Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 Dear friends, Two important facets of spirituality is Love and Compassion. We should have selfless love towards every being. How could one love God, when one cannot love his brother? Another dimension to this is to have compassion towards the suffering and to serve them. We should try alleviate the sufferings of the suffering. My question is: How does the Bhagavad Gita inspire us to do the above? Also, since this is the advaitin list, how does the advaitin philosophy encourage "Love all, serve all"? Does the advaitin care not for his fellow beings and their sufferings? -- Warmest regards, Ruben V. M. rubenn _____________ Bend the body, mend the senses and end the mind - this is the way to Immortality. -Sathya Sai Baba. Multifaith forum with inter-religious dialogues: studycircle/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 Dear Ruben, First of all, let us get it clear - there is no such thing called selfless love. Advaita accepts facts and does not beat around the bush. There is only one thing that I love. Me. There is only one thing that you love. You. The other attachments are conditional and in all of them, on ultimate analysis, some selfish interest will be found. Advaita does not ask me to treat everyone like me or like my neighbour. It reveals to me with the best of logic that everything, cockroach to terrorist, including the Lord, is just me. When I realize that everything is me, then I am in love with everything just spontaneously, because I love myself. It is a spontaneous outpouring which is akin to ecstasy. There is then no need for any "inspiration" or "encouragement" to come from outside. You probably asked this question because you don't find advaitins moving about the globe spreading the "message of love". That is a job for mostly proselytizers! Isn't it? I can answer your doubts but would not like to do it here. I would rather expect you to study advaita, then contemplate on this point. The answer, I am sure, will be yours in the most convincing manner and you will have done it without ever changing your current affiliations, whatever they are like! Please read the verses in Bhagwat Geetha that deal with values and that describe a jnananishta to see for yourself the importance attached to spontaneous love and kindness. I don't have a copy right now with me to quote the stanza numbers. Best regards. Madathil Nair _______ Ruben <rubenn wrote: My question is: How does the Bhagavad Gita inspire us to do the above? Also, since this is the advaitin list, how does the advaitin philosophy encourage "Love all, serve all"? Does the advaitin care not for his fellow beings and their sufferings? Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 Madathil Nair wrote: > would not like to do it here. I would rather expect > you to study advaita, then contemplate on this point. > The answer, I am sure, will be yours in the most > convincing manner and you will have done it without > ever changing your current affiliations, whatever they > are like! Actually, I was always Hindu, have read the Bhagavad Gita and am inclined towards advaita (with Bhakti of course). So, helpfulness and charity is Sattvic. I find compassion for all creatures to be a divine quality (BG 16.02), also charity (16.01) which (indirectly?) leads to Liberation but not an end in itself. Unconditional charity found to be Sattvic in 17.20. However, interestingly, those who worship the unmanifest Brahman (in BG 12.03-04 - the Buddhists and Taoists?) appear to have to be engaged in the welfare of all creatures (12.04). That is similar to what Buddhists do. Thank you for your answer. It is just that I find the excuse that everyone should reap the fruits of their karma is not good enough an excuse to leave a suffering person to suffer without anyone being bothered in the least about them. Perhaps, this is just a Sattvic thought and nothing more important than that. -- Warmest regards, Ruben V. M. rubenn _____________ Spirituality is an activity. It is an activity of the Divinity within. -Sathya Sai Baba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 Hi Ruben! Thanks for your understanding. Still, I would like to do without unnecessary terminology (like bhakthi, sattvic, brahman etc. etc.) wherever possible in order to avoid confusion and misinterpretation. Please permit me to point out the following: Bhakthi is not apart from the knowledge that I am everything. As this knowledge results in spontaneous love, bhakthi cannot be apart from love too. So, advaita is not advaita without bhakthi and love, which are in fact the same thing - let us say, the two faces of the same coin. An advaitin knows that binding action (karma) leads to bondage and suffering. But, I don't think he sits quite when the other guy is suffering. His hand spontaneously extends to wipe the tears of those around him. And, above all, he imparts that knowledge that leads to liberation from suffering - nay the mistaken sense of suffering. What better service can one expect in this world, dear Ruben? Thanks for providing me this opportunity to express. Best regards. M.R. NAIR ________ Ruben wrote: I am inclined towards advaita (with Bhakti of course). It is just that I find the excuse that everyone should reap the fruits of their karma is not good enough an excuse to leave a suffering person to suffer without anyone being bothered in the least about them. Perhaps, this is just a Sattvic thought and nothing more important than that. Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 Namaste Rubenji: Thanks for raising the question regarding love and compassion. These questions are quite fundamental in almost all religions that sincerely seek the truth. In Bhagavad Gita, the understanding of love and compassion become possible by cultivating the "Yagna Spirit" and/or the "PrasadaBuddhi." This is achieved by deeds and not by words and consequently, discipline, devotion and determination become the key ingredients. To be a Karma, Bhakti or Jnana Yogi, the person should love everbeing irrespective of their intellectual and physical shape and capacity. The Yogi just acts without giving any importance to the consequences of such actions (rewards and/or punishments). Such a yogi could be a heart surgeon or a soldier in the field of war. They both conduct their duties with the fullest devotion to their 'duty' without any fear on the outcome. The surgeon's compassionate action may appear as initial pain to the patient but the patient gladly accepts the temporary pain for permanant cure. One of the lessons of Gita is to make us aware that "Pain is inevitable, but suffering is always avoidable." Proper understanding of Gita definitely make us a better person in the society. Our discriminating intelligence gets sharper to undertake the action that will have beneficial effects on everyone around us. The well known nuclear scientist, Oppenheimer is a great scholar of Sanskrit and Bhagavad Gita. The following paragraph may explain his love and compassion after the successful test of first A-bomb. The first nuclear explosion in history took place in New Mexico, at the Alamogordo Test Range, on the Jornada del Muerto (Journey of Death) desert. The name of the test was Trinity and is commonly thought that Robert Oppenheimer provided the name, which would seem logical because he was the head of the Nuclear Weapon Project. A leading theory is that Oppenheimer did select it, and that he did so with reference to the divine Hindu trinity of Brahma (the Creator), Vishnu (the Preserver), and Shiva (the Destroyer). Oppenheimer had an avid interest in Sanskrit literature (which he had taught himself to read), and following the Trinity test is reported to have recited the passage from the Bhagavad-Gita immediately after the Trinity test during July 1945. The famous quote by Oppenheimer comes from Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11: "If the radiance of a thousand suns Were to burst at once into the sky, That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One...I am become Death, The destroyer of Worlds" to describe his emotions as he watched the rising fire ball of the first above-ground nuclear explosion. Oppenheimer was widely quoted as the moral conscience of those who had worked on the project. He often made the point that "the physicists have known sin, and this is a knowledge which they cannot lose." When one of the reporters asked him to name his most favorite book, his answer obviously was, Bhagavad Gita. (Website with information on Trinity: http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Usa/Tests/Trinity.html) The bottom line of Gita's message is that the best way to express our love and compassion is to act with the 'yagna spirit.' To get the full understanding of love and compassion from the Gita perspective to conduct a thorough enquiry and discussion on the following question: "Why did the Lord advice Arjuna to fight the war with the attitude - the destruction of the entire army of the opposition it is the most compassionate act under the given circumstances." warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "Ruben" <rubenn@p...> wrote: > Dear friends, > > Two important facets of spirituality is Love and Compassion. > > We should have selfless love towards every being. How could one love God, when > one cannot love his brother? > > Another dimension to this is to have compassion towards the suffering and to > serve them. We should try alleviate the sufferings of the suffering. > > My question is: > > How does the Bhagavad Gita inspire us to do the above? > > Also, since this is the advaitin list, how does the advaitin philosophy encourage "Love > all, serve all"? Does the advaitin care not for his fellow beings and their sufferings? > > > -- > Warmest regards, > Ruben V. M. > rubenn@p... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 > > > > Also, since this is the advaitin list, how does > the advaitin > philosophy encourage "Love > > all, serve all"? Does the advaitin care not for > his fellow beings > and their sufferings? > > > > Namaste Ruben ji, If you look over the Training of Swami Vivekananda by Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, there is an epsiode wherein Sri Ramakrishna gives a discourse on Vaishnavism and service to humanity. At one time, Sri Ramakrishna says, one should show compassion to all living beings and serve them. Instantly, Sri Ramakrishna goes into Samadhi. When he comes back to worldly consciouness, he is heard muttering, "Compassion, lowly worm crawling on the ground, Who are you to show compassion? No! It cannot be compassion, but Worship. You worship the divinity in all beings by serving them." All this while, Narendra (Swami Vivekananda) was hearing this strange discourse. He had that very same question you had asked in His mind. How to reconcile the ideal of service to mankind with the non-dualism of Vedanta? He found the answer in Sri Ramskrishna's blast. You serve all beings seeing Brahman in them. That is practical vedanta. This episode transformed Narendra's life and He preached the ideal of service to Humanity throughout His life but at the same time kept the focus on Advaita. Regards, Anand Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 About love and compassion. I don't know how it is in India, but in the West there is a great suspicion of "love and compassion" seen as a duty or as a noble goal to be aspired to. This kind of "love and compassion" is often considered, and quite rightly in my view, to be phoney. Now, if love and compassion arise spontaneously that is altogether different. But if they don't arise spontaneously, if the reality is fear and anger and "love and compassion" are smeared over the top of this reality, the result is totally insincere and repulsively ugly. Something like a Doris Day smile. There is something absurd about a seeker after truth pretending to be loving and compassionate when the fact is that his reality is very different. And there is something especially absurd when someone who is interested in Advaita does it. I would have thought that the first step for any truth seeker is to find out and accept whatever is the case right now. People who glorify "love and compassion" think that they know better than God, they think that God made a mistake when She invented anger and hatred. What is usually called "love and compassion" is nothing more than one part of the movement of emotions between attraction and repulsion. Trying to have this sort of "love and compassion" is like trying to be on a swing that only goes up and never goes down. Nor is it possible to get off the swing. But it is possible to see, even if only as a glimpse, that who you are was never on the swing, (and I say this on my own authority, I am not simply repeating something I've read in a book). If, after this has been seen, some changes happen in the realm of swings and "persons" who might or might not be on them, that is Her doing. Trying to cultivate saintliness is both futile and ugly. The end result is what we call in the West a plaster saint. Or, if the individual involved also has a drinking problem, a plastered saint. Cheers Warwick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 Hari Om !! advaitin, "Warwick Wakefield" <nomistake@o...> wrote: > About love and compassion. > > I don't know how it is in India, but in the West there is a great suspicion of "love and compassion" seen as a duty or as a noble goal to be aspired to. > This kind of "love and compassion" is often considered, and quite rightly in my view, to be phoney. Now, if love and compassion arise spontaneously that is altogether different. But if they don't arise spontaneously, if the reality is fear and anger and "love and compassion" are smeared over the top of this reality, the result is totally insincere and repulsively ugly. Something like a Doris Day smile. > > Trying to cultivate saintliness is both futile and ugly. The end result is what we call in the West a plaster saint. Or, if the individual involved also has a drinking problem, a plastered saint. > > Cheers > Warwick > Is there one thing in human nature which is truly natural beyond the urge to be Full and Happy ? Is it not wise and prudent to make an effort to cultivate saintliness ? Are those people not better than those who do not make even that effort ? Try and act in a drama as a King and see how at the end of several rehearsals, your own traits get changed. Practice changes people my friend. It is a blessing in disguise. Once people start calling you, Revered Swami Warwick Ji, see how your whole attitude will change, and how the transformation takes pleace. Do I sound reasonable ? Om Namo Narayanaya !! Srikrishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 Sri Krishnaji, Dear friend thank you for your reply; it contains a definite flavour of sweetness. But we disagree profoundly, and I think that, in this case, it is best to recognise our difference and agree to disagree without any rancour. May the Lord hold you in the palm of Her hand. Warwick Hari Om !! Is there one thing in human nature which is truly natural beyond the urge to be Full and Happy ? Is it not wise and prudent to make an effort to cultivate saintliness ? Are those people not better than those who do not make even that effort ? Try and act in a drama as a King and see how at the end of several rehearsals, your own traits get changed. Practice changes people my friend. It is a blessing in disguise. Once people start calling you, Revered Swami Warwick Ji, see how your whole attitude will change, and how the transformation takes pleace. Do I sound reasonable ? Om Namo Narayanaya !! Srikrishna Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 namaste. The following comments based on my understanding. As long as the jIvA feeling is there, we take action to derive happiness. That is, we are still bound to that seeking of happiness as long as I-am-the-jIvA feeling persists. Let us amalyze the jIvA's response to the following event, the event being: the jIvA sees another human suffering. I like to discuss the jIvA's response to this event in terms of the jIvA's spiritual progress. During the spiritual evolution of the jIvA, there are many stages. At various stages, different responses come through. The very early stage is when the jIvA is burdened by the ariShaDvarga (kAma, krodha, lobha, moha, mada, mAtsarya) and the first reaction of this-stage-jIvA to this event is "what can I gain out of this?" As the jIvA progresses in the spiritual journey, he/she becomes more sAttvic and wants to improve his/her compassionate nature and tone down the evil nature. The ego is still present. The jIvA sees the event (of the fellow human suffering) and sees an opportunity to improve his compassion. So, he/she consciously helps the other person, with the ego still present and calculating the pluses and minuses of this conscious helping of the other person. As the jIvA further progresses on the spiritual path, the ego's hold on the jIvA becomes weaker and weaker. The jIvA's natural reaction is much more sAttvic. In this spiritual mold, the event will trigger a different type of response from the jIvA. The jIvA, automatically and naturally (without any conscious or deliberate attempt) goes to help the suffering person and there is no deliberations of the positives and negative accruals to the jIvA. This will be a spontaneous rather than a deliberate action. In the final stages of the jIvA's spiritual journey, when the ego's hold on the jIvA is completely gone, there is no separation between the jIvA and the other person. I would assume, in that stage, the jIvA (we are calling Him the jIvA, but He is not) does not see any pain or lack of pain, does not see any happiness or sadness. The earlier characteristic of the jIvA, the seeking of happiness, is not there anymore. This entity sees things unfolding as they should. In that stage, there will be no reaction. What does the gItA teach in this respect? BhagavadgItA is a teaching to a not-yet-realized samsAric genuinely-interested student. It is not for a yogin who has reached the end-of-the- spiritual-journey. That is why we have verses like "karmaNyevaadhikaaraste maa phaleshhu kadaachana", which are somewhat rare in the upanishads. Yet, the beauty of the bhagavadgItA is we can still find verses which are pertinent and practical advice for any occasion. Which verse we think is an appropriate answer to the question at hand depends on our stage of spiritual evolution. Regards Gummuluru Murthy -------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2002 Report Share Posted February 22, 2002 According to advaita there is no love for others since there is no others. In transactions the love for oneself translates to the love for others. - aatmanasu kaamaaya sarvam priyam bhaviti says Br. Up. - one loves others for ones own sake - love for oneself manifests as love for others. Wife loves her husband since she loves herself - her love for her husband is only translation of her love for herself to be happy -Husband love wife only because he loves himself - No one loves others or other object for others sake but only for ones sake. If my finger goes into my eye by-mistake, I am not going to prosecute that finger for hunting my eye. The same fingers will try to comfort the eye from the hurt - all because the 'I-ness" extend to both eye and the fingers. In the same way when I have clear understanding that everything is only mine and not different from me, the love of myself - I can not but love myself since I am ananda swaruupa - that love for myself extends all the way to 'so-called' others since since I have no clear understanding that there "I-Ness" extends all the way and there is no others - although it appears to be plurality - but that appearance is only mere appearance and not a fact. In fact true love for others and true compassion for others comes only in the true understanding of the advaitic understanding. Hari Om! Sadananda >Dear friends, > >Two important facets of spirituality is Love and Compassion. > >We should have selfless love towards every being. How could one love God, when >one cannot love his brother? > >Another dimension to this is to have compassion towards the suffering and to >serve them. We should try alleviate the sufferings of the suffering. > >My question is: > >How does the Bhagavad Gita inspire us to do the above? > >Also, since this is the advaitin list, how does the advaitin >philosophy encourage "Love >all, serve all"? Does the advaitin care not for his fellow beings >and their sufferings? > > >-- >Warmest regards, >Ruben V. M. >rubenn >_____________ >Bend the body, mend the senses and end the mind - this is the way to >Immortality. -Sathya Sai Baba. > > >Multifaith forum with inter-religious dialogues: ><studycircle/>study\ circle/ > > > > Sponsor > ><http://rd./M=217097.1884387.3381019.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705075991:\ HM/A=960173/R=0/*http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=29150849&siteid=3924\ 9818&bfpage=money4> > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of >nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: ><http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/>http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advait\ in/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: ><advaitin/messages>\ advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to the ><> -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2002 Report Share Posted February 22, 2002 --- "K. Sadananda" <sada wrote: > According to advaita there is no love for others > since there is no > others. In transactions the love for oneself > translates to the love > for others. - aatmanasu kaamaaya sarvam priyam > bhaviti says Br. Up. > - one loves others for ones own sake - love for > oneself manifests as > love for others. Namaste Sada and Others ( who are not others really but we had better not start that one again) There is a wonderful Br. Up. verse 4.3.21 which includes the following: 'As a man fully embraced by his dear wife knows nothing external or internal, even so this infinite entity fully embraced by the Supreme Self knows nothing external nor internal. That indeed is his form...in which all objects have been realised, in which they have become the self, and which is devoid of desire and beyond grief.' I was very surprised when I met this verse for the first time as it seemed to un-upanishadic as it gave me a very recognisable symbol from common experience to represent the transcendent. We may replace, I think, the last few words with love and compassion. This does not mean that love and compassion may not appear as players on the stage as you will know when embracing your baby daughter. It is just that there is that which utterly transcends such attributes. Last evening we had a Rumi study session and I offered the following to the group for discussion: 'When a man has attained to union, the go-between becomes worthless to him. Since you have reached the object of your search, O elegant one, the search for knowledge has now become evil. Since you have mounted to the roofs of heaven, it would be futile to seek a ladder. After having attained to felicity, the way that leads to felicity is worthless escept for the sake of helping and teaching others. The shining mirror, which has been cleansed and perfect, it would be a folly to apply a burnisher to it. Seated happily beside the Sultan and in favour with him, it would be disgraceful to seek letter and messenger.' Mathnavi 3. 1400-1405 It is our way to seek the lamps, the attributes of compassion etc. and such efforts are valid in their sincerity, I believe, but we tend sometimes to seek the lamps and not the light that lights all lamps. The Br.Up helps us understand and prevents us from making fixed idols out of the attributes. Om sri ram Ken Knight Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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