Remembering our Lord during final moments..

[Guest guest]

I have been following this discussion and would like to share my understanding.

 

In B.G. KrishNa says:

 

sthitvaa asyaam antakaalepi brahma nirvaaNamRichchati||

 

and

 

antakaalecha maam eva smaran muuktvaa kalebaram

yaH prayaati sa madbhaavam yaati naastya samshayaH||

 

in referring to the last moments before death - if one thinks of me

they reach me, the parabrahman. The key words in both sloka-s -

antakalepi - the 'api' and antakalecha - 'cha' need to be emphasized.

Essentially it points to the fact that 'even' if one thinks of me in

the last moments one reaches me. By emphasizing the word 'even', it

stresses as a sufficient condition and not as a necessary condition.

 

Now, a question can be raised, how can that be possible? - if one has

never thought of the Lord all his life and only thinks of the Lord as

the last thought, how can he also reach the Lord. The logic is very

simple. When I go from environment to the next, it is driven by the

last thought that I have as I am leaving the previous environment.

If I am at the office and after I complete my work at my office, I

move to a different location. It could be going to my home, or a

shop on the way or to meet a fried or to pick up someone at the

airport, etc etc. Where I go depends on the last determining thought

- thus if I need to go to airport that will be my last determining

thought. Similarly to a shop or to meet a friend or to home

directly. I would not randomly go to airport without the

pre-determined thought in my mind. Like wise when I leave this

world, the last thought would direct me to the place where I need to

go. Mind involves thought flow and flow involves direction and the

direction for the flow of thoughts is set by my Vasana-s which are

like grooves for the flow of thoughts- They are the same as

samskaara-s. It is possible to have such last noble thoughts because

of my samskaara-s set in previous life if not in this life. Take the

case of Gajendra, because of the previous life's samskaara only he

was able to think of the Lord when he was ready to face the jaws of

the death. In Telugu Bhagavatam, Potana brings this mental state of

Gajendra so very vividly -' laavu okkintayu ledu, dhairyamu

vilolambaaye .." - saying that I have no more energy to fight and

death is fast approaching and I surrender completely at your feet -

evolving from his initial doubting stage out of his pains '....kalaDu

kalanDanedivaaDu kalaDO lEDO?" Everybody says that He is there but

He is there or not I do not know? He evolved to complete

surrenderance at His feet all in few minutes as the jaws of death was

fast approaching.

 

If the last thoughts are also dictated by our prior samskaara, we

should not kid ourselves that we can postpone thinking of the Lord to

the last minute. Hence Shree Kulashekhara says;

 

praaNa prayaaNa samaye kaphavaata pittaiH

kanTaavarodana kR^itou smaraNam kutaste||

 

When the body is all dilapidated and all the organs of actions and

sense are failing to function and even the voice chord is also

failing to function, how can I think of the Lord at that time. There

is no guarantee. Hence his solution is "chintayaami harim eva

santatam..." I am thinking of Him all the time. That is the only

valid approach to ensure we can think of Him 'even' at the time of

death. We need to establish that samskaara. Unfortunately when the

death comes we do not know. Anything can happen at anytime. Hence we

should have proper 'Life-Insurence" that covers next life before it

is too late to start investing. That is the intelligent approach.

If we are seeking eternal life in His abode, let us make sure we have

appropriate insurance to cover that.

 

Hence the point is not to worry about the last thought what is going

to happen at the time of death - let us follow Shree Kulashekhar's

teaching - Let us think of Him now and surrender ourselves at His

infinite wisdom. He knows the best what is the best for us.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

I received this response from Shree Mani Varadarajan. Since he is not

a member of this list I am forwarding this post for those who are

interested in the interpretation of Bhagavaan Ramanuja and Shree

Vedanta Deshika on the sloka I had quoted.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

>Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:40:04 -0700

>Mani Varadarajan <mani

>"K. Sadananda" <sada

>Cc: bhakti-list, advaitin

>Re: Remembering our Lord during final moments..

>Mani Varadarajan <mani

>

>K. Sadananda writes:

>> antakaalecha maam eva smaran muuktvaa kalebaram

>> yaH prayaati sa madbhaavam yaati naastya samshayaH||

>>

>> in referring to the last moments before death - if one thinks of me

>> they reach me, the parabrahman. The key words in both sloka-s -

>> antakalepi - the 'api' and antakalecha - 'cha' need to be emphasized.

>> Essentially it points to the fact that 'even' if one thinks of me in

>> the last moments one reaches me. By emphasizing the word 'even', it

>> stresses as a sufficient condition and not as a necessary

>> condition.

>

>Dear Sri Sadananda,

>

>At first glance your interpretation sounds plausible.

>However, the deep study of the text done by Sri Ramanuja

>and in turn Sri Vedanta Desika have led them on very good

>grounds to a different conclusion. After studying these

>great scholars' commentaries, I am sure you will agree

>that your interpretation must be discarded in favor of

>Sri Ramanuja's.

>

>In this matter, the particular sloka you quote above, Gita 8.5,

>is mentioned by Swami Desika as a reply to Arjuna's question in

>the 2nd verse of the same chapter -- "How do these yogis know you

>at the time of death?" (prayANa-kAle ca katham jneyo'si?)

>

>The 'ca' ("and") is indicative only of the next answer to

>Arjuna's series of doubts. It does not mean "even if one

>thinks of me..." On the contrary, it means that for all

>three classes of aspirants -- those who seek the Lord for

>material or physical good, those who seek the Lord to

>experience the bliss of the individual self, and those

>who seek the Lord purely out of love for the Lord --

>the remembrance of the Lord at one's time of death is

>of vital importance and is necessary to all (idam api

>trayANAm sAdhAraNam -- bhAshya on 8.5).

>

>This is very clear in Sri Krishna's teaching in the subsequent

>verse that "whatever object one thinks of at the time

>one leaves one's body, that nature alone will one attain."

>(yam yam vApi smaran bhAvam tyajaty ante kalevaram |

> tam tam evaiti kaunteya sada tadbhAvabhAvita: ||)

>Sri Ramanuja cites the well-known story of Adi Bharata

>(a.k.a. Jada Bharata) as an example. Adi Bharata was a

>great yogi but grew attached to a deer late in life.

>As he breathed his last he thought only of the deer

>and was reborn as one in his next life.

>

>>From this, we gather that the final recollection

>of the Lord at the time of death is capable only by the

>highest of yogis. To explain, consider what the mature state

>of bhakti-yoga is. It is known as 'para-bhakti', and consists

>of lovingly meditating upon the Lord's form and infinite

>perfections with such a degree of clarity that in the mind of

>the yogi it is like sight itself. Such meditation in the state

>of para-bhakti is clear and uninterrupted, like a "continuous

>flow of oil", as both Sri Ramanuja and Sri Sankara write.

>And we all know that we remember best that which we see.

>Most of us, not having had a vision of the Lord, have a hard

>time visualizing Him in our noisy minds. Even sitting down

>and concentrating without distraction for one minute on

>Him is difficult. How can we contemplate thinking of the

>Lord during the final stages of death?

>

>The yogi, obviously, is different from this, and can

>visualize the auspicious form of the Lord at will.

>To such a yogi, remembering the Lord during one's final

>moment will require far less effort than a non-yogi. In fact,

>one can say it is impossible for a non-yogi to have this

>final recollection of the Lord through his or her own efforts.

>

>If such a final recollection is a necessary prerequisite

>for attaining the Lord, the next question before us is

>what of those who seek the Lord for refuge and place their

>burden of protection upon Him. These people have already

>declared their inability to think of Him during their final

>breaths along the lines of Periyalvar, Kulasekhara in the

>mukunda-mAlA, etc.

>

>Swami Desika clarifies this issue in a chapter of Srimad

>Rahasya Traya Saaram appropriately entitled "On the Departure

>of the Self" (niryANa-adhikAram). He describes the despair

>felt by many sishyas of Sri Ramanuja during Sri Kuratt-alvan's

>final moments, when they observed Sri Ramanuja whispering

>the sacred dvaya-mantra into Alvan's ears. The sishyas

>doubted they would be fortunate enough to have the great preceptor

>recite the mantra in their ears as they left their body.

>Sri Ramanuja, seeing their anguish, consoled them by saying

>that what he did was not to complete the surrender of Alvan

>(i.e., make sure it was efficacious), but was only to make his

>final moments sweeter, "like putting some sugar candy and

>camphor in his mouth." In other words, helping Alvan remember

>the Lord during the his final departure from his body was

>not necessary, as Alvan had already sought refuge with the

>Lord. Hearing Sri Ramanuja's gracious words, the sishyas felt

>relieved.

>

>Swami Desika further clarifies that what this means is

>that the person who has found refuge with the Lord need not

>*of their own effort* try to think of the Lord at the last

>moment. The Lord Himself, remembering the devotee's earlier

>prayer for protection, will manifest Himself in the mind of the

>prapanna without any need of effort on the latter's part.

>Swami Desika quotes the Lord's words from Saranagati

>Gadya, 'kevalam madIya dayayA' -- "purely out of My grace".

>

>So, those of us who have sought refuge in the lotus feet

>of Bhagavaan Sriman Narayana need not worry about how

>we will be able to remember Him in our final thoughts.

>He Himself will show Himself to us at that time and guide

>us along the shining path to moksha.

>

>emberumAnAr, desikan, tiruvaDigaLE saraNam

>

>aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

>Mani

 

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

Shree Mani Varadarajan wrote:

>K. Sadananda writes:

> > antakaalecha maam eva smaran muuktvaa kalebaram

>> yaH prayaati sa madbhaavam yaati naastya samshayaH||

>>

>> in referring to the last moments before death - if one thinks of me

>> they reach me, the parabrahman. The key words in both sloka-s -

>> antakalepi - the 'api' and antakalecha - 'cha' need to be emphasized.

>> Essentially it points to the fact that 'even' if one thinks of me in

> > the last moments one reaches me. By emphasizing the word 'even', it

>> stresses as a sufficient condition and not as a necessary

>> condition.

>

>Dear Sri Sadananda,

>

At first glance your interpretation sounds plausible.

However, the deep study of the text done by Sri Ramanuja

and in turn Sri Vedanta Desika have led them on very good

grounds to a different conclusion. After studying these

great scholars' commentaries, I am sure you will agree

that your interpretation must be discarded in favor of

>Sri Ramanuja's.

 

......

>So, those of us who have sought refuge in the lotus feet

>of Bhagavaan Sriman Narayana need not worry about how

>we will be able to remember Him in our final thoughts.

>He Himself will show Himself to us at that time and guide

>us along the shining path to moksha.

>

>aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

>Mani

>

 

Thanks Mani for providing the beautiful analysis of the achaarya-s.

 

From what I gather from your input, achaarya-s seem to state as a

necessary condition but the necessary condition is fulfilled by the

Lord for those who have surrendered at His feet. If one examines

carefully my previous post in total, the implication is exactly that.

The prior samskara-s are essentially to propel one to have that last

thought and as I mentioned that the samskara-s determine the

direction for the last thought. The sufficient condition is

automatically fulfilled by prior necessary conditions! Seeking

refuse is part of one's samskaara.

 

But if one looks very carefully surrenderance and having worry are

contradiction in terms. Those who have worries have not surrendered

yet. From my understanding true surrenderance (underline true)

occurs only once. Till then one is only trying to surrender - it is

like sleep - one who is trying to sleep has not slept yet and for the

one who has slept all trying has ceased. I agree that those who

truely surrendered, Lord will take care of everything - and that is

the essence of charama slokam too.

 

Personally I did not find any disparity in terms of what aachaarya-s

said versus what I wrote, only presented differently. If there is I

will be happy to know.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "K. Sadananda" <sada@a...> wrote:

> [...]

> Personally I did not find any disparity in terms of what aachaarya-s

> said versus what I wrote, only presented differently. If there is I

> will be happy to know.

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

>

 

namaste shri sadananda garu,

 

I was going to respond earlier when this article appeared

but couldn't.

 

While fully seconding what you said, I want to look at it

from a different angle and question the meaning of antakAla.

>From a saguNa brahman worship perspective (saguNa brahman

apart from the jIvA, from a vishiShTAdvaita or dvaita

perspective) probably remembering the Lord at the last

minute may be a sufficient condition for moksha. And

the Lord in His infinite compassion may award moksha

even just for that remembrance.

>From an advaitic perspective, is there a meaning for

this antakAla? As I see it, there is no antakAla and

an advaitin would not (should not) give any importance

to the antakAla. The subtle body keeps on changing its

outer wear until it recognizes unity and oneness.

So, why this special importance to antakAla?

AntakAla and worrying about it has a meaning only

in case of videha mukti, but in jIvanmukti, antakAla

should not have any meaning. [by this logic, I do not

mean to say that the Lord should not be thought of at

any time. The Lord should be thought of all the time.

What I am saying is: antakAla does not have any meaning

if one understands jIvanmukti.]

 

Your and the List's comments would be appreciated.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>

>

>>From an advaitic perspective, is there a meaning for

>this antakAla? As I see it, there is no antakAla and

>an advaitin would not (should not) give any importance

>to the antakAla. The subtle body keeps on changing its

>outer wear until it recognizes unity and oneness.

>So, why this special importance to antakAla?

>AntakAla and worrying about it has a meaning only

>in case of videha mukti, but in jIvanmukti, antakAla

>should not have any meaning. [by this logic, I do not

>mean to say that the Lord should not be thought of at

>any time. The Lord should be thought of all the time.

>What I am saying is: antakAla does not have any meaning

>if one understands jIvanmukti.]

>

>Your and the List's comments would be appreciated.

>

>Regards

>Gummuluru Murthy

 

Even from the point of advaita - as long as seeker is there he has

not realized that seeker and saught are one and the same. But in the

final moments of this life, when one realizes that what he has been

searching all through his life was only himself, he realizes the

nature of the truth - that he while disidentifying with the sthuula

shariira also disindentifies with the suukshma shariira as well.

Remember the realization is via equipments only. With the equipments

one has to go beyond the equipments - that involves a recognition

that I am not these equipments. Special importance is given to

antakaala only because the teaching is to an individual who came into

existence by identification with the equipments. The question is

what happens to the one if one of the equipments is no more avialable

- that is what it means antakaala - is it not? A similar question is

asked by Arjuna in 6th chapter - what happens to the one who kicks

the bucket without realizing the truth - Lord says he will be

provided a body and environment that is conducive for his rapid

realization - is it not? Hence role of upaadhi's is unquestionable

even in adviata.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste!

Deham and Kalam are viewed from entirely differen and

mystical perspective in Uddhava Gita -the ultimate

Gita of Lord Sri Krishna.

This Divine Chariot-the Sareeram becomes- Deham(Iti

Aham) only-repeat only when polluted by Ego which

grabs it like a vulture and claims it as its

own.Dehante therefore means release from the clutches

of ego.Dehante mukti means when ego clutches are

released one attains mukti or moksha as you experience

Divinity in your own body while still alive!It ia

wonderful!Experience it!

Similarly kala means sense of time caused by Maaya in

the mind.Antah kala therefore means when illumination

releases us from bonds of Time and bestows Moksha or

Jeevan Mukti.!Let Us meditate and experience this

Great Blessing and Bliss with Lord Sri Krishna's Grace

on this Vinayaka Chaturdhi!

Ananda Sagar

--- gmurthy wrote:

>

> advaitin, "K. Sadananda" <sada@a...>

> wrote:

>

> > [...]

> > Personally I did not find any disparity in terms

> of what aachaarya-s

> > said versus what I wrote, only presented

> differently. If there is I

> > will be happy to know.

> >

> > Hari Om!

> > Sadananda

> >

>

> namaste shri sadananda garu,

>

> I was going to respond earlier when this article

> appeared

> but couldn't.

>

> While fully seconding what you said, I want to look

> at it

> from a different angle and question the meaning of

> antakAla.

>

> From a saguNa brahman worship perspective (saguNa

> brahman

> apart from the jIvA, from a vishiShTAdvaita or

> dvaita

> perspective) probably remembering the Lord at the

> last

> minute may be a sufficient condition for moksha. And

> the Lord in His infinite compassion may award moksha

>

> even just for that remembrance.

>

> From an advaitic perspective, is there a meaning for

>

> this antakAla? As I see it, there is no antakAla and

>

> an advaitin would not (should not) give any

> importance

> to the antakAla. The subtle body keeps on changing

> its

> outer wear until it recognizes unity and oneness.

> So, why this special importance to antakAla?

> AntakAla and worrying about it has a meaning only

> in case of videha mukti, but in jIvanmukti, antakAla

> should not have any meaning. [by this logic, I do

> not

> mean to say that the Lord should not be thought of

> at

> any time. The Lord should be thought of all the

> time.

> What I am saying is: antakAla does not have any

> meaning

> if one understands jIvanmukti.]

>

> Your and the List's comments would be appreciated.

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

>

----------------------------

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger

http://phonecard./

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sadaji:

 

I tried to respond to Sri Sadananda earlier and I never got time to

complete my reply. Since the thread is still alive thanks to Sri

Gummulurji, let me join the discussion.

 

First, I want to thank both Sadaji and Sri Mani for the interesting

dialog. Both their presentations are quite persuasive and scholarly

with supporting useful references. I believe that the analytical mind

always possesses the ability to find logical flaws in almost all faith

based religious discussions. I am not surprised to see apparant

disagreements in interpreting this important and complex verse of

Gita.

 

Lord Krishna through this verse suggests to all Jivas that He is

always ready to extend infinite compassion and it is up to them to ask

for His Grace! By granting salvation to even those who remembers Him

only at the final moment, Lord Krishna shows His infinite compassion.

 

 

The entire spectrum of Jivas can be classified into five groups as

follows:

Those who remembers Him during the final moment will fall into:

(1) those who remembers Him all the time;

(2) those who neglected Him during their entire life

(3) those who remembered Him at random

 

Those who didn't remember Him at the final moment will be:

(4) those who remembered him at random.

(5) those who neglected him during their entire life

 

By this verse, the Lord asserts that all those who belong to

categories (1) to (4) are likely to be liberated from rebirth. It is

my understanding that the Jivas who fall into category (5) are likely

to be deprived of His Compassion and Grace. The probability for any

Jiva to fall into category (5) will be zero because the soul (Atman)

is eternal!

 

According to Shankara's advaita that Divinity is always present in our

hearts whether we recognize His presence or not. When we recognize

His presence, we receive His Grace. For example, Nature has enough

food for everybody and those who access it survive and those who don't

starve and this is the law of Nature. Nature helps only those who

takes the help and similarly God gives the Grace to those seek it.

Some of us get His Grace all the time, some of us gets His Grace at

random and some gets His Grace at last! According to Advaita, His

Grace is inevitable and is guaranteed for everyone!

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

namaste.

 

I do not deny the importance of equipment. However, still,

it seems to me, "dehAntakAla" may may mean different times

to vishiShTAdvaitins and dvaitins on one side and to advaitins

on the other side.

 

Let me put my thoughts on this.

 

In vishiShTadvaita and dvaita 'dehaAntakAla' means the time

when the physical body drops, i.e. at the time of physical

death.

 

In advaita, 'dehAntakAla' means when the jIvanmukta stage is

reached, when Atman is realized. Also, please note, in all

advaitic literature, dehA means not just the physical body

but includes sUkshma and kAraNa sharIra as well.

 

What I am trying to emphasize is: the death of a physical

body is of no particular consequence or significance to an

advaitin [the point about equipment is well taken, but

certainly the subtle body picks up another physical body

or equipment]. And also, dehAnta may mean end of sthUla,

sUkshma and kAraNa dehA-s as well, consistent with all

advaitic thinking.

 

I wonder if anyone who has access to shri shankara's bhAShya

on this verse (BG8.5), please look it up and post how

shri shankara interprets dehAntakAla.

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

--------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Namaste GMji.

 

As desired by you I have paraphrased below

Saankara Bhaashya on BG 8.5 :

 

This verse refers to ' antakaale kalebaram muktvaa yah prayaati ' - (

mameva smaran

etc.)

The word 'dehaantakaale' is not used by itself.

 

Sankara translates this as ' maraNa kaale shariiram parityajya yah gacchati

'.

 

I am not sure if anywhere in advaitic parlance "kalebaram" is used in place

of "shariiram"

, when referring to the sthuula/suukshma/kaaraNa shariiram-s.

Also, Sankara's use of the word 'maraNakaale' would seem to indicate death of

the physical body only.

Further, the use of prayaati = gacchati, may please be noted. In the case of

jiivanmukti ,

is any prayaaNa or gamana involved ?

 

2. Connecting to the next verse, 8.6, Sankara adds the comment that this law

enunciated by Kr^shNa, ( that one who leaves his body and passes on

remembering Him alone attains to His Truth ) is applicable not only

exclusively to Him .

On the contrary, Kr^shNa says in verse 8.6 ,

 

praaNaviyoga kaale yam yam bhaavam smaran kalebaram parityajati, tam tam

smr^tam bhaavam eva eti -

 

Remembering whatever bhaaava one leaves the body at the time of death - one

reaches

that very remembered bhaava .

 

Sankara also adds that this final remeberance determines the new body to be

assumed.

 

3. Looking at both verses 8.5 and 8.6 together, can we still say that the anta

kaala

mentioned here refers to the moment of jiivanmukti ?

 

Pardon me if I have been presumptuous.

 

Regards.

VMS

 

 

 

Gummuluru Murthy wrote:

> namaste.

>

> I do not deny the importance of equipment. However, still,

> it seems to me, "dehAntakAla" may may mean different times

> to vishiShTAdvaitins and dvaitins on one side and to advaitins

> on the other side.

>

> Let me put my thoughts on this.

>

> In vishiShTadvaita and dvaita 'dehaAntakAla' means the time

> when the physical body drops, i.e. at the time of physical

> death.

>

> In advaita, 'dehAntakAla' means when the jIvanmukta stage is

> reached, when Atman is realized. Also, please note, in all

> advaitic literature, dehA means not just the physical body

> but includes sUkshma and kAraNa sharIra as well.

>

> What I am trying to emphasize is: the death of a physical

> body is of no particular consequence or significance to an

> advaitin [the point about equipment is well taken, but

> certainly the subtle body picks up another physical body

> or equipment]. And also, dehAnta may mean end of sthUla,

> sUkshma and kAraNa dehA-s as well, consistent with all

> advaitic thinking.

>

> I wonder if anyone who has access to shri shankara's bhAShya

> on this verse (BG8.5), please look it up and post how

> shri shankara interprets dehAntakAla.

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> --------------------------------

>