Free Will

[Guest guest]

So here I am, for better or worse, a seeker.

I begin to contemplate a path. I see myself on that path.

I have a goal (Enlightenment, God, whatever).

 

I feel "Yes, now I have something IMPORTANT to do!"

 

After dissatifaction with the normal day to day stuff reached

critical mass, I was able to prevent myself from dropping into

the dark pit by feeling "Yes, I am on a GOLDEN path, the

path to GLORY!".

 

"I have a purpose, a function, a goal to strive for" (although

I am not entirely sure what that goal is - but whatever it is,

it is the BEST).

 

And then there is advaita. This states that, not only is there

no goal, there is no path, no-one walking on the path, and

nowhere to go anyway.

 

Hmmm. So, according to that, there is no great path, and,

in fact, whether or not I even bother to get out of bed in the

morning doesn't matter. I don't even have any choice in the

matter anyway.

 

And when advaita teachers say "You should do this" or "You should

do that", it doesn't mean anything anyway, because whether or

not the advice is taken depends entirely on chance.

 

If I go to bed now, or in an hour, is entirely unpredictable.

I may feel that I will go in an hour, but, as there is no 'I',

that occurence is essentialy down to pure chance.

 

And Hitler should not be condemned, because there was no

Hitler and God/Consciousness randomly produced phenomena

containing 6 million deaths.

 

Really?

 

===========

orbitsville

[Guest guest]

You know, orbitsville, I find it fascinating when someone, like you, asks the

same questions that I ask. Questions that come from the moment to moment

concerns of one's life, and not just from a striving to be devout.

 

And to tell you the truth, I have in fact had glimpses of the viewpoint from

which all those questions are answered. But glimpses only. As you may well have

done also.

 

But if you are on a small craft in a rough sea and a lightning flash reveals

that the harbour is there, then you tend to keep your hand on the tiller and

accept the wind and the cold.

 

The thing is that the questions you ask cannot be answered from the relative

viewpoint. And there are other questions that you haven't asked that also cry

out, questions about death and pain and unfulfilled desire. And I don't think

that the teachings of Advaita are intended to answer the "problems" of life seen

from a relative viewpoint; I think they are intended to bring an about turn of

viewpoint so that the questions are seen not to be so urgent as we normally

think.

I am told that the glimpses tend to consolidate, that it really does happen that

one "abides in truth". From where I stand, I don't think there is much point in

attempting to find answers from a point of view which is inherently incapable of

understanding the answers. And since I still consider myself to be able to "do"

things, although I have it on good authority that I can't, I devote myself to

the enquiry into what "I" really is. And try to be patient.

 

Good luck, dear friend

 

Warwick

 

 

-

orbitsville

advaitin

Saturday, February 09, 2002 11:57 AM

Free Will

 

 

So here I am, for better or worse, a seeker.

I begin to contemplate a path. I see myself on that path.

I have a goal (Enlightenment, God, whatever).

 

I feel "Yes, now I have something IMPORTANT to do!"

 

After dissatifaction with the normal day to day stuff reached

critical mass, I was able to prevent myself from dropping into

the dark pit by feeling "Yes, I am on a GOLDEN path, the

path to GLORY!".

 

"I have a purpose, a function, a goal to strive for" (although

I am not entirely sure what that goal is - but whatever it is,

it is the BEST).

 

And then there is advaita. This states that, not only is there

no goal, there is no path, no-one walking on the path, and

nowhere to go anyway.

 

Hmmm. So, according to that, there is no great path, and,

in fact, whether or not I even bother to get out of bed in the

morning doesn't matter. I don't even have any choice in the

matter anyway.

 

And when advaita teachers say "You should do this" or "You should

do that", it doesn't mean anything anyway, because whether or

not the advice is taken depends entirely on chance.

 

If I go to bed now, or in an hour, is entirely unpredictable.

I may feel that I will go in an hour, but, as there is no 'I',

that occurence is essentialy down to pure chance.

 

And Hitler should not be condemned, because there was no

Hitler and God/Consciousness randomly produced phenomena

containing 6 million deaths.

 

Really?

 

===========

orbitsville

 

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

it has just occurred to me that the story of my own life has been the story of

the 20th century.

 

Firstly there was an attempt to find an answer to the "problems of the world".

And I thought that socialism/communism was the answer. But we all know what a

great flop that was.

 

Then there was an attempt to solve the "problems of the psyche".

And I thought that psychology/psychotherapy (and for a brief moment, LSD) were

the answer. But we all know what a great flop that was and is.

 

Which brings us to the question, "Who, or what, is "I" ."

 

Well, even rats in a maze are allowed to go up quite a few dead ends before they

find the way out.

 

Namaste.

 

Warwick

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hari Om !!

 

It is good that you are asking these questions boldly.

 

It is My/Your birth right to be happy; to BE. Having become restless

by this confusion of priorities, and not knowing how to get out of

this confusion itself, then tending to doubt the purpose of existance

itself, and even when told that the purpose of our existance is to

know our own TRUE nature which is HAPPINESS itself which is

unconditioned, unable to accept and live as suggested because of

attractions of the world, continuing to live the old way and re-visit

the vistas of solutions of the world and body problems again and

again, can never get out of the cycle of misery interspersed by

little joys.

 

I believe that when this frustration takes a constructive direction,

under the guidance of those who are HAPPINESS, we can also adopt such

LIFE of HAPPINESS.

 

Non-Duality is one of the ways. As it proposes the highest, that we

as individuals can achieve, that is to know that our nature is

essentially that of the GODS. All the Sadhana is to reach that

perfection and experience that Status of oneness with the essence of

the Universe.

 

I personally, feel that you should continue your quest without

givingup hope, for there is nothingelse to strive for. I do the same.

But essentially we should modify our life style. It is not the goal

to know Non-duality but BE Non-Dual. Obviously there are several book

resources to know what that Non-Dual living is. The hand-book

reference can be a LIVING MASTER.

 

---------

>

> The thing is that the questions you ask cannot be answered from the

relative viewpoint. And there are other questions that you haven't

asked that also cry out, questions about death and pain and

unfulfilled desire. And I don't think that the teachings of Advaita

are intended to answer the "problems" of life seen from a relative

viewpoint; I think they are intended to bring an about turn of

viewpoint so that the questions are seen not to be so urgent as we

normally think.

-------------

Ofcourse, the Advaitic teachings are to remove misery which is in

the "Relative" Plane. So, all doubts will be answered from relative

view point only. But, the answers point us to the Non-relative plane

of homogenity with which we need to identify ourselves.

 

----

> I am told that the glimpses tend to consolidate, that it really

does happen that one "abides in truth". From where I stand, I don't

think there is much point in attempting to find answers from a point

of view which is inherently incapable of understanding the answers.

And since I still consider myself to be able to "do" things, although

I have it on good authority that I can't, I devote myself to the

enquiry into what "I" really is. And try to be patient.

----------

 

Ofcourse, you are right no amount of intellectual understandig

remaining on this relative plane will remove misery. So, the enquiry

into the nature of "I" has been advocated, so we find that we are

TRULY Happiness itself, and this misery is superimposed on us as a

thought wave of the mind.

 

> And then there is advaita. This states that, not only is there

> no goal, there is no path, no-one walking on the path, and

> nowhere to go anyway.

>

 

Here you have mis-understood. Advaita does not state that there is no

goal. It states that "Knowing your oneness with the Supreme

consciusness substratum is your SOLE goal"

 

> Hmmm. So, according to that, there is no great path, and,

> in fact, whether or not I even bother to get out of bed in the

> morning doesn't matter. I don't even have any choice in the

> matter anyway.

>

 

Don't be confused. There is a goal and there are paths. Obviously

I/you need to wakeup from bed and realise that we are Pure

Consciousness.

> And when advaita teachers say "You should do this" or "You should

> do that", it doesn't mean anything anyway, because whether or

> not the advice is taken depends entirely on chance.

>

 

Knowing that our true nature is HAPPINESS is not based on chance.

Contrary to this Advaita ralisation is possible for one who desires

intensely and endeavors for it.

 

Whether the advice is taken or not does not depend on chance. It is

your FREE WILL.

> If I go to bed now, or in an hour, is entirely unpredictable.

> I may feel that I will go in an hour, but, as there is no 'I',

> that occurence is essentialy down to pure chance.

>

 

You are just confusing yourself. Just because you believe that you

are as "I", you are discussing so much about "ACTIONS". Sleep etc.

are actions of the Body, mind. Consciousness has no "SLEEP". When you

essentially believe and BECOME Consciousness, then there is no

discussion anyway.

> And Hitler should not be condemned, because there was no

> Hitler and God/Consciousness randomly produced phenomena

> containing 6 million deaths.

>

 

Let us not link the empirical effects to the transcendental. Based on

which ever plane we are, we should continue the comparitives in that

plane.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya !!

 

Srikrishna

[Guest guest]

Srikrishnaji,

 

thank you for your message. It vibrates with happiness and sincerity. And there

are points of view there which I find fascinating and stimulating.

 

Very warm regards

Warwick

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

orbitsville [orbitsville]

Friday, February 08, 2002 7:57 PM

advaitin

Free Will

 

 

So here I am, for better or worse, a seeker.

I begin to contemplate a path. I see myself on that path.

I have a goal (Enlightenment, God, whatever).

 

I feel "Yes, now I have something IMPORTANT to do!"

 

After dissatifaction with the normal day to day stuff reached

critical mass, I was able to prevent myself from dropping into

the dark pit by feeling "Yes, I am on a GOLDEN path, the

path to GLORY!".

 

"I have a purpose, a function, a goal to strive for" (although

I am not entirely sure what that goal is - but whatever it is,

it is the BEST).

 

And then there is advaita. This states that, not only is there

no goal, there is no path, no-one walking on the path, and

nowhere to go anyway.

 

Hmmm. So, according to that, there is no great path, and,

in fact, whether or not I even bother to get out of bed in the

morning doesn't matter. I don't even have any choice in the

matter anyway.

 

And when advaita teachers say "You should do this" or "You should

do that", it doesn't mean anything anyway, because whether or

not the advice is taken depends entirely on chance.

 

If I go to bed now, or in an hour, is entirely unpredictable.

I may feel that I will go in an hour, but, as there is no 'I',

that occurence is essentialy down to pure chance.

 

And Hitler should not be condemned, because there was no

Hitler and God/Consciousness randomly produced phenomena

containing 6 million deaths.

 

Really?

 

===========

orbitsville

 

The 'realization' that everything is preordained and predestined should not

prevent you from 'acting' out your role. As long as you consider yourself as

distinct, you have to perform in the best way as you see fit depending on

you wisdom, knowledge, inclinations. The fact that you feel the meaningless

of existence was also predestined. In such a situation, I see no point in

adopting a pessimistic outlook because of the confusion. I realize that I am

not completely 'realized', and so until then, I have to perform the role

assigned to me. I belong to the IT profession and so this metaphor comes

naturally to me: I am a process created and spawned by the operating system.

I must perform my duties, and when they are done, my execution will end and

processing control will gracefully transfer from me back to the operating

system.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The universe pretending to be Tushar Mahapatra wrote ...

> ... I realize that I am

> not completely 'realized', and so until then, I have to perform the

role

> assigned to me. I belong to the IT profession and so this metaphor

comes

> naturally to me: I am a process created and spawned by the

operating system.

> I must perform my duties, and when they are done, my execution will

end and

> processing control will gracefully transfer from me back to the

operating

> system.

 

Yes, that is a good metaphor, thank you. It is one I have considered

myself before (I am a computer programmer). I am also a Star Trek

fan, and have thought the same applies to the holodeck. The

characters generated by the computer appear to be independent, but

of course they aren't. In a sense, each of the characters IS the

computer, although they may not know it. And what would happen if

Captain Picard found himself unable to leave the holodeck?

What if he discovered he was being generated by it, and had no

independent existence?

 

I don't know if you have seen the Sherlock Holmes holodeck episode,

but in that, the Prof. Moriarty character develops 'self awareness'

and realises what and where he is. But he also considers himself

independent, distinct, and self-controlling.

 

I suppose that we are like Moriarty.

 

===========

orbitsville