wake-up and dream- states

July 25, 2001

namaste.

A human goes through the three states of wake-up, dream-

and deep-sleep. The impressions from the wake-up state are

carried on to the dream state and from the dream-state to

the wake-up state. In deep-sleep, none of the impressions

are carried.

The dream-state world evolves out of the remanence of the

impressions during the wake-up state. If our mind is occupied

by something during the wake-up state, it is likely, the same

thought manifests itself as a dream-world story. The subtle body

of the dream state does not carry the puNya or pApa of the wake-up

world's subtle body. If we kill someone in our dream, the pApA

associated with it will not carry forward to the wake-up state.

Similarly, if we have dreamt we are blessed by our paramaguru,

the subtle body will not carry that puNya on to the wake-up state.

Although this is contrary to the popular belief that a good dream

is a good omen and a bad dream is a bad omen, it has to be

recognized both (good and bad) are dreams and their carry-over

effect in terms of karma from one state to the other is nil.

Another way to say this is: a sumptuous dinner of the wake-up

world will not satisfy the hunger of the dream world or having

a bellyful of water in the dream world will not quench the thirst

of the wake-up world.

But, at the same time, both (dream-state and wake-up state) are

not independent. Both affect the same embodied jIvA. Yet, the

karma of one state is not carried into the other and also, the

effects of these two states are not carried into the deep-sleep

state. So, in effect then, karma does not cross the boundary

from one state to the other.

All this leads to the famous statements by King Janaka in

the AShTAvakrasamhitA, I believe.

The above analysis also leads to the following questions:

1. Then where is karma? How is it carried forward? Does that

karma that we talk of then really belong to the wake-up

state jIvA?

2. We were brought up that a good dream is a good omen and a

bad dream is bad. Is it really? If not for the fact that

a 'bad' dream may probably be the after-effect of the

pent-up anxiety of the wake-up state (the same can be said

of the good dream too), what is wrong with a 'bad' dream?

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

-

July 25, 2001

How are the prophetic dreams accounted for when they directly cause one to act

in the wake-up

state?

Gummuluru Murthy wrote:

> But, at the same time, both (dream-state and wake-up state) are

> not independent. Both affect the same embodied jIvA. Yet, the

> karma of one state is not carried into the other and also, the

> effects of these two states are not carried into the deep-sleep

> state. So, in effect then, karma does not cross the boundary

> from one state to the other.

>

July 30, 2001

On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Gasusima wrote:

> How are the prophetic dreams accounted for when they directly cause one to act

in the wake-up

> state?

>

> Gummuluru Murthy wrote:

>

> > But, at the same time, both (dream-state and wake-up state) are

> > not independent. Both affect the same embodied jIvA. Yet, the

> > karma of one state is not carried into the other and also, the

> > effects of these two states are not carried into the deep-sleep

> > state. So, in effect then, karma does not cross the boundary

> > from one state to the other.

> >

namaste shri Gasusima-ji,

I meant to respond to your post earlier but somehow, inadvertantly,

that was put aside. My apologies for the late picking up of the

thread.

You say how about prophetic dreams. Even there, as I understand,

karma-phala (the vAsanA-s acquired) will not and cannot transcend

the state. There may be immediate and fleeting transcending, for

example, the perspiration felt in the wake-up state soon after

seeing a dream-tiger in the dream state. I am talking of more-lasting

karma-phala (like the sin associated with a murder committed in the

dream or a puNya associated with visiting KAshi in a dream). That is,

the vAsanA-s acquired in the dream-state are for the subtle-body of

the dream-state only and the vAsanA-s acquired in the wake-up state

are for the subtle body of the wake-up state only. I am not saying

the subtle body is different in the two states, but I am saying the

karma-phala of one state stays in that state only. Others may not

agree with this assessment, but I would like to see a solid basis

or reference for thinking contrary.

If that (the inability of karma-phala to transcend or conduit

through a different state) were so, I am saying:

The general concept in vyavahArika is: the subtle body, when it

discards the physical body (at the time of physical death), carries

forward its karma-phala, and according to its karma-phala, acquires

a new physical body. My question is: what karma-phala are we talking

about? Is it the karma-phala of the wake-up state? If so why that

importance to the wake-up state? If karma-phala does not transcend

a state (from wake-to dream or deep-sleep), how would it transcend

the discarding of a physical body? I am not saying I doubt the

validity of the karma theory in vyavahArika, but seeking

clarification on some doubts how it functions.

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

----

July 30, 2001

Namaste Sri Murthyji,

You raise an interesting question about acquiring and working out karmas in

different states of consciousness. Here is another perspective for your

consideration, although it does not address all the points you make. I will

pass this on to as well.

Sages tell us that karmas of different states of consciousness can indeed

overlap. Therefore it may be possible to acquire the karma in one state and

work it out in another state of consciousness. Sri Ramana helping his mother

attain Moksha by making her go through future experiences (which were stored

in her subtle body) at her passing away is an example of exhausting karmas

acquired in one state in a different and more subtle state.

Yogic psychology indicates that karmas acquired in gross states can be

worked out or affected in more subtle states. This is why the Shastras

emphasize making the mind or the intellect subtle. Divine visions and

prophetic dreams spring up from subtler levels of consciousness. The Self

on which all subtle and gross states depend, when realized makes all karmas

moot.

Sri Ramana used to say that if a husband has 3 wives and the husband dies,

all the wives become widows simultaneously. Similarly, upon

Self-Realization, all three types of karmas acquired in gross or subtle

states become undermined simultaneously.

The general practical rule of thumb that can be suggested in vyavahArika (in

the field of relativity) based on experience and testimony of yogis is that

karma acquired in grosser states can be worked out to some extent or a large

extent in subtle states.

Namaste and love to all

Harsha

Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy]

Monday, July 30, 2001 9:23 AM

advaitin

Re: wake-up and dream- states

On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Gasusima wrote:

> How are the prophetic dreams accounted for when they directly cause one to

act in the wake-up