Guest guest Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 namaste. The following article in the newspaper Times of India may be of interest to the List members. The article says the basis for the article are two research papers in the journal SCIENCE. The article may be accessed at http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=348694185 Regards Gummuluru Murthy - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 >namaste. > >The following article in the newspaper Times of India may be >of interest to the List members. The article says the basis >for the article are two research papers in the journal SCIENCE. >The article may be accessed at > ><http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=348694185>http://tim\ esofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=348694185 > >Regards >Gummuluru Murthy >- Murthy gaaru - I read the article - it points out what is known as "self-fulfilling prophesy" - The conclusion is based on how one starts his hypothesis. It is not that mind works hard or soft but What is more important to address by science is what makes the mind to work at all! - Then only they can arrive at Vasanas which are the cause or kaaraNa for the body-mind-complex as well as samsaara. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2001 Report Share Posted November 2, 2001 On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, K. Sadananda wrote: > > Murthy gaaru - I read the article - it points out what is known as > "self-fulfilling prophesy" - The conclusion is based on how one > starts his hypothesis. > > It is not that mind works hard or soft but What is more important > to address by science is what makes the mind to work at all! - Then > only they can arrive at Vasanas which are the cause or kaaraNa for > the body-mind-complex as well as samsaara. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > -- namaste shri Sadananda garu, I agree with your assessment of the direction of the present-day research on deep-sleep. I think the fundamental point is missed. I cannot see how the mind would be working very hard during deep-sleep. I read in one of the upanishads (muNDAka or br^ihadAraNyaka) that the mind is lke a bird or an animal tied to a post by a rope. The mind wanders around and when it is tired, just like the animal tied to the post, returns back to its home and disolves in the Atman. There are two points which arise as an aside to this discussion and I wonder if you or other members care to comment about it. 1. It is true that, after deep-sleep, the jIvA feels refreshed. How is that refreshing accomplished? Is the refreshing-feeling a direct consequence of deep-sleep? Or, are we wrongly ascribing it to deep-sleep? 2. There was a discussion some time ago about whether the jIvA not being the same from one instant to the next and specifically, is it the same jIvA that has gone to sleep that is arising the next morning? I came across an answer to this recently in BrahmasUtrAbhAShya III.2.9. Shri shankara says it is the same jIvA that goes to bed and the one that wakes up the next morning. In answering an objection, he cites many evidences including the continuity of karma, memory, and also uses the analogy that a bottle of water sealed and thrown into Ganges, maintains its individuality and keeps the characteristics and can be distinguished later. But, yet, I do not understand: when we see an old acquiantance many years later, we say we saw the same Devadatta that we knew before. Apart from Atman, what is this common characteristic that we see that leads us to say, it is the same Devadatta? Are we seeing the embodiment and saying it is the same? Are we seeing the memory of the other person and saying it is the same? Or, are we wrong in saying it is the same Devadatta. I think shri shankara justifies in VivekacUDAmaNi (if I recall correctly) calling it the same Devadatta. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2001 Report Share Posted November 2, 2001 advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > 1. It is true that, after deep-sleep, the jIvA feels refreshed. > How is that refreshing accomplished? Is the refreshing-feeling > a direct consequence of deep-sleep? Or, are we wrongly ascribing > it to deep-sleep? > Namaste Shri Gummuluru-Ji, Let me explain my understanding of this phenomenon. To start with we need a working model to explain the events at the level of vyavahara. Here is one model, not sure if it fits completely within the framework of advaita. There are three enitities: Self/I, my Mind and Prakriti. Self/I is the witness and witnesses my Mind. Prakriti is the one who manipulates the images projected on my mind. 1. In deep sleep, Mind does not exit. The only interaction that I have with Prakriti is via my mind. Hence there is no way for me to tell if Prakriti exists while I am in deep sleep. At most we can speculate that She is in a dormant condition. 2. The transition form Deep sleep to wake up state is quite complex. We pass through many states during this duration. This transition is responsible for the refreshing feeling and not the deep sleep itself. I am quite confident that it is transition from deep sleep to wakeup that is responsible for the refreshing feeling. At the same time I am almost sure that this model that I describe above is over simplistic when it comes to analyzing the state of deep sleep. For example, if we make Prakriti dormant when in deep sleep, how do I wake up at all !! Self cannot do that. For Self to do anything Self needs to interact with Prakriti and for that Self needs a mind. Based on the commentary of Shri Jnaneshwar on Chapter 15, one can devise a model wherein there are two minds instead of one. One is the mind that exists in deep sleep. This is the kutastha/ akshara purusha of Chap 15, Gita. This is the unchanging, quite an inert mind. Other mind is superimposed on this unchanging, inert mind. This is the mind that we normally refer to. This is the kshara purusha of Chap 15 Gita. With this model, Prakriti can exist in deep sleep. Though she is almost dormant, but not non-existent. Also this model prevents equating deep sleep = samadhi. For wake up and dream states we dont need such a complicated model. However since the discussion was related to deep sleep we had to invoke this model. Best regrads Shrinivas Best regards Shrinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2001 Report Share Posted November 4, 2001 Namaste, The advaitic paradigm is in the metaphor of the two birds, in Mundaka Upanishad [iII:i:1]: dvaa suparNaa sayujaa sakhaayaa samana.n vR^ikshaM parishhasvajaate . tayoranyaH pippala.n svaadvatti anashnananyo.abhichaakasiiti .. "Two birds, companions always united, cling to the self-same tree. Of these two, the one eats the sweet fruit, and the other looks on without eating." Whenever the triad of "experiencer, experienced, and experience" is taken up for discussion, duality is exposed; this can be resolved only by recourse to advaita. Jnaneshvara does it in the last verse of Changadeva Pasashti [65 verses addressed to Yogi Vhangadeva]: nideparaute nidaijaNe | jaagR^itii giLonii jaagaNe | kele taise.n guMphaNe | j~naanadevo mhaNe || That which transcends sleep, and That which transcends wakefulness, is the has to be realised. Ramana Maharshi [Talks, pp. 561-564] also explains it like-wise: ".....The state of the j~naanii is : atijaagrat [beyond wakefullness] and atisushhupti [beyond sleep]. It is the state of perfect awareness and of perfect stillness combined.; it is also the interval between two successive thoughts.....If you are free from thoughts and yet aware, you are That Perfect Being." Regards, Sunder advaitin, sgadkari2001 wrote: > advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > 1. It is true that, after deep-sleep, the jIvA feels refreshed. > > How is that refreshing accomplished? Is the refreshing-feeling > > a direct consequence of deep-sleep? Or, are we wrongly ascribing > > it to deep-sleep? > > > > Namaste Shri Gummuluru-Ji, > > Let me explain my understanding of this phenomenon. Shrinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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