Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 Hari Om !! I posted the following message in advaita-L, and got only one response. So, Unable to gather sufficient responses and resolve my doubts, I wanted to post the same message in this list. I earnestly seek the clarifications from all of you. I have some other doubts which have bearing on these fundamental definitions. I will present after I hear some initial responses. Message along with that one reply ( you can identify the original question and reply by single and double arrows) follows: > > Hari Om !! > > > > I have been reading various vedanta books for > some time. This has been > > generating a lot of confusion with regard to the > terminology used there in. > > I request your help to clarify my doubts. > > > > Let me preface my comments by saying that what I > should write should not > necessarily be seen as the final word on the > meanings but a base for > further study and contemplation. > > > 1. I read the following sentence in "Vedanta for > Beginners" by Swami > > Sivananda: > > > > "The word 'Atman' is used with reference to the > soul in the individual. > > The term 'Brahman' is used with reference to the > same Soul as the Soul of > > all beings and objects in the universe." > > > > (some other books of other authors I see > that Brahman and Atman are > > used as substitutes to each other.) > > > > a) What is the correct usage ? > > I think the quote above is fairly good. It > emphasises that the difference > between Brahman and Atman is not a difference of > quality but perspective. > > > b) What is the 'Soul in the individual' and 'Soul > of all beings' ? > > See above. Per Advaita Vedanta they are the same > thing viewed from > different angles. Atma which is often translated as > soul literally means > self. It is ones personhood. > > My daughter from her birth has a very strong > gripping reflex and she also > has long hair. Sometimes she will pull her own hair > until she starts > crying. She hasn't yet made the connection that it > is her own hand which > is causing the pain by gripping the hair and she can > stop it by letting > go. In the same way because of avidya (ignorance) > we see our > self-identity as being a distinct thing and say "I" > and "myself" when > really it isn't. > > > > c) what are the equivalent english words for > 'Jiva' and 'Isvara' ? > > Jiva is a living thing. An Atma embodied in a > physical form. Ishvara > comes from the root Ish -- to rule or control. It > is Brahman as viewed as > possessing qualities (saguna) as the (apparent) > creator, maintainer and > destroyer of the universe. God is an apt > translation. > > > d) I assume 'Self' is the english equivalent for > 'Atman'. Then what do the > > words 'Individual Self' and 'Supreme Self' > represent ? > > See above. > > > e) What are the equivalents of 'Jivatman' and > 'Paramatman' ? > > 'Individual self' and 'supreme self' are the usual > translations. > > > f) Are 'Atman' and 'Jivatman' same ? > > Yes. Atman and Paramatman are also the same. > > > g) Are 'Jiva' and 'Jivatman' same ? > > Atman is not always embodied. During reincarnation > for instance the atman > may have feelings of distinctness but not yet be in > a material form. > > > h) What is the correct usage for 'Isvara' and > 'Brahman' ? > > > > Brahman is neuter gender in Sanskrit and is often > used to mean God in a > more abstract sense. While Ishwar is God in a more > personal sense. > Brahman is ultimately without qualities (nirguna) as > per Advaita Vedanta > but can be conceived of as saguna. > > > 2. I understand that Antahkarana Chatusthaya means > 'Manas, budhi, Ahamkara, > > Chitta'. These four are different functions of the > same "MIND" > > (collectively called). So, we can say Manas is > Antahkarana; similarly Budhi > > is Antahkarana; similarly Ahamkara is Antahkarana; > similarly Chitta is > > Antahkarana (based on the explanation of Swami > Chandrasekhara Bharathi's > > explanation in Vivekachudamani). > > > > I believe Ahamkara is translated as EGO, or > I-Sense. > > > > Yes. Ahamkara is literally "I"-ness. > > > Based on the above I infer that "EGO" is the > nature of MIND which is a > > manifestation of Avidya. > > > > Due to avidya, the mind develops false conclusions > based on invalid > perceptions and premises. > > > Now coming to my understanding of "Jiva", it is > the same Atman with the > > adjunct of Mind, and because of Superimposition > with the Mental sheeth, it > > acquires "EGO" > > > > Yes but again bear in mind one does not have to be > embodied to have ego. > > > I see in most of the books of Swami Chinmayananda, > the terms 'EGO' > > and 'JIVA' being used as one and the same. > > > > While ultimately true, it is rather sloppy usage. > > > a) Is 'Jiva' different from 'Ego' or not ? > > Yes it is. > > b) I understand 'Apavada' meaning removal of > superimposition is the process > > of realization. In that context where is "EGO" > playing a role ? > > Suppression of ahamkara is a necessary step to lift > the veil of maya. > > > c) What is the root cause of this 'EGO', and what > is its nature ? Why is > > such a sense existing in the MIND/Maya ? What are > the prescriptions of > > Bhagavan Sankara? > > Ahamkar is caused by a false understanding of the > facts of reality. What > is unreal is viewed as real. To break free, the > unreal must be shunned > which is why Advaita Vedanta teaches Sannyasa as a > necessary component of > sadhana. > > > d) When I analyze of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's > 'Who Am I' enquiry, it does > > not seem to be concerned about 'Ego'; where as > Swami Chinmayananda's books > > seem to hammer saying reduce/nullify 'Ego'. Can > these two paths mean the > > same ? In the second situation as we see 'Jiva' > and 'Ego' being used as > > equivalents, it poses an understanding problem to > me: How can we > > eliminate 'Jiva' who is 'Atman' Himself ? based on > "Jivo Brahmaiva > > naaparaha" > > > > Suppression of ego by itself is not enough. A > sleeping person, or a baby > or a hypnotized person have all suppressed their > egos but they cannot be > said to be liberated. One must understand the true > nature of ones self. > So there is no question of eliminating the jiva. > The Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 Namaste: An Excellent Reference for the Terminology of Advaita Vedanta: A Dictionary of Advaita Vedanta, by Swami Harshananda, Ramakrishna Math, Bangalore, India. This is an excellent reference book for everyone interested in Advaita. This is available through Ramakrishna Mission Publications. Almost all words used in books and other literature are explained in the above source. We should also remember that it is impossible to develop a set of notations and words that can free us from our doubts. The meaning of the term strongly correspond to the context and our doubts arise because the authors write on the basis of their perception. There is always a gap between the author's and reader's perception of the subject matter of discussion. In this list, we have seen this happening many times and no list is free from this problem! Questioning is a useful tool for the clarification of our doubts: (1) When we try to pose a question, we think and to a greater extent, it removes part of our doubts. (2) When the author (or other scholars of the list) adds additional clarifications, some doubts get removed. (3) After several exchanges, we do recognize the complexity of the terms and the contexts and try to look for other means of getting clarity. Finally, we should remind ourselves that Advaita can't be understood using Dictionaries, books and mailing lists. We certainly need a knowlegeable teacher who is willing to take time to clarify our doutbs. Our doubts will never clear until we develop full faith in the teacher's scholarship and ability. I recommend Swami Harshananda's Dicitionary as a good starting point for getting clarifications for advaita terminology. Another good reference is Swami Dayananda Sarsawati's Homestudy Notes on Bhagavad Gita. These notes are available at Arsha Vidya Gurukulam (over 2000 pages) where Swamiji explains everything that we need to know on Advaitic terms. Warmest regards, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote: > Namaste: > > Another good > reference is Swami Dayananda Sarsawati's Homestudy Notes on Bhagavad > Gita. These notes are available at Arsha Vidya Gurukulam (over 2000 > pages) where Swamiji explains everything that we need to know on > Advaitic terms. > Namaste! Is a CD available? A hard copy is too voluminous to be ordered to the place of my current residence due to several reasons I cannot cite here. I already have these notes upto the 4th chapter and that itself is about two 3" box files! Lucidly written in Swamiji's inimitable style, they are sharp and to the point to say the least. Thanks. M.R. NAIR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2002 Report Share Posted January 28, 2002 yes, CD on Swami Dayanand ji's "Home Study Course on Gita" is now available. You can order it online. Visit : www.arshavidya.org advaitin wrote: advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote: > Namaste: > > Another good > reference is Swami Dayananda Sarsawati's Homestudy Notes on Bhagavad > Gita. These notes are available at Arsha Vidya Gurukulam (over 2000 > pages) where Swamiji explains everything that we need to know on > Advaitic terms. > Namaste! Is a CD available? A hard copy is too voluminous to be ordered to the place of my current residence due to several reasons I cannot cite here. I already have these notes upto the 4th chapter and that itself is about two 3" box files! Lucidly written in Swamiji's inimitable style, they are sharp and to the point to say the least. Thanks. M.R. NAIR Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com Buy Music, Video, CD-ROM, Audio-Books and Music Accessories from http://www.planetm.co.in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2002 Report Share Posted January 28, 2002 Namaste Nairji I believe a CD is not available. Please take a look at Arsha Vidya Publications at this site: http://books.arshavidya.org/ or you may buy them directly from the Coimbatore Gurukulam. Regards. > > madathilnair [sMTP:madathilnair] > Monday, January 28, 2002 12:48 PM > advaitin > Re: Advaita terminology > > advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote: > > Namaste: > > > > Another good > > reference is Swami Dayananda Sarsawati's Homestudy Notes on > Bhagavad > > Gita. These notes are available at Arsha Vidya Gurukulam (over 2000 > > pages) where Swamiji explains everything that we need to know on > > Advaitic terms. > > > Namaste! > > Is a CD available? A hard copy is too voluminous to be ordered to > the place of my current residence due to several reasons I cannot > cite here. I already have these notes upto the 4th chapter and that > itself is about two 3" box files! Lucidly written in Swamiji's > inimitable style, they are sharp and to the point to say the least. > > Thanks. > > M.R. NAIR > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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