reason subservient to Self-realization (was: Madhura))

[Guest guest]

namaste.

 

I put this new title, but really this is a continuation

of the recent posts by shri B.T.A. Sagar, shri Sunder

Hattangadi and shri Ram Chandran in the thread Madhura.

I take shri Sagarji to mean by intellectual acrobatics,

reasoning by the mind without reference to shruti and

if so, my views agree with that of shri Sagar-ji in this

matter. In support of this, I give below excerpts from

shri swami Satchidanandendra Saraswatiji's book "SALIENT

FEATURES OF SHANKARA'S VEDANTA". The subject title of

this post is also a chapter heading in that book.

 

 

"It is stated in the Br^ihadAraNyaka upanishad that

YAjnavalkya instructed his wife Maitreyi in the knowledge

of Atman in these words "Atman, verily, my dear, is to be

seen by listening to teaching about him, by thinking over

his nature and by contemplation" (Br. u. 2.4.5). And in the

ChAndogya, it is taught that just as the intelligent reflective

man in the story reached his country GAndhAra after enquiries

made on the strength of the instruction received from a wayfarer,

so also, one who has had due instruction from a teacher can

realize Atman (Ch. u. 6.14.2). It follows from this that an

aspirant should make use of reasoning as well as revelation

from the shruti for the purpose of realization.

 

Those who are able to arrive at the truth by the teaching of

the shruti alone, do not of course stand in need of any reasoning

since they have reached the goal. For such as have fully grasped

the meaning of the two words 'That' and 'thou' used in the sentence

"That thou art" - require nothing more to understand what the

sentence means. "But in the case of those who are hindered by

ignorance, doubt or misconception from having a correct appraisal

of the signification of these words, the sentence 'That thou art'

cannot possibly convey its true import, for understanding the

meaning of a proposition presupposes the understanding of the

meaning of the terms involved in it. Such aspirants, therefore,

would require repeated study of the shAstra as well as application

of reasoning ancillary to it" (BrahmasUtrAbhAShya 4.1.2).

Accordingly the shruti says "This Atman is not accessible to many

even for hearing about, and many there may be who know him not,

even after a study of the shAstra (KaTha u. 1.2.7).

 

"It is beyond speculation, for it is subtler than the subtlest"

(KaTha u. 1.2.8). "This knowledge is not to be had through

speculation" (KaTha u. 1.2.9) nor can it be refuted by speculation.

So says the shruti. At first sight, it would appear from this

pronouncement, that knowledge of Atman, has nothing to do with

reason. But the shruti only means that Atman is not within the

reach of dry reasoning which is not based upon the instruction

of a teacher initiated in the traditional method of imparting the

knowledge. Accordingly it has been declared "There cannot be any

failure to understand it, when it is communicated by one who has

become identical with Atman" (KaTha u. 1.2.8). Again "It can be

well understood when taught only by an AcArya other than the

ordinary ratiocinist" (KaTha u. 1.2.9). The shruti (Chandogya u.

6.14.2) relating to the intelligent and reflective man of GAndhAra

(referred earlier) demands the aid of reasoning ancillary to such

teaching. Hence the text is not in conflict with the one which

rules out speculation unsupported by this means of right knowledge.

 

The sanskrit term 'tarka' has been used in different senses by

different schools of thought. Some give that appellation to

syllogistic inference. There ought to be fire on the yonder hill,

for we see smoke there. since we actually guess the existence of

fire in this inference, the name 'tarka' may well be applied to it.

An additional reasoning may also be advanced in support of this

inference. 'No smoke would be visible if there were no fire there.'.

This reasoning substantiating the original inference has been also

termed 'tarka' by the NaiyAyikas. But neither of these two kinds of

reasoning is meant in the text "It is to be thought over and

contemplated" (Br. u. 2.4.5). "For the truth relating to this

Reality which is conducive to final release is too deep even for

a conjecture without revelation" (BrahmasUtrAbhAShya 2.1.11).

Enquiry into brahman demands primarily the consideration of the

vedAntic text and, as subservient to it, reasoning not in discord

with it.

 

The difference between the reasoning proposed by the shruti and

mere speculation is this: The reasoning recommended by the shruti

being meant to be conducive to intuitive experience is never in

conflict with experience. Independent reasoning, however, is merely

the outcome of the conjecture of one's own mind. "Speculation is

unbridled ... It is impossible to expect finality from speculations,

for men's minds are diversely inclined" (BrahmasUtrAbhAShya 2.1.11).

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

--- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

wrote:

>

> The difference between the reasoning proposed by the

> shruti and

> mere speculation is this: The reasoning recommended

> by the shruti

> being meant to be conducive to intuitive experience

> is never in

> conflict with experience. Independent reasoning,

> however, is merely

> the outcome of the conjecture of one's own mind.

> "Speculation is

> unbridled ... It is impossible to expect finality

> from speculations,

> for men's minds are diversely inclined"

 

Namaste

This is well illustrated by the story of the 'Tenth

Man'. In spite of all the sincere analysis by the

nine seeking their 'lost' friend he will never be

found. The passing wise man has to 'strike' each one

in turn for the realisation of the true situation to

be experiences. As in our English phrase 'It suddenly

struck me' or the 'Eureka moment'; pratibha is beyond

time-limited speculation which may be good fun and

better than worrying about the state of Nasdaq,

Peace

Ken Knight

 

 

 

 

Send instant messages & get email alerts with Messenger.

http://im./

[Guest guest]

Namaste Murthy garu,

 

The implication of Sagar-ji's comment, as I understood it, was

in the context of the present discussions in this forum, and not as a

general comment.

 

It should be acknowledged that this forum maintains an attitude

of performing 'j~nana-yaj~na' through these discussions, and to insist

that God's Name somehow surpasses discussion of Brahman is not

convincing.

 

There is a humorous story about the saints Ramadas and Tukaram,

who happened to be on either side of the river, accompanied by their

disciples, near the pilgrimage place of Pandharpur. Ramadas was

well-known for his his j~naana-nishhThaa, and Tukaram for his

bhakti-nishhThaa. The disciples could not figure out why Ramadas was

shouting at the top of his voice, and on the other bank Tukaram was

weeping loudly! So they asked the disciples to cross the banks and

find out the reasons.

 

What they came back with was: Ramadas was shouting because

nobody listened to his exhortations to serve all as manifestations of

Brahman, and Tukaram was weeping because nobody listened to his

exhortations to chant the God's name!!

 

The disciples then realised the unity of the goals of human

life through different approaches!!

 

Regards,

 

s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote:

>

> namaste.

>

> I put this new title, but really this is a continuation

> of the recent posts by shri B.T.A. Sagar, shri Sunder

> Hattangadi and shri Ram Chandran in the thread Madhura.

> I take shri Sagarji to mean by intellectual acrobatics,

> reasoning by the mind without reference to shruti and

> if so, my views agree with that of shri Sagar-ji in this

> matter. In support of this, I give below excerpts from

> shri swami Satchidanandendra Saraswatiji's book "SALIENT

> FEATURES OF SHANKARA'S VEDANTA". The subject title of

> this post is also a chapter heading in that book.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sunderji:

 

I also thought that Sagarji's comment was with reference to the on

going discussions in this forum. I really liked your story and its

moral.

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, sunderh wrote:

> Namaste Murthy garu,

>

> The implication of Sagar-ji's comment, as I understood it,

was

> in the context of the present discussions in this forum, and not as

a

> general comment.

[Guest guest]

Ken,

 

This is the second time you mention the story of the tenth man.I and , I am

sure, many others like me, are not familiar with the story, and would be

grateful if you could please post it.

 

Namaskaram

Madhavan

>ken knight <hilken_98

>advaitin

>advaitin

>Re: reason subservient to Self-realization (was:

>Madhura))

>Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:25:12 -0700 (PDT)

>

>

>--- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

>wrote:

> >

> > The difference between the reasoning proposed by the

> > shruti and

> > mere speculation is this: The reasoning recommended

> > by the shruti

> > being meant to be conducive to intuitive experience

> > is never in

> > conflict with experience. Independent reasoning,

> > however, is merely

> > the outcome of the conjecture of one's own mind.

> > "Speculation is

> > unbridled ... It is impossible to expect finality

> > from speculations,

> > for men's minds are diversely inclined"

>

>Namaste

>This is well illustrated by the story of the 'Tenth

>Man'. In spite of all the sincere analysis by the

>nine seeking their 'lost' friend he will never be

>found. The passing wise man has to 'strike' each one

>in turn for the realisation of the true situation to

>be experiences. As in our English phrase 'It suddenly

>struck me' or the 'Eureka moment'; pratibha is beyond

>time-limited speculation which may be good fun and

>better than worrying about the state of Nasdaq,

>Peace

>Ken Knight

>

>

>

>

>Send instant messages & get email alerts with Messenger.

>http://im./

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Madhavan,

There are many versions of this story but let us

consider the following:

Ten men were journeying together when they came to a

river. The river was a torrent and they only managed

to cross it with great difficulty. When they reached

the other side they thought that they had better check

if they were all present. One counted and found only

nine. There was much concern which increased greatly,

to panic and much wailing, as each of them counted and

found only nine men present. Such was their despair

that they had 'lost it', to use the colloquial.

Fortunately, a wise man was passing and he lined them

all up and, taking a stick, ( or using his hand),

tapped each one on the shoulder and counted to ten.

Thereby proving that all were present and that each

one had been forgetting to count himself.

That is the version that I like to use because it is

in the striking of each one that the understanding

IMMEDIATELY comes....it is through this subtle touch

that we awake to the reality of the Self which we have

been all the time while searching among the latest

toys and ideas to attain happiness.

I believe that this is the story to which Shankara is

referring in Up.Sahasri, 18v202.

I hope that this is of use

Ken> >advaitin

> >advaitin

> >Re: reason subservient to

> Self-realization (was:

> >Madhura))

> >Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:25:12 -0700 (PDT)

> >

> >

> >--- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

> >wrote:

> > >

> > > The difference between the reasoning proposed by

> the

> > > shruti and

> > > mere speculation is this: The reasoning

> recommended

> > > by the shruti

> > > being meant to be conducive to intuitive

> experience

> > > is never in

> > > conflict with experience. Independent reasoning,

> > > however, is merely

> > > the outcome of the conjecture of one's own mind.

> > > "Speculation is

> > > unbridled ... It is impossible to expect

> finality

> > > from speculations,

> > > for men's minds are diversely inclined"

> >

> >Namaste

> >This is well illustrated by the story of the 'Tenth

> >Man'. In spite of all the sincere analysis by the

> >nine seeking their 'lost' friend he will never be

> >found. The passing wise man has to 'strike' each

> one

> >in turn for the realisation of the true situation

> to

> >be experiences. As in our English phrase 'It

> suddenly

> >struck me' or the 'Eureka moment'; pratibha is

> beyond

> >time-limited speculation which may be good fun and

> >better than worrying about the state of Nasdaq,

> >Peace

> >Ken Knight

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >Send instant messages & get email alerts with

> Messenger.

> >http://im./

>

>

>

_______________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

>

>

 

 

 

 

Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger

http://phonecard./

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Another delightful variation of the story is at URL:

 

http://www.sentient.org/weiwuwei.htm

 

[besides having many other good links!]

 

Regards,

 

sunder

 

 

 

advaitin, ken knight <hilken_98@Y...> wrote:

>

> Dear Madhavan,

> There are many versions of this story but let us

> consider the following:

[Guest guest]

Ken and Sunder,

Thanks for your response.

Namaskaram

Madhavan

>ken knight <hilken_98

>advaitin

>advaitin

>Re: reason subservient to Self-realization (was:

>Madhura))

>Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:11:05 -0700 (PDT)

>

>

>Dear Madhavan,

>There are many versions of this story but let us

>consider the following:

>Ten men were journeying together when they came to a

>river. The river was a torrent and they only managed

>to cross it with great difficulty. When they reached

>the other side they thought that they had better check

>if they were all present. One counted and found only

>nine. There was much concern which increased greatly,

>to panic and much wailing, as each of them counted and

>found only nine men present. Such was their despair

>that they had 'lost it', to use the colloquial.

>Fortunately, a wise man was passing and he lined them

>all up and, taking a stick, ( or using his hand),

>tapped each one on the shoulder and counted to ten.

>Thereby proving that all were present and that each

>one had been forgetting to count himself.

>That is the version that I like to use because it is

>in the striking of each one that the understanding

>IMMEDIATELY comes....it is through this subtle touch

>that we awake to the reality of the Self which we have

>been all the time while searching among the latest

>toys and ideas to attain happiness.

>I believe that this is the story to which Shankara is

>referring in Up.Sahasri, 18v202.

>I hope that this is of use

>Ken> >advaitin

> > >advaitin

> > >Re: reason subservient to

> > Self-realization (was:

> > >Madhura))

> > >Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:25:12 -0700 (PDT)

> > >

> > >

> > >--- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

> > >wrote:

> > > >

> > > > The difference between the reasoning proposed by

> > the

> > > > shruti and

> > > > mere speculation is this: The reasoning

> > recommended

> > > > by the shruti

> > > > being meant to be conducive to intuitive

> > experience

> > > > is never in

> > > > conflict with experience. Independent reasoning,

> > > > however, is merely

> > > > the outcome of the conjecture of one's own mind.

> > > > "Speculation is

> > > > unbridled ... It is impossible to expect

> > finality

> > > > from speculations,

> > > > for men's minds are diversely inclined"

> > >

> > >Namaste

> > >This is well illustrated by the story of the 'Tenth

> > >Man'. In spite of all the sincere analysis by the

> > >nine seeking their 'lost' friend he will never be

> > >found. The passing wise man has to 'strike' each

> > one

> > >in turn for the realisation of the true situation

> > to

> > >be experiences. As in our English phrase 'It

> > suddenly

> > >struck me' or the 'Eureka moment'; pratibha is

> > beyond

> > >time-limited speculation which may be good fun and

> > >better than worrying about the state of Nasdaq,

> > >Peace

> > >Ken Knight

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >Send instant messages & get email alerts with

> > Messenger.

> > >http://im./

> >

> >

> >

>_______________

> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

> > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger

>http://phonecard./

 

 

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