Guest guest Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 namaste. I changed the subject title to reflect more what we are discussing. On Fri, 2 Nov 2001 sgadkari2001 wrote: > > Namaste Shri Gummuluru-Ji, > > Let me explain my understanding of this phenomenon. > > To start with we need a working model to explain the events > at the level of vyavahara. Here is one model, not sure if > it fits completely within the framework of advaita. > > There are three enitities: Self/I, my Mind and Prakriti. > Self/I is the witness and witnesses my Mind. Prakriti is > the one who manipulates the images projected on my mind. > namaste and thanks for the viewpoint. I like to put some queries. Are there three entities? As I understand, it is the Self/I which appears as various entities. Further, what you call prakr^iti and what you call mind are not different either. Our ignorance (avidyA) projects the Self/I as prakr^iti and mind is part of that projection. Please recall saundaryalaharI, verse 1 shivashshaktyAyuktyo... We cannot separate brahman and mAyA. > 1. In deep sleep, Mind does not exit. The only interaction > that I have with Prakriti is via my mind. Hence there is > no way for me to tell if Prakriti exists while I am in > deep sleep. At most we can speculate that She is in a dormant > condition. > The above implies separation of I, prakr^iti and the mind. The object (prakr^iti) does not exist in deep-sleep (please refer to earlier thread on deep-sleep state of a few months ago). > 2. The transition form Deep sleep to wake up state is > quite complex. We pass through many states during this > duration. This transition is responsible for the refreshing > feeling and not the deep sleep itself. > > I am quite confident that it is transition from deep sleep to > wakeup that is responsible for the refreshing feeling. Is it possible that you can give a reference to this (transition from deep-sleep to wake-up state going through many 'states'). I am not aware of this. Either a reference, or a basis for saying this is much appreciated. > At the same time I am almost sure that this model that I describe > above is over simplistic when it comes to analyzing the state of > deep sleep. For example, if we make Prakriti dormant when in > deep sleep, how do I wake up at all !! Self cannot do that. > For Self to do anything Self needs to interact with Prakriti and > for that Self needs a mind. Based on the commentary of > Shri Jnaneshwar on Chapter 15, one can devise a model wherein > there are two minds instead of one. One is the mind that > exists in deep sleep. This is the kutastha/ akshara purusha > of Chap 15, Gita. This is the unchanging, quite an inert mind. > Other mind is superimposed on this unchanging, inert mind. > This is the mind that we normally refer to. This is the kshara > purusha of Chap 15 Gita. With this model, Prakriti can exist in deep > sleep. Though she is almost dormant, but not non-existent. > Also this model prevents equating deep sleep = samadhi. > I do not know much about shri Jnaneshwar's thinking. As you said in some other context that you will be elaborating on Jnaneshwar's commentary, I look forward to it. Finally, I have some concern re using the word 'model' in this discussion. Model, by the very word, is not reality but an approximation to explain the reality. I think our interest is to know the reality, and not to find another way to explain the reality. [...] Finally, I like to put forward the following answer to my earlier question > advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > 1. It is true that, after deep-sleep, the jIvA feels refreshed. > > How is that refreshing accomplished? Is the refreshing-feeling > > a direct consequence of deep-sleep? Or, are we wrongly ascribing > > it to deep-sleep? > > The deep-sleep is the natural state of a human. What I mean by that is: it is in this state the human is closest to his/her nature of turIyA. Rejuvenation of the jIvA after deep-sleep comes about because of this proximity to turIyA, experience of closeness, a sort of recharging of a battery. My feeling is: It (the rejuvenation after deep-sleep) is not due to the usually-given explanation that the body and mind have taken rest and hence are rejuvenated, but the explanation probably lies in the closeness of the human to what is his/her true nature during deep sleep. Any comments are appreciated. > Best regrads > Shrinivas > Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > To start with we need a working model to explain the events > > at the level of vyavahara. Here is one model, not sure if > > it fits completely within the framework of advaita. > > > > There are three enitities: Self/I, my Mind and Prakriti. > > Self/I is the witness and witnesses my Mind. Prakriti is > > the one who manipulates the images projected on my mind. > > > > namaste and thanks for the viewpoint. I like to put some queries. > Are there three entities? As I understand, it is the Self/I > which appears as various entities. Further, what you call prakr^iti > and what you call mind are not different either. Our ignorance > (avidyA) projects the Self/I as prakr^iti and mind is part of > that projection. Please recall saundaryalaharI, verse 1 > shivashshaktyAyuktyo... We cannot separate brahman and mAyA. Namsate Shri Gummuluru-Ji, I have been presenting an analysis based on my understanding of the nature of reality. No claims are being made that my viewpoint is completely in agreement with say Shri Shankara or Shri Jnaneshwara or any one else. Are there three entities ? Well, this is the model that I use to understand Vyavahara. I believe it is more closer to the Shankhya philosophy in the sense that there is some duality here. However the Self is an all important entity in this model. Prakriti's sole existence is for the sake of the Self. Prakriti, works out only those desires of the mind which get the stamp of approval of the Self. (One could cite Chapter 14, Gita for justification here). Even in this model, creation is just a play of the Self. And Prakriti can be viewed as the creative energy of the Self. And Self is the only being that exists. mind by itself is lifeless. And prakriti is not a being. Her independent existence is at best a speculation which can never be verified. Thus even in this model Self is all that exists. Thus in spirit it is quite close to Advaita. > Finally, I have some concern re using the word 'model' in this > discussion. Model, by the very word, is not reality but an > approximation to explain the reality. I think our interest is > to know the reality, and not to find another way to explain > the reality. You can either call it a model or a veiwpoint. When we call it a veiwpoint or darshana, it is considered an acceptable terminology. In think when we are in this world of name and form, we are limited beings. Veiwpoint is probably the best that we can do. May be I am wrong here. > > 2. The transition form Deep sleep to wake up state is > > quite complex. We pass through many states during this > > duration. This transition is responsible for the refreshing > > feeling and not the deep sleep itself. > > > > I am quite confident that it is transition from deep sleep to > > wakeup that is responsible for the refreshing feeling. > > Is it possible that you can give a reference to this (transition > from deep-sleep to wake-up state going through many 'states'). > I am not aware of this. Either a reference, or a basis for > saying this is much appreciated. > I am using my own understanding here. In deep sleep Universe does not exist. When I wake up I find the universe out there. So somewhere in the transition I must have interacted with Prakriti to create the universe. Also you say something similar below. While creating the universe, we approach the state of Ishvara or Saguna Brahma and this contact with the state of Ishvara is probably responsible for the rejuvenation. > > The deep-sleep is the natural state of a human. What I mean by that > is: it is in this state the human is closest to his/her nature of > turIyA. Rejuvenation of the jIvA after deep-sleep comes about because > of this proximity to turIyA, experience of closeness, a sort of > recharging of a battery. > > My feeling is: It (the rejuvenation after deep-sleep) is not due to > the usually-given explanation that the body and mind have taken > rest and hence are rejuvenated, but the explanation probably lies > in the closeness of the human to what is his/her true nature > during deep sleep. > > Regards > Gummuluru Murthy We are saying almost the same thing here. The difference being you say we are in turiya throughout deep sleep. My position is we approach turiya in transition. Best regards Shrinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 ---------------------> > My feeling is: It (the rejuvenation after > deep-sleep) is not due to > the usually-given explanation that the body and mind > have taken > rest and hence are rejuvenated, but the explanation > probably lies > in the closeness of the human to what is his/her > true nature > during deep sleep. > > Any comments are appreciated. > > > Best regrads > > Shrinivas --------------------- The human's true nature during deep sleep or during dreaming or during waking is THE SAME AT ALL TIMES. There is absolutely no justification in thinking that the human is closer to his/her true nature during deep sleep state or during any of the other two states as well!All the three states are verily due to the Human's IGNORANCE! Ignorence of It's own TRUE NATURE which is nothing but SAT CHIT ANANDA. THE QUESTION OF rejuvination DOES NOT ARISE ATALL! My feeling tired or my needing rejuvination by deep sleep is a myth! I am always in BLISS. "aham brahmaasmi" is the Maha vakya for the Human to constantly think about in order to get out of it's ignorence and to BE ITSELF,which IT TRUELY IS! Hari Om! Swaminarayan Find a job, post your resume. http://careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Swaminarayan T wrote: > > The human's true nature during deep sleep or during > dreaming or during waking is THE SAME AT ALL TIMES. > There is absolutely no justification in thinking that > the human is closer to his/her true nature during deep > sleep state or during any of the other two states as > well! namaste. The following is my understanding on this, I think, supported by shrutI statements. The human attains naturally and normally his true nature in deep sleep. That may be a temporary attainment but still, is closest to the true nature in deep-sleep. Chandogya upanishad vi.8.1 states (Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan's translation) "Then UddAlaka AruNi said to his son, Shvetaketu, Learn from me, my dear, the true nature of sleep. When a person here sleeps, as it is called, then, my dear, he has reached pure being. He has gone to his own. Therefore they say he sleeps for he has gone to his own." In the expansion given underneath the translation, Radhakrishnan says "... In the condition of deep-sleep, personal consciousness subsides and the self is said to be absorbed in the Highest Self. Speech, mind and the senses rest. Only the breath is active. the jIvA, the living soul returns for a while to the deeper self in order to recover from the fatigue." > All the three states are verily due to the > Human's IGNORANCE! Ignorence of It's own TRUE NATURE > which is nothing but SAT CHIT ANANDA. > That is true. Ignorance (avidyA) is indeed responsible for us to visualize ourselves to be in the three states. > THE QUESTION OF rejuvination DOES NOT ARISE ATALL! My > feeling tired or my needing rejuvination by deep sleep > is a myth! I am always in BLISS. > I am afraid that statement can only be made while we are in unision with the Absolute paramArtha. As long as we are in our body-mind-ego-consciousness, we have to acknowledge the presence of the three states. We may intellectually recognize them to be unreal, but yet, we cannot avoid being in the three states. I am putting together an article on deep-sleep which I hope to post soon and I look forward to your incisive comments on it. > "aham brahmaasmi" is the Maha vakya for the Human to > constantly think about in order to get out of it's > ignorence and to BE ITSELF,which IT TRUELY IS! > > Hari Om! > > Swaminarayan > Regards Gummuluru Murthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 namaste. An addendum to what I wrote yesterday, quoting Chandogya upanaishad vi.8.1. shri shankara further comments on this mantra as part of brahmasUtrA bhAShya III.ii.7. I give swami Gambhirananda's translation below: "... The idea implied (in ch. u. vi.8.1) being that a man while asleep remains established in his true nature. Moreover there is no time when the soul is not in union with brahman, since one's own nature is unchangeable. But the statement, "he attains his own Self" is made, because in dream and wakefulness the soul seems to assume another's garb under the influence of the limiting adjuncts with which it remains associated, whereas in sleep that garb falls off, so that in comparison with the earlier stages, sleep is sought to be spoken of as the state of assumption of the real nature. ..." Regards Gummuluru Murthy --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 for the normal man only the three states - waking, dreaming and deep sleep - are open to observation and analysis and hence only they are relevant for philosophical enquiry. Of the three states it is only in the state of deep sleep that the Self is said to abide in itself. So when you fall asleep what do you do? Nothing. You just give up all action - both physical and mental - lose all will and thoroughly relax. Simply put you relenquish all connection with the body and mind. Do the same thing for saadhana - keep a straight spine so you don't fall asleep; relax your box and mind absolutely and know yourself. Find a job, post your resume. http://careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2001 Report Share Posted November 11, 2001 --- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Swaminarayan T wrote: > > THE QUESTION OF rejuvination DOES NOT ARISE ATALL! > My > > feeling tired or my needing rejuvination by deep > sleep > > is a myth! I am always in BLISS. > > > > I am afraid that statement can only be made while we > are > in unision with the Absolute paramArtha. As long as > we are > in our body-mind-ego-consciousness, we have to > acknowledge > the presence of the three states. We may > intellectually > recognize them to be unreal, but yet, we cannot > avoid > being in the three states. -------------------- well said Murthyji, That is precisely why our great Acharya has given to us in his Laghu Vakya vritti the following message: "Dehaatma dhivat Brahmaatmadhi dhardye krita krityayaa Yada tadaayam mriyataam Muktosou naatra samshayahaa." " You are indeed liberated here and now (In this waking state) irrespective of when ever or where ever you die,IF ONLY you have the conviction that you are BRAHMAN ,just in the same way as you are having the conviction that you are this BODY. We are intellectually analysing all these and we can only do so in our WAKING STATE! It is a pity that we cannot make any such effort while we are in the other two states, viz, Dream or Deep Sleep State! Atleast ,while in deep sleep we are in our PARAMARTHIKA State. But Lo! Woe befalls us in our Dream State! We are neither here nor there! --------------------- > I am putting together an article on deep-sleep which > I hope > to post soon and I look forward to your incisive > comments > on it. ----------- I look forward to your posting on deep sleep and I am sure all of us will benefit a lot by it. Hari Om! Swaminarayan. > > Find a job, post your resume. http://careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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