Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 namaste. This post is a continuation of recent discussions on samAdhi. There were contentions in those discussions that deep-sleep and samAdhi were almost synonymous in that when we get out of either, we will be engulfed by ignorance, which is not fully eradicated. Also, this contention was attributed to shri shankara. I am hoping to understand this a bit more and hence wish to revive this topic again. I give below in tabular form comparison between deep-sleep and samAdhi, as I understand. I would request learned members to correct any mistakes in this understanding: deep-sleep samAdhi 1. Consciousness (Atman) is Consciousness (Atman) ever-present is ever-present 2. Jagat is absent Jagat as jagat is absent 3. Awareness of objects is absent (I feel objects ??? themselves are absent; please see thread on deep-sleep of a few months ago) 4. Ignorance is in seed form Ignorance is absent while in deep-sleep 5. Coming out of deep-sleep, I see the person being in ignorance grows from the ignorance again coming seed to a full-blown state out of samAdhi; however, I do not fully understand this mechanism; how will the ignorance, which was not present earlier, during samAdhi, come bcak again? The analogy I can think of for such possibility is that when a light-switch is turned on, the darkness disappears (entering into samAdhi, ignorance disappears); when the switch is turned off, darkness re-appears. ------ Notes: 1. I recall shri Raghava Kaluri asking for specific reference where shri shankara said this (similarity of deep-sleep and samAdhi). I do not recall seeing an answer to that query, athough BSB 2.1.9 was cited earlier. I have only translations of shri shankarabhAShya (by swami Gambhirananda, by swami Vireswarananda, by Thiabault) and none of the translations give a detailed account of this synonymity (of deep-sleep and samAdhi). I wonder if any one has original bhAShya, they can expand on that point. Is there any other place where shri shankara commented on this? 2. Swami Brahmanandaji in his book THE SUPREME KNOWLEDGE, REVEALED THROUGH VIDYAS IN UPANISHADS (a DLS Publication) says (I give excerpts below): "...Some say 'Meditation is communion with an unseen Realm that pours its influence upon us and makes us new men. The test of this influence is experience of 'peace' in life. Meditation is an experience which blooms in the feeling of the presence of God in daily life. This experience lifts us above the world of atoms and electrons. This experience links us with the Atman wherein Truth abides and Love is radiant and Beauty hath her eternal shrine." "... Meditation, according to sage Patanjali, is the process of keeping a continuous and uninterrupted flow of the mind towards the chosen object. Sri Acarya shankara in his APAROKSANUBHUTI, a short treatise on God-experience, defines meditation as that state in which the mind, without any support, holds on to the sad-vritti, that most auspicious modification of the mind 'I am Brahman verily', which is the bestower of supreme bliss. And this meditation, says the Acarya, leads to complete changelessness of mind and complete forgetfulness of all thought, which culminates in identification with Brahman, which is termed samAdhi and also jnAna." "...While commenting on the 24th verse in chapter XIII of the bhagavad-gita, Acarya shankara says that dhyana (meditation) consists in the withdrawal of the senses from their respective objects through concentration into the mind, and then withdrawal of the mind into the inner intelligence and then contemplating on the inner intelligence.." "... Again, in his monumental commentary on the Brihadaranyaka upanishad, in one place (I-3-ix), He (Acarya shankara) defines meditation as mentally approaching the form of the deity meditated upon as it is presented by the eulogistic portions of the vedas relating to that particular deity and concentrating on it excluding conventional notions, till one is completely identified with it as with one's body conventionally regardes as one's Self..." Implications of these excerpts (as I understand): Meditation is an integral part of sAdhana and culmination of meditation is samAdhi. That is, samAdhi is a positive step forward (may or may not be the final step) in our quest for AtmajnAna. Thus, as I see, equating samAdhi with deep-sleep may be a harsh interpretation. Shri shankara's statements in BSB 2.1.9, as I understand from the translations I have, went only as far to say that "...when one comes out of samAdhi, one can be in ignorance again, like one will be in ignorance after coming out of deep-sleep." Or, did I miss the point here? Any clarifications, alternate viewpoints, are appreciated. Regards Gummuluru Murthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Thank you for raising these central points Murthyji. An in-depth analysis of sleeping and waking states is part of the Advaitic method to approach the understanding of Self in which all states arise. Waking states, dream states, celestial states, visitations of angels or celestial beings and deities and other super conscious states occur with the mind present in some gross or subtle form (but not in seed form) to appreciate what is happening. Therefore, these states are similar to each other with varying degrees of purity, awareness, and clarity. Savikalpa Samadhis belong to this class of experiences. When our sages speak of Samadhi in the context of Self-Realization, they are speaking of Nirvikalpa Samadhi, where the mind has become inactive in seed form and absorbed in the Self. Deep sleep and Nirvikalpa Samadhi are similar because in both states, the mind has become dormant. However, deep sleep is a state of ignorance or unconsciousness from the perspective of the person who wakes up from it. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is entered into consciously and with grace only, and the mind upon being absorbed, Self Recognition is Pure, Clear, with the Self Being It Self, Seeing It Self By It Self. It Is One without a second. The true living and real meaning of Sat-Chit-Ananda is clearly understood after Nirvikalpa Samadhi. The Upanishads and our Sages have used very precise terminology to describe Self-Realization. Nityam and Poornum. Self Is Eternal and Whole. The depth of the words written thousands of years ago is utterly astonishing. It has seemed to me that although Upanishads point the way clearly, they cannot be fully understood and appreciated until after Self-Knowledge has dawned. The other question that you raised Murthyji about whether someone can remain ignorant after Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a wonderful one as well. The "distance" between Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Sahaj Samadhi differs uniquely for each person. When I return back for next semester, I will give an example and analogy to demonstrate the above point. A person serious about Self- Realization will grasp the essence of the Upanishads and the teaching of the Sages and meditate on them with heart, mind, and soul. Love to all Harsha In advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > > "... Again, in his monumental commentary on the Brihadaranyaka > upanishad, in one place (I-3-ix), He (Acarya shankara) defines > meditation as mentally approaching the form of the deity meditated > upon as it is presented by the eulogistic portions of the vedas > relating to that particular deity and concentrating on it excluding > conventional notions, till one is completely identified with it > as with one's body conventionally regardes as one's Self..." > > Implications of these excerpts (as I understand): Meditation is > an integral part of sAdhana and culmination of meditation is > samAdhi. That is, samAdhi is a positive step forward (may or > may not be the final step) in our quest for AtmajnAna. Thus, > as I see, equating samAdhi with deep-sleep may be a harsh > interpretation. Shri shankara's statements in BSB 2.1.9, > as I understand from the translations I have, went only > as far to say that "...when one comes out of samAdhi, > one can be in ignorance again, like one will be in ignorance > after coming out of deep-sleep." Or, did I miss the point here? > Any clarifications, alternate viewpoints, are appreciated. > > Regards > Gummuluru Murthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Greetingz, As far as my understanding goes, whole of spirituality is there to remove oneself from ignorance when one is in waking state. If for an hour being in Samadhi can remove ignorance and make the person as explained in BG 2.56 That monk is called a man of steady wisdom when his mind is unperturbed in sorrow, he is free from longing for delights, and has gone beyond attachment, fear and anger. 2.57 The wisdom of that person remains established who has not attachment for anything anywhere, who neither welcomes nor rejects anything whatever good or bad when he comes across it. than we can clearly say the Samadhi is enough. But this begs us a question, to attain this kind of samadhi, is there any need of Vedantic teaching? Because many of the other schools also prescribe Samadhi state? Sarvam Vasudevamayam jagath Prashanth --- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy wrote: > > namaste. > > This post is a continuation of recent discussions on samAdhi. > There were contentions in those discussions that deep-sleep > and samAdhi were almost synonymous in that when we get out > of either, we will be engulfed by ignorance, which is not > fully eradicated. Also, this contention was attributed to > shri shankara. I am hoping to understand this a bit more > and hence wish to revive this topic again. > > I give below in tabular form comparison between deep-sleep > and samAdhi, as I understand. I would request learned members > to correct any mistakes in this understanding: > > > deep-sleep samAdhi > > 1. Consciousness (Atman) is Consciousness (Atman) > ever-present is ever-present > 2. Jagat is absent Jagat as jagat is absent > 3. Awareness of objects is > absent (I feel objects ??? > themselves are absent; > please see thread on > deep-sleep of a few months > ago) > 4. Ignorance is in seed form Ignorance is absent > while in deep-sleep > 5. Coming out of deep-sleep, I see the person being in > ignorance grows from the ignorance again coming > seed to a full-blown state out of samAdhi; however, > I do not fully understand > this mechanism; > how will the ignorance, > which was not present > earlier, during samAdhi, > come bcak again? > The analogy I can think of > for such possibility is > that when a light-switch > is turned on, the darkness > disappears (entering into > samAdhi, ignorance disappears); > when the switch is turned off, > darkness re-appears. > ------ > Notes: > > 1. I recall shri Raghava Kaluri asking for specific reference where > shri shankara said this (similarity of deep-sleep and samAdhi). I do > not recall seeing an answer to that query, athough BSB 2.1.9 was > cited earlier. I have only translations of shri shankarabhAShya > (by swami Gambhirananda, by swami Vireswarananda, by Thiabault) > and none of the translations give a detailed account of this > synonymity (of deep-sleep and samAdhi). I wonder if any one has > original bhAShya, they can expand on that point. Is there any > other place where shri shankara commented on this? > > 2. Swami Brahmanandaji in his book THE SUPREME KNOWLEDGE, REVEALED > THROUGH VIDYAS IN UPANISHADS (a DLS Publication) says (I give excerpts > below): > > "...Some say 'Meditation is communion with an unseen Realm that > pours its influence upon us and makes us new men. The test of this > influence is experience of 'peace' in life. Meditation is an > experience which blooms in the feeling of the presence of God in > daily life. This experience lifts us above the world of atoms and > electrons. This experience links us with the Atman wherein Truth > abides and Love is radiant and Beauty hath her eternal shrine." > > "... Meditation, according to sage Patanjali, is the process of > keeping a continuous and uninterrupted flow of the mind towards > the chosen object. Sri Acarya shankara in his APAROKSANUBHUTI, > a short treatise on God-experience, defines meditation as that > state in which the mind, without any support, holds on to the > sad-vritti, that most auspicious modification of the mind 'I am > Brahman verily', which is the bestower of supreme bliss. And this > meditation, says the Acarya, leads to complete changelessness > of mind and complete forgetfulness of all thought, which culminates > in identification with Brahman, which is termed samAdhi and also > jnAna." > > "...While commenting on the 24th verse in chapter XIII of the > bhagavad-gita, Acarya shankara says that dhyana (meditation) > consists in the withdrawal of the senses from their respective > objects through concentration into the mind, and then withdrawal > of the mind into the inner intelligence and then contemplating on > the inner intelligence.." > > "... Again, in his monumental commentary on the Brihadaranyaka > upanishad, in one place (I-3-ix), He (Acarya shankara) defines > meditation as mentally approaching the form of the deity meditated > upon as it is presented by the eulogistic portions of the vedas > relating to that particular deity and concentrating on it excluding > conventional notions, till one is completely identified with it > as with one's body conventionally regardes as one's Self..." > > Implications of these excerpts (as I understand): Meditation is > an integral part of sAdhana and culmination of meditation is > samAdhi. That is, samAdhi is a positive step forward (may or > may not be the final step) in our quest for AtmajnAna. Thus, > as I see, equating samAdhi with deep-sleep may be a harsh > interpretation. Shri shankara's statements in BSB 2.1.9, > as I understand from the translations I have, went only > as far to say that "...when one comes out of samAdhi, > one can be in ignorance again, like one will be in ignorance > after coming out of deep-sleep." Or, did I miss the point here? > Any clarifications, alternate viewpoints, are appreciated. > > Regards > Gummuluru Murthy > > > > > > > > Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Namaste Prashantji You've stated my original question. If with a touch Samadhi can be induced, why the need of teaching called Vedanta? And I believe we call it a teaching tradition that was passed down from Ishwara himself right?. I still see 2 schools of thought here in this list. One accepting shaastra as the only pramaana and the other accepts Samadhi as another pramana. At least we know that Vedanta as a teaching tradition do not accept Samadhi as a pramaana. This was adequately stated by Atmachaitanyaji. Nevertheless, we have also seen members who quote the experiences of Jnaanis as authoritative. And we have also seen different definitions of Samadhi in this list. So I think we are going to learn alot from the forthcoming discussions about Samadhi and its relevance to mukti. Kathi > > Prashanth Godrehal [sMTP:gprasha] > Friday, January 11, 2002 12:27 PM > advaitin > Re: deep-sleep and samAdhi > > > > Greetingz, > > As far as my understanding goes, whole of spirituality is there to remove > oneself from ignorance when one is in waking state. If for an hour being > in > Samadhi can remove ignorance and make the person as explained in BG > > 2.56 That monk is called a man of steady wisdom when his mind is > unperturbed in > sorrow, he is free from longing for delights, and has gone beyond > attachment, > fear and anger. > > 2.57 The wisdom of that person remains established who has not attachment > for > anything anywhere, who neither welcomes nor rejects anything whatever good > or > bad when he comes across it. > > than we can clearly say the Samadhi is enough. But this begs us a > question, to > attain this kind of samadhi, is there any need of Vedantic teaching? > Because > many of the other schools also prescribe Samadhi state? > > Sarvam Vasudevamayam jagath > Prashanth > > > --- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy wrote: > > > > namaste. > > > > This post is a continuation of recent discussions on samAdhi. > > There were contentions in those discussions that deep-sleep > > and samAdhi were almost synonymous in that when we get out > > of either, we will be engulfed by ignorance, which is not > > fully eradicated. Also, this contention was attributed to > > shri shankara. I am hoping to understand this a bit more > > and hence wish to revive this topic again. > > > > I give below in tabular form comparison between deep-sleep > > and samAdhi, as I understand. I would request learned members > > to correct any mistakes in this understanding: > > > > > > deep-sleep samAdhi > > > > 1. Consciousness (Atman) is Consciousness (Atman) > > ever-present is ever-present > > 2. Jagat is absent Jagat as jagat is absent > > 3. Awareness of objects is > > absent (I feel objects ??? > > themselves are absent; > > please see thread on > > deep-sleep of a few months > > ago) > > 4. Ignorance is in seed form Ignorance is absent > > while in deep-sleep > > 5. Coming out of deep-sleep, I see the person being in > > ignorance grows from the ignorance again coming > > seed to a full-blown state out of samAdhi; however, > > I do not fully understand > > this mechanism; > > how will the ignorance, > > which was not present > > earlier, during samAdhi, > > come bcak again? > > The analogy I can think of > > for such possibility is > > that when a light-switch > > is turned on, the darkness > > disappears (entering into > > samAdhi, ignorance disappears); > > when the switch is turned off, > > darkness re-appears. > > ------ > > Notes: > > > > 1. I recall shri Raghava Kaluri asking for specific reference where > > shri shankara said this (similarity of deep-sleep and samAdhi). I do > > not recall seeing an answer to that query, athough BSB 2.1.9 was > > cited earlier. I have only translations of shri shankarabhAShya > > (by swami Gambhirananda, by swami Vireswarananda, by Thiabault) > > and none of the translations give a detailed account of this > > synonymity (of deep-sleep and samAdhi). I wonder if any one has > > original bhAShya, they can expand on that point. Is there any > > other place where shri shankara commented on this? > > > > 2. Swami Brahmanandaji in his book THE SUPREME KNOWLEDGE, REVEALED > > THROUGH VIDYAS IN UPANISHADS (a DLS Publication) says (I give excerpts > > below): > > > > "...Some say 'Meditation is communion with an unseen Realm that > > pours its influence upon us and makes us new men. The test of this > > influence is experience of 'peace' in life. Meditation is an > > experience which blooms in the feeling of the presence of God in > > daily life. This experience lifts us above the world of atoms and > > electrons. This experience links us with the Atman wherein Truth > > abides and Love is radiant and Beauty hath her eternal shrine." > > > > "... Meditation, according to sage Patanjali, is the process of > > keeping a continuous and uninterrupted flow of the mind towards > > the chosen object. Sri Acarya shankara in his APAROKSANUBHUTI, > > a short treatise on God-experience, defines meditation as that > > state in which the mind, without any support, holds on to the > > sad-vritti, that most auspicious modification of the mind 'I am > > Brahman verily', which is the bestower of supreme bliss. And this > > meditation, says the Acarya, leads to complete changelessness > > of mind and complete forgetfulness of all thought, which culminates > > in identification with Brahman, which is termed samAdhi and also > > jnAna." > > > > "...While commenting on the 24th verse in chapter XIII of the > > bhagavad-gita, Acarya shankara says that dhyana (meditation) > > consists in the withdrawal of the senses from their respective > > objects through concentration into the mind, and then withdrawal > > of the mind into the inner intelligence and then contemplating on > > the inner intelligence.." > > > > "... Again, in his monumental commentary on the Brihadaranyaka > > upanishad, in one place (I-3-ix), He (Acarya shankara) defines > > meditation as mentally approaching the form of the deity meditated > > upon as it is presented by the eulogistic portions of the vedas > > relating to that particular deity and concentrating on it excluding > > conventional notions, till one is completely identified with it > > as with one's body conventionally regardes as one's Self..." > > > > Implications of these excerpts (as I understand): Meditation is > > an integral part of sAdhana and culmination of meditation is > > samAdhi. That is, samAdhi is a positive step forward (may or > > may not be the final step) in our quest for AtmajnAna. Thus, > > as I see, equating samAdhi with deep-sleep may be a harsh > > interpretation. Shri shankara's statements in BSB 2.1.9, > > as I understand from the translations I have, went only > > as far to say that "...when one comes out of samAdhi, > > one can be in ignorance again, like one will be in ignorance > > after coming out of deep-sleep." Or, did I miss the point here? > > Any clarifications, alternate viewpoints, are appreciated. > > > > Regards > > Gummuluru Murthy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send FREE video emails in Mail! > http://promo./videomail/ > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, K Kathirasan NCS wrote: > Namaste Prashantji > > You've stated my original question. If with a touch Samadhi can be induced, > why the need of teaching called Vedanta? And I believe we call it a teaching > tradition that was passed down from Ishwara himself right?. I still see 2 > schools of thought here in this list. One accepting shaastra as the only > pramaana and the other accepts Samadhi as another pramana. namaste. I have a few comments here. Our attempt here is to understand where samAdhi (nirvikalpa samAdhi) is in AtmavidyA. I do not think it is such a this way/or that way proposition as you stated above. When you use the word pramANa, I want to make sure we are talking of the same thing. I take the word 'pramANa' to mean the ultimate authority or the ultimate reference that has to be satisfied, or the ultimate source which is to be referred for the authenticity or acceptance of any as Truth. In that regard, upanishads are the ultimate pramANa, and that was never disputed by any. > At least we know > that Vedanta as a teaching tradition do not accept Samadhi as a pramaana. > This was adequately stated by Atmachaitanyaji. When you use the words 'samAdhi as pramaNa', I am trying to understand what is meant by it. yes, shri Atmacaitanyaji made some forceful arguments for taking upanishadic statements as the ultimate pramANa. Also included in those forceful arguments are statements completely denigrading samAdhi and this is what I am trying to understand. > Nevertheless, we have also > seen members who quote the experiences of Jnaanis as authoritative. Taking upanishadic vAkyAs as authoritative, a jnAni is a jnAni only if his/her statements do not contradict upanishadic vAkyA-s. My attempt in re-starting this thread is to see (i) where samAdhi stands in AtmavidyA, (ii) whether samAdhi is really deep-sleep or an advanced placement in the spiritual growth of a human. In the first sentence of your post, you stated: "... If with a touch Samadhi can be induced, why the need of teaching called Vedanta?..." That seems a bit of over-simplification. Firstly, samAdhi cannot be induced by anyone, as I understand. Secondly, anyone cannot get into samAdhi at their command, wish or pleasure, again as I understand. I would assume, with samAdhi being the culmination of sAdhana, that yogic student has the minimum prerequisites of yama, niyama, etc. Thus, I would assume samAdhi as an outgrowth of advanced state of self-discipline. This may not be the final step in AtmavidyA. And this is what I am trying to have a more grasp on. > And we > have also seen different definitions of Samadhi in this list. So I think we > are going to learn alot from the forthcoming discussions about Samadhi and > its relevance to mukti. > > Kathi Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > understand. I would assume, with samAdhi being the culmination of > sAdhana, that yogic student has the minimum prerequisites of yama, > niyama, etc. Thus, I would assume samAdhi as an outgrowth of > advanced state of self-discipline. This may not be the final step > in AtmavidyA. And this is what I am trying to have a more grasp on. > Namaste Shri Gummuluru-Ji, Although I am a big fan of Patanjali, I do not think that yama-niyama--asana-pranayama--prataahara--dharana-dhyana-samadhi is a ladder of which samadhi is the final step. In a sense yes, it is a ladder but it is possible to step directly on samadhi. This is where Vedanta clearly scores a point over other viewpoints. Consider a simple act like sipping the morning tea. If this is an act that gives me pleasure, necessarily I must be experiencing the bliss of the Self during this act. In terms of yoga, I must have fleeting experience of samadhi during this act. All that I need to do is identify those moments of samadhi. This is Vedanta. Now we go back to yoga. Once I identify samadhi then I start working on other steps of yoga like yama-niyama-asana etc. so that the experience of samadhi may not be a fleeting one. Vyasa defines yoga as samadhi. If we suppose samadhi is an experience reserved for a chosen few who have followed a rigirous traning in yoga, I doubt if Vyasa would have defined yoga as samadhi. Shri Krishna uses the word samadhi to refer to quite a common experience in chapter 2, Gita. In summary I think samadhi is a very common experience. However the ability to "be" in samadhi for long periods of time is a challenge. Best regards Shrinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 Namaste, These quotations are for our contemplation. Everyone can draw inspiration from these according to one's needs: "I AM. Abiding in this natural State of pure Being is true samadhi.. Freed from the limiting sense Of being this, that or the other Stay as that boundless Infinite. .894. The nacient sages saythat silent Samadhi,the ultimate goal of jnana, Is the wholly egoless state. Till you attain the silent stillness Of being That, your aim and effort Should be to destroy the ego. . 895. When we with mind serene and still Experience pure unbroken Being, That is samadhi. In this state The mind, abiding as the Self Supreme, shares God's own being. .898. from The Garland of Guru's Sayings, by Muruganar tr. K. Swaminathan. Ramanashram, 1990. _____________ http://bur.oivta.ru/IntegralYoga/Sri_Aurobindo/The_Synthesis_of_Yoga/ Part_II.html#2-26 CHAPTER XXVI Samadhi "Such is the principle of the Yogic trance, Samadhi, -- into its complex phenomena we need not now enter. It is sufficient to note its double utility in the integral Yoga. It is true that up to a point difficult to define or delimit almost all that Samadhi can give, can be acquired without recourse to Samadhi. But still there are certain heights of spiritual and psychic experience of which the direct as opposed to a reflecting experience can only be acquired deeply and in its fullness by means of the Yogic trance. And even for that which can be otherwise acquired, it offers a ready means, a facility which becomes more helpful, if not indispensable, the higher and more difficult of access become the planes on which the heightened spiritual experience is sought. Once attained there, it has to be brought as much as possible into the waking consciousness. For in a Yoga which embraces all life completely and without reserve, the full use of Samadhi comes only when its gains can be made the normal possession and experience for an integral waking of the embodied soul in the human being." Regards, Sunder advaitin, "sgadkari2001" <sgadkari2001> wrote: > advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...> wrote: > > understand. I would assume, with samAdhi being the culmination of > > sAdhana, > In summary I think samadhi is a very common experience. However > the ability to "be" in samadhi for long periods of time is a > challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 I would like to make some observations about the questions in this thread. 1) There is a fundamental question over the value (or lack of it) associated with Samadhi. In my experience and opinion, the attainment of (various levels) and then subsequent, permanently established states of samadhi are indications of spiritual growth and awareness. The practice of meditation, referred to in various Upanishads, and as taught by Sri Ramana Maharshi (although he doesn't call it that), or by Maharshi Mahesh Yogi, or by the teachers of Sahaj Marg, all induce refinement of the senses, quietening of the mind and an experience of transcendental (or bliss) consciousness, possibly at the level at which all thoughts become absent. (To which Patanjali refers in the earliest of his sutras, in a bija form of the later, expounded practices and states: 2. Yoga comes from transcending the processes of individual consciousness [ie. mind - chitta], 3. then is one absorbed in the essence of the inner witness.) So Patanjali, Ramana Maharshi, Mahesh Yogi, most of the Upanishads and other teachers concur: 13. Steady effort in that (citta-vritti-nirodhah) is practice 14. which becomes firmly rooted by being correctly done, uninterrupted, over a long time. So achievement of Samadhi is not a goal, but a consequence of good practice. Once one has had experience of this state, or has repeatedly practiced Self-enquiry, or quietening the mind, the truth of the Scriptures starts to shine through. The story of eating strawberries and vanilla ice cream on a warm summer's day comes really alive only to one who has had that same experience... Reading the scriptures validates and puts into context one's experience (as will the guidance of a competent Guru), and for example, ensures that we do not become attached to the experience, which would, ironically, be contrary to likelihood of repeating it. So to me, there is no contradiction, Upanishads (and the rest of the Veda, and many other Holy Scriptures, especially eg. Gospel of St. John) support the spiritual aspirant and are a source of Pramaana. But, these are not the ONLY source. Patanjali points out: 1.7 PRATYAKSANUMANAGAMAH PRAMANANI True understanding comes from direct experience, inference or reliable testimony. So does Samadhi equate to a direct experience (of Atman) and therefore qualify as Pramaana? I think this depends on one's interpretation of Pramaana, and in this respect may be a blind alley in which to enter. 2. Are Samadhi and Nidraa equivalent? No, and Sri Harsha covered this point in has last posting. Samadhi reveals Atman with awareness. There is no awareness in deep sleep. 3. Can Samadhi be induced by another? Yes. The reason for mentioning Sahaj Marg (Natural Way) is that one of that teaching's fundamental propositions is "cleaning" (removal of samskaras) and pranahuti (transmission of grace) from the Guru via a preceptor. I can attest to the capability of this process to passively induce an experience of transcendental consciousness. There are countless stories of Shaktipat being dispensed by Saints. But I have never heard of such dispensation establishing a permanent state of Samadhi. 4. Must one practice Yama and Niyama (are they pre-requisites)? A fundamental flaw, I believe, is that the Ashtanga are sequential, or a serial process. Whereas my belief is that they are a more bounded system of "practices and effects". So practicing the asanas and pranyama will (as Sri Ramana points out) induce a physical quietening, which will in turn lead to mental subsidence, but meditation will also lead to these effects (and, using a proper system, far more directly than the former practices). Once regularly practicing such meditation, yama and niyama follow, as does ahimsa. In the same way that performing the asanas and pranyama accentuate spiritual growth, so will attention to good living. Jai Guru Dev Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 > > This is where Vedanta clearly scores a point over other viewpoints. > Consider a simple act like sipping the morning tea. If this is > an act that gives me pleasure, necessarily I must be experiencing > the bliss of the Self during this act. In terms of yoga, I must > have fleeting experience of samadhi during this act. All that I > need to do is identify those moments of samadhi. This is Vedanta. > It is true that any pleasure or joy is a reflection of the bliss of the Self be it the sipping of tea or the act of sex. But these experiences do not consitute Samadhi? Why? I have alluded to the reasons in some of my previous postings. But to recap the most important reason is the extent of joy. The extent of joy in Samadhi (whether Savikalpa or Nirvikalpa) is so great that the "greatest of worldly pleasures appear as sheer torture" (to quote from a great Yogi after the Samadhi experience). Another narrative: "The joy of the period of concentration was so great that coming out of that state to engage in other activities was positively repugnant." The sixth chapter of Gita also explains the extent of joy in 6.21 sukham aatyantikaM yat tad.h buddhi-graahyam-atiindriyam.h . vetti yatra na chaiva ayaM sthitash chalati tattvataH .. 21.. 'sukham atyantikam' means absolute or great bliss, Maitrayani Upanishad 6.34 says: "It is not possible to describe orally that bliss which arises in the mind that is totally freed from defects through samadhi and is absorbed in the Self. This Bliss that is such is then intuited by the internal organ ('By the internal organ' means 'by the mind in which all the modifications have been totally restrained'.)" >> > In summary I think samadhi is a very common experience. However > the ability to "be" in samadhi for long periods of time is a > challenge. >> It is ridiculous to postulate that Samadhi is a very common experience based on what we saw above. In fact , Lord Krishna says in the sixth chapter with the sloka "yam labdhva.." Obtaining which the aspirant does not think ANY OTHER acheivement or joy or pleasure to be superior. However , I agree with you that it is a challenge to attain Samadhi and remain for any length of time in Samadhi. My question - why focus only on Samadhi. Even during initial stages of meditation dharana etc, a person should experience great joy or pleasure. and the level of joy will only increase when you make progress. So instead of end-less arguments about Samadhi start on the path of meditation.. regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 advaitin, "avsundarrajan" <avsundarrajan> wrote: > > > > This is where Vedanta clearly scores a point over other viewpoints. > > Consider a simple act like sipping the morning tea. If this is > > an act that gives me pleasure, necessarily I must be experiencing > > the bliss of the Self during this act. In terms of yoga, I must > > have fleeting experience of samadhi during this act. All that I > > need to do is identify those moments of samadhi. This is Vedanta. > > > It is true that any pleasure or joy is a reflection of the bliss of > the Self be it the sipping of tea or the act of sex. But these > experiences do not consitute Samadhi? Why? I have alluded to the > reasons in some of my previous postings. Namaste Shri Sundar Rajan, Regarding my earlier posting, in the relevant paragraph that I have copied above, it is never said that an experience that is accompanied by joy constitutes samadhi. All that is being said is : such an experience necessarily encompasses MOMENTARY attainment of samadhi. (And why should this be so ? Because, as you rightly mention, the only source of joy is the bliss of the Self.) The word MOMENTARY is very important here. In fact, many people do not even realize that they had a momentary expereince of samadhi. > > In summary I think samadhi is a very common experience. However > > the ability to "be" in samadhi for long periods of time is a > > challenge. > >> > It is ridiculous to postulate that Samadhi is a very common > experience based on what we saw above. In fact , Lord Krishna says in > the sixth chapter with the sloka "yam labdhva.." In light of the above clarification, do you agree that "momentary expereince of samadhi" is a very common phenomenon. Best regards Shrinivas Gadkari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 --- sgadkari2001 <sgadkari2001 wrote: > In light of the above clarification, do you agree > that "momentary > expereince of samadhi" is a very common phenomenon. > > Best regards > Shrinivas Gadkari In True Samadhi, Self Is Known as the Self by It Self. Pure and Simple. The Whole Eternity is contained in the Moment. How can we then speak of momentary and from what perspective? The Beauty of Nirvikalpa for a spiritually mature person is that One Realizes that One is not in the present moment but One Is the Present Moment. One is not in the "now". One Is the "Now". One is not in the Self, One Is the Self. How can one talk of Self. What reference point can be used? Still, Self-Realized Sages demonstrate a perpetual vitality to speak of Self. Being beyonds words, thoughts, and imagination, Self-Knowledge is independent of all scriptures, traditions, and religions and schools of thought but provides support for them all. Love to all Harsha Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 > > The Beauty of Nirvikalpa for a spiritually mature > person is that One Realizes that One is not in the > present moment but One Is the Present Moment. One is > not in the "now". One Is the "Now". One is not in the > Self, One Is the Self. How can one talk of Self. What > reference point can be used? > Namaste Harshaji, I don't think a better description than this is possible. I have also been meditating for the past two years. I follow the Buddhist Shamata Technique of Breath Observation. I come out of it with a sense of peace which keeps me company for a larger part of the day. But it is nowhere near the experience you describe which is probably what I have been seeking without knowing how to articulate it. Could you please refer me to some source, be it a book or an URL or some article that you yourself might have written, where I may find techniques which if diligently followed may lead me to THAT Nirvikalpa. Sir, being a new comer to this list, I also find that I don't know anything about you. Could you please ahare with me such of the dtails as are relevant to the Quest which has brought us in contact. With regards, Venkat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Namaste, After my post earlier in the day on this subject, I came across this interesting episode in the life of Ramana Maharshi as narrated by Kunjuswami: QUOTE Sachidananda Yogeswara of Cuddapah was a famous hatha yogi.Once he went round the whole country.He used to stay in important places for three days and give talks.He came to the ashram also and talked to Sri Bhagvan and returned to where he was staying in the town.We were asked by his followers to listen to his talks.Palaniswami and i went there. At that time we were told that Yogeswara was in samadhi.One of his followers said,"He is in samadhi now.He will wake up at a particular time and give his talk at a particular time." Then he asked us,"When is your Bhagvan in samadhi?" When he heard this question,Sri Palaniswami burst out laughing.I said,"For a jnani,there is no specific time for being awake or in samadhi.He was amused at your question." It is said in Vasishtam also that whatever he might be doing,a jnani never goes into or out of samadhi.He is always in samadhi though he may be engaged in wordly activities.I told him that Sri Bhagvan was always in samadhi. When i returned to the ashram,Sri Bhagvan asked me what had happened at the hatha yogi's place.I told him the whole thing.Sri Bhagvan said with a smile,"People think that samadhi is limited to some time and place.Sitting in one place and keeping the eyes closed is said to be samadhi.What can we do?" There is a verse in Vasishtam: A person may be in padmasana but if he does not enjoy Bliss,he cannot be said to be in samadhi.The greatest samadhi is to throw desires into the fire of Self-realisation.To be outwardly quiet without inward peace is not samadhi. Sri Bhagvan had Himeself said in Verse 31 of the appendix to Ulladu Narpadu (Reality in Forty verses): A man who is asleep in a cart is hardly aware of the movement of the cart,its stopping or the unyoking of the bullocks.So does a jnani sleep in the body.He is hardly aware of work,samadhiand sleep.They are all the same to him. UNQUOTE I would very much like to learn from the views of list members on this episode. Many thanks and Regards, Venkat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Hi svenkat52! You hit the nail hard on its head. You don't have to learn anything more. Bhagwan said it all. You see the Sun, you see the Moon, you see the cockroach, it is all you. There is nothing apart from you. You are everyting. That is samadhi. Samadhi is not not going into a trance or sucking at an unseen source of nectar. That is all gibberish. Madathil Nair --- svenkat52 <venkat52 wrote: > Namaste, > > After my post earlier in the day on this subject, I > came across this > interesting episode in the life of Ramana Maharshi > as narrated by > Kunjuswami: > > QUOTE > Sachidananda Yogeswara of Cuddapah was a famous > hatha yogi.Once he > went round the whole country.He used to stay in > important places for > three days and give talks.He came to the ashram also > and talked to > Sri Bhagvan and returned to where he was staying in > the town.We were > asked by his followers to listen to his > talks.Palaniswami and i > went there. > > At that time we were told that Yogeswara was in > samadhi.One of his > followers said,"He is in samadhi now.He will wake up > at a particular > time and give his talk at a particular time." > > Then he asked us,"When is your Bhagvan in samadhi?" > When he heard > this question,Sri Palaniswami burst out laughing.I > said,"For a > jnani,there is no specific time for being awake or > in samadhi.He was > amused at your question." > > It is said in Vasishtam also that whatever he might > be doing,a jnani > never goes into or out of samadhi.He is always in > samadhi though he > may be engaged in wordly activities.I told him that > Sri Bhagvan was > always in samadhi. > > When i returned to the ashram,Sri Bhagvan asked me > what had happened > at the hatha yogi's place.I told him the whole > thing.Sri Bhagvan said > with a smile,"People think that samadhi is limited > to some time and > place.Sitting in one place and keeping the eyes > closed is said to be > samadhi.What can we do?" > > There is a verse in Vasishtam: > > A person may be in padmasana but if he does not > enjoy Bliss,he cannot > be said to be in samadhi.The greatest samadhi is to > throw desires > into the fire of Self-realisation.To be outwardly > quiet without > inward peace is not samadhi. > > Sri Bhagvan had Himeself said in Verse 31 of the > appendix to Ulladu > Narpadu (Reality in Forty verses): > > A man who is asleep in a cart is hardly aware of the > movement of the > cart,its stopping or the unyoking of the bullocks.So > does a jnani > sleep in the body.He is hardly aware of > work,samadhiand sleep.They > are all the same to him. > UNQUOTE > > I would very much like to learn from the views of > list members on > this episode. Many thanks and Regards, > > Venkat > > > Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Namaste Venkatji: I am a devotee of Sri Ramana Maharshi. Since you already read his works, not much else can be added. I am a college professor and next week when I am back in the office can type up an introduction. I have written in the past on the Heart and Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Self-Realization. Gloria Lee, who is the editor of the HS Magazine, is on this list I believe. I will ask her to help me collect these posts and those by Sri Murthyji and the quotes given by Sri Sunderji and put them in the next issue which will be coming out in a month or so. Love to all Harsha advaitin, "svenkat52" <venkat52@s...> wrote: > > > > The Beauty of Nirvikalpa for a spiritually mature > > person is that One Realizes that One is not in the > > present moment but One Is the Present Moment. One is > > not in the "now". One Is the "Now". One is not in the > > Self, One Is the Self. How can one talk of Self. What > > reference point can be used? > > > Namaste Harshaji, > > I don't think a better description than this is possible. I have also > been meditating for the past two years. I follow the Buddhist Shamata > Technique of Breath Observation. I come out of it with a sense of > peace which keeps me company for a larger part of the day. But it is > nowhere near the experience you describe which is probably what I > have been seeking without knowing how to articulate it. Could you > please refer me to some source, be it a book or an URL or some > article that you yourself might have written, where I may find > techniques which if diligently followed may lead me to THAT > Nirvikalpa. > > Sir, being a new comer to this list, I also find that I don't know > anything about you. Could you please ahare with me such of the dtails > as are relevant to the Quest which has brought us in contact. With > regards, > > Venkat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Namaste Venkatji, > I have also > been meditating for the past two years. I follow the Buddhist Shamata > Technique of Breath Observation. > It is interesting that several of the Buddhist techniques have close relationship with the vedantic or yogic meditation techniques. for example, the Vipassana meditation (also called insight meditation) technique is very similar to the witness technique in vedanta. As Adi Sankara says in His Hatha-Yoga work "Yoga Taravali" there are one crore (100X100000) ways of absorptions! > I come out of it with a sense of > peace which keeps me company for a larger part of the day. good. better health, reduced blood pressure, more energy, improved stamina, improved enjoyment of life overall etc etc are all benefits of meditation regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2002 Report Share Posted January 18, 2002 Hi Shri Sundarrajan! Permit me to say the following: It is said that meditation is just dropping down false identifications and being oneself spontaneously. So, do we have to use the terminology "technique" to describe meditation? Does that not impart a meaning of deliberate doing and sense of doership which are real impediments to self-realization. Secondly, about better health, reduced blood pressure etc., do we have any scientific evidence? I have seen immense number of scientific papers refuting the claim that meditation reduces blood pressure. My BP is a little erratic and the systolic is often on the wrong side - marginally of course. I have a BP meter at home and my readings immediately after meditation have invaiably been on the higher side. Appreciate comments from other Members too. Namaskar to everyone. Madathil Nair --- avsundarrajan <avsundarrajan wrote: > Namaste Venkatji, > > I have also > > been meditating for the past two years. I follow > the Buddhist > Shamata > > Technique of Breath Observation. > > > It is interesting that several of the Buddhist > techniques have close > relationship with the vedantic or yogic meditation > techniques. for > example, the Vipassana meditation (also called > insight meditation) > technique is very similar to the witness technique > in vedanta. As Adi > Sankara says in His Hatha-Yoga work "Yoga Taravali" > there are one > crore (100X100000) ways of absorptions! > > > I come out of it with a sense of > > peace which keeps me company for a larger part of > the day. > > good. better health, reduced blood pressure, more > energy, improved > stamina, improved enjoyment of life overall etc etc > are all benefits > of meditation > > regards > Sundar Rajan > > > > Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2002 Report Share Posted January 19, 2002 Hi Shri M Nair! > > Secondly, about better health, reduced blood pressure > etc., do we have any scientific evidence? I have seen > immense number of scientific papers refuting the claim > that meditation reduces blood pressure. > For every paper that refutes, you will probably find another paper that proves the positive results of meditation. Go to web sites like http://www.tm.org/ or http://www.realization.org/ or just search the web, you will find numerous references/papers attesting to the positive benefits of meditation. In any case, aside from the 'Scientific' basis, we have statements to support the claims in our scriptures. Svetesvatara Upanishad (II.13) says: Laghutvamarogyamalolupatvam varnaprasadam svarasausthavam ca; Gandha subho mutrapurisamalpam yogapravrttim prathamam vadanti The early signs of successful progress in Yoga are feeling of lightness of body, good health, steadiness, clear complexion (isn't this called tejas?), sweet voice (Swami Vivekananda used to mention this aspect), pleasant odour, and scanty excretions of urine and faeces. also there is supporting evidence from great yogis like Swami Vivekananda about the positive effects. Apart from all this one has to go by one's own personal experience. Personally, I have had improvements in health etc. In fact my statement "better health, reduced blood pressure, more energy, improved stamina, improved enjoyment of life overall etc are all benefits of meditation" was not based on research or books but merely a statement of my personal experience after re-starting meditation (after a gap of 15 odd years ) last year. > My BP is a > little erratic and the systolic is often on the wrong > side - marginally of course. I have a BP meter at > home and my readings immediately after meditation have > invaiably been on the higher side. > What can I say? My BP is on the lower side. In fact, the people in my gym when they first took my BP measurements, did it twice because they thought the first results were too low and erroneous!. regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2002 Report Share Posted January 19, 2002 > My BP is a > little erratic and the systolic is often on the wrong > side - marginally of course. I have a BP meter at > home and my readings immediately after meditation have > invaiably been on the higher side. > Well i would suggest you not to meditate. Meditation should be done for the sake of meditation not lower ur BP. The very anxiety that you have when you measure ur BP after meditation would probably cause your BP to go up. The hindu scriptures clearly say do everything for it's sake not for the sake of that action's fruit. You have to be genuinely interested in meditation to have its effect. Try to find out what interests you and do it and you probably would see ur BP going down. After all Bhagwat Gita states that each and every person has his own Path (Meditation, Prayer, Knowledge etc). And it is upto us to find out which path would give us satisfaction and contentment of heart. Karthik avsundarrajan [avsundarrajan] Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:43 AM advaitin Re: deep-sleep and samAdhi Hi Shri M Nair! > > Secondly, about better health, reduced blood pressure > etc., do we have any scientific evidence? I have seen > immense number of scientific papers refuting the claim > that meditation reduces blood pressure. > For every paper that refutes, you will probably find another paper that proves the positive results of meditation. Go to web sites like http://www.tm.org/ or http://www.realization.org/ or just search the web, you will find numerous references/papers attesting to the positive benefits of meditation. In any case, aside from the 'Scientific' basis, we have statements to support the claims in our scriptures. Svetesvatara Upanishad (II.13) says: Laghutvamarogyamalolupatvam varnaprasadam svarasausthavam ca; Gandha subho mutrapurisamalpam yogapravrttim prathamam vadanti The early signs of successful progress in Yoga are feeling of lightness of body, good health, steadiness, clear complexion (isn't this called tejas?), sweet voice (Swami Vivekananda used to mention this aspect), pleasant odour, and scanty excretions of urine and faeces. also there is supporting evidence from great yogis like Swami Vivekananda about the positive effects. Apart from all this one has to go by one's own personal experience. Personally, I have had improvements in health etc. In fact my statement "better health, reduced blood pressure, more energy, improved stamina, improved enjoyment of life overall etc are all benefits of meditation" was not based on research or books but merely a statement of my personal experience after re-starting meditation (after a gap of 15 odd years ) last year. > My BP is a > little erratic and the systolic is often on the wrong > side - marginally of course. I have a BP meter at > home and my readings immediately after meditation have > invaiably been on the higher side. > What can I say? My BP is on the lower side. In fact, the people in my gym when they first took my BP measurements, did it twice because they thought the first results were too low and erroneous!. regards Sundar Rajan Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2002 Report Share Posted January 19, 2002 Hi Mr. Karthik! I am afraid your comment is rather off the mark. First of all who told you that I am meditating to reduce my BP. Like you all, I meditate for the sake of spiritual unfoldment and know fully well that hypertension cannot come in the way of my spiritual endeavours. I do feel fresh and have a sense of well being after meditation. However, I don't permit my feelings or, for that matter, widely held notions and opinions to cloud my objectivity, because I find absolutely no empirical evidence to conclude that my meditation has in any way favourably influenced my metabolic processes. It is a known fact that hypertension is often without symptoms. A sense of well being, therefore, does not necessarily mean normal BP. Your point about anxiety affecting BP readings is more relevant in a non-meditating person, as one is likely to be more composed and free from anxiety after meditation. And, lastly, is it not better that we stick to the spiritual side of our discussion than stray into the corporeal plane where empirical evidence is most important? Thanks. Madathil Nair --- Karthik Seetharaman <karthikseetharaman wrote: > > My BP is a > > little erratic and the systolic is often on the > wrong > > side - marginally of course. I have a BP meter at > > home and my readings immediately after meditation > have > > invaiably been on the higher side. > > > > Well i would suggest you not to meditate. Meditation > should be done for the > sake of meditation not lower ur BP. The very anxiety > that you have when you > measure ur BP after meditation would probably cause > your BP to go up. The > hindu scriptures clearly say do everything for it's > sake not for the sake of > that action's fruit. You have to be genuinely > interested in meditation to > have its effect. Try to find out what interests you > and do it and you > probably would see ur BP going down. After all > Bhagwat Gita states that each > and every person has his own Path (Meditation, > Prayer, Knowledge etc). And > it is upto us to find out which path would give us > satisfaction and > contentment of heart. > > Karthik > > > avsundarrajan [avsundarrajan] > Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:43 AM > advaitin > Re: deep-sleep and samAdhi > > > Hi Shri M Nair! > > > > Secondly, about better health, reduced blood > pressure > > etc., do we have any scientific evidence? I have > seen > > immense number of scientific papers refuting the > claim > > that meditation reduces blood pressure. > > > For every paper that refutes, you will probably find > another paper > that proves the positive results of meditation. Go > to web sites like > http://www.tm.org/ or http://www.realization.org/ or > just search the > web, you will find numerous references/papers > attesting to the > positive benefits of meditation. > > In any case, aside from the 'Scientific' basis, we > have statements > to support the claims in our scriptures. > Svetesvatara Upanishad > (II.13) says: > Laghutvamarogyamalolupatvam > varnaprasadam svarasausthavam ca; > Gandha subho mutrapurisamalpam > yogapravrttim prathamam vadanti > The early signs of successful progress in Yoga are > feeling of > lightness of body, good health, steadiness, clear > complexion (isn't > this called tejas?), sweet voice (Swami Vivekananda > used to mention > this aspect), pleasant odour, and scanty excretions > of urine and > faeces. > > also there is supporting evidence from great yogis > like > Swami Vivekananda about the positive effects. > > Apart from all this one has to go by one's own > personal > experience. Personally, I have had improvements in > health etc. In > fact my statement "better health, reduced blood > pressure, more > energy, improved stamina, improved enjoyment of life > overall etc are > all benefits of meditation" was not based on > research or books but > merely a statement of my personal experience after > re-starting > meditation (after a gap of 15 odd years ) last year. > > > My BP is a > > little erratic and the systolic is often on the > wrong > > side - marginally of course. I have a BP meter at > > home and my readings immediately after meditation > have > > invaiably been on the higher side. > > > What can I say? My BP is on the lower side. In fact, > the people in > my gym when they first took my BP measurements, did > it twice because > they thought the first results were too low and > erroneous!. > > regards > Sundar Rajan > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy > of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : > advaitin > Messages Archived at: > advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2002 Report Share Posted January 19, 2002 Hi Shri Sundarrajan! I have already posted a detailed message to Shri Karthik explaining my point of view. Kindly read it. May I point out that the two sites and references recommended by you are not purely scientific and empirical? I can't understand the relevance of your low BP to our discussion. However, if you have empirical evidence to prove that meditation can raise that to normal levels, I would much appreciate receiving such proof. If you say an increased intake of salt raises your BP, I can accept it without qualms because the relation between sodium and hypertension has been empirically proved. I hope I have made myself very clear. Thanks and regards. Madathil Nair --- avsundarrajan <avsundarrajan wrote: > Hi Shri M Nair! > > > > Secondly, about better health, reduced blood > pressure > > etc., do we have any scientific evidence? I have > seen > > immense number of scientific papers refuting the > claim > > that meditation reduces blood pressure. > > > For every paper that refutes, you will probably find > another paper > that proves the positive results of meditation. Go > to web sites like > http://www.tm.org/ or http://www.realization.org/ or > just search the > web, you will find numerous references/papers > attesting to the > positive benefits of meditation. > > In any case, aside from the 'Scientific' basis, we > have statements > to support the claims in our scriptures. > Svetesvatara Upanishad > (II.13) says: > Laghutvamarogyamalolupatvam > varnaprasadam svarasausthavam ca; > Gandha subho mutrapurisamalpam > yogapravrttim prathamam vadanti > The early signs of successful progress in Yoga are > feeling of > lightness of body, good health, steadiness, clear > complexion (isn't > this called tejas?), sweet voice (Swami Vivekananda > used to mention > this aspect), pleasant odour, and scanty excretions > of urine and > faeces. > > also there is supporting evidence from great yogis > like > Swami Vivekananda about the positive effects. > > Apart from all this one has to go by one's own > personal > experience. Personally, I have had improvements in > health etc. In > fact my statement "better health, reduced blood > pressure, more > energy, improved stamina, improved enjoyment of life > overall etc are > all benefits of meditation" was not based on > research or books but > merely a statement of my personal experience after > re-starting > meditation (after a gap of 15 odd years ) last year. > > > My BP is a > > little erratic and the systolic is often on the > wrong > > side - marginally of course. I have a BP meter at > > home and my readings immediately after meditation > have > > invaiably been on the higher side. > > > What can I say? My BP is on the lower side. In fact, > the people in > my gym when they first took my BP measurements, did > it twice because > they thought the first results were too low and > erroneous!. > > regards > Sundar Rajan > > > Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2002 Report Share Posted January 19, 2002 With reference to your discussion on "Meditation", we may ponder a bit on the statement made by Shri Dattatreya Avadhuta in his "Avadhuta Gita" Ch.1V verse 24 as follows: Dhyaanaani sarvaani parityajanti, shubaashubham karma parityajanti, tyaagamrutam taata pibanti dheeraaha, swarupa nirvaanamanomayoham ! Meaning: O my dear,the wise men give up all types of meditation as well as all types of action- good or bad.They drink the nectar of renunciation. I am by nature blissful and free! The Avadhuta concludes this Chapter in sloka 25 ,as follows: Vindati vindati nahi nahi yatra, Chandholakshanam nahi nahi tatra, Samarasamagnobhaavita puutaha, Pralapati tatvam paramavadhutaha! Meaning: Where the intellect cannot reach,how can there be any form of composotion? The great Avadhuta,after purifying himself throughmeditation and becoming absorbed in Infinite Bliss,has sung spontaneously about Brahman! Hari Om! Swaminarayan --- Madathil Nair <madathilnair wrote: > Hi Shri Sundarrajan! Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2002 Report Share Posted January 20, 2002 --- Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan wrote: > With reference to your discussion on "Meditation", > we > may ponder a bit on the statement made by Shri > Dattatreya Avadhuta in his "Avadhuta Gita" Ch.1V > verse > 24 as follows: > > Dhyaanaani sarvaani parityajanti, > shubaashubham karma parityajanti, > tyaagamrutam taata pibanti dheeraaha, > swarupa nirvaanamanomayoham ! > > Meaning: > > O my dear,the wise men give up all types of > meditation > as well as all types of action- good or bad.They > drink > the nectar of renunciation. I am by nature blissful > and free! > > The Avadhuta concludes this Chapter in sloka 25 ,as > follows: > > Vindati vindati nahi nahi yatra, > Chandholakshanam nahi nahi tatra, > Samarasamagnobhaavita puutaha, > Pralapati tatvam paramavadhutaha! > > Meaning: > > Where the intellect cannot reach,how can there be > any > form of composotion? The great Avadhuta,after > purifying himself throughmeditation and becoming > absorbed in Infinite Bliss,has sung spontaneously > about Brahman! Namaste once again, Thank you for giving the references and Sanskrit especially as my copy of Avadhut Gita is one translated by H.P.Shastri and has no Sanskrit so I am totally dependant upon the English words. Could you please let me have details of your version? Also my verses do not tie in with your numbers. The shloka 10...not 25..... in my version gives: 'Giving up all meditations, all good and evil karma, dringking the water of immortality, the heroes know that I from the taint of Nirvana am free.' It is useful now to know which word was being used for 'meditation'....dhyaana. The first shloka of the chapter 4 is worth quoting in this thread: 'Nothing can be added to or taken away from the Universal Consciousness. It cannot be worshipped with flowers and leaves. Meditations and Mantrams cannot reach It. How could it be worshipped as Shiva for in It there are neither distinctions nor unity.' Or in relation to some of the comments in this thread, the shlokas in my version are 16,17 and read: 'Why this craving for power, O Companion, when in truth wealth is not thine. 'Mine' and 'Thine' are not in thee. In thy heart there is no meditator, there is no Samadhi, nor is there any possibility of meditation in Atman. Time and causation never existed in thee.' Being the Avadhut Gita the chapter then concludes: 21.' Renounce, renounce the world, and also renounce renunciation and even give up the absence of renunciation. By nature all-pervasive as space, knowledge absolute art thou.' Ken Knight Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 advaitin, Madathil Nair <madathilnair> wrote: > Hi Shri Sundarrajan! > > Secondly, about better health, reduced blood pressure > etc., do we have any scientific evidence? I have seen > immense number of scientific papers refuting the claim > that meditation reduces blood pressure. Pranayama has scientific basis, says US expert NEW DELHI: Yogic breathing techniques may be doing much more than relieving stress. A senior psychiatrist at Columbia University, New York, Dr Richard P Brown, says certain techniques may actually help people connect better with each other and regulate their dietary intake and thereby help lose weight. In New Delhi to participate in a two-day international symposium on Sudarshan Kriya, Pranayam and consciousness organised by the Institute Rotary Cancer Hospital at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences in association with the Times Foundation, which concluded on Sunday, Brown has been experimenting with meditation techniques to cure his patients of depression. Here is how, he explains, yogic breathing techniques such as Pranayam and Sudarshan Kriya can activate certain positive bodily processes: Rapid breathing activates a nerve, Vagus, that connects with the diaphragm and some of the organs, including the heart and the brain. As a result of this stimulation, messages are sent along three different pathways that tell the body to shut off areas of worry while awakening areas that control feelings of happiness in the brain. So, one pathway is created that leads up to the frontal cortex of the brain and starts shutting down areas controlling excess worries and depressions. Another pathway shuts off anxiety producing parts of the brain stem and a third wakes up the limbic system, which controls positive emotions, explains Brown. At the same time hormones are released that encourage connectedness in mammals. One such hormone, called the Cuddle hormone, released during sexual activity and also after child birth, is said to be released after the Sudarshan Kriya. The hormone encourages bonding. He said that quite early on in his practice of psychiatry he began getting dissatisfied with the effects of drugs. I began looking for natural treatments. People responded to it very well. He then tried meditative techniques, but some of them were found to be strenous. The best results so far have been with Sudarshan Kriya, he said. Other techniques are either so difficult to do that people just stop practising them or take 30 years or more to show results, adds Brown, with a long standing interest in complementary medicine. The impact with the Art of Living course on Pranayam and Sudarshan Kriya, was so significant that I started sending people with horrible depressions and they became better, he added. People sent me thank you notes even months later.Doctors need to understand that there is a scientific basis to it and it is not just a suggestion. It helps control eating disorders as well. People often soothe themselves by eating. But after this course, as the tension drains off, people can actually begin to lose weight. The hormone that promotes connectedness also has a relationship with a peptide hormone. Controlling the release of this hormone can in turn influence hunger and the bodys ability to take only the required amount of food. People question me on whether I am following a cult and my answer has been If its a cult, its a cult of love. And it only encourages people to help others. For more information on Art of Living, contact, C-9 Greenpark Extension, Phone:6562606 or Dr Vinod Kochupillai, Head, Institute Rotary Cancer Hospital, AIIMS. Phone:6516821 -- Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Namaste With all respect, the matter of whether meditation, (however that may be defined) increases one's bodily health is at the best irrelevant and, more likely, a distraction from what is the real issue, which is "Who am I and am I going to die?". The body is a train travelling directly to the grave and worms. There can be no doubt about that. Whether you travel first or second class is neither here nor there. But, do you consider yourself to be a passenger in the train? If you do, worms are the only thing that you can be sure of. There are people who talk about death as "leaving the body". This is not true. You were never in the body, the body is in you. People talk about being in a bad mood and this is the same kind of misunderstanding; the moods, good or bad, are in you. The body and the mind are no better than toys. It is a good subject matter for fitness magazines and moralists and political scientists (although politics is no more a science than pep talks or the casting of spells). But it is silly that a discussion, an enquiry, into the spiritual realm should concern itself about whether meditation lowers your blood pressure. It like debating whether this form of cyanide tastes better than that form of cyanide. Regards Warwick - avsundarrajan advaitin Friday, March 08, 2002 12:07 PM Re: deep-sleep and samAdhi advaitin, Madathil Nair <madathilnair> wrote: > Hi Shri Sundarrajan! > > Secondly, about better health, reduced blood pressure > etc., do we have any scientific evidence? I have seen > immense number of scientific papers refuting the claim > that meditation reduces blood pressure. Pranayama has scientific basis, says US expert NEW DELHI: Yogic breathing techniques may be doing much more than relieving stress. A senior psychiatrist at Columbia University, New York, Dr Richard P Brown, says certain techniques may actually help people connect better with each other and regulate their dietary intake and thereby help lose weight. In New Delhi to participate in a two-day international symposium on Sudarshan Kriya, Pranayam and consciousness organised by the Institute Rotary Cancer Hospital at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences in association with the Times Foundation, which concluded on Sunday, Brown has been experimenting with meditation techniques to cure his patients of depression. -- Sundar Rajan Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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