But one's own conviction felt within is the greatest of all. bandho mokshAshca tr^iptishca cintA'Arogya-kshudAdayaH sven'aiva vedyA yaj-jnAnam pareshAm AnumAnikam.h 475 Bondage or freedom, attainment or otherwise, anxiety or peace, pleasure or pain - one knows these in one's own self. Others can only guess. shri shankara also says in vivekacUDAmaNi at other places, follow, observe how a jIvanmukta behaves. That is a tremendous source of knowledge. I agree with the implied meaning of your question which I take it as: the *intellectual* knowledge is not a necessary requisite for a jIvanmukta. I am not convinced that a jIvanmukta has to know that he is a jIvanmukta for Him to be a jIvanmukta. In actuality, I think that knowledge is a burden to Him. Secondly, where is that knowledge carried if the intellect and the mind are all burnt and dissipated? Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2001 Report Share Posted July 24, 2001 > > >> Pranaam Prabhuji, Hare krishna, >> Your first sentence in the above para, i am not able to get it correctly >coz. in Shringeri Matt, they worship Chandra Mouleshwara, Sri Sharada Matha >& Sri Chakra ( I donot know about other three matts, but I heard that there >also swamijis of shankar matt performing deity worship) If, upsana is not >considered as a direct means in advaitic tradition why they are >entertaining this deity worship?? Where is the place for bhakti in advaita >then?? Hope I am not stretching this too further. > >Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! Upaasana is manasika vR^itti or action at the mind level. Advaita is not against karma or bhakti as a yogo. Bhagavaaan Shankara has composed many sloka-s in prayer to different gods. Karma and upaasana are not for moksha but for purification of the mind - to gain the four fold qualifications required for the inquiry of Brahman. Please study if you can the explanation of the atha and athaH in the Brahmasuutra notes which discusses the qualification of the student of Brahma vidya. Also see the last post related to suutra 4 on the role of upaasanaa in relation to j~naana. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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