On Yoga

[Guest guest]

Greetings,

 

How would one define Yoga from a Vedantic

point of View ?

 

How would one expalin Yoga Siddhis (Yogic Powers) ?

 

Could I request the memebers of this forum to

offer their views on these topics.

 

Regards

Shrinivas

 

 

 

Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger

http://phonecard./

[Guest guest]

I believe that the most succinct answer to this question may be found by

examining the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.

 

Trust in your own experience as much as any of the commentators (although

Shankara was very astute). If you don't have any - follow the guidance

therein - the Sutras are like a bija, a seed of all knowledge. The Siddhis

are just a feature of growing awareness, and may be experienced initially

spontaneously, and later at will.

 

I have a speculation that Patanjali was not a real person, but that the name

is itself an allegory of how the knowledge was imparted ...

 

Jai Guru Dev

(Brahmananda Saraswati of Jyotir Math is my paramguru, as he is of at least

hundreds of thousands of TM initiates. Irrespective of the many frailties of

the TM movement - it's basic premise of attaining the transcendent state is

an exact methodology as espoused by Patanjali.)

 

Try this as a start:

 

1. Now, instruction on Yoga.

2. Yoga comes from transcending the processes of individual

consciousness,

3. then is one absorbed in the essence of the inner witness.

4. Otherwise, (we identify) with the form of those processes.

5. Those processes are five in number, and can be painful or painless:

6. True understanding, miscomprehension, conceptualisation, sleep and

memory.

7. True understanding comes from sensory perception, inference or

reliable testimony.

8. Miscomprehension is a false notion of something's proper form.

9. Conceptualisation flows from verbal notions and has no substance.

10. The process of sleep is founded in the concept of nothingness.

11. Memory is the retention of experienced sensations.

12. Those (processes) are transcended with practice, and practice of

detachment.

13. Steady effort in that (citta-vritti-nirodhah) is practice,

14. which becomes firmly rooted by being correctly done, uninterrupted,

over a long time.

15. Detachment is mastery over instincts, the need to satiate experience

or description of sensations.

16. Freedom from desire of the transient world comes from knowledge of

the higher Self.

 

|

| Shrinivas Gadkari [sgadkari2001]

| Monday, 30 July 2001 03:13

| advaitin

| On Yoga

|

|

| Greetings,

|

| How would one define Yoga from a Vedantic

| point of View ?

|

| How would one expalin Yoga Siddhis (Yogic Powers) ?

|

| Could I request the memebers of this forum to

| offer their views on these topics.

|

| Regards

| Shrinivas

|

|

|

| Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with

| Messenger

| http://phonecard./

|

| ------------------------ Sponsor

| ---------------------~-->

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| Tell us what you think!

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|

| Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

| nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

| Advaitin List Archives available at:

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To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

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[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Sri Brian has given an comprehensive explanation of Yoga in the

context of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. The usage of the term, Yoga

in the Upanishads and in the Bhagavad Gita are quite different from

the terminology adopted by Patanjali in Yoga Sutra. Yoga in the

Vedantic terminology is explained below:

 

The goal of Vedanta is to help the jiva (human life) to attain mukti.

Jiva's bondage starts with the vrtti (waves of thoughts in the mind),

for example the sight of an object such as a banana. An object such

as banana is Ishwara Sristi (God's creation) and it contains certain

intrinsic qualities (recognizable shape, color and taste). When Jiva

recognizes the banana, it denotes the state of nirvikalpaka vrtti.

Jiva creates his/her own perception of the banana (Jiva Sristi) by

looking, touching, smelling and tasting; and this is the state of

savikalpaka vritti. Jiva recognizes the banana with distinct

attributes such as good banana, bad banana, rotten banana, big banana,

small banana etc. At the sankalpa, Jiva develops certain permanent

impressions on his/her like and dislike of banana. Yoga becomes

necessary Sadhana to get rid of the sankalpa to reprogram the mind to

deny the influence of vrtti. Sadhanas are the essential components of

Yoga and the practice of Yoga helps reach the state of Samadhi and

ultimately mukti.

 

Glossary

Source: A Dictionary of Advaita Vedanta, by Swami Harshananda,

Ramakrishna Math, Bangalore, India. (This is an excellent reference

book for everyone interested in Advaita). This is available through

Ramakrishna Mission Publications. To explain Advaita Vedanta, these

words are useful but they are neither necessary nor sufficient! These

terms are specifically chosen to indicate a brief outline of Vedantic

Philosophy.

 

Advaita

Advaita means non-dual, one without the second. Specifically, it

refers to the Vedantic philosophy advanced by Sankara. According to

Sankara, Brahman the Absolute is the only reality. Advaita denies the

permanent existence of the world and individual souls.

 

Brahman

Also Atman is described as pure consciousness (also known as sat,

cit, ananda).

 

Jiva

The living being in the state of bondage and undergoing

transmigration. According to Vedanta, the jiva is a reflection of the

pure consciousness through buddhi, the intellect. The bondage is

caused by ajnana or ignorance and jiva can get liberation through

jnana or spiritual

knowledge.

 

Vrtti

They are the waves constantly arise in the mind and are obstacles to

yoga or perfect concentration on the Atman or Self. They can be

directed toward Atman through Sadhana in the course of time.

 

Sadhana

Sadhana represents the means of spiritual enlightenment and the four

sadhanas are Viveka (discrimination), vairagya (renunciation),

samadi-satka (the group of six spiritual attributes), and mumukstutva

(desire for liberation).

 

Sankalpa

Represents the general aspects of the functioning of manas, a resolve

of the type, `I will do this,' `I shall have it,' etc. In Hindu

religious rituals, sankalpa is the statement of the purpose and mode

of performance of a ritual.

 

Yoga

Yoga is the mode of sadhana to keep the mind from vrtti (thouht

waves). The word `yoga' derived from the root yuj has two senses:

Samadhi or superconscious experience through concentration of the

mind; yoking or uniting the individual self with God.

 

Nirvikalpaka and Savikalpaka

Vikalpa means distinction between `me,' the Brahman and the world.

Nirvikalpaka means without distinctions.

Savikalpaka means the persistence of the distinction between `me,' and

`Brahman' and the world.

 

Samadhi

The total absorption in the object of concentration. In Vedanta the

object is the unity of Atman with Brahman. Samadhi is of two kinds:

savikalpaka and nirvikalpaka. In the savikalpaka samadhi the

consciousness of one's own personality as distinct from Brahman,

persists, however declined it may be. In the nirvikalpaka state,

however, all awareness of multiplicity including that of oneself as

distinct from Brahman is completely dissolved.

 

Mukti, Mohsa, Kaivalya or Nirvana

The state of freedom or liberation from all bonds due to ajnana

(ignorance) or maya (illusory power). It is characterized by bliss and

cessation of rebirths.

 

Reference:

"A Dictionary of Advaita Vedanta'" by Swami Harshananda, Ramakrishna

Math, Bangalore, India. (This is an excellent reference book for

those who want to be familiar with the words commonly used in Advaita

Vedanta. This is available through Ramakrishna Mission Publications.

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

Note: In simplest term, Yoga Sadhana represents the conversion process

by which a person from a materialistic life style to the spiritual

life style. According to Gita this conversion is feasible if we adopt

our life style with Karma yoga or bhakti yoga or jnana yoga.

 

-- In advaitin, Brian Milnes <b.milnes@b...> wrote:

> I believe that the most succinct answer to this question may be

found by examining the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Shri Brian and Ram Chandran for your detailed

responses. It was nice to read about Yoga as seen

from slightly different perspectives.

 

Any other members having other insights to offer

on Yoga and Yoga siddhis are welcome to post their

views. Any one wanting to comment of Yoga siddhis

and their apparent conflict / conformity with modern

scientific point of view is also welcome.

 

Regards

Shrinivas

 

 

 

 

 

 

Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger

http://phonecard./

[Guest guest]

 

Brian Milnes [b.milnes]

Monday, July 30, 2001 5:44 PM

'advaitin'

RE: On Yoga

 

 

I believe that the most succinct answer to this question may be found by

examining the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.

 

Trust in your own experience as much as any of the commentators (although

Shankara was very astute). If you don't have any - follow the guidance

therein - the Sutras are like a bija, a seed of all knowledge. The Siddhis

are just a feature of growing awareness, and may be experienced initially

spontaneously, and later at will.

**********************************

Where there is will involved, True Self-Realization is not being Recognized.

Sages say that a person may be a great yogi with many developed powers and

Siddhis, but not Self-Realized. Self-Realization can only happen when the

*will itself* (to exist as a separate individual entity) has been

surrendered at the feet of the Lord. This is why the saints say, "Not my

will but thine my Lord". All these sayings have deep experiential meaning.

 

Although it is true that Siddhis may be experienced spontaneously,

Self-Realized sages unequivocally state that the desire for Siddhis,

thinking of such things, and running after them are an hindrance to

Self-Realization.

 

Sri Ramana spoke on this many times and pointed out that all Siddhis involve

exercise of the mind in some way. Self-Realization, however, requires

absorption of the mind (on which the Siddhis depend for their existence) in

the Heart and seeing through the complete unreality of the mind and its

non-existence.

 

Sage of Arunachala, Sri Ramana has stated clearly that Self-Realization is

the only Siddhi worth having.

 

Love to all

Harsha

[Guest guest]

>

>Where there is will involved, True Self-Realization is not being Recognized.

>Sages say that a person may be a great yogi with many developed powers and

>Siddhis, but not Self-Realized. Self-Realization can only happen when the

>*will itself* (to exist as a separate individual entity) has been

>surrendered at the feet of the Lord. This is why the saints say, "Not my

>will but thine my Lord". All these sayings have deep experiential meaning.

>

>Although it is true that Siddhis may be experienced spontaneously,

>Self-Realized sages unequivocally state that the desire for Siddhis,

>thinking of such things, and running after them are an hindrance to

>Self-Realization.

>

>Sri Ramana spoke on this many times and pointed out that all Siddhis involve

>exercise of the mind in some way. Self-Realization, however, requires

>absorption of the mind (on which the Siddhis depend for their existence) in

>the Heart and seeing through the complete unreality of the mind and its

>non-existence.

>

>Sage of Arunachala, Sri Ramana has stated clearly that Self-Realization is

>the only Siddhi worth having.

>

>Love to all

>Harsha

>

 

Beautiful Harsha.

 

If the root cause for bondage is the ignorance, then the only

solution to the problem is the eradication of that ignorance. Hence

appropriate knowledge is only the antidote for the problem at hand.

Yoga siddhi-s are not a solution to the problem and in fact if those

siddhi-s are not reinforced by appropriate knowledge, they become

obstacles to the knowledge needed to solve the problem. It is like

giving nuclear arsenal to a fanatic or pacifist who can blast others

and ultimately himself.

 

Siddhi-s centered on a mahaatma will bring auspiciousness to the

world - like mahabali Hanumaan.

 

For us who are trying to get over the suffering, they are more a

burden and obstacles for one's growth. Hence anshTaanga yoga of

pataanjali is not recommended for a vedantic student since they do

not remove the ignorance which is the root cause but can even

reinforce the ignorance by building up one's ego.

 

Hence karma-bhakti-j~naana as yoga are recommended for sadhana. This

is the major teaching of Krishna in B.Giita.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I believe that to concentrate on the differences between any of the six yoga

darshanas is to make a fundamental error. Those systems are not

irreconcilable, but just present a different aspect of "reality".

 

As Rumi, that eloquent and enlightened Sufi poet says,

"The roads are different, the goal is one ...

When people come there, all quarrels or differences or disputes that

happened along the road are resolved. Those who shouted at each other along

the road 'You are wrong' or 'You are an unbeliever' forget their differences

when they come there because there, all hearts are in unison."

 

Patanjali's Yoga Sutras do not contradict Vedanta philosophy. They are more

concise (than the Upanishads) and may, for many of us, need substantial

commentaries to comprehend.

 

The idea that practicing the Siddhis is a mistake, is another contentious

issue. Patanjali explains the Siddhis in a sequential, even matter-of-fact

way that in no way suggests that practising sanyama on a particular subject

could be counter productive to enhancing one's awareness/spiritual growth.

(Where are the "warnings" in the Sutras to NOT perform these exercises?)

 

What seems to confuse the issue is any wilful exploitation of such powers to

the advantage of the "exploiter" (or their ego). As Harsha reminds us:

"Self-Realization can only happen when the *will itself* (to exist as a

separate individual entity) has been surrendered at the feet of the Lord.

This is why the saints say, "Not my will but thine my Lord"."

 

Siddhis do NOT necessarily require the will of the individual to occur. I

have had a small number of experiences, including knowing the mind of

another and also "dispensing" compassion that were entirely non-wilful, and

left me with the distinct question of "where did that come from"?

 

There are similarly scores of recording instances of individuals capable of

displaying Siddhi powers such as levitation, who had no comprehension of

where the capability came from (some were clearly unable to easily control

such capability, others were able to "perform" at will).

 

The question of where these powers sit in regard to modern science can be

illustrated by the work carried out by Robert Jahn, Brenda Dunne and their

colleagues at Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research center at Princeton

University. http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ Their expansion of scientific

research into the field of human consciousness reflects the move of science

from Newtonian physics into Einstein's Relativity and Special Relativity and

from there into Quantum Mechanics.

 

The fact that we have no consensually agreed scientific framework on which

we can hang these (still rarely witnessed and scientifically recorded)

phenomena does NOT invalidate the experience of those to whom they have

occurred. We will, in time, create an ability to consistently reproduce and

record such events in such a way that the scientific community will be

unable to reject the validity of such research.

 

in the meantime, I recommend the following as a solid foundation for

understanding the differences in the "Sad Darshana" (despite the Hare

Krishna "bias"):

http://www.iskcon.org/main/twohk/philo/roots/systems.htm

 

Brian

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Brianji,

 

Thanks for your thoughtful post and the links. I am headed off to an

academic conference in Washington D.C. and will be back next week but

probably will not have the time to participate in list discussions for most

of August.

 

Sadaji, Sunderji, Ramji, Gregji, Frankji and other scholars/sages here can

engage you on the six yoga darshnas as my knowledge is limited.

 

Patanjali says in Samadhi Pada that "Now the Seer rests in His Own Nature."

This is the same Nirvikalpa that is spoken of by Shankra in Vivekachudamani.

 

Namaste and Love to all

Harsha

 

 

 

 

Brian Milnes [b.milnes]

Tuesday, July 31, 2001 6:24 PM

'advaitin'

RE: Re: On Yoga

 

 

I believe that to concentrate on the differences between any of the six yoga

darshanas is to make a fundamental error. Those systems are not

irreconcilable, but just present a different aspect of "reality".

 

As Rumi, that eloquent and enlightened Sufi poet says,

"The roads are different, the goal is one ...

When people come there, all quarrels or differences or disputes that

happened along the road are resolved. Those who shouted at each other along

the road 'You are wrong' or 'You are an unbeliever' forget their differences

when they come there because there, all hearts are in unison."

 

Patanjali's Yoga Sutras do not contradict Vedanta philosophy. They are more

concise (than the Upanishads) and may, for many of us, need substantial

commentaries to comprehend.

 

The idea that practicing the Siddhis is a mistake, is another contentious

issue. Patanjali explains the Siddhis in a sequential, even matter-of-fact

way that in no way suggests that practising sanyama on a particular subject

could be counter productive to enhancing one's awareness/spiritual growth.

(Where are the "warnings" in the Sutras to NOT perform these exercises?)

 

What seems to confuse the issue is any wilful exploitation of such powers to

the advantage of the "exploiter" (or their ego). As Harsha reminds us:

"Self-Realization can only happen when the *will itself* (to exist as a

separate individual entity) has been surrendered at the feet of the Lord.

This is why the saints say, "Not my will but thine my Lord"."

 

Siddhis do NOT necessarily require the will of the individual to occur. I

have had a small number of experiences, including knowing the mind of

another and also "dispensing" compassion that were entirely non-wilful, and

left me with the distinct question of "where did that come from"?

 

There are similarly scores of recording instances of individuals capable of

displaying Siddhi powers such as levitation, who had no comprehension of

where the capability came from (some were clearly unable to easily control

such capability, others were able to "perform" at will).

 

The question of where these powers sit in regard to modern science can be

illustrated by the work carried out by Robert Jahn, Brenda Dunne and their

colleagues at Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research center at Princeton

University. http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ Their expansion of scientific

research into the field of human consciousness reflects the move of science

from Newtonian physics into Einstein's Relativity and Special Relativity and

from there into Quantum Mechanics.

 

The fact that we have no consensually agreed scientific framework on which

we can hang these (still rarely witnessed and scientifically recorded)

phenomena does NOT invalidate the experience of those to whom they have

occurred. We will, in time, create an ability to consistently reproduce and

record such events in such a way that the scientific community will be

unable to reject the validity of such research.

 

in the meantime, I recommend the following as a solid foundation for

understanding the differences in the "Sad Darshana" (despite the Hare

Krishna "bias"):

http://www.iskcon.org/main/twohk/philo/roots/systems.htm

 

Brian

 

 

 

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

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To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Greetings

 

Svetasvatara Upanishad contains some great insights into Yoga from a

Vedantic point of view:

 

Yada carmavadakasam vestayisyanti manavah;

tada sivamavijnaya dukhasyanto bhavisyati. (VI.20)

 

When men can roll up the entire sky as if it was a piece of mat,

then without knowing the Luminous Lord human suffering will end.

 

When such an impossible thing happens (roll up the entire sky as a

piece of mat), then it will be possible to attain happiness without

knowing Brahman.

 

The same Upanishad explains the process to realize Brahman from a

Yoga standpoint:

 

Svadehamaranim krtva pranavam cottararanim;

Dhyananirmathanaabhyasaddevam pasyennigudhavat. (I.14)

 

Svadeham krtva - treat your own body;

aranim - as the lower stick;

pranavam ca uttaranim - Om as the upper stick;

dhyana-nirmathana-abhyasat - meditate on the luminous Self as if you

are rubbing the two sticks;

devam - the Luminous Self

pasyet nigudhavat - see as if hidden deep inside [like fire in

firewood]

 

You should think of your body as the lower stick and pranva, Om, as

the upper one. Meditate as if you are rubbing the two sticks

together. If you go on doing this, you will be able to see within

yourself the luminous Self, which is hidden like fire in firewood.

 

 

Vahneryatha yonigatasya murtirna

drsyate naiva ca linganasah;

Sa bhuya evendhanayonigrhya-

stadvobhayam vai pranaena dehe. (I.13)

 

Wood is the source of fire. You see this fire only when you rub two

pieces of wood against each other. But even when you do not see it,

the fire exists in the wood. In the same manner, the self is always

within us. We realize that Self when we meditate on it with the help

of pranava, Om.

 

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

 

 

 

advaitin, Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001> wrote:

> Greetings,

>

> How would one define Yoga from a Vedantic

> point of View ?

>

> How would one expalin Yoga Siddhis (Yogic Powers) ?

>

> Could I request the memebers of this forum to

> offer their views on these topics.

>

> Regards

> Shrinivas

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

Hi all. My name is Pablo and I'm form Argentina. I'm

reading the mesagges, are all very interesant. I don't

write for my english scripture is not good.

 

I would ask to Brian Milnes if he can send the

complete translation of Patanjali's Yogasutras that he

quoted.

I had nine translations but all this are dualistic. I

don't know if someone have other non/dualistic

translation...

 

Thank you.

 

Regards.

 

Pablo

 

 

 

 

 

_______

¿Lo probaste?

Correo gratis y para toda la vida en http://correo..ar

[Guest guest]

Hi Pablo,

 

The quotations that I used were from my own translation, and currently this

is unfinished work - I've only done about 20%.

 

I can't see any evidence that Patanjali was too concerned about the

dualistic non/dualistic argument, so it wouldn't be something that worried

me in translating. More important I think, to try and follow his guidance in

achieving liberation.

 

Best Regards

 

Brian

 

 

| Namaste

|

| Hi all. My name is Pablo and I'm form Argentina. I'm

| reading the mesagges, are all very interesant. I don't

| write for my english scripture is not good.

|

| I would ask to Brian Milnes if he can send the

| complete translation of Patanjali's Yogasutras that he

| quoted.

| I had nine translations but all this are dualistic. I

| don't know if someone have other non/dualistic

| translation...

|

| Thank you.

|

| Regards.

|

| Pablo

|

|

|

|

|

| _______

| ¿Lo probaste?

| Correo gratis y para toda la vida en http://correo..ar

|

|

| ------------------------ Sponsor

| ---------------------~-->

| Small business owners...

| Tell us what you think!

| http://us.click./vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/XUWolB/TM

| ----------------------------

| --------~->

|

| Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

| nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

| Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to