VEDAS : ANADI AND APAURSEYA -- Part 2 (vedas apaurseya)

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VEDAS : ANADI AND APAURSEYA -- Part 2 (Re: vedas apaurseya)

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The Paramatman, being eternal, was present even before creation when

there was no Brahma. The Paramatman, the Brahman are the Supreme

Godhead, is eternal. The cosmos, all sentient beings and insentient

objects, emerge from him. The Paramatman did not create them himself :

he did so through the agency of Brahma. Through Visnu he sustains them

and through Rudra he destroys them. Later Brahma, Visnu, Rudra are

themselves destroyed by him. The present Brahma, when he became hundred

years old, will unite with the Paramatman. Another Brahma will appear

and he will start the work of creation all over again. The question

arises : Does the Paramatman create the Vedas before he brings into

being another Brahma?

 

We learn from the Sastras that the Vedas has existed even before

creation. Infact, they say, Brahma performed his function of creation

with the aid of Vedic mantras. I shall be speaking to you about this

later, how he accomplished the creation with the mantras manifested as

sound. In the passage dealing with creation the Bagavatha also says

that Brahma created the world with the Vedas.

 

Is this the reason (that Brahma created the world with the Vedic

mantras) why it is said that the Vedas are anadi? Is it right to take

such a view on the basis that both the Vedas and Isvara are anadi? If

we suggest that isvara had made this scriptures even before he created

the world, it would mean that there was a time when the Vedas did not

exist and that would contradict the claim that they are anadi.

 

If we believe that both Isvara and the Vedas are anadi it would mean

that Isvara could not have created them. But if you believe that Isvara

created them, they cannot be said to be without the origin. Everything

has its origin in Isvara. It would be wrong to maintain [according to

this logic] that both Isvara and the Vedas have no beginning in time.

Well, it is all so confusing.

 

What is the basis of the belief that the Vedas are anadi and were not

created by Isvara? An answer is contained in the Vedas themselves. In

the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad(2. 4. 10) ---the Upanishads are all part of

the Vedas---it is said that the Rg, Yajus and Sama Vedas are the very

breath of Isarva. The word "nihsvasitam" is used here.

It goes without saying that we cannot live even a moment without

breathing. The Vedas are the life-breath of the Paramatman who is an

eternal living Reality. It follows that the Vedas exist together with

him as his breath.

 

We must note here that it is not customary to say that the Vedas are

the creation of Iswara. Do we create our own breath? Our breath exists

from the very moment we are born. It is the same case with Iswara and

the Vedas. We can not say that he created them.

 

When Vidyaranyaswamin wrote his commentary on the Vedas he prayed to

his guru regarding him as Iswara. He used these words in his prayer :

"Yasya nihsvasitam Vedah" (whose --that is Isvara's -- breath

constitutes the Vedas). The word "nihsvasitam" occurs in the Upanishads

also. Here too it is not stated that Iswara created the Vedas.

 

The Lord says in the Gita : "It is I who am known by all the Vedas

"(Vedaisca sarvair aham eva vedyah). " Instead of describing himself as

"Vedakrd" (creator of the Vedas), he calls himself "Vedantakrd"

(creator of philosophical system that is the crown of the Vedas). He

also refers to himself as "Vedavid" (he who knows the Vedas). Before

Vedanta that enshrines great philosophical truths had been made know to

mankind, the Vedas had existed in the form of sound, as the very breath

of Isvara -- they were ( and are) indeed Isvara dwelling in Isvara.

 

The Bhagavata too, like the Gita, does not state that the Lord created

the Vedas. It declares that they occurred in a flash in his heart, that

they came to him in a blaze of light. The word used on this context is

"Sphuranam", occurring in the mind in a flash. Now we can not apply

this word to any thing that is created a new, any thing that did not

exist before. Bramha is the primordial sage who saw all the mantras.

But it was the Parmatman who revealed them to him. Did he transmit them

orally? No, says the Bhagavatha. The paramatman imparted the Vedas to

Bramha through his heart : " Tene Bramha hrdaya Adikavaye" says the

very first verse of that Purana. The Vedas were not created by the

Parmatman. The truth is that they are always present in his heart. When

he merely resolved to pass on the Vedas to Bramha the latter instantly

received them. And with their sound he began the work of creation.

 

The Tamil Tevaram describes Isvara as "Vediya Vedagita". It says that

the Lord keeps singing the hymns of various sakas or recensions of the

Vedas. How are we to understand the statement that the "Lord sees the

Vedas"? Breathing itself is music. Our out-breath is called

"hamsa-gita". Thus, the Vedas are the music of the Lord's breath. The

Thevaran goes on : "Wearing the sacred thread and the holy ashes, and

bathing all the time, Isvara keeps singing the Vedas". The impression

one has from this description is that the Lord is a great

"ghanapathin". Apparsvamigal refers to the ashes resembling milk

applied to the body of Isvara which is like coral. He says that the

Lord "chants" the Vedas, " sings " them, not that he creates ( or

created ) them. In the Vaisnava Divya Prabandham too there are many

references to Vedic sacrifices. But somehow I do not remember any

reference in it to the Lord chanting the Vedas.

 

In the story of Gajendramoksa told by the Puhazhendi Pulavar ( a Tamil

Vaishnava saint - poet), the elephant whose leg is caught in the jaws

of the crocodile cries in anguish. "Adimulame" [vocative in Tamil of

Adimula, the Primordial Lord]. The Lord thereupon appears, asking

"What? " The poet says that Mahavisnu "stood before the Vedas"

("Vedattin mum ninran"). According to the poet the lord stood infront

of the Vedas, not that he appeared at a time earlier than the

scriptures. The Tamil for "A man stood at the door" is "Vittin mun

ninran". So "Vedattin mun ninran" should be understood as "he stood at

the commencement of all the Vedas". Another idea occurs to me. How is

Perumal (Visnu or any other Vaisnava deity ) taken in procession?

Preceding the utsava-murthy ( processional deity) are the devotees

reciting the Tiruvaymozhi. And behind the processional deity is the

group reciting the Vedas. Here too we may say that the Lord stood

before the Vedas ("Vedattin mun ninran").

 

In the Vaishnava Agamas and puranas, Mahavisnu is refered to specially

as "Yajnaswaroopin" ( one personifying the sacrifice) and as

"Vedaswaroopin" ( one who personifies the Vedas). Garuda is also called

"Vedaswarupa". But none of these texts is known to refer to Visnu as

the creator of the Vedas.

 

It is only in the "Purusasukta", occurring in the Vedas themselves,

that the Vedas are said to have been "born(ajayatha)". However, this

hymn is of symbolical and allegorical significance and not to be

understood in a literal sense. It states that the Parama-purusa (the

Supreme Being) for sacrifice as an animal and that it was in this

sacrifice that creation itself was accomplished. It was at this time

that the Vedas also made their appearance. How are we to understand the

statement that the Parama-purusa was offered as a sacrificial animal?

Not in a literal sense. In this sacrifice the season of spring was

offered as an oblation (ahuthi) instead of ghee : summer served the

purpose of samidhs (fire sticks); autumn havis (oblation). Only those

who meditate on the mantras and become absorbed in them will know there

meaning inwardly as a matter of experience. So we can not construe the

statement literally that the Vedas were "born".

 

To the modern mind the claim that the breath of Isvara is manifested in

the form of sound seems nonsensical, also that it was with this sound

that Bramha performed his function of creation. But on careful

reflection you will realise that the belief is based on a great

scientific truth.

 

Continued ... .. Sound and Creation

 

The above is an extract from the speeches of His Holiness the

Kanchi Paramachaarya as depicted in the books "Dheivathin Kural" in

Tamil ( copyright : Vanathi Pathippagam, Chennai) and in the "Hindu

Dharma" in English (copyright : Bharathiya Vidya Bhavan, Mumbai) .

 

For reading the entire treatise on Vedas and its fourteen angaas, (

running to more than 1000 printed pages) , please refer

to the online "Hindu Dharma" book at the following web sites

www.kamakoti.org or www.vrnt.org (Veda Rakshana Nidhi Trust).

 

 

 

 

 

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Namaste Kameshwaranji,

 

Since That is eternal, it means there is no time

in it. Therefore we cannot say that creation took

place at this time or that time in it. Creation and

dissolution in Brahman are similar to the dreams that

come up and vanish in our minds. In a dream we feel

time. When the dream vanishes and deep sleep takes

place, there is no time. Again on waking we feel the

time differently than in the dream.

The concept of Iswara exists only so long as the

concept of Jiva exists. Therefore from an advaitic

point of the Vedas could be said to be eternal because

the truth is eternal. Jiva and Iswara are

inter-related. Truth is independent. Therefore we say

the Vedas are Anaadi but not Iswara ?

 

Anand

 

 

--- K Kameshwaran <warankk wrote:

> VEDAS : ANADI AND APAURSEYA -- Part 2 (Re: vedas

> apaurseya)

> -------------

> The Paramatman, being eternal, was present even

> before creation when

> there was no Brahma. The Paramatman, the Brahman are

> the Supreme

> Godhead, is eternal. The cosmos, all sentient beings

> and insentient

> objects, emerge from him. The Paramatman did not

> create them himself :

> he did so through the agency of Brahma. Through

> Visnu he sustains them

> and through Rudra he destroys them. Later Brahma,

> Visnu, Rudra are

> themselves destroyed by him. The present Brahma,

> when he became hundred

> years old, will unite with the Paramatman. Another

> Brahma will appear

> and he will start the work of creation all over

> again. The question

> arises : Does the Paramatman create the Vedas before

> he brings into

> being another Brahma?

>

> We learn from the Sastras that the Vedas has existed

> even before

> creation. Infact, they say, Brahma performed his

> function of creation

> with the aid of Vedic mantras. I shall be speaking

> to you about this

> later, how he accomplished the creation with the

> mantras manifested as

> sound. In the passage dealing with creation the

> Bagavatha also says

> that Brahma created the world with the Vedas.

>

> Is this the reason (that Brahma created the world

> with the Vedic

> mantras) why it is said that the Vedas are anadi? Is

> it right to take

> such a view on the basis that both the Vedas and

> Isvara are anadi? If

> we suggest that isvara had made this scriptures even

> before he created

> the world, it would mean that there was a time when

> the Vedas did not

> exist and that would contradict the claim that they

> are anadi.

>

> If we believe that both Isvara and the Vedas are

> anadi it would mean

> that Isvara could not have created them. But if you

> believe that Isvara

> created them, they cannot be said to be without the

> origin. Everything

> has its origin in Isvara. It would be wrong to

> maintain [according to

> this logic] that both Isvara and the Vedas have no

> beginning in time.

> Well, it is all so confusing.

>

> What is the basis of the belief that the Vedas are

> anadi and were not

> created by Isvara? An answer is contained in the

> Vedas themselves. In

> the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad(2. 4. 10) ---the

> Upanishads are all part of

> the Vedas---it is said that the Rg, Yajus and Sama

> Vedas are the very

> breath of Isarva. The word "nihsvasitam" is used

> here.

> It goes without saying that we cannot live even a

> moment without

> breathing. The Vedas are the life-breath of the

> Paramatman who is an

> eternal living Reality. It follows that the Vedas

> exist together with

> him as his breath.

>

> We must note here that it is not customary to say

> that the Vedas are

> the creation of Iswara. Do we create our own breath?

> Our breath exists

> from the very moment we are born. It is the same

> case with Iswara and

> the Vedas. We can not say that he created them.

>

 

 

 

 

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