Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 This email is in response principally to the post from Pieter Schoonheim Samara on 'Beyond the Spectrum' but also partly to the first chapter summary of 'The Souls journey to its destiny' from PBV Rajan. (Incidentally, before commenting, I want to emphasise that I do not want to discourage the latter from posting - this sort of material is relevant and questions do need to be asked when there is lack of understanding. This must be the principal purpose of the group.) We presumably all acknowledge (though most will not directly realise this for themselves) that the world with its objects and its individuals is all an illusion. There is in fact only One; all apparent plurality is a superimposition of name and form mistakenly made through ignorance (adhyaasa). This is the truth claimed by Advaita. All so-called knowledge, disciplines, paths etc. etc. are themselves part of this illusion, taken up by the mind as part of an imagined process of coming to an intellectual appreciation of this truth. That is the most that can be achieved whilst still labouring under the delusion. Thereafter, one endeavours to act in recognition of that understanding until such time as a genuine realisation of the truth takes place. Having said all this, it is my understanding that there are certain ideas and traditional pursuits that form a part of Advaitin tradition. These include such things as the chatushtaya sampatti of Shankara, the concepts of aha~Nkaara, kosha-s, guNa-s, maayaa etc. Other elements from related traditions such as SaaMkhya, Kashmir Shaivism and others(?) often spill over and become confused with pure Advaita so that they also become legitimate topics of discussion. However (and I may be wrong on this!) I did not think that kundalini yoga was a related tradition. It has always struck me that identifying points on the spine and sources of energy etc. is such a meaningless thing to do when we have already acknowledged that we are nothing whatsoever to do with the body which, after all, is only food. I do not particularly mind receiving posts on the topic - after all I am not obliged to read them and their length is still much less than that of material reposted when members reply to messages and neglect to erase the old material first. But it seems that, if what I am saying is true, then this subject is not of particular interest to most readers of this list and Pieter would benefit much more if he posted to a more relevant list. Also, since what I have seen suggests that he has a good understanding, others on such a list would also then be able to benefit, too. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 Hi Dennis-ji, Speaking not as an advaitin co-moderator but as a listmember, I share your thoughts about kundalini yoga. I am certainly not enthusiastic about kundalini topics. And because I haven't read the K-related postings too carefully, I don't know whether the writers have tried to link them to the topics appropriate for this list. There are many people who are fascinated and compelled by K, and who have made its study their path. There are several K-related lists that are active, as I understand. Who knows, maybe Pieter is already posting to some of them... --Greg At 09:37 PM 12/6/01 +0000, Dennis Waite wrote: >This email is in response principally to the post from Pieter Schoonheim >Samara on 'Beyond the Spectrum' but also partly to the first chapter summary >of 'The Souls journey to its destiny' from PBV Rajan. (Incidentally, before >commenting, I want to emphasise that I do not want to discourage the latter >from posting - this sort of material is relevant and questions do need to be >asked when there is lack of understanding. This must be the principal >purpose of the group.) .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2001 Report Share Posted December 7, 2001 --- Gregory Goode <goode wrote: > Hi Dennis-ji, > I share your thoughts about kundalini > yoga. I am certainly not enthusiastic about > kundalini topics. > At 09:37 PM 12/6/01 +0000, Dennis Waite wrote: > >This email is in response principally to the post > from Pieter on 'Beyond the Spectrum' but also partly to the first chapter summary > >of 'The Souls journey to its destiny' from PBV > Rajan. TO: Shri Goode and Shri Dennis. Hari OM. I am not a practioner of Kundalini Yoga nor its advocate. I myself was suprised at its inclusion in an englightening book such as the one being posted. However after reading the chapter, which incidentally is the last one, I was convinced that the subject was treated fairly. The techniques and details which Mr. Pieter is going into are not mentioned, but the theoratical connection between vedanta and Kundlaini was brought out, in my humble opinion rationally. I hope this clarifies the matter atleast partially. Pranams. P.B.V.Rajan Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2001 Report Share Posted December 7, 2001 Namste Shri Gregory-Ji and Dennis-Ji, Physical plane where our bodies exist is the lowest plane of existence. The plane where one practises raja-yoga, discrimination or where we deal with perceptions is the plane where much of the discussion in this list is centered. Nadis, Kundalini, chakras exist in some intermediate plane. When we practise discrimination we are simultaneously acting at all levels. At the level of raja yoga it appears as if we are working with perceptions, at the level of nadis the same act may appear to clean some nadi or open some petal of some chakra or raise kudalini to some place, in the physical plane the same act may appear as a release of some harmone or some chemical change or growth in some cells. Thus these different views are not incompatible. It is just that different people choose to focus on different planes. Best regards Shrinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2001 Report Share Posted December 7, 2001 I agree to this topic. Namaste Raju Das. Dennis Waite <dwaite I did not think that kundalini yoga was a related tradition. It has always struck me that identifying points on the spine and sources of energy etc. is such a meaningless thing to do when we have already acknowledged that we are nothing whatsoever to do with the body which, after all, is only food. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2001 Report Share Posted December 9, 2001 >"Dennis Waite" <dwaite .......... But it seems that, if what I am saying is true, then >this subject is not of particular interest to most readers of this list and >Pieter would benefit much more if he posted to a more relevant list. Also, >since what I have seen suggests that he has a good understanding, others on >such a list would also then be able to benefit, too. > >Dennis > Having been recently pushed into the Chief Moderator's position, I must say that I do not disagree with the sentiments of Dennis. Normally these topics slowly disappear due to lack of interest. Any yoga involves sadhana and by definition is only preparatory for the knowledge. While the emphasis of this list remains understanding the adivatic nature of the reality, it has been the polacy of this list, as I understand, not to discourage the discussion on any of the yogas as long as that is done objectively without personal agenda-s getting intermixed with discussion. This is ofcouse not intended to encourage the discussion either since I personally have not studied or practiced Kudalini yoga nor has any interest to study the subject discussion. Hari OM! Sadananda _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2001 Report Share Posted December 10, 2001 I agree with you Sadananda-ji. I also am not interested in how Kundalini Yoga interfaces with the other yogas, nor do I see it as the master blueprint for how all paths work together. Also, as long as the discussion is proceeding responsibly (as it is so far), I see no problem with the Kundalini slant. And as usually happens, if there are no other correspondents in a particular discussion to provide interchange, then like you say, it will probably disappear through attrition. Hari OM! --Greg At 11:45 PM 12/9/01 +0000, Kuntimaddi Sadananda wrote: >>"Dennis Waite" <dwaite >......... > >But it seems that, if what I am saying is true, then >>this subject is not of particular interest to most readers of this list and >>Pieter would benefit much more if he posted to a more relevant list. Also, >>since what I have seen suggests that he has a good understanding, others on >>such a list would also then be able to benefit, too. >> >>Dennis >> > >Having been recently pushed into the Chief Moderator's position, I must say >that I do not disagree with the sentiments of Dennis. Normally these topics >slowly disappear due to lack of interest. Any yoga involves sadhana and by >definition is only preparatory for the knowledge. While the emphasis of >this list remains understanding the adivatic nature of the reality, it has >been the polacy of this list, as I understand, not to discourage the >discussion on any of the yogas as long as that is done objectively without >personal agenda-s getting intermixed with discussion. This is ofcouse not >intended to encourage the discussion either since I personally have not >studied or practiced Kudalini yoga nor has any interest to study the subject >discussion. > >Hari OM! >Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2001 Report Share Posted December 10, 2001 namaste. I like to express my two cents worth of view on this. KunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the transport of cosmic energy from the mUlAdhAra cakra through the suShumna to the sahasrAra. This is described by none other than the bhagavatpAda shri shankarAcArya in saundaryalaharI. Significant number of advaitins are devI-bhaktA-s and the kunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the knowledge associated with shricakra pUjA. Also, as was pointed out by shri Shrinivas earlier, kunDalinI awakening is not in the physical plane; the cakrA-s are not in the physical body. Also, yoga, as enunciated by Patanjali, is also not in the physical plane. Unfortunately, however, the present-day understanding of yoga (and also of kunDalinI) is somehow, limited to the body-aspect only. I was looking in shri Pieter's writings whether he is looking at it as a body-phenomenon or something beyond. I am following the writings and would like to see them on the Advaitin List, if there is no major objection from other members. I have two comments on the writings. 1. The writings are a bit expansive, but different members have different writing styles. I have no problem with that. 2. I would like to ask: are the writings the experiences of Pieter? If they are taken partly from a different source, the writings would be more complete if the reference is provided. There are more than 500 members on the List and I would assume the topic is of interest to at least a few. Certainly, it is for me. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2001 Report Share Posted December 10, 2001 I am not a scholar like many here but wholly agree with Sri Gummuluruji and was going to mention the same, that Sri Shankra has written on this topic elegantly and that many commentaries exist on Saundaryalahari (wave of beauty) and Anandalahari (wave of bliss). Is there a dispute that these are Sri Shankra's works? Sri Ramana has spoken of the Kundalini Shakti and the role it plays in Self-Realization. There need not be any conflict between or contradiction between Advaita Vedanta and Kundalini Yoga. However, as Sri Gummuluruji points out, the nature of the Shakti must be understood at a subtle level. Love to all Harsha Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy] Monday, December 10, 2001 11:39 AM advaitin Re: Inappropriate subjects? namaste. I like to express my two cents worth of view on this. KunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the transport of cosmic energy from the mUlAdhAra cakra through the suShumna to the sahasrAra. This is described by none other than the bhagavatpAda shri shankarAcArya in saundaryalaharI. Significant number of advaitins are devI-bhaktA-s and the kunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the knowledge associated with shricakra pUjA. Also, as was pointed out by shri Shrinivas earlier, kunDalinI awakening is not in the physical plane; the cakrA-s are not in the physical body. Also, yoga, as enunciated by Patanjali, is also not in the physical plane. Unfortunately, however, the present-day understanding of yoga (and also of kunDalinI) is somehow, limited to the body-aspect only. I was looking in shri Pieter's writings whether he is looking at it as a body-phenomenon or something beyond. I am following the writings and would like to see them on the Advaitin List, if there is no major objection from other members. I have two comments on the writings. 1. The writings are a bit expansive, but different members have different writing styles. I have no problem with that. 2. I would like to ask: are the writings the experiences of Pieter? If they are taken partly from a different source, the writings would be more complete if the reference is provided. There are more than 500 members on the List and I would assume the topic is of interest to at least a few. Certainly, it is for me. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2001 Report Share Posted December 10, 2001 Namaste Does Kundalini Yoga or the 7 chakras appear anywhere in the Upanishads? > > Harsha [sMTP:harsha-hkl] > Tuesday, December 11, 2001 9:50 AM > advaitin > RE: Inappropriate subjects? > > I am not a scholar like many here but wholly agree with Sri Gummuluruji > and > was going to mention the same, that Sri Shankra has written on this topic > elegantly and that many commentaries exist on Saundaryalahari (wave of > beauty) and Anandalahari (wave of bliss). Is there a dispute that these > are > Sri Shankra's works? > > Sri Ramana has spoken of the Kundalini Shakti and the role it plays in > Self-Realization. > > There need not be any conflict between or contradiction between Advaita > Vedanta and Kundalini Yoga. However, as Sri Gummuluruji points out, the > nature of the Shakti must be understood at a subtle level. > > Love to all > Harsha > > > Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy] > Monday, December 10, 2001 11:39 AM > advaitin > Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > > > namaste. > > I like to express my two cents worth of view on this. > > KunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the transport of > cosmic energy from the mUlAdhAra cakra through the suShumna > to the sahasrAra. This is described by none other than the > bhagavatpAda shri shankarAcArya in saundaryalaharI. > > Significant number of advaitins are devI-bhaktA-s and the > kunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the knowledge > associated with shricakra pUjA. > > Also, as was pointed out by shri Shrinivas earlier, kunDalinI > awakening is not in the physical plane; the cakrA-s are not in > the physical body. Also, yoga, as enunciated by Patanjali, is > also not in the physical plane. Unfortunately, however, the > present-day understanding of yoga (and also of kunDalinI) > is somehow, limited to the body-aspect only. I was looking > in shri Pieter's writings whether he is looking at it as a > body-phenomenon or something beyond. > > I am following the writings and would like to see them on the > Advaitin List, if there is no major objection from other members. > I have two comments on the writings. > > 1. The writings are a bit expansive, but different members have > different writing styles. I have no problem with that. > > 2. I would like to ask: are the writings the experiences of Pieter? > If they are taken partly from a different source, the writings > would be more complete if the reference is provided. > > There are more than 500 members on the List and I would assume the > topic is of interest to at least a few. Certainly, it is for me. > > > Regards > Gummuluru Murthy > ------ > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2001 Report Share Posted December 10, 2001 Namaste, The subject is dicussed in the Minor Upanishads only: yoga-kundalini yoga-chudamani shandilya bhavana dhyana-binduvaraha nirvana For an in-depth survey, Swami Sivananda's book is available on-line: http://www.thedivinelifesociety.org/download/kundalini.htm Regards, Sunder advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote: > Namaste > > Does Kundalini Yoga or the 7 chakras appear anywhere in the Upanishads? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2001 Report Share Posted December 10, 2001 kshamasva | Kindly pardon the error! CORRECTION of error: these are two separate upanishads: dhyana-bindu varaha S. advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote: > dhyana-binduvaraha > > > advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote: > > Namaste > > > > Does Kundalini Yoga or the 7 chakras appear anywhere in the > Upanishads? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 -- Dear Sri k Kathirasan, It is not possible, for anyone who has actually gone through the Prasana Traya Bhasya ( Shankaras commentarial work on the Principle Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita and the Brahma Sutras, to seriouly believe that 'Saundrayalahari' or 'Anandalahari' are from the pen of Sri Adi Shanaracarya. All serious scholars (Ingallis,Hacker,Potter,Nakamura, Mayadeya. Mahadeven, etc,) have rejected these works as having been auhtored by Shankara. There is not even the slighest hint, in all of Shankaras universally accepted works,that one should "raise his Kundalini from the Muladhara Chakra through the Sushumna to the Sahasrara." Wheather you understand the Kundalini at a gross level or a "subtle" level, it has nothing to do with the Advaita tradition of Sri Bhagavadpada. Shankara catagorically states in his commentary on Gita 13-2, "That even if a man be learned in all the Scriptures, should he be bereft of the TRADITIONAL METHOD OF TEACHING, he should be disregarded as a fool, like a blind man leading the blind." He then explicitly states what the Traditional Method of Teaching is "That which is devoid of all multiiplicity is taught by the method of deliberate superimpossition and recission'(Adhyaropa Apavadabhyam Nishprapancam Prapanchyate) And this Tradttion has nothing to do with the raising of your Kundalini to the Head Chakra!! Hari Om - In advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote: > Namaste > > Does Kundalini Yoga or the 7 chakras appear anywhere in the Upanishads? > > > > > Harsha [sMTP:harsha-hkl@h...] > > Tuesday, December 11, 2001 9:50 AM > > advaitin > > RE: Inappropriate subjects? > > > > I am not a scholar like many here but wholly agree with Sri Gummuluruji > > and > > was going to mention the same, that Sri Shankra has written on this topic > > elegantly and that many commentaries exist on Saundaryalahari (wave of > > beauty) and Anandalahari (wave of bliss). Is there a dispute that these > > are > > Sri Shankra's works? > > > > Sri Ramana has spoken of the Kundalini Shakti and the role it plays in > > Self-Realization. > > > > There need not be any conflict between or contradiction between Advaita > > Vedanta and Kundalini Yoga. However, as Sri Gummuluruji points out, the > > nature of the Shakti must be understood at a subtle level. > > > > Love to all > > Harsha > > > > > > Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy@m...] > > Monday, December 10, 2001 11:39 AM > > advaitin > > Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > > > > > > > namaste. > > > > I like to express my two cents worth of view on this. > > > > KunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the transport of > > cosmic energy from the mUlAdhAra cakra through the suShumna > > to the sahasrAra. This is described by none other than the > > bhagavatpAda shri shankarAcArya in saundaryalaharI. > > > > Significant number of advaitins are devI-bhaktA-s and the > > kunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the knowledge > > associated with shricakra pUjA. > > > > Also, as was pointed out by shri Shrinivas earlier, kunDalinI > > awakening is not in the physical plane; the cakrA-s are not in > > the physical body. Also, yoga, as enunciated by Patanjali, is > > also not in the physical plane. Unfortunately, however, the > > present-day understanding of yoga (and also of kunDalinI) > > is somehow, limited to the body-aspect only. I was looking > > in shri Pieter's writings whether he is looking at it as a > > body-phenomenon or something beyond. > > > > I am following the writings and would like to see them on the > > Advaitin List, if there is no major objection from other members. > > I have two comments on the writings. > > > > 1. The writings are a bit expansive, but different members have > > different writing styles. I have no problem with that. > > > > 2. I would like to ask: are the writings the experiences of Pieter? > > If they are taken partly from a different source, the writings > > would be more complete if the reference is provided. > > > > There are more than 500 members on the List and I would assume the > > topic is of interest to at least a few. Certainly, it is for me. > > > > > > Regards > > Gummuluru Murthy > > ---- -- > > > > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > > Atman and Brahman. > > Advaitin List Archives available at: > > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 Namaste I completely agree with you. Nevertheless I was curious to know if references to Kundalini Yoga is found in the Upanishads. I appreciate your reply. Regards. > > atmachaitanya108 [sMTP:stadri] > Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:10 AM > advaitin > Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > -- Dear Sri k Kathirasan, > > It is not possible, for anyone who has actually gone > through the Prasana Traya Bhasya ( Shankaras commentarial work on the > Principle Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita and the Brahma Sutras, to seriouly > believe that 'Saundrayalahari' or 'Anandalahari' are from the pen of > Sri Adi Shanaracarya. All serious scholars > (Ingallis,Hacker,Potter,Nakamura, Mayadeya. Mahadeven, etc,) have > rejected these works as having been auhtored by Shankara. There is not > even the slighest hint, in all of Shankaras universally accepted > works,that one should "raise his Kundalini from the Muladhara Chakra > through the Sushumna to the Sahasrara." > > Wheather you understand the Kundalini at a gross level or a > "subtle" level, it has nothing to do with the Advaita tradition of Sri > Bhagavadpada. Shankara catagorically states in his commentary on Gita > 13-2, "That even if a man be learned in all the Scriptures, should he > be bereft of the TRADITIONAL METHOD OF TEACHING, he should be > disregarded as a fool, like a blind man leading the blind." He then > explicitly states what the Traditional Method of Teaching is "That > which is devoid of all multiiplicity is taught by the method of > deliberate > superimpossition and recission'(Adhyaropa Apavadabhyam Nishprapancam > Prapanchyate) And this Tradttion has nothing to do with the raising of > your Kundalini to the Head Chakra!! > > Hari Om > > - In advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote: > > Namaste > > > > Does Kundalini Yoga or the 7 chakras appear anywhere in the > Upanishads? > > > > > > > > Harsha [sMTP:harsha-hkl@h...] > > > Tuesday, December 11, 2001 9:50 AM > > > advaitin > > > RE: Inappropriate subjects? > > > > > > I am not a scholar like many here but wholly agree with Sri > Gummuluruji > > > and > > > was going to mention the same, that Sri Shankra has written on > this topic > > > elegantly and that many commentaries exist on Saundaryalahari > (wave of > > > beauty) and Anandalahari (wave of bliss). Is there a dispute that > these > > > are > > > Sri Shankra's works? > > > > > > Sri Ramana has spoken of the Kundalini Shakti and the role it > plays in > > > Self-Realization. > > > > > > There need not be any conflict between or contradiction between > Advaita > > > Vedanta and Kundalini Yoga. However, as Sri Gummuluruji points > out, the > > > nature of the Shakti must be understood at a subtle level. > > > > > > Love to all > > > Harsha > > > > > > > > > Gummuluru Murthy [gmurthy@m...] > > > Monday, December 10, 2001 11:39 AM > > > advaitin > > > Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > > > > > > > > > > > namaste. > > > > > > I like to express my two cents worth of view on this. > > > > > > KunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the transport of > > > cosmic energy from the mUlAdhAra cakra through the suShumna > > > to the sahasrAra. This is described by none other than the > > > bhagavatpAda shri shankarAcArya in saundaryalaharI. > > > > > > Significant number of advaitins are devI-bhaktA-s and the > > > kunDalinI awakening is an integral part of the knowledge > > > associated with shricakra pUjA. > > > > > > Also, as was pointed out by shri Shrinivas earlier, kunDalinI > > > awakening is not in the physical plane; the cakrA-s are not in > > > the physical body. Also, yoga, as enunciated by Patanjali, is > > > also not in the physical plane. Unfortunately, however, the > > > present-day understanding of yoga (and also of kunDalinI) > > > is somehow, limited to the body-aspect only. I was looking > > > in shri Pieter's writings whether he is looking at it as a > > > body-phenomenon or something beyond. > > > > > > I am following the writings and would like to see them on the > > > Advaitin List, if there is no major objection from other members. > > > I have two comments on the writings. > > > > > > 1. The writings are a bit expansive, but different members have > > > different writing styles. I have no problem with that. > > > > > > 2. I would like to ask: are the writings the experiences of > Pieter? > > > If they are taken partly from a different source, the writings > > > would be more complete if the reference is provided. > > > > > > There are more than 500 members on the List and I would assume the > > > topic is of interest to at least a few. Certainly, it is for me. > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > Gummuluru Murthy > > > > ---- > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of > nonseparablity of > > > Atman and Brahman. > > > Advaitin List Archives available at: > > > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > > > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > > > Messages Archived at: > advaitin/messages > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 K Kathirasan NCS [kkathir] Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:14 PM advaitin RE: Re: Inappropriate subjects? Namaste I completely agree with you. Nevertheless I was curious to know if references to Kundalini Yoga is found in the Upanishads. I appreciate your reply. Regards. ****************************** Do not some of the Upanishads refer to Prana and Breath? Shakti is the mother of Prana and the Mind. The references to Shakti are often veiled and understood by a few only. Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita gives the classical method of concentration and meditation on the third eye (with the neck and the back kept straight, concentrating on the tip of nose). This method with some variations is common to most Shakti traditions. The Supreme Goddess is the beauty, innocence, purity, grace, and fragrance of pure consciousness. She rises from consciousness and leading the mind back to its source disappears giving the Realization of Pure Oneness of the devotee, Guru, the Shakti, and the Self. Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 Namaste Harshaji The good thing is that we can regard all such efforts involving karma as a means to prepare oneself for jnana. So all such efforts are after all not gone to waste. Regards. > > Harsha [sMTP:harsha-hkl] > Wednesday, December 12, 2001 9:58 AM > advaitin > RE: Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > > K Kathirasan NCS [kkathir] > Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:14 PM > advaitin > RE: Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > > Namaste > > I completely agree with you. Nevertheless I was curious to know if > references to Kundalini Yoga is found in the Upanishads. I appreciate your > reply. Regards. > ****************************** > Do not some of the Upanishads refer to Prana and Breath? Shakti is the > mother of Prana and the Mind. The references to Shakti are often veiled > and > understood by a few only. Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita gives the > classical method of concentration and meditation on the third eye (with > the > neck and the back kept straight, concentrating on the tip of nose). This > method with some variations is common to most Shakti traditions. > > The Supreme Goddess is the beauty, innocence, purity, grace, and fragrance > of pure consciousness. She rises from consciousness and leading the mind > back to its source disappears giving the Realization of Pure Oneness of > the > devotee, Guru, the Shakti, and the Self. > > Love to all > Harsha > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 K Kathirasan NCS [kkathir] Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:58 PM advaitin RE: Re: Inappropriate subjects? Namaste Harshaji The good thing is that we can regard all such efforts involving karma as a means to prepare oneself for jnana. So all such efforts are after all not gone to waste. Regards. *************************************************** Namaste Sri Kathirasanji Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I don't know anything about all such efforts or efforts going to waste or karma or preparing for Jnana, etc. Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 Dear Sri Harsha, 1) When you say "Do not some of the Upanishads refer to Prana and breath?" Of course in the Principle Upanishads Prana is mentioned in a few senses: It can mean breath, life force and even Brahman. But it is never used, or even implied in the sence of an energy that the aspirent should try to raise along his chakras as a means to Liberation. 2) When you say "The references to Shakti are often veiled and understood by a few only." Shankara has clearly and repeatedly defined the exact nature of Shakti in his Commentaries. I cite one typical example: "Fictitously imagined by Ignorance as though they were identical with the Omniscient Lord, Name and Form, undefinable either as Brahman or as something distinct from Him,the cause of this manifold world of Samsara,,are called in the Sruti and Smriti by the names 'SHAKTI','MAYA' AND 'PRAKRITI'." (Sutra Bhasya 2-1-14) (Here two points should be taken note of: a)Shankara uses the words Shakti, Maya , and Prakriti as synonyms-although each word has a technical meaning specific to Advaita Vedanta:Shakti-the causal potential energy, Maya- an illusory appearance, Prakriti-The original state of the world before creation. b) All three,(Shakti, Maya and Prakriti) are 'imagined by ignorance',and therefore can only be sublated by Knowledge,and not by raising your Kundalini up the Chakras. 3) It should be noted that ALL Shakti traditions, without exception, are Dualist,as is the case with the Yoga Darshana, as well as all schools of Vaishnavism and Shaivism. 4) I respectfully beg to differ with your description of the Sadhana taught by Sri Krishna to Arjuna in the 6th chapter of the Gita. The teaching there has nothing to do with "meditation on the third eye" nor with " concentrating on the tip of your nose". But rather it describes the direct method by which an aspirent is to turn his mind inwards and obtain the Direct Experience of the Non-Dual Self. It has nothing in common with a yogis attempt to raise his Kundalini, nor with the practices of any Shakti tradition, because there are no Shakti traditions which even recognize the existence of a Non-Dual Self. Hari Om Atmachaitanya advaitin, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote: > > K Kathirasan NCS [kkathir@n...] > Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:14 PM > advaitin > RE: Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > > Namaste > > I completely agree with you. Nevertheless I was curious to know if > references to Kundalini Yoga is found in the Upanishads. I appreciate your > reply. Regards. > ****************************** > Do not some of the Upanishads refer to Prana and Breath? Shakti is the > mother of Prana and the Mind. The references to Shakti are often veiled and > understood by a few only. Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita gives the > classical method of concentration and meditation on the third eye (with the > neck and the back kept straight, concentrating on the tip of nose). This > method with some variations is common to most Shakti traditions. > > The Supreme Goddess is the beauty, innocence, purity, grace, and fragrance > of pure consciousness. She rises from consciousness and leading the mind > back to its source disappears giving the Realization of Pure Oneness of the > devotee, Guru, the Shakti, and the Self. > > Love to all > Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Namaste, Swami Yogananda's book, 'Autobiography of a Yogi', p. 347 [1946/1974, publ. SRF], ha this to say: [Mahavatar Babaji]"He has stated that he has given yoga initiation to Shankara....and to Kabir...." The same page has a footnote:"Shankara whose historically known guru was Govind Yati, received initiation into Kriya Yoga from Babaji in Banaras. Babaji, in recounting the story to Lahiri Mahashaya and Swami Kevalananda, gave may fascinating details of his meeting with the great monist." One has to wonder why Shankara's dates are still shrouded in mystery!! [see footnote p. 258 of the same book]. Regards, Sunder advaitin, "atmachaitanya108" <stadri@a...> wrote: > advaitin, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote: > > > > K Kathirasan NCS [kkathir@n...] > > Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:14 PM > > advaitin > > RE: Re: Inappropriate subjects? Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 My Dearest Atmachaitanya, I appreciate your scholarly knowledge and your sharing of it with confidence and enthusiasm. I certainly cannot match your learning of scriptures and of various commentaries. Whether the raising of Kundalini Shakti from the Muladhara to the Sahasarara is a pre-requisite for Realization is not an issue, although some may appear to believe that. Sri Ramana has pointed out that one following this path (by grace and the instructions of the Guru) will bring the Shakti into the Spiritual Heart for Self-Realization. This does not preclude the possibility of Direct Realization in the Heart. The term Heart, Hridya Gufa (cave of the Heart) occurs in the earliest Upanishads. Whether all Shakti traditions are dualists or not, I leave it up to your judgment. It is, however, true that the movement of Shakti can lead to the Heart and Self-Realization and there is no possibility of duality in Sat-Chit-Ananda. There is ample testimony from Sages on that and it is a matter of direct experience as well. Although there are fixed teachings, there is no fixed path to Self-Realization. Love to all Harsha Here are some selections from Jnaneshwar's poetry from an old post. ************************* It can be seen, therefore, That he who perceives that there is nothing Does not himself become nothing. The Self has this same unique kind of existence, Beyond both existence and non-existence. The ultimate Reality Is neither an object to Itself Nor is It an object to anyone else. Should it then be regarded as non-existent? In a tank the water may be so clear That it appears non-existent; Though one who looks into the tank may not see it, Still it is there. Similarly, The ultimate Reality exists in Itself, And is beyond the conceptions Of existence or non-existence. atmachaitanya108 [stadri] Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:20 AM advaitin Re: Inappropriate subjects? Dear Sri Harsha, 1) When you say "Do not some of the Upanishads refer to Prana and breath?" Of course in the Principle Upanishads Prana is mentioned in a few senses: It can mean breath, life force and even Brahman. But it is never used, or even implied in the sence of an energy that the aspirent should try to raise along his chakras as a means to Liberation. 2) When you say "The references to Shakti are often veiled and understood by a few only." Shankara has clearly and repeatedly defined the exact nature of Shakti in his Commentaries. I cite one typical example: "Fictitously imagined by Ignorance as though they were identical with the Omniscient Lord, Name and Form, undefinable either as Brahman or as something distinct from Him,the cause of this manifold world of Samsara,,are called in the Sruti and Smriti by the names 'SHAKTI','MAYA' AND 'PRAKRITI'." (Sutra Bhasya 2-1-14) (Here two points should be taken note of: a)Shankara uses the words Shakti, Maya , and Prakriti as synonyms-although each word has a technical meaning specific to Advaita Vedanta:Shakti-the causal potential energy, Maya- an illusory appearance, Prakriti-The original state of the world before creation. b) All three,(Shakti, Maya and Prakriti) are 'imagined by ignorance',and therefore can only be sublated by Knowledge,and not by raising your Kundalini up the Chakras. 3) It should be noted that ALL Shakti traditions, without exception, are Dualist,as is the case with the Yoga Darshana, as well as all schools of Vaishnavism and Shaivism. 4) I respectfully beg to differ with your description of the Sadhana taught by Sri Krishna to Arjuna in the 6th chapter of the Gita. The teaching there has nothing to do with "meditation on the third eye" nor with " concentrating on the tip of your nose". But rather it describes the direct method by which an aspirent is to turn his mind inwards and obtain the Direct Experience of the Non-Dual Self. It has nothing in common with a yogis attempt to raise his Kundalini, nor with the practices of any Shakti tradition, because there are no Shakti traditions which even recognize the existence of a Non-Dual Self. Hari Om Atmachaitanya advaitin, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote: > > K Kathirasan NCS [kkathir@n...] > Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:14 PM > advaitin > RE: Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > > Namaste > > I completely agree with you. Nevertheless I was curious to know if > references to Kundalini Yoga is found in the Upanishads. I appreciate your > reply. Regards. > ****************************** > Do not some of the Upanishads refer to Prana and Breath? Shakti is the > mother of Prana and the Mind. The references to Shakti are often veiled and > understood by a few only. Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita gives the > classical method of concentration and meditation on the third eye (with the > neck and the back kept straight, concentrating on the tip of nose). This > method with some variations is common to most Shakti traditions. > > The Supreme Goddess is the beauty, innocence, purity, grace, and fragrance > of pure consciousness. She rises from consciousness and leading the mind > back to its source disappears giving the Realization of Pure Oneness of the > devotee, Guru, the Shakti, and the Self. > > Love to all > Harsha Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Dear Sunderji, I would like to just make 3 short points with regard to your post. 1)There is not one single shread of evidence,(historical, philosophical, or in terms of literary style or content) that Sri Shankara was 'given yoga initiation by Mahavatar Babaji'. 2)While it is certainly true that Sri Govindapada was Shankaras' Guru. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Govindapada was 'given initiation into Kriya Yoga' or that he taught Kriya Yoga to his student Shankara. If that were the case, we should expect that Shankara would have made mention of Kriya Yoga in his writings. However the fact of the matter is that Shankara has not uttered one word about Kriya Yoga in any of his authentic works. ( what is more likely the case: Kriya Yogis wanting to lend credibility and authority to there teachings, claimed Shankara as one of their own. This has been going one for over a thousand years, whereby different schools of Indian thought have claimed Shankara as their own in order to gain legitimacy. 3) The dates of Shankara are not really shrouded in mystery. All modern scholars, both Indian,and Western, have accepted the date of Shankara to be the latter half of the 8th century. ( For an in depth disscusion of the 'date of Shankara I would recommend 'A History of Early of Vedanta Philosophy', by H Nakamura, or "The Life and Thought of Shankaracharya', by Pandey). Hari Om Atmachaitanya advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote: > Namaste, > > Swami Yogananda's book, 'Autobiography of a Yogi', p. 347 > [1946/1974, publ. SRF], ha this to say: > > [Mahavatar Babaji]"He has stated that he has given yoga initiation to > Shankara....and to Kabir...." > > The same page has a footnote:"Shankara whose historically known guru > was Govind Yati, received initiation into Kriya Yoga from Babaji in > Banaras. Babaji, in recounting the story to Lahiri Mahashaya and Swami > Kevalananda, gave may fascinating details of his meeting with the > great monist." > > One has to wonder why Shankara's dates are still shrouded in > mystery!! [see footnote p. 258 of the same book]. > > Regards, > > Sunder advaitin, "atmachaitanya108" <stadri@a...> wrote: > > > > advaitin, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote: > > > > > > K Kathirasan NCS [kkathir@n...] > > > Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:14 PM > > > advaitin > > > RE: Re: Inappropriate subjects? > Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Dear Sri Harshaji, I have already stated some of my reasons of believing that 'Kundalini Yoga' 'Kriya Yoga' or the Yoga of'Bringing the Shakti into the Heart' are all outside the pale of Shankaras Advaita Vedanta. I just ask you to ponder the question that, if it is true, as you claim, that " the movement of Shakti can lead to the Heart and to Self Realization", would it not then negate Shankaras claim the the Upanishadic teaching was the only Pramana (means of Knowledge) for Self Realization?? Of course it would, because then anyone who moved his Shaki into the 'Cave of the Heart' would be able to attain Self Realization without the need for Sravana ( listening to the Upanishadic teaching). The Sruti says "That Thou Art', not "That Thou shall become after you move the Shakti into you Heart". This will be my last post regarding this topic of 'Inappropriate subjects'. No doubt if people are interested in Kundalini Yoga, Kriya Yoga, or 'moving their Shakti into the cave of the Heart' that is their perogative. I just wanted to stress the point that these so caled 'Yogas' have nothing to do with Shankaras Vedanta, nor could they ever be the means of sublating Ignorance, nor could they ever result in Liberation. Hari Om Atmachaitanya -- In advaitin, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote: > My Dearest Atmachaitanya, > > I appreciate your scholarly knowledge and your sharing of it with > confidence and enthusiasm. I certainly cannot match your learning of > scriptures and of various commentaries. Whether the raising of Kundalini > Shakti from the Muladhara to the Sahasarara is a pre-requisite for > Realization is not an issue, although some may appear to believe that. Sri > Ramana has pointed out that one following this path (by grace and the > instructions of the Guru) will bring the Shakti into the Spiritual Heart for > Self-Realization. This does not preclude the possibility of Direct > Realization in the Heart. The term Heart, Hridya Gufa (cave of the Heart) > occurs in the earliest Upanishads. > > Whether all Shakti traditions are dualists or not, I leave it up to your > judgment. It is, however, true that the movement of Shakti can lead to the > Heart and Self-Realization and there is no possibility of duality in > Sat-Chit-Ananda. There is ample testimony from Sages on that and it is a > matter of direct experience as well. > > Although there are fixed teachings, there is no fixed path to > Self-Realization. > > Love to all > Harsha > > > > Here are some selections from Jnaneshwar's poetry from an old post. > ************************* > > It can be seen, therefore, > That he who perceives that there is nothing > Does not himself become nothing. > The Self has this same unique kind of existence, > Beyond both existence and non-existence. > > The ultimate Reality > Is neither an object to Itself > Nor is It an object to anyone else. > Should it then be regarded as non-existent? > > In a tank the water may be so clear > That it appears non-existent; > Though one who looks into the tank may not see it, > Still it is there. > > Similarly, > The ultimate Reality exists in Itself, > And is beyond the conceptions > Of existence or non-existence. > > > > > > > atmachaitanya108 [stadri@a...] > Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:20 AM > advaitin > Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > > Dear Sri Harsha, > > 1) When you say "Do not some of the Upanishads refer to Prana > and breath?" Of course in the Principle Upanishads Prana is mentioned > in a few senses: It can mean breath, life force and even Brahman. But > it is never used, or even implied in the sence of an energy that the > aspirent should try to raise along his chakras as a means to > Liberation. > 2) When you say "The references to Shakti are often > veiled and understood by a few only." Shankara has clearly and > repeatedly defined the exact nature of Shakti in his Commentaries. I > cite one typical example: > > "Fictitously imagined by Ignorance as though they were > identical with the Omniscient Lord, Name and Form, undefinable either > as Brahman or as something distinct from Him,the cause of this > manifold world of Samsara,,are called in the Sruti and > Smriti by the names 'SHAKTI','MAYA' AND 'PRAKRITI'." (Sutra Bhasya > 2-1-14) > (Here two points should be taken note of: a)Shankara uses the > words Shakti, Maya , and Prakriti as synonyms-although each word has a > technical meaning specific to Advaita Vedanta:Shakti-the causal > potential energy, Maya- an illusory appearance, Prakriti-The original > state of the world before creation. b) All three,(Shakti, Maya and > Prakriti) are 'imagined by ignorance',and therefore can only be > sublated by Knowledge,and not by raising your Kundalini up the > Chakras. > > 3) It should be noted that ALL Shakti traditions, without > exception, are Dualist,as is the case with the Yoga Darshana, as well > as all schools of Vaishnavism and Shaivism. > > 4) I respectfully beg to differ with your description of the > Sadhana > taught by Sri Krishna to Arjuna in the 6th chapter of the Gita. The > teaching there has nothing to do with "meditation on the third eye" > nor with " concentrating on the tip of your nose". But rather it > describes the direct method by which an aspirent is to turn his mind > inwards and obtain the Direct Experience of the Non-Dual Self. It has > nothing in common with a yogis attempt to raise his Kundalini, nor > with the practices of any Shakti tradition, because there are no > Shakti > traditions which even recognize the existence of a Non-Dual Self. > > > > Hari Om > Atmachaitanya > > advaitin, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote: > > > > K Kathirasan NCS [kkathir@n...] > > Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:14 PM > > advaitin > > RE: Re: Inappropriate subjects? > > > > > > Namaste > > > > I completely agree with you. Nevertheless I was curious to know if > > references to Kundalini Yoga is found in the Upanishads. I > appreciate your > > reply. Regards. > > ****************************** > > Do not some of the Upanishads refer to Prana and Breath? Shakti is > the > > mother of Prana and the Mind. The references to Shakti are often > veiled and > > understood by a few only. Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita gives the > > classical method of concentration and meditation on the third eye > (with the > > neck and the back kept straight, concentrating on the tip of nose). > This > > method with some variations is common to most Shakti traditions. > > > > The Supreme Goddess is the beauty, innocence, purity, grace, and > fragrance > > of pure consciousness. She rises from consciousness and leading the > mind > > back to its source disappears giving the Realization of Pure Oneness > of the > > devotee, Guru, the Shakti, and the Self. > > > > Love to all > > Harsha > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Dearest Sri Atmachaitanyaji, I am delighted by your strong conviction and taking the time to express your perspective based on solid scriptural knowledge and scholarly insights. I agree with you on most points. For example, you say, Sravana ( listening to the Upanishadic teaching) is a critical first step and I completely agree. Second Reflecting on what the Sruti says "That Thou Art', is critical. The disagreement is not on essential scriptural points but on the possibility of practical processes that occur when the Advaita path is followed. Sri Ramana, for example, has commented that Kundalini Shakti is there for whatever path people follow. However, it is certainly not necessary that Shakti practices be emphasized as part of the path (and the Sage of Arunachala never did emphasize them). Visions of the Goddess come to many people unexpectedly when the Shakti manifests whether they are Advaitin or Yogis or anything. Spiritual practices of any type can result in a variety of divine names and forms. Behind them all is the great Shakti, the energy, grace, and power of the Self. Maya (The Mother) or Shakti from an Advaitic perspective finally cannot be any different than the Self. She is the dynamism and motion and the action that reveals Herself to be Static Inaction as well as one Monolithic Whole, Pure Sat-Chit-Ananda. This is the experience and testimony of our Sages. Self-Realization is our nature, but to recognize it as such, complete surrender to the Lord of the Heart is needed. This surrender happens due to grace when the aspirant has made the utmost effort and then gives up. "Not my will Lord but thine." When we surrender with our heart, mind, and soul, the strength of attachment to different perspectives is lost and the mind gets released to join its source. Love to all Harsha atmachaitanya108 [stadri] Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:37 PM advaitin Re: Inappropriate subjects? Dear Sri Harshaji, I have already stated some of my reasons of believing that 'Kundalini Yoga' 'Kriya Yoga' or the Yoga of'Bringing the Shakti into the Heart' are all outside the pale of Shankaras Advaita Vedanta. I just ask you to ponder the question that, if it is true, as you claim, that " the movement of Shakti can lead to the Heart and to Self Realization", would it not then negate Shankaras claim the the Upanishadic teaching was the only Pramana (means of Knowledge) for Self Realization?? Of course it would, because then anyone who moved his Shaki into the 'Cave of the Heart' would be able to attain Self Realization without the need for Sravana ( listening to the Upanishadic teaching). The Sruti says "That Thou Art', not "That Thou shall become after you move the Shakti into you Heart". This will be my last post regarding this topic of 'Inappropriate subjects'. No doubt if people are interested in Kundalini Yoga, Kriya Yoga, or 'moving their Shakti into the cave of the Heart' that is their perogative. I just wanted to stress the point that these so caled 'Yogas' have nothing to do with Shankaras Vedanta, nor could they ever be the means of sublating Ignorance, nor could they ever result in Liberation. Hari Om Atmachaitanya - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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