Guest guest Posted August 14, 2001 Report Share Posted August 14, 2001 Greetings All, This is yet another attempt to initiate a discussion on a topic that I find being rarely addressed in this forum. The question that I would like to ask is: Does atmajnana have any utility at the Vyavahara level ? Let me elaborate on this a bit more: Consider three individuals: Mr. Confused, Mr. Sadhaka and Mr. Krishna. Mr. Confused, is very confused about the nature of reality. Mr. Sadhaka, is much less confused. He knows something about the Self. Mr. Krishna, is an atmajnani of the caliber of Shri Krishna. Let Pc denote the probability that Mr. Confused will meet with success in a typical Vyavaharik undertaking. Let Ps and Pk denote the corresponding probabilities for Mr. Sadhaka and Mr. Krishna. Can we say that Pk >= Ps >= Pc, with Pk ~ 1 ? (~ denotes approximately) If yes, then one can claim that the pursuit of atmajnana, in addition to being The Adhyatmik goal, is also an attractive Vyavaharik goal. Best regards Shrinivas Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 Namaste, The sole utility of a human life ['vyavahaara'] is to gain 'aatma-j~naana', according to most philosophies. To paraphrase the question: "does freedom have utility for bondage?' The answer should be a resounding yes! The question may turn out to be a 'pseudo-question' if the very definition of aatma-j~naana is to go outside the orbit of 'probability'. The Gita ends with this 'trustworthy statement' ['aapta-vaakya']: "Wherever is Krishna, the Lord of Yoga, wherever is Arjuna, the archer, there fortune, victory, prosperity, and polity are established." The moment an individual recognises 'confusion as to reality', in success or in failure, is the beginning of the 'saadhaka' stage. There is no higher stage than 'aatma-siddhi', success in aatma-j~naana according to Vedanta. Regards, sunder advaitin, Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001> wrote: > Greetings All, > > This is yet another attempt to initiate a discussion > on a topic that I find being rarely addressed in this > forum. > > The question that I would like to ask is: Does > atmajnana have any utility at the Vyavahara level ? > > Let me elaborate on this a bit more: Consider three > individuals: Mr. Confused, Mr. Sadhaka and Mr. > Krishna. > > Mr. Confused, is very confused about the nature of > reality. > > Mr. Sadhaka, is much less confused. He knows something > about the Self. > > Mr. Krishna, is an atmajnani of the caliber of Shri > Krishna. > > Let Pc denote the probability that Mr. Confused will > meet with success in a typical Vyavaharik undertaking. > > > Let Ps and Pk denote the corresponding probabilities > for Mr. Sadhaka and Mr. Krishna. > > Can we say that Pk >= Ps >= Pc, with Pk ~ 1 ? > (~ denotes approximately) > > If yes, then one can claim that the pursuit of > atmajnana, in addition to being The Adhyatmik goal, is > also an attractive Vyavaharik goal. > > Best regards > Shrinivas > > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger > http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Shrinivas Gadkari wrote: > Greetings All, > > This is yet another attempt to initiate a discussion > on a topic that I find being rarely addressed in this > forum. > > The question that I would like to ask is: Does > atmajnana have any utility at the Vyavahara level ? > AtmajnAna takes out the pairs of opposites that we suffer in the vyavahAra, like joys and sorrows, failures and successes. > Let me elaborate on this a bit more: Consider three > individuals: Mr. Confused, Mr. Sadhaka and Mr. > Krishna. > > Mr. Confused, is very confused about the nature of > reality. > > Mr. Sadhaka, is much less confused. He knows something > about the Self. > > Mr. Krishna, is an atmajnani of the caliber of Shri > Krishna. > > Let Pc denote the probability that Mr. Confused will > meet with success in a typical Vyavaharik undertaking. > > > Let Ps and Pk denote the corresponding probabilities > for Mr. Sadhaka and Mr. Krishna. > > Can we say that Pk >= Ps >= Pc, with Pk ~ 1 ? > (~ denotes approximately) > > If yes, then one can claim that the pursuit of > atmajnana, in addition to being The Adhyatmik goal, is > also an attractive Vyavaharik goal. > I am a bit skeptical of what are called goals and successes. If one has a goal, one is in vyavahArika. Whether the goal is moksha, or material wealth, one is in vyavahArika. Now, regarding the example of the three individuals: Firstly, Mr. Krishna does not have what is called success or failure. Hence Pk has no meaning. Mr. SAdhaka's definition of success changes. While his goal has become moksha, he is still in vyavahArika, and what is called vyavahArika success still appeals to him. But his attitude towards success or failure (I call success here as achievement of the goal) is more sedate. Hence again, Ps cannot be compared to Pc. For Mr. Confused, success is progress in the material world. But he does not know that there is failure always accompanying the success. So, Mr. C goes through successes, failures, enjoying at the success and weeping at the failure. > Best regards > Shrinivas > Regards Gummuluru Murthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 Greetings Gummuluru-Ji and Sunder-Ji, I believe I am still not making myself clear. As I understand, Atma-Jnana has two aspects to it. 1. Realization of the absolute Self, which is described as sat-chit-ananda. Assuming that both of you to the views presented in recent postings by SadanadaJi and postings on the topic of ananda factor, I do not disagree with you on this aspect of Atma-Jnana. In fact this is the highest Jnana. When one is established in this sat-chit-ananda state of the Self, this universe of name and form does not exist. This is undoubtedly the highest state. Q. Is it true that every being inevitably falls from this state, into the universe of name and form, ie. the Vyahavarik level ? If you think, the answer to this question is No, there is no need for you to worry about the second aspect of atma-jnana. For according to your theory, it should be possible to attain the state of sat-chit-ananda and never ever fall into the Vhavaharik level. In my opinion, this hypothesis CAN NEVER be attested by Shruti. (The reason for this is: Say someone makes the claim that the hypothesis is true. I do not see how one can verify the claim as Shruti.) This is not to say that this is a proof that it is an incorrect hypothesis. I for one, believe that the answer to the above question is a Yes. In that case, I am forced to seek out for a goal also at the Vyavaharik level (in addition to the absolute goal described above). This leads me to the second aspect of atma-jnana. 2. At the level of Vyavahara the Absolute Self does not exist. Here the Self always exists in combination with a mind. Let us term this entity - purusha. I choose to call this entity, namely a mind animated by the Self, as purusha, since I am convinced that whenever the Vedic literature refers to purusha, always the reference is at the Vyavaharik level. Now the highest state that a purusha can aspire for is the state of Saguna-Brahma, the state of Ishvara. It is my opinion that this state is an asymptotic state. That is, a purusha can get closer and closer to this state without ever reaching it. The state of Saguna-Brahma is extensively described in Vedic literature, say Gita. The concept of Bhakti, in my opinion, pertains only to Saguna-Brahma. The state of Saguna-Brahma has solutions to all the Vyavaharik problems, for Saguna-Brahma is the lord of this universe of name and form. The second aspect of Atma-Jnana is that it helps purusha approach the state of Saguna-Brahma, the state of Ishvara. If after reading my previous posting in the light of these clarifications, you or other members have inputs to offer I would be glad to receive them. Best regards Shrinivas Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 Namaste Shrinivas-ji, I have really nothing further to add, except your new 'clarifications' confuse me even more! One who has realised the Self has already transcended even the Shruti [Vedas] according the declarations of the Seers themselves. It has never been a 'hypothesis' for the Seers. advaitin, Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001> wrote: > Q. Is it true that every being inevitably falls from > this state, into the universe of name and form, ie. > the > Vyahavarik level ? > > If you think, the answer to this question is No, there > is no need for you to worry about the second aspect of > atma-jnana. For according to your theory, it should be > possible to attain the state of sat-chit-ananda and > never ever fall into the Vhavaharik level. In my > opinion, this hypothesis CAN NEVER be attested by > Shruti. (The reason for this is: Say someone makes the > claim that the hypothesis is true. I do not see how > one can verify the claim as Shruti.) > This is not to say that this is a proof that it is an > incorrect hypothesis. > > I for one, believe that the answer to the above > question is a Yes. In that case, I am forced to seek > out for a goal also at the Vyavaharik level (in > addition to the absolute goal described above). This > leads me to the second aspect of atma-jnana. > > 2. At the level of Vyavahara the Absolute Self does > not > exist. ********There is NO TIME that the Absolute Self can cease to exist. Here the Self always exists in combination with > a mind. Let us term this entity - purusha. I choose to > call this entity, namely a mind animated by the Self, > as purusha, since I am convinced that whenever the > Vedic literature refers to purusha, always the > reference is at the Vyavaharik level. **********It seems as if you are renaming the term jiiva to purushha, which is arbitrary in my view. Gita 3:42 clearly states the mind is beound the the senses, the intellect beyond the mind, and aatmaa or purushha beyond the intellect. Now the highest > state that a purusha can aspire for is the state of > Saguna-Brahma, the state of Ishvara. It is my opinion > that this state is an asymptotic state. That is, a > purusha can get closer and closer to this state > without ever reaching it. The state of Saguna-Brahma > is extensively described in Vedic literature, say > Gita. The concept of Bhakti, in my opinion, pertains > only to Saguna-Brahma. The state of Saguna-Brahma has > solutions to all the Vyavaharik problems, for > Saguna-Brahma is the lord of this universe of name and > form. The second aspect of Atma-Jnana is that it helps > purusha approach the state of Saguna-Brahma, the state > of Ishvara. *******I have no disagreement with this section. Gita 15:18 has a reference to 'purushhottama'; do you equate this with Ishvara? Regards, sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 om. one opinion about this: no on falls from there. it is not possbile because there that state is one and without a second so no question of falling anywhere. had it been possible it would imply inclusion of existance of some other state where it can fall. which is opposite of its being one being without a second, also it would lead to one entity or knower who is aware of both of these and the relation of these where one can fall on the other. supposing if the answer to the point raised is yes then this knower can again be known by some other knower that it can fall somewhere(vyavahara). like this it would be endless chain which is a dosha in itself. atma-gnani never comes back to vyaharic world. though he may appear living a normal life in society because his body is still alive because of prarabdha karma. once these karmas are exhausted, the body falls and atma-gnani could never come and never comes back. the opinion is being sent for the first time. honourable members are requested to take it as a namaskar, pranama in their lotus feet. kindly, bless with your wisdom. om. gaurav --- sunderh wrote: > Namaste Shrinivas-ji, > > I have really nothing further to add, > except your new > 'clarifications' confuse me even more! > > One who has realised the Self has already > transcended even > the Shruti [Vedas] according the declarations of the > Seers themselves. > It has never been a 'hypothesis' for the Seers. > > > advaitin, Shrinivas Gadkari > <sgadkari2001> wrote: > > > Q. Is it true that every being inevitably falls > from > > this state, into the universe of name and form, > ie. > > the > > Vyahavarik level ? > > > > If you think, the answer to this question is No, > there > > is no need for you to worry about the second > aspect of > > atma-jnana. For according to your theory, it > should be > > possible to attain the state of sat-chit-ananda > and > > never ever fall into the Vhavaharik level. In my > > opinion, this hypothesis CAN NEVER be attested by > > Shruti. (The reason for this is: Say someone makes > the > > claim that the hypothesis is true. I do not see > how > > one can verify the claim as Shruti.) > > This is not to say that this is a proof that it is > an > > incorrect hypothesis. > > > > I for one, believe that the answer to the above > > question is a Yes. In that case, I am forced to > seek > > out for a goal also at the Vyavaharik level (in > > addition to the absolute goal described above). > This > > leads me to the second aspect of atma-jnana. > > > > 2. At the level of Vyavahara the Absolute Self > does > > not > > exist. > > ********There is NO TIME that the Absolute Self can > cease to exist. > > > Here the Self always exists in combination with > > a mind. Let us term this entity - purusha. I > choose to > > call this entity, namely a mind animated by the > Self, > > as purusha, since I am convinced that whenever the > > Vedic literature refers to purusha, always the > > reference is at the Vyavaharik level. > > **********It seems as if you are renaming the term > jiiva to purushha, > which is arbitrary in my view. Gita 3:42 clearly > states the mind is > beound the the senses, the intellect beyond the > mind, and aatmaa or > purushha beyond the intellect. > > > > Now the highest > > state that a purusha can aspire for is the state > of > > Saguna-Brahma, the state of Ishvara. It is my > opinion > > that this state is an asymptotic state. That is, a > > purusha can get closer and closer to this state > > without ever reaching it. The state of > Saguna-Brahma > > is extensively described in Vedic literature, say > > Gita. The concept of Bhakti, in my opinion, > pertains > > only to Saguna-Brahma. The state of Saguna-Brahma > has > > solutions to all the Vyavaharik problems, for > > Saguna-Brahma is the lord of this universe of name > and > > form. The second aspect of Atma-Jnana is that it > helps > > purusha approach the state of Saguna-Brahma, the > state > > of Ishvara. > > *******I have no disagreement with this section. > > Gita 15:18 has a reference to 'purushhottama'; do > you equate this > with Ishvara? > > > Regards, > > sunder > > > > > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 Namaste Gaurav: Welcome to the list. Thanks for sharing your insights. The list moderators always welcome more active participation in the list discussions. We should always remind ourselves that we are His instruments used by Him to express His thoughts. New members who haven't introduced themselves to the list are reminded once again. This forum represents a family of members who would (should) love to know each other. Those who don't want to post their introductions can alternately send an email of self introduction to "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava warmest regards, Advaitin List Moderators Wed Aug 15, 2001 3:54 pm advaitin, gaurav goel <grvgl@Y...> wrote: > the opinion is being sent for the first time. > honourable members are requested to take it as a > namaskar, pranama in their lotus feet. kindly, bless > with your wisdom. > om. > > gaurav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 Namaste Sri Shrinivas: Here is my understanding of the distinction between AtmaJnana and Vyavahara: AtmaJnana represents the Vision of the TRUTH. Vyavahara represents the vision of BELIEFs. Brahma Leela is the cause for all beliefs. Beliefs include - discussions, speculations, theories, postulates, problems, and finally solutions. With more than one Belief, we encounter plurality and eventually the state of confusion. Only with AtmaJnana, we can liberate all confusions, plurality and finally all Beliefs. The Vedantic solution stated throguh Bhagavad Gita to get rid of all beliefs is through Yoga Sadhana or the path of Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Jnana Yoga. The essence of this is spelled out in Gita, verse 42 of Chapter 4. tasmaad ajnaaanasambhauutam hrtstham jnanasinaa tmanah chittvai 'nam sams'ayam yogam aatistho 'ttstha bhaarata The entire chapter 4 is classified by well knowns books on Gita as: 'jnana karmasamyaasayoga,' the yoga of knowledge and true renunciation of action. Shankara spells out the essence of the entire chapter with the help of this one sloka. We slay our ignorance (Beliefs) with the sword of wisdom, our karmas get transformed into karma yoga and our mental attitude attains the spirit of renunciation. This attitude renounces the Beliefs (vyvahara) to attain AtmaJnana. Only with AtmaJnana, the question - "Why Brahma Leela?," can (will) disappear. warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001> wrote: > If after reading my previous posting in the light of > these clarifications, you or other members have > inputs to offer I would be glad to receive them. > > Best regards > Shrinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 Namaste Sunder-Ji, > One who has realized the Self has already transcended even >the Shruti [Vedas] according the declarations of the Seers themselves. >It has never been a 'hypothesis' for the Seers. Well the claim that it is possible for a me to attain the Sat-Cit-Ananada state of the Self, that is the state of Nirguna Brahma, and never ever fall from this state even to the state of Saguna Brahma is an hypothesis. I would put my faith in this hypothesis if a few Seers that I hold in high regard attest this hypothesis as Shruti. At this stage the hypothesis is raised to the level of a belief. This belief gets converted into knowledge when I myself can attest this belief as Shruti. I feel that this particular hypothesis cannot be attested as Shruti. To know that such a state exists, I will have to reach it. And then by the above hypothesis, I cannot return to the Vyavaharik level to attest the hypothesis as Shruti. >> 2. At the level of Vyavahara the Absolute Self does >> not exist. >******There is NO TIME that the Absolute Self can cease to exist. I was abusing the language here. It is clear from the next line that what I meant is the Absolute Self always exists in combination with a mind at the Vyavaharik level. >>Here the Self always exists in combination with >> a mind. Let us term this entity - purusha. I choose to >> call this entity, namely a mind animated by the Self, >> as purusha, since I am convinced that whenever the >> Vedic literature refers to purusha, always the >> reference is at the Vyavaharik level. > >**********It seems as if you are renaming the term jiiva to purushha, >which is arbitrary in my view. Gita 3:42 clearly states the mind is >beound the the senses, the intellect beyond the mind, and aatmaa or >purushha beyond the intellect. I think jiiva and purusha are the same entities. I re-read 3.42 and (given my extremely limited abilities at Sanskrit) it says that "beyond the intellect is He". I would take "He" to mean Self especially in the light of 3.43. I have not chosen to term the entity : "a mind animated by the Self" as a purusha arbitrarily. I have contemplated on this issue for a long time. purusha always comes in association with prakriti. Prakriti exists only when a mind exists. I know people would jump at me quoting purusha sukta wherein we see purusha being talked as "Purusha alone is all this .....", it could be referring to the Saguna-Brahma state of purusha. > Gita 15:18 has a reference to 'purushhottama'; do you equate this >with Ishvara? Yes, the highest (uttama) state of a purusha is that of Saguna-Brahma or the state of Ishvara. Best Regards Shrinivas Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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