Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 namaste. A caterpillar transforms into a butterfly at its own ripe time. Similarly, jIvA transforms into Atman at its own ripe time. This time can neither be shortened nor lengthened. Ishwara decides when the caterpillar turns into a butterfly. If we, the humans, willfully hasten this transformation (of turning a caterpillar into a butterfly), the resulting butterfly will have defects in its configuration with either a fat body or with inadequate development of wings or some other defect. For the correct transformation, the time and conditions have to be right and ideal and it is decided by Ishwara. Similarly, jIvA transforms into Atman at the right time and stage. While it seems that we are doing some willful effort, and we may sometimes be in a hurry for this transformation, this is a natural process. Ishwara decides the time and also decides the effort that goes into it, which sometimes the jIvA thinks it is putting into the whole matter. So, what all we have to do is to have the wisdom to leave the matter to Ishwara. Let Him trasform us at the right time and let the jIvA not take too much credit for this transformation. Regards Gummuluru Murthy --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 Sorry Murthy gaaru - you are getting into the catch 22 situation. If I have the wisdom to leave the matter to Iswara truely - the problem in fact is solved. That surrenderance and transformation you talked about are two sides of the same coin. That wisdom is in fact is the wisdom we are longing for. Efforts to leave to Iswara or Lord is the essentially boils down to our efforts to accomplish the fact.That is what Sadhana implies. For that I need the purity of the mind or chitta suddhi. I cannot leave things to Iswara only because of my attachments which are due to the ignorance I have. Hence the catch 22 situation. Hari Om! Sadananda >namaste. > >A caterpillar transforms into a butterfly at its own ripe time. >Similarly, jIvA transforms into Atman at its own ripe time. This >time can neither be shortened nor lengthened. > >Ishwara decides when the caterpillar turns into a butterfly. If >we, the humans, willfully hasten this transformation (of turning >a caterpillar into a butterfly), the resulting butterfly will >have defects in its configuration with either a fat body or with >inadequate development of wings or some other defect. For the >correct transformation, the time and conditions have to be right >and ideal and it is decided by Ishwara. > >Similarly, jIvA transforms into Atman at the right time and stage. >While it seems that we are doing some willful effort, and we may >sometimes be in a hurry for this transformation, this is a natural >process. Ishwara decides the time and also decides the effort that >goes into it, which sometimes the jIvA thinks it is putting into >the whole matter. > >So, what all we have to do is to have the wisdom to leave the >matter to Ishwara. Let Him trasform us at the right time and let >the jIvA not take too much credit for this transformation. > > >Regards >Gummuluru Murthy >--- > > Sponsor > > Start here... > >Height: >3 4 5 6 7 8 ft 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 in > >Weight: >lbs. kg. > > > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of >nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: ><http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/>http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advait\ in/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: ><advaitin/messages>\ advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to the ><> -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, K. Sadananda wrote: > Sorry Murthy gaaru - you are getting into the catch 22 situation. If > I have the wisdom to leave the matter to Iswara truely - the problem > in fact is solved. That surrenderance and transformation you talked > about are two sides of the same coin. That wisdom is in fact is the > wisdom we are longing for. Efforts to leave to Iswara or Lord is the > essentially boils down to our efforts to accomplish the fact.That is > what Sadhana implies. For that I need the purity of the mind or > chitta suddhi. I cannot leave things to Iswara only because of my > attachments which are due to the ignorance I have. Hence the catch > 22 situation. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > namaste shri Sadananda garu, Thanks very much for your thoughts on this. Yes, it is a catch 22. However, we should know that it is a catch 22. What I meant to convey in that post is: the people need to be content leaving this transformation to Ishwara. Ishwara is the one that decides (based on our karmaphala) whether the jIvA is ready for the transformation to Atman. What I mean by this transformation (I used the analogy of caterpillar to butterfly, hence the word transformation) is to have the knowledge that jIvA is Atman. The emphasis here is: the transformation of the jIvA's thought that *he/she* is doing all the necessary work for this "transformation". jIvA is not doing it. Ishwara is doing it and, just like a pregnant lady delivers after the period of gestation is over and not before, similarly, the jIvA recognizes at the right and ripe moment (decided by Ishwara) that he/she is not different from Atman. I meant this post also as an expression of mild criticism or concern at the emerging science news (of the past few years) where sometimes the human thinks he/she is playing the role of Ishwara, which can never be the case. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 Hi! I think the surrender cannot be decidided. Who is that decided?. It is that must be dissolved, however he survive to decide. The surrender is espontaneus consequence of the deeply view (whitout the seer) the irreality of the (separate) jiva. How can to arrive this view? I just have intellectual answers. Regards Pablo _______ ¿Lo probaste? Correo gratis y para toda la vida en http://correo..ar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 This seems to suggest that we have no influence on the speed of our own journey to liberation. Whereas Sadananda is quite polite, I am inclined to protest more strongly about this idea. Why would any of us otherwise indulge in good practice of meditation, pranyama and so on, if all we had to do was wait for Ishwara's time for us to be enlightened, and it would happen then anyway? It is down to us to accelerate the process as far as we can - and it seems that this is one element of Hinduism that I firmly reject - that only those of the right caste may take certain paths. It's utter nonsense. Each of us should devote as much time to meditation and experiencing transcendental consciousness as possible. "By that regular and long term practice shall you achieve liberation." (Patanjali) It may be that how much progress we can make IS dependent of our "karmic starting point" - but to suggest that we cannot influence our spiritual growth flies in the face of experience. Brian | | Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy] | Wednesday, 29 August 2001 14:00 | advaitin | caterpillar - butterfly; jIvA - Atman | | | | namaste. | | A caterpillar transforms into a butterfly at its own ripe time. | Similarly, jIvA transforms into Atman at its own ripe time. This | time can neither be shortened nor lengthened. | | Ishwara decides when the caterpillar turns into a butterfly. If | we, the humans, willfully hasten this transformation (of turning | a caterpillar into a butterfly), the resulting butterfly will | have defects in its configuration with either a fat body or with | inadequate development of wings or some other defect. For the | correct transformation, the time and conditions have to be right | and ideal and it is decided by Ishwara. | | Similarly, jIvA transforms into Atman at the right time and stage. | While it seems that we are doing some willful effort, and we may | sometimes be in a hurry for this transformation, this is a natural | process. Ishwara decides the time and also decides the effort that | goes into it, which sometimes the jIvA thinks it is putting into | the whole matter. | | So, what all we have to do is to have the wisdom to leave the | matter to Ishwara. Let Him trasform us at the right time and let | the jIvA not take too much credit for this transformation. | | | Regards | Gummuluru Murthy | --- | | | | | | | | | | ------------------------ Sponsor | ---------------------~--> | FREE COLLEGE MONEY | CLICK HERE to search | 600,000 scholarships! | http://us.click./zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/XUWolB/TM | ---------------------------- | --------~-> | | Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of | nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. | Advaitin List Archives available at: | http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ | To Post a message send an email to : advaitin | Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages | | | | Your use of is subject to | | | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 Gummuluru Murthy wrote: > >What I meant to convey in that post is: the people need to be >content leaving this transformation to Ishwara. Ishwara is the >one that decides (based on our karmaphala) whether the jIvA is >ready for the transformation to Atman. What I mean by this >transformation (I used the analogy of caterpillar to butterfly, >hence the word transformation) is to have the knowledge that >jIvA is Atman. > >The emphasis here is: the transformation of the jIvA's thought >that *he/she* is doing all the necessary work for this >"transformation". jIvA is not doing it. Ishwara is doing it > I would like to put it differently - It is neither Jiiva doing it nor Iswara doing it - since it is not the result of any doing - it is swataH siddham or already accomplished fact. What is needed is only to drop the wrong notions that 'I' am the subject and that there is an object out there different from I - at the same time mistakenly taking what I am not that is taking this object (body mind and intellect) is only me. One can gracefully say that it is Blessing of the Lord. That is only an attitude in my mind to help me from doing anything since the very doing something is cocooning oneself in the notion that I am the doer. At the same time I am not the doer but Iswara is also another notion -What actually needed is I have to loose the misunderstanding that I have - since I Have this misunderstanding and it is not the Iswara that has this misunderstanding. Given all these puzzling factors it is better to do the yoga since I have the notion of doership -Hence sadhana is essential - Iswara does not need to do any sadhana, I have to do it - until I drop the notion that I am the doer. But when that happens that is end of the sadhana too, since that notions of doership is gone only upon surrendance and that will happen only when the knowledge dawns on me that I was never a doer to start with! I am trying to emphasize the fact that leaving everything to God does not relieve us from the responsibility on our part for our sadhana. We cannot leave everything to God unless we are wise enough to do that factually and when we are that wise, then concept of God also merges with us. What I recommend is do everything one can and then leave the results to Him - till the fact that I do not have to do anything is recognized as a fact. That is the emphasis of Yoga shaastra - Bhagavad Giita. Hari OM! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 >Hi! > >I think the surrender cannot be decidided. Who is that >decided?. It is that must be dissolved, however he >survive to decide. >The surrender is espontaneus consequence of the deeply >view (whitout the seer) the irreality of the >(separate) jiva. >How can to arrive this view? I just have intellectual >answers. > >Regards > >Pablo Pablo - Thanks for the post - as I understand from your post - it is true surrenderence is not an action by itself. That is a byproduct of the knowledge itself. Surrenderence is the surrenderance of wrong notions in my mind and notions are dropped when the knowledge sinks in. Knowledge is not by will or one cannot will the knowledge, any knowledge for that matter. One can of course prepare the mind (in fact one should prepare the mind for the knowledge) so that intuition develops and that is what is called j~naana kshakshu or 'wisdom eye'. Surrenderance and knowledge etc all mean the same - ultimately knowing who I am! (that is from the point of knowledge) - same as discarding who I am not (from the point of surrenderance) This as you said involves even the notion that I have to surrender which is the same as dropping the notion that I am ignorant! Ultimately - Realization is realization of the fact that Ignorance I never had I lost or surrendering the notion that I have to surrender! The puzzles get resolved slowly by itself as we do our sadhana - Which I have to do it as long as I feel I am limited. Hari OM! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 Namaste Gummuluru-Ji, I partly agree with your post and partly disagree. I agree that acting on a desire that is rooted in intention is incorrect and sows seeds of bondage. But acting on a desire that comes on its own is liberating and is a part of sadhana. I guess what you mean to convey is one should wait for the desire to manifest on its own. One can say that such a desire is rooted in Isawara, or inspried by Iswara. But recognising this and acting is in the domain of Jiva. It is the sadhana of Jiva. I presume you are hinting at genetic engineering, cloning etc. These are experiments, and we know that experimentation is essential for progress. If there is anything useful for society in it, that will get adopted. And why do you think that the these experiments are not inspired by Ishwara ? As an aside you might want to ask youself what exactly is Ishwara ? Best regards Shrinivas >Ishwara decides when the caterpillar turns into a >butterfly. If >we, the humans, willfully hasten this transformation >>(of turning >a caterpillar into a butterfly), the resulting >butterfly will >have defects in its configuration with either a fat >body or with >inadequate development of wings or some other defect. Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Brian Milnes wrote: > This seems to suggest that we have no influence on the speed of our own > journey to liberation. Whereas Sadananda is quite polite, I am inclined to > protest more strongly about this idea. > > Why would any of us otherwise indulge in good practice of meditation, > pranyama and so on, if all we had to do was wait for Ishwara's time for us > to be enlightened, and it would happen then anyway? > > It is down to us to accelerate the process as far as we can - and it seems > that this is one element of Hinduism that I firmly reject - that only those > of the right caste may take certain paths. It's utter nonsense. Each of us > should devote as much time to meditation and experiencing transcendental > consciousness as possible. "By that regular and long term practice shall you > achieve liberation." (Patanjali) > > It may be that how much progress we can make IS dependent of our "karmic > starting point" - but to suggest that we cannot influence our spiritual > growth flies in the face of experience. > > Brian > namaste shri Brian-ji, Your protest against the content of my previous post is well taken and I can understand the deeply-held conviction that makes that protest. Shri Chinmayananda-ji used to say in his discourses that every argument (statement) is correct at the level of understanding at which it is made. Let me try to explain what I have stated earlier. 1. A jIvA cannot say *he/she has decided* to speed up the process of Self-realization. If such a thing (hastening of the pace of process of Self-realization) had taken place, it is the result of pUrvajanmasukr^itam (the result of some good deeds done in previous lives). That can happen if Ishwara, the karmaphalaprada (the assesser of the good and bad actions of the jIvA and bestower of the phala for these actions) decides that the jIvA is getting ripe for Self-realization. 2. Moksha is not freedom for the individual. It is freedom *from* individuality. Thus, as long as the jIvA thinks that he/she is doing it (increasing the pace of Self- realization, etc), that is not moksha and there is no moksha in that scenario. 3. shri shankara says repeatedly in His writings that jIvA's actions do not lead to moksha. They will lead to cittashuddhi, yes, but not to moksha. 4. If we accept there is jIvA, we also have to accept there is Ishwara. Ishwara is karmaphalaprada. It is He who assesses the readiness of the jIvA. Indication of the time of readiness of the jIvA is also stated clearly in shri shankara's writings. It is, as per vivekacUDAmaNi, ahambhAvodayAbhAvo (bodhasya paramAvadhiH); i.e. when the sense of I of the ego does not raise anymore, i.e. when the surrender (of the ego) is complete and unconditional, i.e., when the jIvA does not claim that he/she has haastened the process of Self-realization. There may be a hastening (increase in pace) of the jIvA's intensity of spiritual quest. It may look like the jIvA has increased the pace of his/her willful action. But I am of the view that the jIvA cannot claim any credit for it. If he/she does that, it is back to square 1 until that feeling is dropped. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ---- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 Namaste In the topic of the Sadhana I think that there is a danger. Shankara says that the action doesn't produce Mukti. That all action, all sadhana, is in order to purify the mind, i.e., that the vikshepa shakti and avritti shakti comes to an end. The jiva is a product of these forces. When she/he is carried out a sadhana it exists the danger that increases the sense of being a separate entity: "I carry out the sadhana to obtain Mukti." How should it be carried out the action so that it doesn't enhance the illusion of believing that I am the actor? The Bhagavad Gita says that all action is carried out by the gunas. Ramana Maharshi says that all action is predetermined, even the smallest. The only man's freedom is to be identified with the actor or to not be identified. Patanjali says that the universe exists in order that the Seer knows his true nature. So that he discovers that it is not the jiva. Therefore all Sadhana should make the sense of being a separate entity comes to an end. Which is the correct Sadhana? I think that the true Sadhana is not an action. It is to have a state of alert in each action to discover that the jiva doesn't exist, that is product of Prarabdha Karma and that I am not the jiva. For that reason Ramana Maharshi advises to ask Who am I? in each action. I am not the actor. All action, all will, is a movement of the gunas like an automatic answer to the internal and external pressures. I am only the seer of that movement. This is the Sadhana. And when the mind becomes purified of the ego-sense, perhaps the liberation of the illusion is close. I wait that my (bad) English is understood. Regards. Pablo. _______ ¿Lo probaste? Correo gratis y para toda la vida en http://correo..ar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 Namaste Gummuluruji: I fully agree with your assertion using the statement of Swami Chinmayanandaji. The entire discussion on the caterpillar-butterfly brought lots of insights on the fundamental question on Self-realization. The focal point of the caterpillar-butterfly example is 'spontenity' and this is quite vital for resolving the philsophical issues. Everything in nature happens sponteneously and only we assume that we have control over all outcomes. According to Bhagavad Gita (Chapter 2 Verse 46) we only have the rights to conduct actions and have no rights over the outcome. The outcome is determined by the mystic power known as Ishwara. The yoga path (Karma, Bhakti and Jnana) as suggested in the Bhagavad Gita is to help us to understand that we should learn to accept and adopt the spontaneity of the Nature. It is also true that all our actions through the body-mind-intellect entity is insignificant. This may partly explain why we have to be detached from the results while performing our actions. Any statement that attributes that "sadhana" will take us to "Self-realization" is a contradiction to the yoga path described in Bhagavad Gita. Our "sadhanas" should be also spontaneous actions without looking for any results! At the most we can say is that "Self-realization" is a mystic experience - a spontaneous transformation of our attitude just like the transformation of caterpillar to the butterfly. Most of our conjectures including that of Gummuluruji can't be proven wrong merely by using logical explanations and conceptual frameworks. We can go a step further from Swami Chinmayanandaji regarding arguements on the correctnes of statement and the level of our understanding. The level of our understanding is ever changing and will reach the highest potential at the time of Self-realization. Until then we should be humble enough to admit our limitations! warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > Shri Chinmayananda-ji used to say > in his discourses that every argument (statement) is correct > at the level of understanding at which it is made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 Namaste Brian, > > Why would any of us otherwise indulge in good practice of meditation, > pranyama and so on, if all we had to do was wait for Ishwara's time for us > to be enlightened, and it would happen then anyway? > > It is down to us to accelerate the process as far as we can - and it seems > that this is one element of Hinduism that I firmly reject - that only those > of the right caste may take certain paths. I agree entirely with your conclusion about the importance of an individual's effort. BTW the path is dependent mostly on one's personal inclinations in conjunction with the Guru. > Each of us > should devote as much time to meditation and experiencing transcendental > consciousness as possible. "By that regular and long term practice shall you > achieve liberation." (Patanjali) > It is good to see some mention of Sadhana rather than endless discussion about the triad of knower, knowledge and subject etc. Do you practice vedantic or vipasanna style of meditation? > It may be that how much progress we can make IS dependent of our "karmic > starting point" - but to suggest that we cannot influence our spiritual > growth flies in the face of experience. > Very well put. Here is a quote from a previous Sringeri Jagadguru on this subject. >> When we see a nail on the wall we cannot see what exact length of the nail is embedded in the wall. How much effort is required to pull out the nail depends on how deeply the nail is embedded in the wall. We do not desist from the attempt to pull out the nail simply because we happen to be ignorant of the length of the nail in the wall or of the number and intensity of the strokes which drove it in. Rather we persist and persevere in pulling it out. If we do not succeed in the first few attempts, we increase the number and the intensity of our present efforts to pull it out. The nail in the wall represents the obstacles which arise in our present life due to the wrong use of our free will in the past. Just as we persevere to pull out the nail from the wall, we should make persistent efforts to counteract the ill effects of our past actions. We are bound to pull out the nail sooner or later. Similarly, we are bound to overcome all the obstacles which we face in our life, if we try hard enough. >> regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 > According to Bhagavad Gita (Chapter 2 > Verse 46) we only have the rights to conduct actions and have no > rights over the outcome. The outcome is determined by the mystic power > known as Ishwara. The yoga path (Karma, Bhakti and Jnana) as suggested > in the Bhagavad Gita is to help us to understand that we should learn > to accept and adopt the spontaneity of the Nature. It is also true > that all our actions through the body-mind-intellect entity is > insignificant. This may partly explain why we have to be detached from > the results while performing our actions. > There is a reason why a spiritual aspirant dedicates the results of his actions to Ishwara - to gain Chitta Suddhi. He is fully aware of THIS result of his actions - otherwise why would anyone give up the results of their actions? You give up the 'small' so you can gain the 'big'. I agree with Brian Milnes that one has to pursue the path to the best of one's ability. Otherwise why would Sankara stress the importance of a human birth etc in Vivekachudamni? Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2001 Report Share Posted August 30, 2001 Namaste Sri Sundarji: The Karma Yagna postulated by the Gitacharya expect the Kartha to conduct the duties without focusing on the results. The trade-offs such as giving something to gain a lot come from materialistic attitude and no spiritual aspirant should pursue that path. Let me give an example: When a tiger chases a deer to hunt, both run - tiger run as fast as it can to hunt and the deer as fast as it can to escape. Sometimes the tiger wins and other times the deer wins. They both pursue with the best of their ability but still there is no guaranteed success or failure. This is part of the nature and the principle of spontaneity. Actions are spontaneous and results are spontaneous and that is the natural law and no one can (except the Brahman) is fully aware of the outcome! Some tigers do die of starvation and some deers also die due to strangulation. In Nature, except the human species always spontaneously conduct their actions with the best of their ability. We tried to understand the outcome using incomplete understanding of the outcomes and fail to provide the best of our ability. If we learn to adopt the Nature's path of spontaneity, we will do our best and leave it to the Lord (the mystical unknown power or Ishwara) to decide the outcome. Shankara's stress of human birth also focuses on our "True Divine Nature." As I (and also Sri Gummuluruji) have said before, there are more than one framework that explain the path of Self-realization. Each of us possess different levels of understanding of various frameworks and we have to contemplate within to reach the path of spontaneity. We are like Arjuna with so many questions for which we do not see coherent answers even when the answers are provided by none other than the ParaBrahman - Sri Krishna. The statement, 'Leave everything to the Ishwara to decide' only refers to the outcome of our actions and it is still our responsibility to conduct the actions spontaneously and accept the outcome as the "Prasad." This Prasad Buddhi will clean and eventually we will have "Chitta Suddhi." All our 'sadhanas' should be diverted to cultivate spontaneity and we should humble ourselves and accept everything that we do including the sadhana is His Prasadam! warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan> wrote: > > > There is a reason why a spiritual aspirant dedicates the results of > his actions to Ishwara - to gain Chitta Suddhi. He is fully aware of > THIS result of his actions - otherwise why would anyone give up the > results of their actions? > > You give up the 'small' so you can gain the 'big'. I agree with Brian > Milnes that one has to pursue the path to the best of one's ability. > Otherwise why would Sankara stress the importance of a human birth > etc in Vivekachudamni? > > Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2001 Report Share Posted August 30, 2001 namaste. My posts on this topic might have been misconstrued by some members (particularly, I suspect shri Sundar Rajan, shri Brian Milnes). I am not saying and I haven't said anywhere that the jIvA should just sit there and wait for the call from Ishwara. The jIvA should continue to do work (kurvanneva iha karmANi, IshA upaniShad). What I said and what I still say is: let the jIvA not claim that the work is done by him/her to achieve something. As shri Ram Chandran expanded later on, it is the spontaneity of the transformation that is to be recognized. As long as the jIvA thinks "I am accelerating this process of quest for self-realization; I am doing such and such, that much more earnestly than anyone; ....", there is no moksha (as per my understanding). I have never advocated no sAdhana; sAdhanA is extremely important. But let there be transformation in thought about the doership. Regards Gummuluru Murthy -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2001 Report Share Posted August 30, 2001 Namaste Sri RamChandranji: > > The Karma Yagna postulated by the Gitacharya expect the Kartha to > conduct the duties without focusing on the results. The trade-offs > such as giving something to gain a lot come from materialistic > attitude and no spiritual aspirant should pursue that path. I suspect my statement was a little loose. I had posted my understanding of Karma yoga before to this group advaitin/message/9332 and this I believe is consistent with Sri Gummuluruji(as acknowledged by him in a later posting) and others. I still contend that a spiritual aspirant while doing work without focusing on the result of that work is perfectly conscious as to why he is doing that. He is doing it because he is a 'amratatvam icchan' (wishing to get immortality - Katha Up II.1.2). This Faith (Patanjali calls it Shraddha in yoga sutra 20) is the awareness that "This Yoga is alone is the means for me to attain liberation". > In Nature, except the human species always spontaneously conduct > their actions with the best of their ability. Of course animals are spotaneous. Why? because they cannot discriminate. Animals are incapable of discriminating between good and bad and accordingly deciding to do or avoid any act. They just perform whatever comes to their mind and reap the resultant fruit. > > The statement, 'Leave everything to the Ishwara to decide' only refers > to the outcome of our actions and it is still our responsibility to > conduct the actions spontaneously and accept the outcome as the > "Prasad." The only human being who acts totally spontaneously is the Jnani because his sense of doership is completely burnt by the power of knowledge. For everyone else, there needs to be a conscious training to surrender the fruits of action. I am not sure one can pursue a path of spontaniety. Spontaniety is the result of total surrender either through bhakti or jnana, after which one becomes a instrument of Ishwara and all one's actions are actually Ishwara's. regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2001 Report Share Posted August 31, 2001 Namaste Sundarji: Just like the Self-realization, Spontaneity has to happen spontaneously! A true Karmayogi acts spontaneosly without losing an iota of his/her discriminating intelligence. The entire Gita stresses the importance of "changing the attitude" and keeping the discriminatory buddhi fully intact. Once again the transformation happens through the "unknown mystic power," which we call "Ishwara Kripa" (God's Grace). Ishwara Kripa causes the following spontaenous events to take place quite often: When a child falls into a pool of water, few jumps spontaneously to rescue the child; During natural disasters such as flood, earthquake, fire, etc., people come forward spontaneously to help the fellow human beings. Everyone of us have acted sometime or other in our life acted spontaneously! warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan> wrote: > ....... > The only human being who acts totally spontaneously is the Jnani > because his sense of doership is completely burnt by the power of > knowledge. For everyone else, there needs to be a conscious training > to surrender the fruits of action. > > I am not sure one can pursue a path of spontaniety. Spontaniety is > the result of total surrender either through bhakti or jnana, after > which one becomes a instrument of Ishwara and all one's actions are > actually Ishwara's. > > regards > Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 Namaste Sri Ramji, > Namaste Sri Sundarji: > > The trade-offs > such as giving something to gain a lot come from materialistic > attitude and no spiritual aspirant should pursue that path. > Really!. Not only you will find such exchanges are fully valid in a spiritual sense, there is also support for my statement ( You give up the 'small' so you can gain the 'big') in the scriptures. Here is the commentary on sloka #8 (Renunciation means dedication of all activities, secular as well as sacred, to God) of Narada Bhakti Sutras by Swami Prabhavananda published by Ramakrishna Math: The word renunciation sounds grim; but, in fact, it means renouncing the smaller for the greater, sweetened milk for ice cream; you receive something better in exchange. regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 Mamaste! Renunciation actually means placing all our problems,desires,ambitions ,dreams ,fears and doubts at the Feet of the Lord and thereby attaining complete Peace and Bliss with full Faith and Trust in Him that He will do what is best for us always,as the Lord is the Mother,Father,Grand Father,Supporter,Well Wisher and the only unfailing Refuge we have.-! When a child brings a fruit and places it in the Mother's hand,She will see if it is ripe and fit for the child and pick and give the sweetest fruit to the child in return!God's Love is probably infinite times more than human mother's. Ananda Sagar -- Sundar Rajan <avsundarrajan wrote: > Namaste Sri Ramji, > > Namaste Sri Sundarji: > > > > The trade-offs > > such as giving something to gain a lot come from > materialistic > > attitude and no spiritual aspirant should pursue > that path. > > > Really!. Not only you will find such exchanges are > fully valid in a > spiritual sense, there is also support for my > statement ( You give up > the 'small' so you can gain the 'big') in the > scriptures. > > Here is the commentary on sloka #8 (Renunciation > means dedication of > all activities, secular as well as sacred, to God) > of Narada Bhakti > Sutras by Swami Prabhavananda published by > Ramakrishna Math: > > The word renunciation sounds grim; but, in fact, it > means renouncing > the smaller for the greater, sweetened milk for ice > cream; you > receive something better in exchange. > > regards > Sundar Rajan > > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 Namaste Sagar-Ji and Sundar-Ji, Actually both of you are saying the same thing though in different terms. And I feel this is quite an important point that is sometimes missed by people. Renunciation is not a negative act, infact it is quite the contrary. In renunciation one acts without attachment to the results. Thus one allows Prakriti to work out the best possible outcome for the present act, ofcourse given the past karma, and then present it to the Jiva at the appropriate moment. The outcome is best possible in the sense of promoting harmony, which is equivalent to promoting peace = happiness. Although in renunciation one offers the act to the Self or God or Brahman, it is always Prakriti that handles the rest. Working out the details of an action is never in the domain of the Self. Even Gita confirms this. Regards Shrinivas > Mamaste! > Renunciation actually means placing all our > problems,desires,ambitions ,dreams ,fears and doubts > at the Feet of the Lord and thereby attaining complete > Peace and Bliss with full Faith and Trust in Him that > He will do what is best for us always,as the Lord is > > Really!. Not only you will find such exchanges are > > fully valid in a > > spiritual sense, there is also support for my > > statement ( You give up > > the 'small' so you can gain the 'big') in the > > scriptures. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 Namaste Sundarji: The attitude of a spiritual person is beautifully summarized by Swami Chinmayananda by the following quotaion: "What you have is all His Gift to you; What you do with what you have is your Gift to Him." As Sagarji pointed out, everything belongs to Him and the question of exchange really doesn't arise. Our reading of Scriptures is an educational process and our understanding progresses with the knowledge gained. Spritual progress is a continued process and with maturity, our attitude changes. At the initial stage of our understanding, we treat 'renunciation' equivalent to giving a small for a big. When our spiritual progress reaches the highest level, we realize that we possess nothing and the question of giving doesn't arise! warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan> wrote: > Namaste Sri Ramji, > Really!. Not only you will find such exchanges are fully valid in a > spiritual sense, there is also support for my statement ( You give up > the 'small' so you can gain the 'big') in the scriptures. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2001 Report Share Posted September 7, 2001 Namaste! I think that true Renunciation is the complete forgetfulness of the personal self. If the renunciation is to get a result (positive or negative, "spiritual or materialistic") it is not renunciation, but only a new form to get that we wish. The renunciation it is not a positive act, but it is consequence of the View of the uselessness of the all individual (separate) acts to reaches the Truth. Regards. Pablo _______ ¿Lo probaste? Correo gratis y para toda la vida en http://correo..ar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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