A humble question

[Guest guest]

Respected Divinities,

 

I thank the Moderators and All the members for having accepted me to

this group.Here is my first humble question:-

 

In the BhagavadGita Ch.15 Sloka-7 The Lord says:-

 

Mamaivamsho Jiva loke Jiva bhutah sanatanah

Manah sastanindriyani prakrutisthani karshati.

 

Here Sri Krishna is saying that Jiva is His own parts (there by

implying not same as Him) and they are eternal, with mind and the six

senses they struggle situated in prakruthi.

 

Kindly enlighten me as to how Sri AdiSankara interprets this based on

Advaita.

 

Iti Sri Acharya dasanudasa:

Suresh Srinivasamurthy.

[Guest guest]

--- sureshsmr wrote:

> Respected Divinities,

>

> I thank the Moderators and All the members for

> having accepted me to

> this group.Here is my first humble question:-

>

> In the BhagavadGita Ch.15 Sloka-7 The Lord says:-

>

> Mamaivamsho Jiva loke Jiva bhutah sanatanah

> Manah sastanindriyani prakrutisthani karshati.

>

> Here Sri Krishna is saying that Jiva is His own

> parts (there by

> implying not same as Him) and they are eternal, with

> mind and the six

> senses they struggle situated in prakruthi.

>

> Kindly enlighten me as to how Sri AdiSankara

> interprets this based on

> Advaita.

>

> Iti Sri Acharya dasanudasa:

> Suresh Srinivasamurthy.

---------------------

Dear shri Suresh,

 

Adi Shankara states also thus: 'Jeevo Brahmaiva naa

paraha'. meaning that Jiva is {not only a part (Amsha)

of Brahman but is} fully Brahman Itself.

Again Adi Shankara in his 'Laghu Vakyavritti'

says:"Jivo kalpitasyaat Brahmaikam Nirvikalpakam .

Aham Brahmeti Vakyena ayam artho abhidheeyate".Meaning

Jiva is imaginary whereas Brahman cannot be imagined

as It is Nirvikalpa.The Acharya states here that his

treatise 'Laghu Vakyavritti' is all about the Maha

Vakya,"'Aham Brahmaasmi". Further, the Acharya

continues to explain thus:

"Nashte purva vikalpe tu yaavadanyasya nodayah,

Nirvikalpaka Chaitanyam thaavad spashtha vibhaasate"

Meaning, when a previous thought is vanished and

before the next thought manifests itself in our

Mind,the Nirvikalpaka Chaitanyam (which is nothing but

Pure Conciousness and which is in fact the True Self

-Brahman) shines clearly at that time!

 

In another context Adi Shankara states :

If I cut off my hand I still remain with the rest of

the body parts. Again if I cut off a leg,and so on

keep cutting off all the parts of 'My' so called body,

I still remain as I am! So 'I' am different from 'My'

Body! I am so very confident that My body is 'Me'. The

Acharya states:

"Dehaatma dheevad Brahmaatmadhee dhardye krita

krityayaa

Yadaa tadaayam mriyataam Muktosao naatra samshayaha"

Meaning,When, just as you are so confident that you

are this body,you become as confident that you are

Brahman,you will be liberate\\\

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Swami Narayan,

 

One question that continuously puzzels me is that if the Jiva is

Brahman himself then how come I got entangled in Karma?

It is also very much obvious that without doing Tapas (Sadhana)

Brahma jnana is not possible.So If I am Brahman then why should I do

Tapas? If this Jagat is unreal then All my Tapas, Shastras, Guru

etc., becomes meaningless and unreal!!

Moreover the word 'Iswara' means that He is the owner and

controller.But if Iswara alone exists with Jagat being unreal, how

can He be called Iswara with nobody to control?

 

Kindly treat these questions as Pariprashna: and clear my doubts.

 

Dasoham

Suresh Srinivasamurthy

[Guest guest]

Hari Om,

 

We might be Brahman but we should realise that following jnana yoga or karma

yoga or Bhakti yoga. Till such time we realise that we need to have a guru,

do tapas and so on. I think this answer might not convince you but i am a

bit bad in writing things.I hope my answer will not confuse you lest

convince you.

 

Shambho shankara,

Ram Prasad

 

Ram Prasad

Senior Software Engineer

Processware Tech.

Http://www.ptpl.com

 

 

>sureshsmr

>advaitin

>advaitin

> Re: A humble question

>Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:22:05 -0000

>

>Dear Sri Swami Narayan,

>

>One question that continuously puzzels me is that if the Jiva is

>Brahman himself then how come I got entangled in Karma?

>It is also very much obvious that without doing Tapas (Sadhana)

>Brahma jnana is not possible.So If I am Brahman then why should I do

>Tapas? If this Jagat is unreal then All my Tapas, Shastras, Guru

>etc., becomes meaningless and unreal!!

>Moreover the word 'Iswara' means that He is the owner and

>controller.But if Iswara alone exists with Jagat being unreal, how

>can He be called Iswara with nobody to control?

>

>Kindly treat these questions as Pariprashna: and clear my doubts.

>

>Dasoham

>Suresh Srinivasamurthy

>

 

 

_______________

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[Guest guest]

Hari OM! Narayana Smrithis!

 

Dear Blessed Suresh,

 

The question you asked itself contains the answer, The question that

puzzles Whom???? Who is that? When the question comes, it comes from

the intellect. Brahman is beyond intellect, Everything depends on YOU

only. Guru & other Sadhana only can help you to realize. They cannot

give you the actual experience of realisation. Nobody can describe

or explain or make you experience the Sweetness of Sugar! You have to

eat the Sugar and experience the Sweetness.

 

Yes, of course as soon as you realize Brahman, there is no

differentiation like Guru,Shastras etc.

 

It is like the Pole valt, we have to leave the pole, if you want to

get in to other side. But to reach the height to jump into other side

the pole is needed, with out the pole you cannot reach the height.

Guru, Shastras, Tapas and all other austerities is like the pole.

Without them we cannot realize.

 

Then if YOU ARE ISWARA, then everything become unreal to you. For a

Waker the dream is so unreal! But only as soon as he wakes up. Even

time becomes nothing. Time is only a trick of the mind!

 

YOU ARE ALREADY THAT. TAT TWAM ASI! Only thing we are not realizing

it. We are dreaming always. Please read YOGA VASISHTA SARA. And the

books written by Ramana Maharishi.

 

With Prem & OM!

 

Krishna Prasad

 

 

 

 

--- sureshsmr wrote:

> Dear Sri Swami Narayan,

>

> One question that continuously puzzels me is that if the Jiva is

> Brahman himself then how come I got entangled in Karma?

> It is also very much obvious that without doing Tapas (Sadhana)

> Brahma jnana is not possible.So If I am Brahman then why should I

> do

> Tapas? If this Jagat is unreal then All my Tapas, Shastras, Guru

> etc., becomes meaningless and unreal!!

> Moreover the word 'Iswara' means that He is the owner and

> controller.But if Iswara alone exists with Jagat being unreal, how

> can He be called Iswara with nobody to control?

>

> Kindly treat these questions as Pariprashna: and clear my doubts.

>

> Dasoham

> Suresh Srinivasamurthy

>

>

 

 

 

 

Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger

http://phonecard./

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Sureshji:

 

First on behalf of the list, I want to thank you for sharing your

thoughts and understanding of Bhagawan Sri Ramanujacharya's

interpretation of Gita and Vedanta. The three Acharyas Sri Shankara,

Sir Ramanuja and Sri Madhwa are great scholars, thinkers and sages

with very clear understanding of their respective philosophies. We all

of us have great faith in the philosophical traditions that we follow

and I fully respect your thoughts based on the framework of

Vishistadvaita philosophy.

 

Let me give an analogy to explain why our perception brings puzzles

and confusions when we try to understand other philosophical

discussions using a rigid framework of thoughts that we are familiar

with. In children's science museums, they display what is known as

magical mirror hall - a hall with walls of mirrors of various concave

and convex shapes. When enter into that hall, our image will appear

like cartoon characters! For adults who understand the scientific

reasoning for the funny apperances of our images, there will be no

puzzles! For children who are ignorant of the scientific reasoning,

the mirror hall will appear as a magical theater.

 

Now coming back to your question, according to Adi Shankara, I (Jiva)

will be a Brahman if and only if I free myself from the entangled

Karma! The question, why I got entangled in Karma can only be answered

by the Brahman and be understood only by the Brahman. I the Jiva has

the real part - The Brahman and unreal part - the body, mind and

intellect. Honestly no one except the Brahman knows why I got

entangled in karma and associating my identity with the body, mind and

intellect. I have to conduct Tapas (Sadhana) and I have to take the

help of Shastras and Guru in order to free myself (liberation) from

karma. Also, I admit that my doubts and ignorance can only be cleared

within by contemplation - according to Shankara Bhagawan.

 

Finally, I am fully aware that my answer will not clear your doubts

and it is only upto you to clear your doubts.

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, sureshsmr@h... wrote:

> Dear Sri Swami Narayan,

>

> One question that continuously puzzels me is that if the Jiva is

> Brahman himself then how come I got entangled in Karma?

> It is also very much obvious that without doing Tapas (Sadhana)

> Brahma jnana is not possible.So If I am Brahman then why should I do

> Tapas? If this Jagat is unreal then All my Tapas, Shastras, Guru

> etc., becomes meaningless and unreal!!

> Moreover the word 'Iswara' means that He is the owner and

> controller.But if Iswara alone exists with Jagat being unreal, how

> can He be called Iswara with nobody to control?

>

> Kindly treat these questions as Pariprashna: and clear my doubts.

>

> Dasoham

> Suresh Srinivasamurthy

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Suresh Srinivasamurthy,

 

In continuation of the elucidations from our esteemed members on the subject, I

wish to submit my reply to you as an answer to a part of your question:

 

The Advaitin ( vedantin ) does not deny the empirical validity of the world. Any

negation is only from the standpoint of the Absolute.

 

Here is an objection of the type you have touched upon - " Is the Veda real or

not ? If it is, , Brahman cannot be non-dual as claimed by the Advaitin. If it

is unreal then it is meaningless for the Advaitin to base his philosophy on it

and declare that destruction of Avidya and consequent liberation can be effected

by Knowledge generated by the scripture. "

 

To this the Advaitin would answer like this : "Even an unreal entity can produce

a true effect. For instance, the fear that arises in a dream in which one is

chased by a tiger can cause one to wake up and prespire; the cold sweat and the

waking up are real but the tiger is not - in a relative perspective. Similarly,

though not real from the absolute standpoint the Veda can produce true

knowledge. This apart, the Advaitin does not assert that the world is unreal

from the Vyaavahaarika or empirical viewpoint. To the extent that the world is

empirically real, so is the Veda. knowledge produced by the Veda too has

empirical reality and is ADEQUATE to destroy avidya.

Similarly, Ishwara is the ruler of this empirical world. Advaita has no problem

with these.

> Dear Sri Swami Narayan,

>

> One question that continuously puzzels me is that if the Jiva is

> Brahman himself then how come I got entangled in Karma?

> It is also very much obvious that without doing Tapas (Sadhana)

> Brahma jnana is not possible.So If I am Brahman then why should I do

> Tapas? If this Jagat is unreal then All my Tapas, Shastras, Guru

> etc., becomes meaningless and unreal!!

> Moreover the word 'Iswara' means that He is the owner and

> controller.But if Iswara alone exists with Jagat being unreal, how

> can He be called Iswara with nobody to control?

>

> Kindly treat these questions as Pariprashna: and clear my doubts.

>

> Dasoham

> Suresh Srinivasamurthy

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Suresh,

---------------------

--- sureshsmr wrote:

> Dear Sri Swami Narayan,

>

> One question that continuously puzzels me is that if

> the Jiva is

> Brahman himself then how come I got entangled in

> Karma?

---------------------

Brahman is Kevala Dhrik and is the Sakshi Chaitanya in

all Jivas and is ONE ONLY. Advaya and Addvitiya.

It is due to Ignorance of my true nature {my true

nature is in fact Brahmanhood} that i THINK that i am

something different and that i am entangled in Karma.

The Jiva that thinks thus is in Vyavahaara and uses

its Mind and Sense Organs continuously and gets more

and more involved in Vyavahaara which only consists of

the avoidable pairs of Opposites like pain and

pleasure.

Therefore,according to our Scriptures, the Jiva has to

start thinking:

'Ko Aham?','Katham Idam Jaatam?',Ko vai kartaasya

vidyatae?','Upaadaanam kim asti?'

Meaning: 'Who am 'i'?,'How has all this come into

existance?','By whose action are these existing?,'With

what raw material has all this been made?'

---------------------

> It is also very much obvious that without doing

> Tapas (Sadhana)

> Brahma jnana is not possible.So If I am Brahman then

> why should I do

> Tapas?If this Jagat is unreal then All my Tapas,

> Shastras, Guru

> etc., becomes meaningless and unreal!!

 

--------------------

Acharya states,'Savikalpaka Jivoyum ,Brahmasyaat

Nirvikalpakam'.

The Jiva (in its Jivahood) is constantly deluded by

thoughts in it's mind.

When the Jiva is in a state of THOUGHTLESS AWARENESS

It is verily in its Brahmanhood , Nirvikalpakam.

So ,in order to get Brahma jnanam the Jiva has to do

tapas!Tapas of the right kind that will make the Jiva

remember that It is none other than Brahman

Itself.Self Realisation that the Self is none other

than Brahman.

In the words of Acharya Gaudapada,

"Prabodhe swaapnawat, sarvo vyavaharo nivartate,

Etattaduttamum satyam yatra kinchit na jaayate."

Meaning,

At the time of Self realisation , Just as in the case

of a pearson who gets up from dream realising that all

he saw in dream was indeed false,all vyavahaara cease

to exist.This is the ultimate Truth that nothing

whatsoever ever comes into existance.

---------------------

 

Hari Om!

Swaminarayan.

 

 

 

 

 

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http://phonecard./

[Guest guest]

The question is a very legitimate one for the proper understanding of

the advaita viewpoint. Is Jiva identical with Brahman? If so how

come it got entangled? Why does the Lord say that Jiva is a

fragment of Himself?

The difficulty in answering these questions comes when you expect

unqualified answers in a categorical fashion. Very few questions in

Hindu philosophy can be categorically answered as 'this' or 'that'.

Without getting into words and their meanings, let me try to

communicate what I have understood and let the scholars help me

correct myself if I go wrong in presenting the advaita thinking. I

have read somewhere that nobody can 'teach' anybody anything;

the 'teacher' can only help the student 'discover' for himself. In that

sense we are all students

trying to 'discover' for ourselves what we are.

When I say ' I am suffering an unbearable pain in my leg' everybody

understands me. So long as it is an after-dinner conversation, the

context is clear and there is no loss of communication. Nothing more

is either meant or lost.

But look at the same statement in a philosophical context. Ask the

questions (like the great Ramana Maharishi): Who is suffering?

Whose leg? These questions when pursued to their logical extremes

will lead you to the Self behind (or beyond !) and we then come to

the conclusion that the leg is that of the body, the suffering is that

of the mind which has already associated itself with the body, and

the expression is that of the intellect, which has already identified

itself with the body and mind.

But still we commonly use this expression and we use it even when

we are in a philosophy class where we are expected to be precise in

our expressions. So long as we understand what is said and so long

as we are capable of being precise when precision is called for,

everything goes well. We all allow ourselves to slur our expressions

for purpose of communication in the full understanding that it will

not be misunderstood by the hearer or the student. Such cases of

slurring are called 'abuse of language' by the mathematician. So in

the above statement the mathematician will say: By abuse of

language let us agree to say that 'I am suffering' and 'The pain is in

my leg'.

The Lord, freely uses this 'mathematical abuse of language' very

often for purposes of effective and quick communication. Sometimes

He talks from the highest pedestal and says that 'I am the Beginning;

I am the Middle; I am also the End, of all beings'. Sometimes he talks

as an Avatar : ' Between Me and You, Arjuna, we have gone

through several births; I know them all, but you know them not'.

When He talks about jiva, brahman, Atman, purusha and other

technical entities, we have to resort to the commentators for the

exact contextual meaning. They give the meaning in the background

of the total philosophical theory that they are propounding. So the

meaning of each local occurrence of these technical words depends

on the global interpretation of the school which interprets. Each

school is consistent within itself. We should not mix two different

interpretations and try to find a synthesis. That is where we get lost.

Let us now take Sloka No. 7 of Chapter XV.

(Dr. Radhakrishnaqn's English translation): A fragment (or fraction)

of My own self, having become a living soul, eternal, in the world of

life, draws to itself the senses, of which the mind is the sixth, that

rest in Nature.

With this we can now follow Sankara's commentary on this sloka.

The words 'amSa' (part, fraction), 'bhAga' (part), 'avayava' (limb),

'ekadeSa' (one spot, portion) all mean the same thing. An amSa of

Myself has become the jIva in this world of life from immemorial time.

He is the doer, he is the one who experiences, in every body. The

Sun's reflection in a lake is an amSa of the Sun and it reverts back to

the Sun (without retrieval) when the water in the lake dries up. The

space in the pot is a part of the total space; it loses its (supposedly)

separate identity when the adjunct, that is the pot, disappears (for

instance, when the pot is broken). These so-called amSa's revert

back to the source and never come back. That is why, in the

previous sloka (XV -6), the Lord says 'yad-gatvA na nivartante'

meaning, having gone, they never return. In the same way, the jIva,

supposedly a 'part' of the Ultimate, when it reverts back to the no-

adjunct state, is Brahman itself.

Here Sankara himself raises the following Objection. How come,

then, that the Ultimate which is One Whole, and which has no

divisions within itself, is considered to have an amSa in the form of

jIvas?

And he himself gives the explanation. There is no failure of logic

here. The adjunct is avidyA (Ignorance) here. This is what partitions

the 'fragment' from the 'Whole' and the mind thinks of it as such.

This is the same conceptual error that we make in thinking of the pot-

space as different from the total space. All this is explained in detail

in the 13th chapter, says Sankara.

 

Here is my (vk's) global summary as I have understood it. Within the

physical body there is the subtle body. Within the subtle body and

more subtle than that is the jIva. The jIva associates itself with its

adjuncts like the intellect, mind and body and 'experiences' through

them. If it isolates itself from the body, mind and intellect, then it is

brahman itself. So when colloquially (= 'by abuse of language' ) we

say that the jIva experiences, we mean 'the jIva which has identified

itself with the body mind intellect '. When we say that the jIva is

brahman itself we actually mean the jIva which has thrown away

that identification.

It may help (it may also unhelp!) to visit my webpage:

www.geocities.com/profvk/TheSelf.html

All the teachings like 'Thou art That' are addressed to the jIva who

has not thrown away his adjuncts. It is the 'fallen' jIva who is told to

do tapas, dhyana and so on.

To the question: 'How can the Unreal world through its Unreal

Activities result in the release to Reality?' In other words can an

unreal act give a real effect ? -- to this question I cannot but share

with you what a great guru told me: Sexy dreams do give real

ejaculations!

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

 

 

You may access three on-line books of mine at the following site:

http://www.geocities.com/profvk

The books are:

Science and Spirituality - A Vedanta Perception

Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought, Vision & Practice

Overview of Hindu worship with spl. refce. to South India

 

_______

 

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[Guest guest]

Hari OM! Narayana Smrithis

 

 

 

 

Blessed Profvkji,

 

 

To the question: 'How can the Unreal world through its Unreal

> Activities result in the release to Reality?' In other words

> can an

> unreal act give a real effect ? -- to this question I cannot

> but share

> with you what a great guru told me: Sexy dreams do give real

> ejaculations!

 

 

The last example you have given is not acceptable in this advaitic

discussion. Some times humnan mind & thinking goes hay way. This is

only my personal view. Please Kindly do not use this kind of example.

 

With Prem & OM!

 

Humbly yours

 

Krishna Prasad

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- profvk wrote:

> The question is a very legitimate one for the proper

> understanding of

> the advaita viewpoint. Is Jiva identical with Brahman? If so

> how

> come it got entangled? Why does the Lord say that Jiva is a

> fragment of Himself?

> The difficulty in answering these questions comes when you

> expect

> unqualified answers in a categorical fashion. Very few

> questions in

> Hindu philosophy can be categorically answered as 'this' or

> 'that'.

> Without getting into words and their meanings, let me try to

> communicate what I have understood and let the scholars help me

>

> correct myself if I go wrong in presenting the advaita

> thinking. I

> have read somewhere that nobody can 'teach' anybody anything;

> the 'teacher' can only help the student 'discover' for himself.

> In that

> sense we are all students

> trying to 'discover' for ourselves what we are.

> When I say ' I am suffering an unbearable pain in my leg'

> everybody

> understands me. So long as it is an after-dinner conversation,

> the

> context is clear and there is no loss of communication. Nothing

> more

> is either meant or lost.

> But look at the same statement in a philosophical context. Ask

> the

> questions (like the great Ramana Maharishi): Who is suffering?

> Whose leg? These questions when pursued to their logical

> extremes

> will lead you to the Self behind (or beyond !) and we then

> come to

> the conclusion that the leg is that of the body, the suffering

> is that

> of the mind which has already associated itself with the body,

> and

> the expression is that of the intellect, which has already

> identified

> itself with the body and mind.

> But still we commonly use this expression and we use it even

> when

> we are in a philosophy class where we are expected to be

> precise in

> our expressions. So long as we understand what is said and so

> long

> as we are capable of being precise when precision is called

> for,

> everything goes well. We all allow ourselves to slur our

> expressions

> for purpose of communication in the full understanding that it

> will

> not be misunderstood by the hearer or the student. Such cases

> of

> slurring are called 'abuse of language' by the mathematician.

> So in

> the above statement the mathematician will say: By abuse of

> language let us agree to say that 'I am suffering' and 'The

> pain is in

> my leg'.

> The Lord, freely uses this 'mathematical abuse of language'

> very

> often for purposes of effective and quick communication.

> Sometimes

> He talks from the highest pedestal and says that 'I am the

> Beginning;

> I am the Middle; I am also the End, of all beings'. Sometimes

> he talks

> as an Avatar : ' Between Me and You, Arjuna, we have gone

> through several births; I know them all, but you know them

> not'.

> When He talks about jiva, brahman, Atman, purusha and other

> technical entities, we have to resort to the commentators for

> the

> exact contextual meaning. They give the meaning in the

> background

> of the total philosophical theory that they are propounding. So

> the

> meaning of each local occurrence of these technical words

> depends

> on the global interpretation of the school which interprets.

> Each

> school is consistent within itself. We should not mix two

> different

> interpretations and try to find a synthesis. That is where we

> get lost.

> Let us now take Sloka No. 7 of Chapter XV.

> (Dr. Radhakrishnaqn's English translation): A fragment (or

> fraction)

> of My own self, having become a living soul, eternal, in the

> world of

> life, draws to itself the senses, of which the mind is the

> sixth, that

> rest in Nature.

> With this we can now follow Sankara's commentary on this sloka.

>

> The words 'amSa' (part, fraction), 'bhAga' (part), 'avayava'

> (limb),

> 'ekadeSa' (one spot, portion) all mean the same thing. An amSa

> of

> Myself has become the jIva in this world of life from

> immemorial time.

> He is the doer, he is the one who experiences, in every body.

> The

> Sun's reflection in a lake is an amSa of the Sun and it

> reverts back to

> the Sun (without retrieval) when the water in the lake dries

> up. The

> space in the pot is a part of the total space; it loses its

> (supposedly)

> separate identity when the adjunct, that is the pot, disappears

> (for

> instance, when the pot is broken). These so-called amSa's

> revert

> back to the source and never come back. That is why, in the

> previous sloka (XV -6), the Lord says 'yad-gatvA na

> nivartante'

> meaning, having gone, they never return. In the same way, the

> jIva,

> supposedly a 'part' of the Ultimate, when it reverts back to

> the no-

> adjunct state, is Brahman itself.

> Here Sankara himself raises the following Objection. How come,

>

> then, that the Ultimate which is One Whole, and which has no

> divisions within itself, is considered to have an amSa in the

> form of

> jIvas?

> And he himself gives the explanation. There is no failure of

> logic

> here. The adjunct is avidyA (Ignorance) here. This is what

> partitions

> the 'fragment' from the 'Whole' and the mind thinks of it as

> such.

> This is the same conceptual error that we make in thinking of

> the pot-

> space as different from the total space. All this is explained

> in detail

> in the 13th chapter, says Sankara.

>

> Here is my (vk's) global summary as I have understood it.

> Within the

> physical body there is the subtle body. Within the subtle body

> and

> more subtle than that is the jIva. The jIva associates itself

> with its

> adjuncts like the intellect, mind and body and 'experiences'

> through

> them. If it isolates itself from the body, mind and intellect,

> then it is

> brahman itself. So when colloquially (= 'by abuse of language'

> ) we

> say that the jIva experiences, we mean 'the jIva which has

> identified

> itself with the body mind intellect '. When we say that the

> jIva is

> brahman itself we actually mean the jIva which has thrown away

>

> that identification.

> It may help (it may also unhelp!) to visit my webpage:

> www.geocities.com/profvk/TheSelf.html

> All the teachings like 'Thou art That' are addressed to the

> jIva who

> has not thrown away his adjuncts. It is the 'fallen' jIva who

> is told to

> do tapas, dhyana and so on.

> To the question: 'How can the Unreal world through its Unreal

> Activities result in the release to Reality?' In other words

> can an

> unreal act give a real effect ? -- to this question I cannot

> but share

> with you what a great guru told me: Sexy dreams do give real

> ejaculations!

>

> PraNAms to all advaitins

> profvk

>

>

>

> You may access three on-line books of mine at the following site:

> http://www.geocities.com/profvk

> The books are:

> Science and Spirituality - A Vedanta Perception

> Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought, Vision & Practice

> Overview of Hindu worship with spl. refce. to South India

>

> _______

>

> Get your free @ address at

>

>

 

 

 

 

Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger

http://phonecard./

[Guest guest]

Thanks to Profvk for a superb post on this topic - eminently clear and

reasoned (and with Sanskrit extracts fully elucidated).

 

Just one (pedantic) point - you say "Within the physical body there is the

subtle body. Within the subtle body and more subtle than that is the jIva."

Accepted that this is all colloquial (abuse of language) anyway, shouldn't

we really say that the physical body is 'within' the subtle and the subtle

'within' the causal? i.e. the world is in Me, not the other way round.

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dennis, for pointing out the pedantic point about the

physical and subtle bodies.

Thank you, Krishna Prasadji, for pointing out that the example

(though not my own) that I added at the end of my posting, was

out of taste. I apologise to all the members of advaitin list for

including it.

With praNAms to all advaitins.

Yours, profvk

You may access three on-line books of mine at the following site:

http://www.geocities.com/profvk

The books are:

Science and Spirituality - A Vedanta Perception

Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought, Vision & Practice

Overview of Hindu worship with spl. refce. to South India

 

_______

 

Get your free @ address at

[Guest guest]

Namaste ProfVK:

 

Pranams,

 

I want to join Sri Dennis and thank you for your excellent response

with greater clarity and scholarship. I want to follow up with the

interesting but challenging question: 'How can the Unreal world

through its Unreal Activities result in the release to Reality?' In

other words can an unreal act give a real effect ?

 

This question is quite complex and any quick answer has the high

potential to take us to deep under the quicksand. Let me explain what

I mean. The reality can be classified into three for intellectual

understanding: (1) Full awareness of Ultimate Reality with the wisdom

to negate the life experience as Jiva . (2) Believing the life

experience as Jiva as Real with limited wisdom to negate the life

experience of Jiva during the dream (3) Believing the Jiva's life

experience during the dream as Real. Our awareness during dream

state is a lesser reality than during the waking state but still it is

less real. For intellectual comprehension of movement from lesser

reality to higher reality we keep our analysis limited to the dream

and waking states. Vedantins use the analogical movement from dream

state to the waking state as an example to illustrate the ultimate

movement from the waking state to the realized state of the Brahman.

The classical example illustrated in Vedantic books is through the

`Tiger in the Dream." The tiger that chased us during our dream

became the cause for us to wake up from the dream state to the waking

state. The unreal activity in this case, the roaring tiger, was

responsible for taking Jiva to the new reality of the waking state.

 

The inference and the intellectual comprehension are applied by the

Vedantins to extrapolate the movement from the waking state to the

ultimate reality. According to the Vedantins, "the entire philosophy

of Vedanta" will assume the role of the "roaring tiger" to take us

from the waking state to the ultimate reality. Vedanta also points out

that just like the "roaring tiger," the entire Vedanta philosophy will

necessarily disappear. Implicitly, the Vedantic explanation applies

the known logic to take us (with the extrapolation) beyond the logic!

Behind all these the Grace of the Lord was responsible for bringing

the "roaring tiger" and "Vedanta or other means of wisdom" to realize

the `Self.' This final point is the subtle message of Advaita Vedanta

of Shankara and also that of the sages and saints of the Universe who

have realized the Self.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

 

profvk [profvk]

Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:46 AM

advaitin

Re: A humble Question

 

 

Thank you Dennis, for pointing out the pedantic point about the

physical and subtle bodies.

Thank you, Krishna Prasadji, for pointing out that the example

(though not my own) that I added at the end of my posting, was

out of taste. I apologise to all the members of advaitin list for

including it.

With praNAms to all advaitins.

Yours, profvk

*******************************

No Need to apologize. It was a good example and quite relevant as well, in

my view. It presents another answer to Sri Murthyji's question of whether

karmas accumulated in the waking state could be worked out in the dream

state.

 

I am reminded of the story where Sri Ramana (sitting among the devotees) was

asked by a newcomer whether the Sage had wet dreams. While many devotees

were disgusted by the question Ramana Maharshi answered in a matter of fact

way without hesitation.

 

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Who did you offend with your sexy dream quote? Who is so effete to worry

about such things and yet will discuss gross acts of violence from

Mahabharata without hesitation?

 

Long live lingam and yoni and their divine purpose!

 

|

| profvk [profvk]

| Thursday, 2 August 2001 08:46

| advaitin

| Re: A humble Question

|

|

| Thank you Dennis, for pointing out the pedantic point about the

| physical and subtle bodies.

| Thank you, Krishna Prasadji, for pointing out that the example

| (though not my own) that I added at the end of my posting, was

| out of taste. I apologise to all the members of advaitin list for

| including it.

| With praNAms to all advaitins.

| Yours, profvk

| You may access three on-line books of mine at the following site:

| http://www.geocities.com/profvk

| The books are:

| Science and Spirituality - A Vedanta Perception

| Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought, Vision & Practice

| Overview of Hindu worship with spl. refce. to South India

|

| _______

|

| Get your free @ address at

|

|

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| Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

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[Guest guest]

Let us pursue Sri Ramchandran's three classifications of reality.

His No.1 is Full awareness of Ultimate Reality with the wisdom to

negate the life experience as a jIva. This may be called the

understanding of the enlightened advaitin.

No.2 is believing life experience of jIva as real but being wise enough

to negate dream experience as unreal. This may be called the

ordinary man's understanding.

No.3 is believing the dream experience as real. This may be called a

childish understanding.

Sri Ram Chandran's analogy of the roaring tiger from the vedanta

literature is very apt. The roaring tiger takes us from State No.3

above to State No.2.

Is there a roaring tiger to wake us up from State No.2 to State No.1?

Yes, there is. He is the Guru. He appears in our State No.2, and

moves about as if he were one of us in that State. We are taken in by

the roar of this tiger, but the roar now constantly says: 'Wake up,

you are all in a 'dream state'. I will wake you up. Come with me' And

lo and behold, he not only wakes us up into Consciousness but also

sees to it that He (the Guru) is still there. He does not disappear like

the roaring tiger which only woke us up from No.3 to No.2 and then

disappeared. This is the greatness of the Guru. He is always in State

No.1 but he can, of his own will, descend to State No.2 for our

benefit and talk to us right within our State 2.

Compare this with our behaviour in dream state. Nobody tells us - in

fact nobody can - in our dream that we are dreaming. While we are

dreaming we have no way of knowing that we are dreaming. But the

greatness of the Guru is that he appears in our State 2, tells us that

we are 'dreaming, as it were', and adds that there is a higher state

called State 1, and he literally holds our hand and takes us to State

1.

That is why we are told He is 'sAkshAt paraM brahma' (the Ultimate

Reality Itself)! In fact He is able to act as a 'roaring tiger that does

not disappear' verily because He is the Ultimate Reality!

 

 

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

 

 

You may access three on-line books of mine at the following site:

http://www.geocities.com/profvk

The books are:

Science and Spirituality - A Vedanta Perception

Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought, Vision & Practice

Overview of Hindu worship with spl. refce. to South India

 

_______

 

Get your free @ address at