Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 If our existence is an illusion, created by our ignorant self, at what stage does the foetus/unborn child create the illusion of its parents? Brian soon to be a father ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 om. illusion, including this one is anadi, ever existing. ray of light, gnana removes it on its own accord. om. gaurav --- Brian Milnes <b.milnes wrote: > If our existence is an illusion, created by our > ignorant self, at what stage > does the foetus/unborn child create the illusion of > its parents? > > Brian > > soon to be a father ... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 gaurav goel wrote: > om. > illusion, including this one is anadi, ever existing. > ray of light, gnana removes it on its own accord. > > om. > > gaurav > Pardon me if this sounds pedantic. In many recent posts, I find an-aadi is being translated as eternal or ever-existing. I think this is not correct. an-aadi means only beginning-less. To be called eternal or ever-existing , (nitya), it has to be an-aadi as well as an-anta i.e. beginningless as well as endless. Avidyaa is anaadi but ends with the rise of gnaana. It can not be called ever existing. Regards. VMS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 Brian Milnes wrote: > If our existence is an illusion, created by our ignorant self, at what stage > does the foetus/unborn child create the illusion of its parents? > > Brian > > soon to be a father ... Congratulations. Please do let us know when the bundle of joy arrives. My existence is NOT an illusion. When I say I am, I exist, there is NO illusion. Existensce is My real nature. But when I say I am a 70 year old man, 5' 6" tall, subject to pain and pleasure, etc the latter parts of my statement are based on an illusion , whereby I identify myself with my body, mind, etc. Please refer to Sadananda's adhyaasa [ Ooops! I mean his lucid notes on adhyaasa ]. This illusion too is not created by me. It is inherent in my jiivahood. It 'began' so to say when maayaa veiled my pure Atma nature , and superimposed anaatama values on it , making "me" into a jiiva. It has been carried forward through innumerable births I have taken. Don't ask why or when it happened - there is no answer except that it is maayaa ! The good news is that though maayaa is beginningless , it is not endless either. It can be put an end to by ..... well you know all that much better than I do ! Regards VMS > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 advaitin, "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman@p...> wrote: > > > Brian Milnes wrote: > > > If our existence is an illusion, created by our ignorant self, at what stage > > does the foetus/unborn child create the illusion of its parents? > > > > Brian > > > > soon to be a father ... > > Congratulations. Please do let us know when the bundle of joy arrives. Greetings Brian, Let me join Shri Sundaram in congratulating you and your wife. It would seem that the parents' and others' teaching the child, and its learning [imbibing] the illusion gets the final stamp when the child can consciously distinguish/separate itself as 'I' from the environment, probably between the ages of 1 & 3 years. The process of 'unlearning' or 'de-hypnotisation' from the illusion then begins, depending on the type of 'baggage'[of karma]the child brings with it. There are interesting stories illustrating the above: Rishi Vamadeva of the Rigveda, enlightetend while still in womb; the child Hastamalaka, one of the 4 principal disciples of Shankara, who was 'dumb' by ordinary standards, but Shankara recognised him as a ralised sage; the story of Queen Madalasa in Markandeya Purana, who instructed her 4 sons according to their spiritual capacity, and only one of them became fit to rule the kigdom; etc. Only a 'jnani' can recognise another 'jnani', regardless of the chronological age; so in the Hindu culture it is considered a mark of great fortune to have a child blessed by a 'jnani' at the earliest opportunity. Regards, sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 Namaste Madhavaji, This is the only link I got: http://www.urday.com/mark_chp4.htm Saint Jnaneshvara has a poetic work [in Marathi] based on this legend. I hope to get it on the web someday! Regards, sunder advaitin, "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava@f...> wrote: > Sundarji: > > There is this interesting story about Rani Madalasa, who gave birth to great > Rajarshis who ruled India. "SuddhOsi buddhOsi niraMjanOsi saMsAra mAyA > parimOhitOsi". She was singing a lullaby to the infant saying "You are > purre, you are eternal, you are taintless, it is only that you are deluded > and born in to the maya called SaMsAra"... Any links on this story? > > Yours, > Madhava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2001 Report Share Posted August 17, 2001 Dear Brian, I wonder if any of the following might be of interest to you. The teaching that ignorance has no beginning is primary but even if we 'start' from the point of believing that we are parents a part can be played. Many cultures have a similar idea to the following and my account of a tradition from India is only hearsay so I hope that others will be able to point to its authoritive source. At about twelve weeks after conception a vow is taken in order for the the human birth to be completed. The vow has three parts: To remember (Absolute, God, Brahman etc), to observe the laws of the creation and to live by them. For me personally these are an important guide so each year, six months before my birthday I recall these promises. When my children were born and at the infant stage I would say them for them and taught them the same as they got older. Once they have been taught it is up to them if they continue the practice. Your question also sparked off some further 'big step' questions into the descent into superimposition and ignorance: When do we first know that we do not know and need a teacher? When do we know we are teenagers with all the accompanying confusion? As parents we have to play a part in this world and have to educate our children which means teaching them to learn to read and write. I am a teacher and I know that by teaching children to read and write I am in danger of cutting them off from the primary skill of sravana...listening. As we have moved away from an oral tradition to a written one we have dulled the intellect. We have placed the forms and names of letters onto sounds; we rarely learn by heart. This directs the intellect to find meanings in the written word rather than sound and this has a spin off in meditation with a looking at the mantra as a word rather than hearing it as a sound. This means that there is an extra layer of superimposition for the mantra to work through..which, of course, it will do. So at the important step when the child learns to say the cultural words for 'Mummy and Daddy', and then cements them in letters in due course when they proudly learn to write their own names as well, then I feel that as parents it is important for us to keep a larger picture in mind so that the connection is maintained in the heart with the Self which is mother, father and child. Then as the drama unfolds around 'our lives' the meaning of those promises will emerge. Finally you may like to look up the story of Rama's brother, Lakshman, who was curious about Maya and dived into the river to retrieve Rama's ring. If you do not know it I will recount it later for you, Peace ken Knight Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2001 Report Share Posted August 17, 2001 Namaste, This thread brings up the very important concept of 'samskaras'. An excellent essay is at URL: http://kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part16/chap9.htm The Brihadarnyaka upanishad [VI:iv: ]also gives some instructions. This also reminds one of Sw. Vivekananda's exhortations to his audience, addressing it as: "amR^itasya putraH" [O ye children of immortality!, a quote from Shvetashvatara upanishad]; and his parable of the lion cub getting lost in a flock of sheep, brought up by the sheep, and learning to bleat like one, till one day a wandering lion spots it, shows its reflection in the water and teaches it to roar like a lion! Regards, sunder advaitin, ken knight <hilken_98@Y...> wrote: > > Dear Brian, > I wonder if any of the following might be of interest > to you. The teaching that ignorance has no beginning > is primary but even if we 'start' from the point of > believing that we are parents a part can be played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2001 Report Share Posted August 19, 2001 Thank you for your contribution, Ken. | | ken knight [hilken_98] | Friday, 17 August 2001 08:00 | advaitin | Re: Conundrum | | | | Dear Brian, | I wonder if any of the following might be of interest | to you. <snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2001 Report Share Posted August 20, 2001 advaitin, Brian Milnes <b.milnes@b...> wrote: > If our existence is an illusion, created by our ignorant self, at what stage > does the foetus/unborn child create the illusion of its parents? > > Brian > > soon to be a father ... > Hello Self (Brian ;-) I guess the way I think of this meaning, is that the self you 'think' you are is illusory cause we are not a thought. It seems to me (observing the way the mind works) that children start to form thoughts & images of a self separate from Self to try to give the parents what they want. That is if the parents hold some image of perfection before the child that they do not see them as .. yet. And so the forming of an idealised self image arises based on the projections of the parents. imo colette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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