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The fundamental doctrine of Advaita is "tat tvam asi" in its most

personal sense. You are the Atman and it is because of ignorance that

you are not aware of it. Though there's the distinction between the

phenomenal self (jiva) and the real self (atman), still Advaita

advocates that even the atman is nothing but you in the deepest

sense. You are pure consciousness and due to ignorance (avidya) you

superimpose qualities of all the objects you experience (including

the mind and body) on yourself and hence the case of mistaken

identity where you who are the pure and free mistake yourself for the

impure and bound. So Advaita without doubt teaches "aham brahmaasmi"

or "I'm Brahman" in a personal sense and clearly advocates the link

between the "I" and the Atman.

 

We'd like to raise the following questions to question the "I"ness of

the Atman :

 

1. The classical Advaita path of self-introspection, the neti,

neti or the subject versus the object approach, where we discriminate

and reject all that is not us also implies the "I"ness of the Atman.

If such a path is to be true then the path to liberation is very

clear and self-effort by itself should fetch liberation ie after

rejecting everything that's not ourselves we should remain in the end

as the pure Atman. If that's so then why does Shankara still assert

that in the ultimate moment liberation is only possible due to divine

grace?

2. A thing in itself by logic should be true to its own nature

and it cannot have a nature in opposition to its own true nature ie

light cannot entertain darkness within itself nor vice versa. Even as

Gaudapaada says : "By the word nature is to be understood that which

is permanently acquired, or is intrinsic, instinctive, non-produced,

or unchanging in its character". So if we are the Atman whose nature

is existence, knowledge and bliss (sat-chit-aananda), ignorance

cannot be an integral part of us – if that is so why are we not then

aware of our true nature?

3. If ignorance is something apart from us and we are the

consciousness-in-itself, as is the import of the superimposition

theory which advocates that we as the consciousness superimpose on

ourselves the qualities of the objects that we experience, then we

should be fully aware of ourselves as the consciousness in itself

apart from the mind, body and senses – in short then we being the

pure consciousness should already be liberated and there should be no

question of seeking salvation. But not only are we not liberated but

also being consciousness itself is not common experience as nobody is

aware of consciousness in itself. All consciousness that we know is

only by its manifestations through the senses, mind and body. So how

can it be said that we are the consciousness who superimpose on

ourselves the qualities of all the objects that we perceive?

4. The argument that we know ourselves as the same person who

experienced the past and the present ie the "I"ness of the

presentation continuum, is not a valid argument to prove "I"ness of

consciousness. Such an argument uses the faculty of memory as an

integral part of the self where the self recognizes itself as the

same witness which experienced the past and present events. But there

are cases of people who've lost their memory and have no recollection

of the past. If memory belonged to consciousness, it being the ever

present witness, such a thing as "loss of memory" would not be

possible. So how can it be said that we are the consciousness?

5. Man is a psycho/physical/spiritual being – he's made up of

the body, mind, senses and consciousness or spirit. While he is a

compound of all these in the waking state, in the dream state the

body and the senses are absent. In the deep sleep state he is said to

be one with the spirit ie consciousness is said to abide in itself.

But again when there's no I-consciousness in deep sleep ie we do not

directly experience the state of deep sleep as we do in the waking

and dream states and only know the "peace of deep sleep" when we come

awake, how can we say that we are the consciousness that experienced

peace in deep sleep?

6. Also it is said that knower, known and knowledge are all

merged together in deep sleep. If the knower also doesn't exist by

itself in deep sleep then how can we claim to be that consciousness

of that state?

7. The presentation continuum which survives deep sleep and thus

facilitates the persistence of the individual identity need not

necessarily be the "I". A logically consistent explanation can also

be provided using the permanence of consciousness and the memory as

part of the brain to sustain one's identity through deep sleep and

waking.

8. When we think about the states where we have the "I"

consciousness ie the state of waking and dream, we find that the "I"

is always associated with the body. For even in the state of dream

though it is purely a product of the mind, still we have a body with

which we run, jump etc. So can there be "I"ness without the body?

 

By all these questions I'm not in anyway questioning the existence of

the Atman as pure consciousness. I'm only questioning whether

the "I"ness can be attributed to the Atman. The above questions are

inspired by the adorable Gaudapaada's assertion that : "He who sees

the Lord as untouched by conceptions of self, not-self, both or

neither (the classic Maadhyamika Chatushkoti), is omniscient".

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>

> vpcnk [vpcnk]

> Saturday, January 26, 2002 7:09 AM

> advaitin

> Tat tvam asi?

>

>

> The fundamental doctrine of Advaita is "tat tvam asi" in its most

> personal sense. You are the Atman and it is because of ignorance that

> you are not aware of it. Though there's the distinction between the

> phenomenal self (jiva) and the real self (atman), still Advaita

> advocates that even the atman is nothing but you in the deepest

> sense. You are pure consciousness and due to ignorance (avidya) you

> superimpose qualities of all the objects you experience (including

> the mind and body) on yourself and hence the case of mistaken

> identity where you who are the pure and free mistake yourself for the

> impure and bound. So Advaita without doubt teaches "aham brahmaasmi"

> or "I'm Brahman" in a personal sense and clearly advocates the link

> between the "I" and the Atman.

>

> We'd like to raise the following questions to question the "I"ness of

> the Atman :

 

I claim no scholarly expertise, but it seems that the clearest

intellectual answer to your inquiry would be: who else would we be but

consciousness?

 

1) We are not that which we observe.

2) During the waking state, we can observe our minds and bodies and,

according to the masters, even our own egos.

3) Since we are not those things, the only thing that remains that we

could be during the waking state is consciousness.

4) Consciousness is eternal and unchanging.

5) Thus if consciousness is identical with us during the waking state,

that aspect of consciousness cannot change in other states (otherwise it

would not be unchanging).

6) Therefore, we must consciousness in all other states as well.

 

So, then, quick responses to your objections below.

> 1. The classical Advaita path of self-introspection, the neti,

> neti or the subject versus the object approach, where we discriminate

> and reject all that is not us also implies the "I"ness of the Atman.

> If such a path is to be true then the path to liberation is very

> clear and self-effort by itself should fetch liberation ie after

> rejecting everything that's not ourselves we should remain in the end

> as the pure Atman. If that's so then why does Shankara still assert

> that in the ultimate moment liberation is only possible due to divine

> grace?

 

We are the divine. The "self" which puts in "effort" is not our true

self--it is merely the mind.

> 2. A thing in itself by logic should be true to its own nature

> and it cannot have a nature in opposition to its own true nature ie

> light cannot entertain darkness within itself nor vice versa. Even as

> Gaudapaada says : "By the word nature is to be understood that which

> is permanently acquired, or is intrinsic, instinctive, non-produced,

> or unchanging in its character". So if we are the Atman whose nature

> is existence, knowledge and bliss (sat-chit-aananda), ignorance

> cannot be an integral part of us - if that is so why are we not then

> aware of our true nature?

 

We are aware of our true nature; only the unreal mind is not aware of

it. As the unreal mind attempts to realize its own phenomenality, it

extinguishes itself and all that's left is the Real.

> 3. If ignorance is something apart from us and we are the

> consciousness-in-itself, as is the import of the superimposition

> theory which advocates that we as the consciousness superimpose on

> ourselves the qualities of the objects that we experience, then we

> should be fully aware of ourselves as the consciousness in itself

> apart from the mind, body and senses - in short then we being the

> pure consciousness should already be liberated and there should be no

> question of seeking salvation. But not only are we not liberated but

> also being consciousness itself is not common experience as nobody is

> aware of consciousness in itself. All consciousness that we know is

> only by its manifestations through the senses, mind and body. So how

> can it be said that we are the consciousness who superimpose on

> ourselves the qualities of all the objects that we perceive?

 

But what is not liberated; what is only aware of manifestations? It is

only supposed to be the mind. The mind is only a limited awareness,

which strives to realize that its limited nature is not the true nature

of its thinker. Consciousness-in-itself cannot be "known" in the

conventional sense.

> 4. The argument that we know ourselves as the same person who

> experienced the past and the present ie the "I"ness of the

> presentation continuum, is not a valid argument to prove "I"ness of

> consciousness. Such an argument uses the faculty of memory as an

> integral part of the self where the self recognizes itself as the

> same witness which experienced the past and present events. But there

> are cases of people who've lost their memory and have no recollection

> of the past. If memory belonged to consciousness, it being the ever

> present witness, such a thing as "loss of memory" would not be

> possible. So how can it be said that we are the consciousness?

 

Sorry, but I don't understand the argument-from-memory well enough to

address it.

> 5. Man is a psycho/physical/spiritual being - he's made up of

> the body, mind, senses and consciousness or spirit. While he is a

> compound of all these in the waking state, in the dream state the

> body and the senses are absent. In the deep sleep state he is said to

> be one with the spirit ie consciousness is said to abide in itself.

> But again when there's no I-consciousness in deep sleep ie we do not

> directly experience the state of deep sleep as we do in the waking

> and dream states and only know the "peace of deep sleep" when we come

> awake, how can we say that we are the consciousness that experienced

> peace in deep sleep?

 

If we are the consciousness that experiences waking, and consciousness

is unchanging, then we are the consciousness that also "experiences"

deep sleep.

> 6. Also it is said that knower, known and knowledge are all

> merged together in deep sleep. If the knower also doesn't exist by

> itself in deep sleep then how can we claim to be that consciousness

> of that state?

 

What makes you think that we are only the knower? If we are

consciousness in the waking state, and consciousness continues to exist

in the deep sleep state, and we are identical with consciousness in the

waking state, in the deep sleep state, we must be consciousness also,

just not conscious OF the waking "knower."

> 7. The presentation continuum which survives deep sleep and thus

> facilitates the persistence of the individual identity need not

> necessarily be the "I". A logically consistent explanation can also

> be provided using the permanence of consciousness and the memory as

> part of the brain to sustain one's identity through deep sleep and

> waking.

 

Same thing here about if we are consciousness in the waking state we are

consciousness in sleep as well...

> 8. When we think about the states where we have the "I"

> consciousness ie the state of waking and dream, we find that the "I"

> is always associated with the body. For even in the state of dream

> though it is purely a product of the mind, still we have a body with

> which we run, jump etc. So can there be "I"ness without the body?

 

But the whole point of advaita is that the association if "I"-ness with

the body is false. Just because it is common doesn't mean it's correct.

> By all these questions I'm not in anyway questioning the existence of

> the Atman as pure consciousness. I'm only questioning whether

> the "I"ness can be attributed to the Atman. The above questions are

> inspired by the adorable Gaudapaada's assertion that : "He who sees

> the Lord as untouched by conceptions of self, not-self, both or

> neither (the classic Maadhyamika Chatushkoti), is omniscient".

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Hari Om !!

 

The questioins raised by you are fit for an enquirer. I am having

(rather had) similar questions. The only thing I wanted to highlight

here is that you must read a small book called "Advaita Bodha

Deepika" published by Sri Ramanasramam. The book answeres the same

questions logically one after the other. As the questions are many

and connected, one should not try to answer them in isolation. So, I

urge you to refer to that book and then kindly get in touch with me

through this forum or directly through my personal e-mail. I too have

some questions (though I understand answers to some of your

questions). We may be helpful to each other.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya !!

 

Srikrishna

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namaste. I will try to respond to these questions from my

limited understanding.

> [...]

> We'd like to raise the following questions to question the "I"ness of

> the Atman :

>

> 1. The classical Advaita path of self-introspection, the neti,

> neti or the subject versus the object approach, where we discriminate

> and reject all that is not us also implies the "I"ness of the Atman.

> If such a path is to be true then the path to liberation is very

> clear and self-effort by itself should fetch liberation ie after

> rejecting everything that's not ourselves we should remain in the end

> as the pure Atman. If that's so then why does Shankara still assert

> that in the ultimate moment liberation is only possible due to divine

> grace?

 

Liberation cannot be a product of self-effort. As shri shankara

said in many instances, the self-effort can be done the right way,

the wrong way, or not done at all; i.e. moksha would be a hit-or-a-

miss, i.e. jIvaA can be mired in avidyA ad infinitum. That cannot

be the case. At the 'ultimate moment', there is no liberation,

there is no divine grace (there is no ultimate moment either).

These are all concepts that fall out as jnAna dawns.

> 2. A thing in itself by logic should be true to its own nature

> and it cannot have a nature in opposition to its own true nature ie

> light cannot entertain darkness within itself nor vice versa. Even as

> Gaudapaada says : "By the word nature is to be understood that which

> is permanently acquired, or is intrinsic, instinctive, non-produced,

> or unchanging in its character". So if we are the Atman whose nature

> is existence, knowledge and bliss (sat-chit-aananda), ignorance

> cannot be an integral part of us – if that is so why are we not then

> aware of our true nature?

 

Ignorance cannot be a part of pure Atman and never belongs to

Atman. Answer to the question "...why are we not then aware of

our pure nature?" can be presented this way.

 

It is ignorance that makes us see as what we are not. In

understanding tat tvam asi, one should first understand what

is tvam. If we take tvam as the ignorance-foisted body-mind-

complex, then we cannot be aware of our true nature. shri

shankara says in vAkyavr^itti what this tvam is:

 

dehendriya manaH prANAhamkr^itibhyo vilakshaNaH

projghitAsheshha shhaDbhAvavikAraH tvaM padAbhidaH

Shri Shankara in vAkyavri^tti

 

totally distinct from body, senses, mind, prANa, and ego;

and therefore is absolutely free from the six-modifications

that material things must undergo; that is the indicative

meaning of the term tvam.

 

If we see tvam as indicated above, then it would be easier to

see the identity of tvam and tat. While we can understand tat

much better, seeing tvam as apart from this body-mind-complex

is more difficult to grasp.

> 3. If ignorance is something apart from us and we are the

> consciousness-in-itself, as is the import of the superimposition

> theory which advocates that we as the consciousness superimpose on

> ourselves the qualities of the objects that we experience, then we

> should be fully aware of ourselves as the consciousness in itself

> apart from the mind, body and senses – in short then we being the

> pure consciousness should already be liberated and there should be no

> question of seeking salvation. But not only are we not liberated but

> also being consciousness itself is not common experience as nobody is

> aware of consciousness in itself. All consciousness that we know is

> only by its manifestations through the senses, mind and body. So how

> can it be said that we are the consciousness who superimpose on

> ourselves the qualities of all the objects that we perceive?

 

As long as liberation is sought by the *individual*, there is

no liberation. I like T.M.P. Mahadevan's statement "Moksha is

not freedom for the individual; it is freedom *from* individuality."

Also, sat-cit-Ananda is the Consciousness that I am. It is not

the consciousness that manifests through the senses, mind and

body.

> 4. The argument that we know ourselves as the same person who

> experienced the past and the present ie the "I"ness of the

> presentation continuum, is not a valid argument to prove "I"ness of

> consciousness. Such an argument uses the faculty of memory as an

> integral part of the self where the self recognizes itself as the

> same witness which experienced the past and present events. But there

> are cases of people who've lost their memory and have no recollection

> of the past. If memory belonged to consciousness, it being the ever

> present witness, such a thing as "loss of memory" would not be

> possible. So how can it be said that we are the consciousness?

 

For the Consciousness, there is no past, present or future. There

is no memory.

> 5. Man is a psycho/physical/spiritual being – he's made up of

> the body, mind, senses and consciousness or spirit. While he is a

> compound of all these in the waking state, in the dream state the

> body and the senses are absent. In the deep sleep state he is said to

> be one with the spirit ie consciousness is said to abide in itself.

> But again when there's no I-consciousness in deep sleep ie we do not

> directly experience the state of deep sleep as we do in the waking

> and dream states and only know the "peace of deep sleep" when we come

> awake, how can we say that we are the consciousness that experienced

> peace in deep sleep?

 

The same comment as in 4. The Consciousness is not the experiencer

of wake, dream and deep-sleep. It is the limited embodiment that

experiences wake, dream and deep-sleep.

 

For questions 6, 7 and 8, my only comment is: If there is nothing

aside from the Atman, then what is the difficulty in making the

identity of the "I-ness" with Atman? If there is something else

in these questions, I did not grasp it.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

---

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Namaste.

Thanks for a wonderful inquiry.

I will try to answer some of the questions, thereby attempting to

clarify my own understanding.

 

advaitin, "vpcnk" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

> The fundamental doctrine of Advaita is "tat tvam asi" in its most

> personal sense.

Yes and no regarding personal-sense. It is personal when we say

'Sat-Chit-Ananda' but is impersonal when left alone.

--

>You are the Atman and it is because of ignorance

>that

> you are not aware of it. Though there's the distinction between the

> phenomenal self (jiva) and the real self (atman), still Advaita

> advocates that even the atman is nothing but you in the deepest

> sense. You are pure consciousness and due to ignorance (avidya) you

> superimpose qualities of all the objects you experience (including

> the mind and body) on yourself and hence the case of mistaken

> identity where you who are the pure and free mistake yourself for

the

> impure and bound. So Advaita without doubt teaches "aham brahmaasmi"

> or "I'm Brahman" in a personal sense and clearly advocates the link

> between the "I" and the Atman.

>

> We'd like to raise the following questions to question the "I"ness

of

> the Atman :

>

> 1. The classical Advaita path of self-introspection, the neti,

> neti or the subject versus the object approach, where we

discriminate

> and reject all that is not us also implies the "I"ness of the Atman.

> If such a path is to be true then the path to liberation is very

> clear and self-effort by itself should fetch liberation ie after

> rejecting everything that's not ourselves we should remain in the

end

> as the pure Atman. If that's so then why does Shankara still assert

> that in the ultimate moment liberation is only possible due to

divine

> grace?

 

Is there anything that is not Divine grace ? This is not intended to

be a poetic question, but, as a matter of fact. In Ch.9 of Gita, it is

said that ...such and such a person is taken care of by the Divine.

----

> 2. A thing in itself by logic should be true to its own nature

> and it cannot have a nature in opposition to its own true nature ie

> light cannot entertain darkness within itself nor vice versa. Even

as

> Gaudapaada says : "By the word nature is to be understood that which

> is permanently acquired, or is intrinsic, instinctive, non-produced,

> or unchanging in its character". So if we are the Atman whose nature

> is existence, knowledge and bliss (sat-chit-aananda), ignorance

> cannot be an integral part of us – if that is so why are we not then

> aware of our true nature?

 

We are not always aware of everything even within the range of our

Indriyas. For eg., if I am talking on phone, I cannot hear another

conversation that is going on independantly beside me (,though this

conversation may the most important to stop the phone-call :-) ). Same

with a radio receiver; where we cannot listen to most of the

conversations which are going on right in front of us unless we tune

to a frequency correctly.

Coming back, ignorence may not be a part of Brahman, but, Brahman is

covered by ignorence; mind is deep-rooted in ignorence and we only use

mind to be aware of anything at all, usually.

-------

> 3. If ignorance is something apart from us and we are the

> consciousness-in-itself, as is the import of the superimposition

> theory which advocates that we as the consciousness superimpose on

> ourselves the qualities of the objects that we experience, then we

> should be fully aware of ourselves as the consciousness in itself

> apart from the mind, body and senses – in short then we being the

> pure consciousness should already be liberated and there should be

no

> question of seeking salvation. But not only are we not liberated but

> also being consciousness itself is not common experience as nobody

is

> aware of consciousness in itself. All consciousness that we know is

> only by its manifestations through the senses, mind and body. So how

> can it be said that we are the consciousness who superimpose on

> ourselves the qualities of all the objects that we perceive?

Proof of consciousness is in Yoga-vasishatam, I think. I will post it

separately later on.

> 4. The argument that we know ourselves as the same person who

> experienced the past and the present ie the "I"ness of the

> presentation continuum, is not a valid argument to prove "I"ness of

> consciousness. Such an argument uses the faculty of memory as an

> integral part of the self where the self recognizes itself as the

> same witness which experienced the past and present events. But

there

> are cases of people who've lost their memory and have no

recollection

> of the past. If memory belonged to consciousness, it being the ever

> present witness, such a thing as "loss of memory" would not be

> possible. So how can it be said that we are the consciousness?

Memory is physical and cannot belong to Consciousness. Further, same

answer as #3.

-----------------

> 5. Man is a psycho/physical/spiritual being – he's made up of

> the body, mind, senses and consciousness or spirit. While he is a

> compound of all these in the waking state, in the dream state the

> body and the senses are absent. In the deep sleep state he is said

to

> be one with the spirit ie consciousness is said to abide in itself.

> But again when there's no I-consciousness in deep sleep ie we do not

> directly experience the state of deep sleep as we do in the waking

> and dream states and only know the "peace of deep sleep" when we

come

> awake, how can we say that we are the consciousness that experienced

> peace in deep sleep?

 

As Shri Shankara asked an inquirer, who is it that is now asking the

question that there was peaceful sleep in deep-sleep and that one had

absence of perception ?

The knowledge in waking and dream states is same as in deep-sleep,

except that in deep-sleep it is the knowledge of the absence of

knowledge.

This in fact may point towards evidence for consciousness. I don't

know.

--------

> 6. Also it is said that knower, known and knowledge are all

> merged together in deep sleep. If the knower also doesn't exist by

> itself in deep sleep then how can we claim to be that consciousness

> of that state?

> 7. The presentation continuum which survives deep sleep and thus

> facilitates the persistence of the individual identity need not

> necessarily be the "I". A logically consistent explanation can also

> be provided using the permanence of consciousness and the memory as

> part of the brain to sustain one's identity through deep sleep and

> waking.

> 8. When we think about the states where we have the "I"

> consciousness ie the state of waking and dream, we find that the "I"

> is always associated with the body. For even in the state of dream

> though it is purely a product of the mind, still we have a body with

> which we run, jump etc. So can there be "I"ness without the body?

>

When we close our eyes and feel ourselves, we do not think of the body

but we think our thoughts or feelings thru the mind. This shows that

I-ness can be without body.

---------------------

 

Kind Regards,

Raghava

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Hari Om !!

 

Your questions have been addressed by Madathil Nair. Here is my

comment for your last point.

> By all these questions I'm not in anyway questioning the existence

of

> the Atman as pure consciousness. I'm only questioning whether

> the "I"ness can be attributed to the Atman. The above questions are

> inspired by the adorable Gaudapaada's assertion that : "He who sees

> the Lord as untouched by conceptions of self, not-self, both or

> neither (the classic Maadhyamika Chatushkoti), is omniscient".

 

In the beginning possibly "Yes" and surely at the end "NO" !!

 

In the beginning, because of the ignorance of the TRUTH, "I" start

Sravana and Manana, and discover that there indeed is EGO, and the

SELF. At the next stage "I" also discover that the consciousness in

me i.e ATMAN is also the consciousness under all the names and forms

of the universe. Till this point it proves only part of the "Tat Tvam

Asi". Rather we infer that Atman = Brahman. But the truth is whether

we infer or not Atman was ever be Brahman. My discovery or your

discovery does not make any difference to Brahman or Atman. So, it is

important for this Individual "I" to know that it is indeed

the "Atman" i.e to realise the truth in "Aham Brahmasmi". Till this

is achieved it is NOT LIBERATION or JIVANMUKTI. "I" can not remain as

individual and be Brahman because of the obvious differences in the

nature of both. Nidhidhyasa (Meditation) is the process for the

dissolution of this "individuality" and remain Brahman at all the

time.

 

I understand "Mind" has two aspects with-form and without-form (rupa

and arupa). At the realisation of "Aham Brahmasmi", the "MIND" ceases

to be in Form-aspect, and remains "Unmoded". If this is the stage

Atman will be the "I" ... truly speaking Atman or Brahman does not

have to say "I" .. to whom will it say ? by being non-dual. So, it

is the same "Individual" who remains as "I" in the unmoded (arupa)

form of MIND. This unmoded form of MIND dies away on disembodiment.

 

This is what I learnt from "Advaita Bodha Deepika". Hope this helps

you.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya !!

 

Srikrishna

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Hari OM !!

 

A few more words on "Aham Brahmasmi"

 

The process of Nidhidhyasa (Meditation on Brahman , i.e to remain as

brahman) is for the purpose of Vasana kshaya (destruction of

latencies) which take the moded form of MIND i.e Rupa aspect of MIND.

Once the Vasanas are destroyed i.e "Individuality" is destroyed the

Pure MIND remains without modifications as Arupa Mind in which

Brahman alone remains and the sage experiences the Bliss of Brahman.

Then only it is truly "Tat Tvam Asi"

 

Om Namo Narayanaya !!

 

Srikrishna

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The questions that I raised were fundamentally against the classical

Advaitic identification of the Atman with the "I". If I were not an

Advaitin would classical Advaitic concepts or quotes from Shankara

suffice? Philosophy is strictly based only on experience and reason.

It is from these twin bases that I need a reply.

> Liberation cannot be a product of self-effort. As shri shankara

> said in many instances, the self-effort can be done the right way,

> the wrong way, or not done at all; i.e. moksha would be a hit-or-a-

> miss, i.e. jIvaA can be mired in avidyA ad infinitum. That cannot

> be the case.

 

Then why is Shankara teaching the superimposition theory, the pancha

kosha theory, atma vichaaram etc All the praakarna grantha texts

which teach the classical Advaita path follow these fundamentals.

>At the 'ultimate moment', there is no liberation,

> there is no divine grace (there is no ultimate moment either).

> These are all concepts that fall out as jnAna dawns.

 

But is this common experience? Why are you learning Vedaanta if

there's no liberation, no divine grace etc etc?

> totally distinct from body, senses, mind, prANa, and ego;

> and therefore is absolutely free from the six-modifications

> that material things must undergo; that is the indicative

> meaning of the term tvam.

 

But such an entity is neither proved by logical reasoning nor common

experience.

> As long as liberation is sought by the *individual*, there is

> no liberation. I like T.M.P. Mahadevan's statement "Moksha is

> not freedom for the individual; it is freedom *from* individuality."

 

So why identify the Atman with the "I"?

> Also, sat-cit-Ananda is the Consciousness that I am. It is not

> the consciousness that manifests through the senses, mind and

> body.

 

But a consciousness-in-itself is not part of normal experience.

> For the Consciousness, there is no past, present or future. There

> is no memory.

 

Again, this isn't normal experience either - but only Advaita theory.

> The same comment as in 4. The Consciousness is not the experiencer

> of wake, dream and deep-sleep. It is the limited embodiment that

> experiences wake, dream and deep-sleep.

 

Ditto.

> For questions 6, 7 and 8, my only comment is: If there is nothing

> aside from the Atman, then what is the difficulty in making the

> identity of the "I-ness" with Atman? If there is something else

> in these questions, I did not grasp it.

 

Because the theory which is logically flawed cannot be the perfect

path to enlightenment.

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Namaste Nandaji:

 

I am somewhat puzzled by your statement. I am looking forward to hear

from you with details of a logically consistent theory with a perfect

path to enlightenment. Isn't beyond our intellect to logically

conceptualize a theory of self-realization?

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, "vpcnk" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

> ........

>

> Because the theory which is logically flawed cannot be the perfect

> path to enlightenment.

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namaste.

 

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, vpcnk wrote:

> The questions that I raised were fundamentally against the classical

> Advaitic identification of the Atman with the "I". If I were not an

> Advaitin would classical Advaitic concepts or quotes from Shankara

> suffice? Philosophy is strictly based only on experience and reason.

> It is from these twin bases that I need a reply.

>

 

Yes, shri shankara's statements would be sufficient. One of the

primary prerequisites of a sAdhaka is shraddha, the deep abiding

faith. When one has that, one's conviction is not changed easily

and one looks for verification of the truth inside oneself. Reason

plays a role *before* shraddha takes over. After shraddha takes

over, reason has only a minimal role. If one has shraddha, meaning

of one's experience and the interpretation of that experience will

be consistent with that shraddha.

> > Liberation cannot be a product of self-effort. As shri shankara

> > said in many instances, the self-effort can be done the right way,

> > the wrong way, or not done at all; i.e. moksha would be a hit-or-a-

> > miss, i.e. jIvaA can be mired in avidyA ad infinitum. That cannot

> > be the case.

>

> Then why is Shankara teaching the superimposition theory, the pancha

> kosha theory, atma vichaaram etc All the praakarna grantha texts

> which teach the classical Advaita path follow these fundamentals.

>

 

and as the last sentence of his post

> Because the theory which is logically flawed cannot be the perfect

> path to enlightenment.

>

 

We seem to have difference in what is advaita. I regard advaita

as the moksha itself. Advaita is not a path, and not a concept.

Also, I do not see why logic should control or should be the

deciding parameter. If we do not understand the logic of a

particular statement in the upanishads or of shri shankara,

it is more likely the result of deficiency of our logical

process and evolution rather than the deficiency of the

upanishadic statements.

 

shri shankara is saying: make yourself eligible for AtmavidyA

and then do shravaNa, manana, nidhidhyAsana. You will be

blessed with AtmavidyA which is advaita. I do not take advaita

as a path but as the state of being itself. If we take it as

a path, then there is a traveller on the path, and the emphasis

and the subjecthood is shifted to the so-called traveller of

the path. That would not lead to AtmavidyA.

> >At the 'ultimate moment', there is no liberation,

> > there is no divine grace (there is no ultimate moment either).

> > These are all concepts that fall out as jnAna dawns.

>

> But is this common experience? Why are you learning Vedaanta if

> there's no liberation, no divine grace etc etc?

>

 

Being blessed with AtmavidyA is not an everyday common experience

for everyone. Only a select few are blessed with that. You ask me

why I am learning vedAnta. I am learning vedAnta not with the

specific aim of liberation, but vedAnta (AtmavicAra) occurs to me

as the ultimate Knowledge.

> > totally distinct from body, senses, mind, prANa, and ego;

> > and therefore is absolutely free from the six-modifications

> > that material things must undergo; that is the indicative

> > meaning of the term tvam.

>

> But such an entity is neither proved by logical reasoning nor common

> experience.

>

 

Again, it is only a blessed few who realize what the real meaning

of tvam is. If it is not proved by logical reasoning, it is the

limitation of the logic rather than the limitation of the Truth.

> > As long as liberation is sought by the *individual*, there is

> > no liberation. I like T.M.P. Mahadevan's statement "Moksha is

> > not freedom for the individual; it is freedom *from* individuality."

>

> So why identify the Atman with the "I"?

>

 

Because everything emanates from the Atman and everything emanates

from the I and the Atman and the I are identical.

> > Also, sat-cit-Ananda is the Consciousness that I am. It is not

> > the consciousness that manifests through the senses, mind and

> > body.

>

> But a consciousness-in-itself is not part of normal experience.

>

> > For the Consciousness, there is no past, present or future. There

> > is no memory.

>

> Again, this isn't normal experience either - but only Advaita theory.

>

> > The same comment as in 4. The Consciousness is not the experiencer

> > of wake, dream and deep-sleep. It is the limited embodiment that

> > experiences wake, dream and deep-sleep.

>

> Ditto.

>

 

Our basic difference in understanding seems to be there. You

seem to take advaita as a path or a theory. I consider advaita

as the being. You seem to look for normal or common experience.

I say that experience can be misleading and that in order for

advaita to be the normal experience, the person has to have

that cittashuddhi and the deep abiding shraddha.

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

--

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> I am somewhat puzzled by your statement. I am looking forward to

hear

> from you with details of a logically consistent theory with a

perfect

> path to enlightenment. Isn't beyond our intellect to logically

> conceptualize a theory of self-realization?

>

> warmest regards,

 

Dear Ram, we should make a distinction between reality and the path

to attain it.

 

Two things to be considered for reality and the intellect :

 

1. When it is said that reality is indeed beyond the intellect it

means that its true nature is beyond the grasp of the mind. If we

take an object, say a stone, what we know of it is only its

attributes but we do not know its true nature - as it is in itself.

 

2. Also the Self is a thing in itself - it is neither the mind nor

the body. Salivation is being the Self - whether the mind knows it or

not is immaterial.

 

So where the path is concerned though reality cannot be known by the

intellect, all that is false can be proved so using reason. If you

cling to the imperfect path, you may or may not experience reality.

Even with these imperfect paths themselves some are better than

others. But still only that is logically flawless can be the perfect

path. That is why Gaudapaada teaches that only that which is taught

by the Vedas and affirmed by reason can be the truth and nothing else.

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Dear Nanda:

 

Let me try to recollect my understanding of the statement often stated

during Vedantic discussions in many lists including this one, "Shastra

Pramana." Here is my understanding.

 

The acceptance of any Vedanta Philosophy including the Advaita

Philosophy requires that is verifiable to the well established facts

of Vedas. Logic plays an important role in establishing the facts of

Vedas to the fullest satisfaction of scholars with different

background. Accordingly, Shankara was able to convince the scholars of

his time how Advaita Philosophy confirms with the statements of Vedas.

Later Ramanuja and Madhawa followed this well establishd tradition of

'Shastra Pramana' and refuted Shankara's claims using their

scholarship and logic. Fundamentally, faith plays and integral role in

the acceptance of any philosophy. Tis may explain why all the three

schools of thought (Advaita, Dwaita and Vishistadavita)have great

number of followers who do not see any logical flaws in what they

believe! In addition, those who have great faith in Buddhism did not

see any logical flaws in the 'sunya' theory.

 

When you say logical flaws, whose logic are you referring to? Those

who believe in certain notions based on certain 'faith' do not see eye

to eye on the logics of others with different notions and beliefs. The

result is partial or total disagreements between the believers and

such arguments are likely to continue with an endless doloop. In

conclusion, the question of 'perfect path.' and/or 'flawless logic'

soley depend one's faith and conviction, nothing more and nothing

less. For those of us who have great faith in Vedas and Shankara,

Advaita Philosophy is a logically flawless perfect path. I am just

reminded the famous quotation of St. Augustine with the subtle Truth:

"Faith is to believe what we don't see and its reward is to see what

we believe."

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

 

advaitin, "vpcnk" <vpcnk@H...> wrote:

>

> ..... But still only that is logically flawless can be the perfect

> path. That is why Gaudapaada teaches that only that which is taught

> by the Vedas and affirmed by reason can be the truth and nothing

else.

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Dear Ram, I wanted to come back to the question posed by you

yesterday regarding the validity of intellect/knowledge when pitted

against reality.

 

All spiritual teachers/schools of philosophy in India are unanimous

that reality is beyond the grasp of the intellect.

 

The following may be considered as the reasons for such a view :

 

1. What we know of an object is only its attributes and its uses

to our practical life ie for an apple we can say it has

seeds/flesh/skin and that it can be eaten. But what it is in itself –

its nature – is beyond our grasp. The truth of an apple is what it is

in itself and not what our intellect makes of it. Reality is a thing.

It is not an idea. The Self is generally defined as something apart

from the mind, body and senses – so whatever our intellect makes of

it, still the Self is something apart from it and in that sense,

reality is beyond the intellect.

2. Even as can be observed in the analysis of the three states

of waking, dream and deep sleep, while the mind is active in the

first two, it is inactive in the third state. In the state of deep

sleep consciousness exists in itself as is proven by the presentation

continuum which survives deep sleep and thus sustains our individual

identity. What this shows is that while the body, senses and mind

exists only in dependence on the underlying consciousness,

consciousness exists in itself. The function of the mind is primarily

objective in nature. Even as fire cannot burn itself nor the sword

cut itself, neither can the mind know itself subjectively. When it

cannot even know itself, how can it know that which powers it?

 

 

So what's the utility of the intellect in spiritual practice?

 

Man is essentially a thinking being. For the normal man during the

waking and the dream state, there's no point in time when the mind is

not at work either interpreting the data received from the senses or

churning out thoughts one after another. Simply put - to live is to

think.

 

Vedaanta shows that there's an unchanging substratum in our being –

consciousness in itself - which is proved in deep sleep. It is

because of this permanent consciousness that we wake up as the same

person who went to sleep – it is what sustains our identity through

the states of waking, dream and deep sleep.

 

But again we do not directly experience this consciousness-in-itself.

All we know of consciousness is only through its manifestation

through the senses, mind and body. But we can inferentially prove the

existence of consciousness as a thing apart from the senses, mind and

body – because if consciousness belonged to the body, mind or senses

and didn't exist apart from them in itself, then there cannot be

cases like paralysis or loss of the function of the senses or coma

where even though the physical organ – sense organs, body and brain –

is present, still they are unable to perform their functions. Thus

the existence of consciousness in itself is only proved through

inferential reasoning and not experience.

 

Of the three states, any effort towards salvation is only possible

during the waking state for in both the dream and deep sleep we do

not have full control of our psycho/physical faculties. But nobody

can do anything with the body or senses alone. As conscious beings

(here consciousness means mind-consciousness) the mind forms a major

component of our being. So any meaningful search for our true

identity necessarily involves the mind/brain.

 

The consciousness-in-itself is an essential part of our identity.

Since we seek to move away from the changing (senses, body and mind),

the unchanging consciousness-in-itself being the permanent represents

salvation. But still this unchanging entity is intricately woven into

our psycho/physical being that it is very hard to identify by itself.

 

Neti, neti is the process by which you try to separate the

consciousness-in-itself from the psycho/physical faculties. Though

you cannot know the Self using the intellect, still you can know what

it isn't – ie all the parts of our identity which are not the

consciousness-in-itself are identified and negated. But even here the

intellect can help only till the level of the mind/brain for the

consciousness-in-itself is a thing in itself apart from the

mind/brain. Liberation is not intellectually knowing reality (which

anyway is impossible as explained above), but trying to be the

consciousness-in-itself (brahmavid brahmaiva bhavati – here

the "knowing" refers to being the consciousness in itself, whose

nature is pure knowledge). Since our goal is to be the consciousness-

in-itself, the final utility of the intellect would only be to

realize its own limitations and then subside (chitta vritti nirodah)

so that that which is left – the consciousness-in-itself – can abide

in itself.

 

So the neutralization of the mind forms an essential part of all

spiritual practice. This can be achieved in many ways :

1. Control of the mind using single pointed concentration as

taught by classical Yoga.

2. The classical Advaita path of neti, neti or the subject

verses the object approach where the ego after negating all that's

not itself tries to reduce itself to its utmost bareness. The point

to note in this approach is that such a path is not absolute because

the Ego even in its barest form is still a compound of the mind and

consciousness and "knowing" in this stage would still mean the use of

the intellect which revels in the duality of the subject and object.

Though this process is highly effective what needs to be understood

is that such a process cannot by itself lead to consciousness abiding

in itself ie one cannot say that "I will remain as the non-dual

consciousness after negating everything that is not me" - because as

long as the "I" exists the mind will still exist in its barest form

and you'll still be a compounded entity and not the thing-in-itself.

At this stage for non-dual consciousness to abide in itself all

knowing itself (the mind) should be abandoned – that's what Shankara

means by the "merging the mind with reality" and that in the final

moment liberation is only possible by divine grace ie self-effort by

itself cannot fetch liberation.

3. Using the intellect to understand its own relativity and

weaken its position in our psycho/physical being (the negative logic

of the Maadhyamika and some Advaitins like Gaudapaada, Sri Harsha

etc). Both this path as well as the path of neti, neti imply self-

effort where we do the discrimination – intellectual or

psycho/physical. But as long as the ego exists, which implies that

the mind too exists there cannot be the state of consciousness-in-

itself. So in both these paths abandoning of the will (letting go of

the mind) is inevitable. When the mind is abandoned consciousness

will shine by itself (svaprakaasha).

4. But is intellectual or psycho/physical discrimination as per

neti, neti necessary at all? Can't we abandon the psycho/physical

being at the start itself? That's the logic on which Bhakti operates,

where the attempt to abandon the will or the ego by which the mind

operates is made right at the initial stages itself.

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> Philosophy requires that is verifiable to the well established

>facts of Vedas.

 

Not really - philosophy in the strictest sense is based only upon

experience and reason.

 

Vedaantic philosophy in some cases might only be reconciliation of

the truths taught in the upanishads with experience and reason - but

even here these theories have to be able to stand on their own

without support from the Vedas, based only on reason and experience.

That's the reason that in the Vaitathya Praakarna of his Kaarikaas,

Gaudapaada endeavours to establish Advaita on the base of pure reason.

 

Gaudapaada's "only that which is taught by the Vedas and affirmed by

reason can be the truth and nothing else" can be understood in this

way :

 

If I used negative logic to condemn the world as unreal and they say

nihilism is the truth (even as a brilliant Chaaravaaka called

Jayaraashi Bhatta does in his work called Tattvopaplavasimha), then

it is not supported by the shruti which teaches a reality underlying

the unreal. But after the use of negative logic, if I used the three

states and establish the existence of the Atman as proved in deep

sleep, then it is supported by reason as well as the shruti. But even

here reasoning stands on its own.

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