Guest guest Posted March 24, 2002 Report Share Posted March 24, 2002 Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, namaste, When you originally asked the question, ’Whence Adhyasas’ you did so in the context of a seeming problem that was raised by Douglas Fox’s’ assertion that the cause of Adhyasa could not be answered by three possible alternatives 1) That Brahman is the cause 2) That something independent of Brahman was the cause 3) That we ourselves are the cause. I would like to attempt an answer to your question ‘Whence Adhyasa’ by advocating the third choice, that I am the ‘cause’, in the sense that: ‘I don’t know the Self, I haven’t been able to discriminate the true nature of the Self, and due to this , I may be considered the ‘cause’ of superimposition, and to show how this in fact is Shankaras position, (as opposed to the Mula Avidya Vadins who opted for the second alternative, and by so doing in fact abandoned Non Duality) and to demonstrate that by taking such a position, it does not result in the unacceptable consequences that Fox seems to think it does. I would like to further add that this subject is not of merely academic interest, nor is it only a matter of semantics with no real practical outcomes, for the subjects of Ignorance and Misconception are the very cornerstone of Shankaras Advaita: a topic which he describes as the “anartha hetu” –the source of all evil- and that the primary purpose of all the Vedantic teaching is solely to remove this primary Misconception and nothing else. However, before beginning, I think a few preliminary comments are in order. I would like to emphasize the fact that, with regard to the contents of this post as well as all my previous posts, I make no claim to any originality in thinking at all. Everything that I put forth is either from the writings of Sri Shankaracharaya, Guadapada, and Suresvaracharya, whom I take to be the true representatives of the Advaitic Tradition’ as I understand it, as well as the voluminous writings of Swami Satchidanandendra, the works of Swami Jnanandendra (The former Vidya Guru of the Maharaja of Mysore), and extensive conversations with Swami Atmanandendra, and other direct disciples of Swami Satchidanandendra. I have made free use of these last mentioned sources either by paraphrasing their positions on various topics, or by reproducing their exact words without mentioning the specific texts and verses from which they are derived. The same will be the case in this post. Whence Adhyasa? All Indian thinkers who put forth the view that there is only one Absolute Reality have had to grapple with the question: If there is only the Absolute Reality, then how is it that the dualistic world of multiplicity makes its appearance? The answer to this question has basically been dealt with by positing some power, force, energy, ‘desire’ or primal ‘stuff’, that inheres in the very fabric of the Absolute. Thus the Shaivites postulated a ‘Shakti’ that is inseparable from Shiva, and which allows Shiva to perform his ‘dance of creation’. The Kashmiri Shavaites called it “Tuiti” (The primordial seed), or ”Iccha”(the desire of Shiva). The Dzog Chen Buddhists called it ‘Stahal’( The inexhaustible inherent energy of the Absolute). Ramanuja held that the Absolute associated with Chit(consciousness) and Achit (insentient) is the cause of the world. Vallabhas’ Shuda-Advaita held that the ‘inner power’ of the Absolute called ‘Maya’, was the cause for the world. It should be noted that all these thinkers accepted the reality of the world, and therefore it was really created, and therefore there must be a cause for it and that cause must in some way inhere in the very nature of the Absolute. This very same pathetically ‘realistic’ type of Absolutism was mimicked by the post Shankara Advaita Vedantins who, like their dualistic brethren, postulated an actually existing ‘Mula Avidya’(Root Ignorance) that inhered in the very nature of the Absolute from beginingless time so as to account for the world of duality. In addition, this ontological principle (Bhava-rupa, tri-guna atmika, vastu) was hypothesized to be not only the ‘cause for creation’ but also the ultimate cause (The Whence of Adhyasa) for all the individuals who each had their own personal misconceptions (Adhyasas) about the nature of the Absolute! That this explanation of the “Whence of Adhyasa” is false, completely opposed to reason, experience and to Shankaras radical Non-Dualism (Na sajati bedha, Na vijati bedha, Na svagati bedha) as well as what is the correct explanation, according to Shankara, for the cause of Adhyasa(superimposition) will be unfolded in what follows. In order to understand the ‘Whence of Adhyasa’, at least according to Shankaracharya, the first important issue that must be appreciated is the distinction between the “Absolute point of view”(Paramarthika Drishti) and the “Worldly or empirical point of view” (Loukika-vyavharika Dristi). From the Absolute perspective, the perspective of truth, there was never anyone who had ignorance, no one had to get any sort of knowledge to remove that ignorance, and there never was a Guru who had to teach the meaning of the Upanishads to a seeker so that he could be released from his bondage caused by that ignorance. This is the final position of Advaita Vedanta, and not that in fact a really existing Ignorance that someone actually had was at some particular point in time removed by the Shastra Pramana, and in so doing the seeker really became liberated. (It should be noted that if in fact this were the case then liberation would be an event in time, and thus it would have a beginning and would therefore necessarily have an end. It could not be eternal.) For the final realization is merely recognizing the fact that ‘I am the Absolute Reality’, and in me there never was, is, or will be any ignorance and therefore no need for the removal of that ignorance at all. (Of course, the same can be said for the concepts of Karma, Rebirth, Qualifications for the attainment of Knowledge, Creator and his creation, or that there are three states and we are passing through those states, etc. etc.).This distinction between the Absolute Reality and the ‘Empirical’ viewpoint should be unfailingly borne in mind in order to reconcile the several seeming self-contradictory statements in Shankaras’ commentaries. In the light of the above it becomes easy to understand that all talk of someone having ignorance, the cause of his ignorance (The Whence of Adhyaasa), the object of his ignorance, his need to remove that ignorance, the means by which that ignorance is removed, are all from the ‘worldly’ or empirical point of view’, the point of view of duality, in fact, the point of view of ignorance. To illustrate that this distinction of the Absolute and the Empirical viewpoints in relation to the topic of Ignorance is utilized by Shankara, the following quotes should suffice: “If it should be asked ‘And to whom does this Ignorance belong?’ We answer, ‘To you who are asking this question!’ (Objection) ‘But I have been declared to be the Isvara Himself by the Scriptures! ( Reply) If you are thus awakened, then there never was any Ignorance that ever belonged to anyone’.” (Sutra Bhasya 4-1-3) (Note: It is obvious that according to this view, any question about Ignorance can arise only at the level of empirical life, where there is duality. One who raises the question, is himself ignorant of the truth, and so, it must be admitted that at that stage the questioner himself is ignorant. But when it is known that Brahman or Isvara is the only Reality, there can be neither any question nor reply concerning ignorance or anything whatsoever. Accordingly, Shankara anticipates another objection, i.e.: that if there really is Ignorance then the Self would have at least one thing second to it and thus Non-Duality would be abandoned. Shankara shows the futility of this objection thus:) “And this defect that is attributed to the system by some, may also be deemed to have been warded off by our reply to the question raised above. For they are supposed to hold that if such were the case, then the Self would have a second beside him in the shape of Ignorance!”(SBh 4-1-3-) (Shankara means to say that it may be granted that duality or the empirical view is possible only so long as the unity of the Self is not yet known, but at the transcendental level of Absolute Reality, there is no duality or ignorance that ever existed at all, and therefore Non Duality stands unimpeded.) So it is from this empirical perspective alone that Shankara begins his teachings about Ignorance or misconception. And from this perspective Ignorance is not a ‘theory’ that Shankara concocted so as to be able to explain the appearance of the world of duality, nor is it some ‘inexplicable’ (anirvachiniya) phenomena that can’t be said to be ‘existent or non-existent’ nor is it a dogmatic postulate that is to be blindly accepted on the strength of the scriptural statements, but rather it is a universal fact of human experience, regardless of age, culture, race or sex. In the whole of Shankaras’ introduction to his Sutra Bhasya, he does not quote even one scripture, or one traditional guru as an authority, nor does he rely on any questionable logical devices to substantiate his teaching that all worldly-empirical life is based on a fundamental misconception. What he does say, however, is that this fundamental misconception (Adhyasa), the misconception of mixing up the Self and the Non-Self, the subject and the object, the knower and the known, (even though it is admittedly opposed to all reason) is a FACT of universal experience (“sarva loka pratikshaha”). What he intents to indicate by this is that although the Self is the subject and conscious, and the Not-Self is the object and of a completely opposed nature to the subject, just like darkness and light (tamasah prakashavad) and it is therefore reasonable that they should not be mixed up, nevertheless, all people without exception and regardless of their intellectual capacities, have naturally and uncritically mixed these two completely different and mutually opposed entities, and in so doing are carrying out their worldly lives in the form of ‘I am this’ and ‘this is mine’. To clarify: You, the reader, are now presumably convinced that you are sitting in front of your computer screens, reading this post, and evaluating the veracity of the assertions that are being made. But for you to be sitting, it is necessary that you have accepted the idea that you are either the body or at least the idea that you have a body. For you to be reading this post, the minimum requirement would be to accept the fact that you have the ‘sense of sight’, and for you to evaluate the correctness or falsity of my assertions, it is absolutely necessary that you have a mind. Yet the idea that you have a body, senses or mind can only come about as a result of not discriminating the Subject from the object, the knower and the known, the Self and the not-Self, and it is the misconception (Adhyasa) or mixing up of these two categories into one identified entity that is the root cause for all of Samsara. It alone is the’ knot that binds’, the Himalayan blunder that serves as the cause for birth and death, for hunger and thirst, for old age and disease, for confusion and doubt, or as Shankara calls it: the “source of all evil”. This and only this is the principle meaning of Ignorance according to Shankara,: i.e Adhyasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and the Not-Self along with the mixing of their distinct qualities on each other. Now, Dennis, we can begin to tackle the question ‘Whence Adhyasa. It is a question that can be interpreted as: ‘ O.K let us grant that Adyhasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and Non-Self, and let us also grant that because of this Adhyasa all worldly life is proceeding, and not only that, let us also grant that due to Adhyasa all ‘spiritual life’ (Vaidika Vyvahara) is proceeding, such as the teachings concerning injunctions (Vidhis) and prohibitions (pratishedas), Karmas and meditations as well as the principle Upanishadic teaching concerning the knowledge of the Self, and how this relates to bondage and release (Bunda Moksha Vyvahara), but the question now is: What is the ‘cause’ for this misconception itself? Why do we superimpose the Self and the Not-Self? What is the reason for this Adhyasa to come about in the first place? Shankaracharya never explicitly poses the question “What is the cause for misconception?” Nevertheless he leaves no doubt in the mind of his readers how exactly this question of the Whence of Adhyasa is to be dealt with. For, to the questions ‘Why do the common people commit or entertain Adhyasa? Why to they wrongly reckon the Self and the Not-Self each for the other? The answers are to be found in the following quotations: 1) “Even though it is not reasonable that people should misconceive the Self for the Not- Self, the worldly people BY NATURE (Naisargika) do have a misconception with regard to the Self and the Not-Self by misconceiving one in the other mutually as also misconceiving the qualities (Dharmas) of each in the other; BECAUSE OF THE REASON THAT THEY HAVE NOT DISCRIMINATED (AVIVEKENA) their qualities which are extremely different, as also those entities (Dharmis) which have those qualities, one from the other.-They have mixed up the Real and the Unreal and are carrying on their workaday transactions NATURALLY due to wrong knowledge(Mithyaajnana nimitaha) in the forms of ‘I am this” and ‘This is mine’..” (Sutra Bha. Adh.Bha. 1. ‘Intro to Brahma Sutra Commentary 2nd paragraph) Here it is evident that Shankara wants to say that this misconception is natural. In other words, he is saying that it is the very nature of the human mind to confound the Self for the Not-Self whenever it functions. It is just like saying ‘it is the nature of water to flow down hill’ why? What is the ‘cause’ for its tendency to flow down a hill? Let us say that it does this ‘nuturally’. Because that is what water always does. Though waters’ tendency to flow down a hill can be said to be its nature, this should not be interpreted as indicating that this is the intrinsic, inalienable nature of water, for water can, under some peculiar circumstances, flow up a hill. And it is in this sense alone that Shankara says that this misconception is ‘natural’ to the human mind, and not that it can never get rid of this tendency to have a misonception regarding the Self and the Not Self. Now, if further pursued, we ask the question what is the ‘cause’ for this natural tendency of the human mind to misconceive the Subject and the Object, the Real and the Unreal, Shankara replies: ‘It is due to the fact that we haven’t discriminated (Avivekena) between the two. Because we have not clearly and distinctively determined what exactly is the Real Self, and what exactly is the Unreal Not-Self, because of this, because of not knowing that the Self is the only Reality and because of not knowing that the Not Self is completely Unreal and therefore never existed as a second thing besides the Self, due to this ‘CAUSE’ of not knowing (Jnana Abava, Agrahana ), due to the ‘reason’ of not having the Knowledge of the Self, we are all misconceiving it. In other words, it amounts to his saying that the inability to distinguish between the Atman and Anatman, Self and Not-Self is the primary ignorance. Because of this primary ignorance, of not knowing (Agrahana) or absence of correct knowledge (Jnana Abava), this primary Ignorance itself is responsible for the “wrong knowledge” (Mithya Jnana), the misconception (Adhyasa) about the Self. One could object to this explanation on the grounds that if “misconception is an ‘effect’ that really exists, then its cause must be something that really ‘exists’. Its’ ‘cause’ can’t be something that is a mere absence, a non–existent ‘cause’ such as not-knowing (Agrahana) or absence of knowledge (Jnana Abava). For everyone adheres to the rule that from non–existence, existence can never come, without an existing cause there can never be an existing effect, and therefore the ‘cause’ must be an existent, a material something, a positive entity. But this objection is the outcome of a confusion about ontological causality and epistemological ‘causality’. And while it is true that for every material effect, a material cause is necessitated (a pot needs its clay and a tree needs its seed), in the case of epistemological ‘causality’ the cause of ‘not knowing’ is quite sufficient to account for the effect of misconceiving. Let us examine a common example: When one mistakes a rope for a snake, if one were to enquire as to the ‘cause’ of that mistake, it would be quite reasonable to reply that “Due to the cause of ‘not knowing’ that it is a rope, the effect of mistaking it for a snake has taken place. In the same exact way it is perfectly intelligible to assert that due to the ‘cause’ of not knowing the Self , you have mistaken it for the Not-Self. And again: “The Field (Kshetra) and the Field Knower (Kshetrajna) means the Not-Self which is the object (vishaya) , and the Self, which is the Subject (vishayi) respectively; although both of these are of different essential natures, having misconceived (Adhyasa) each for the other, and their respective qualities (Dharmas) mutually in each other, is itself their ‘union’, their ‘association’, their ‘contact’ (Samyoga). For this association, the absence or lack of not distinguishing (Viveka Abava) between the essential nature of the Not- Self (Kshetra Svarupa) and the essential nature of the Self (Keshtrajna Svarupa) IS ITELF THE ‘CAUSE’. Just like the the ‘contact’ of a ‘snake’ or ‘silver’ etc., in the rope, shell, etc;-- a ‘contact’ of the nature of a misconception, owing to want of discrimination between the two.” (Gita Bha. 13-26) In this quotation (which is basically a re-echo of his Adhyasa Bhashaya) Shankara makes it even clearer, if that is possible, that the only reason, or ‘cause’ for our misconceiving the Self is merely because we no not know the Self. If we in fact knew the Self, it would not be possible to misconceive it as anything else. Just as in the case of the mistaken knowledge about the misconceived ‘snake’. That misconception could never arise without there being an absence of knowledge with regard to the fact that all that is there, all that was there, all that will be there, is the rope alone. The ‘snake’ was no doubt an ‘effect’ and the absence of knowledge with regard to the rope can be considered to be the ‘cause’ of the snake, but this cause is not a positively existing material ‘thing’ some ontological entity needed to account for the effect called a ‘misconceived snake’. An important corollary of this illustration of the rope-snake is that once we do get the true knowledge of the rope, the ‘objective effect’ of the absence of knowledge ie ” the ‘externally existing snake’, as well as the subjective misconception that the rope is a snake, are immediately removed. In the same way, once we get the true knowledge of the Self, the ‘objective effect’ i.e.: the world of duality, the world of time space and causality, the world of many agents, enjoyers and knowers, as well as the the subjective misconception that what is really the Self alone, is the world of duality, are both immediately removed. Only the Non-Dual Self remains. However, there is also a significant distinction that should be noted between this worldly illustration about misconception and the correct knowledge regarding the rope-snake, as opposed to that which is being illustrated about the misconception (Avidya) and correct knowledge (Vidya) regarding the Self. Before we misconceived the rope as a snake, we were knowers, and after we determine the true nature of the rope and get its correct knowledge, we still remain as knowers, and there is still the possibility that we could have misconceptions in the future with regard to a number of things, including another rope. But in the case of the knowledge of the Self, once we have determined the true Non Dual nature of the Self, all of duality is removed for good, so that the duality of a knower, his means of knowledge, as well as the objects of knowledge no longer remains, and thus there is no possibility that any future misconceptions could arise with regard to the Self, or anything else that was previously misconceived to be existing as a second something in relation to the Self. Knowership is the outcome of superimposing (adhyasa) the Self and the mind. All talk of means of knowledge and objects of knowledge are dependent on a knowership. And knowereship itself depends on Adhyasa, so once this misconception is sublated by the knowledge of the Non-Dual Self, all the empirical dealings of ‘knower’, ‘means of knowledge’, and ‘known;(Pramatru, pramana, premeya vyavahara) ceases to be. There is also another question that makes its appearance when one takes the position that absence of knowledge of the Self is the cause for misconceiving the Self (The Whence Of Adhyasa): To have an absence of knowledge with regard to some object of knowledge, and to misconceive an object of knowledge as something else, requires either the existence of a mind, or to put it in Fox’s term, it requires ‘some ‘one’ who is doing the misconceiving’. It would then mean that that which is superimposed, either the mind, or the individual, both of which are already superimposed on the Self, would be the entities that are doing the superimposition. The superimposed is doing the superimposing? This is the objection: and while at first glance this objection seems valid, because it exposes the defect of an apparent mutual dependency that is being relied upon. The supposed defect of saying that you need a mind to do any type of superimposing, and at the same time asserting that the mind itself is a superimposed thing. But let us examine the rope snake example once again. It is not the case that we first have a misconception that there is a snake, and then after that misconception the snake appears. For the appearance of the snake and the misconception are simultaneous. There is no appearance of a snake without the misconception, and there is no misconception without the appearance of the snake. In the same way there is no Adhyasa without the appearance of the mind, and there is no appearance of the mind without Adhyasa. When Adhyasa is removed the mind is removed, and when there is no mind there is no adhyasa. The same can be said with equal validity regarding the individual; There is no individual without adhyasa and there is no adhyasa without the individual And this in fact is our experience. Whenever the mind makes its appearance it does so with the conviction that Duality is real. With the conviction that it is a knower and there is an independent world which can be known. But when the mind makes its disappearance, as in the state of deep sleep, faint, coma or nirvikalpa samadhi, there is no more any Adhyasa or misconceptions, and also no dualistic dealing of a knower knowing something, no mind and no individuality. And while this answer of Shankaras’ to the question ‘What is the cause for Adhyasa’ is both simple and elegant and in perfect agreement with universal experience, as well as the intelligibility of his claim that this Adhyasa can be totally removed by correct knowledge, this teaching may not feel satisfying to those who have a propensity towards realism and to convoluted hypotheses and unsubstantiated postulates, and would prefer to see the profound teachings of Advaita Vedanta degraded to the level of a speculative theological system that requires of its adherents both blind belief and unquestioning submission to the authority of the Scripture and the Guru. They may instead prefer to dogmatically assert (while no other system of philosophy, darshana, or religion, has ever thought it necessary to put forth such a view) that instead of ‘not knowing’ being the cause for Adhyasa, there is an indescribable, inconceivable beginingless and endless power, that has the capacity to cover the Absolute and project the world, an ontological entity (not something totally false or unreal), made up of three gunas, and which cannot be described as existent nor non-existent, and which is a Shakti that inheres in the very nature of the Absolute! An unbelievable view that Shankara never even hinted at in all of his writings! So be it. But I must end this post by asking them to sincerely enquire, in their own hearts as seekers of truth, what is the answer to just one question? Forget about what Shankara may or may not have said on the subject, put aside what any ‘tradition’ or Swami may have declared, and ask yourself: How would it be possible for Knowledge to remove such an entity?? Can knowledge really get rid of some material (Upadana Karana) ‘thing’ (Bhava Rupa) that actually exists from beginingless time?? Just answer that. If there is a reasonable answer to this question, I eagerly wait to hear about it. Om Tat Sat Atmachaitanya P.S. ‘ How the Shastra is the only means of knowledge for the Self’ is coming Dear Dennis, and all others interested in the subject, namaste, When you originally asked the question, ’Whence Adhyasas’ you did so in the context of a seeming problem that was raised by Douglas Fox’s’ assertion that the cause of Adhyasa could not be answered by three possible alternatives 1) That Brahman is the cause 2) That something independent of Brahman was the cause 3) That we ourselves are the cause. I would like to attempt an answer to your question ‘Whence Adhyasa’ by advocating the third choice, that I am the ‘cause’, in the sense that: ‘I don’t know the Self, I haven’t been able to discriminate the true nature of the Self, and due to this , I may be considered the ‘cause’ of superimposition, and to show how this in fact is Shankaras position, (as opposed to the Mula Avidya Vadins who opted for the second alternative, and by so doing in fact abandoned Non Duality) and to demonstrate that by taking such a position, it does not result in the unacceptable consequences that Fox seems to think it does. I would like to further add that this subject is not of merely academic interest, nor is it only a matter of semantics with no real practical outcomes, for the subjects of Ignorance and Misconception are the very cornerstone of Shankaras Advaita: a topic which he describes as the “anartha hetu” –the source of all evil- and that the primary purpose of all the Vedantic teaching is solely to remove this primary Misconception and nothing else. However, before beginning, I think a few preliminary comments are in order. I would like to emphasize the fact that, with regard to the contents of this post as well as all my previous posts, I make no claim to any originality in thinking at all. Everything that I put forth is either from the writings of Sri Shankaracharaya, Guadapada, and Suresvaracharya, whom I take to be the true representatives of the Advaitic Tradition’ as I understand it, as well as the voluminous writings of Swami Satchidanandendra, the works of Swami Jnanandendra (The former Vidya Guru of the Maharaja of Mysore), and extensive conversations with Swami Atmanandendra, and other direct disciples of Swami Satchidanandendra. I have made free use of these last mentioned sources either by paraphrasing their positions on various topics, or by reproducing their exact words without mentioning the specific texts and verses from which they are derived. The same will be the case in this post. Whence Adhyasa? All Indian thinkers who put forth the view that there is only one Absolute Reality have had to grapple with the question: If there is only the Absolute Reality, then how is it that the dualistic world of multiplicity makes its appearance? The answer to this question has basically been dealt with by positing some power, force, energy, ‘desire’ or primal ‘stuff’, that inheres in the very fabric of the Absolute. Thus the Shaivites postulated a ‘Shakti’ that is inseparable from Shiva, and which allows Shiva to perform his ‘dance of creation’. The Kashmiri Shavaites called it “Tuiti” (The primordial seed), or ”Iccha”(the desire of Shiva). The Dzog Chen Buddhists called it ‘Stahal’( The inexhaustible inherent energy of the Absolute). Ramanuja held that the Absolute associated with Chit(consciousness) and Achit (insentient) is the cause of the world. Vallabhas’ Shuda-Advaita held that the ‘inner power’ of the Absolute called ‘Maya’, was the cause for the world. It should be noted that all these thinkers accepted the reality of the world, and therefore it was really created, and therefore there must be a cause for it and that cause must in some way inhere in the very nature of the Absolute. This very same pathetically ‘realistic’ type of Absolutism was mimicked by the post Shankara Advaita Vedantins who, like their dualistic brethren, postulated an actually existing ‘Mula Avidya’(Root Ignorance) that inhered in the very nature of the Absolute from beginingless time so as to account for the world of duality. In addition, this ontological principle (Bhava-rupa, tri-guna atmika, vastu) was hypothesized to be not only the ‘cause for creation’ but also the ultimate cause (The Whence of Adhyasa) for all the individuals who each had their own personal misconceptions (Adhyasas) about the nature of the Absolute! That this explanation of the “Whence of Adhyasa” is false, completely opposed to reason, experience and to Shankaras radical Non-Dualism (Na sajati bedha, Na vijati bedha, Na svagati bedha) as well as what is the correct explanation, according to Shankara, for the cause of Adhyasa(superimposition) will be unfolded in what follows. In order to understand the ‘Whence of Adhyasa’, at least according to Shankaracharya, the first important issue that must be appreciated is the distinction between the “Absolute point of view”(Paramarthika Drishti) and the “Worldly or empirical point of view” (Loukika-vyavharika Dristi). From the Absolute perspective, the perspective of truth, there was never anyone who had ignorance, no one had to get any sort of knowledge to remove that ignorance, and there never was a Guru who had to teach the meaning of the Upanishads to a seeker so that he could be released from his bondage caused by that ignorance. This is the final position of Advaita Vedanta, and not that in fact a really existing Ignorance that someone actually had was at some particular point in time removed by the Shastra Pramana, and in so doing the seeker really became liberated. (It should be noted that if in fact this were the case then liberation would be an event in time, and thus it would have a beginning and would therefore necessarily have an end. It could not be eternal.) For the final realization is merely recognizing the fact that ‘I am the Absolute Reality’, and in me there never was, is, or will be any ignorance and therefore no need for the removal of that ignorance at all. (Of course, the same can be said for the concepts of Karma, Rebirth, Qualifications for the attainment of Knowledge, Creator and his creation, or that there are three states and we are passing through those states, etc. etc.).This distinction between the Absolute Reality and the ‘Empirical’ viewpoint should be unfailingly borne in mind in order to reconcile the several seeming self-contradictory statements in Shankaras’ commentaries. In the light of the above it becomes easy to understand that all talk of someone having ignorance, the cause of his ignorance (The Whence of Adhyaasa), the object of his ignorance, his need to remove that ignorance, the means by which that ignorance is removed, are all from the ‘worldly’ or empirical point of view’, the point of view of duality, in fact, the point of view of ignorance. To illustrate that this distinction of the Absolute and the Empirical viewpoints in relation to the topic of Ignorance is utilized by Shankara, the following quotes should suffice: “If it should be asked ‘And to whom does this Ignorance belong?’ We answer, ‘To you who are asking this question!’ (Objection) ‘But I have been declared to be the Isvara Himself by the Scriptures! ( Reply) If you are thus awakened, then there never was any Ignorance that ever belonged to anyone’.” (Sutra Bhasya 4-1-3) (Note: It is obvious that according to this view, any question about Ignorance can arise only at the level of empirical life, where there is duality. One who raises the question, is himself ignorant of the truth, and so, it must be admitted that at that stage the questioner himself is ignorant. But when it is known that Brahman or Isvara is the only Reality, there can be neither any question nor reply concerning ignorance or anything whatsoever. Accordingly, Shankara anticipates another objection, i.e.: that if there really is Ignorance then the Self would have at least one thing second to it and thus Non-Duality would be abandoned. Shankara shows the futility of this objection thus:) “And this defect that is attributed to the system by some, may also be deemed to have been warded off by our reply to the question raised above. For they are supposed to hold that if such were the case, then the Self would have a second beside him in the shape of Ignorance!”(SBh 4-1-3-) (Shankara means to say that it may be granted that duality or the empirical view is possible only so long as the unity of the Self is not yet known, but at the transcendental level of Absolute Reality, there is no duality or ignorance that ever existed at all, and therefore Non Duality stands unimpeded.) So it is from this empirical perspective alone that Shankara begins his teachings about Ignorance or misconception. And from this perspective Ignorance is not a ‘theory’ that Shankara concocted so as to be able to explain the appearance of the world of duality, nor is it some ‘inexplicable’ (anirvachiniya) phenomena that can’t be said to be ‘existent or non-existent’ nor is it a dogmatic postulate that is to be blindly accepted on the strength of the scriptural statements, but rather it is a universal fact of human experience, regardless of age, culture, race or sex. In the whole of Shankaras’ introduction to his Sutra Bhasya, he does not quote even one scripture, or one traditional guru as an authority, nor does he rely on any questionable logical devices to substantiate his teaching that all worldly-empirical life is based on a fundamental misconception. What he does say, however, is that this fundamental misconception (Adhyasa), the misconception of mixing up the Self and the Non-Self, the subject and the object, the knower and the known, (even though it is admittedly opposed to all reason) is a FACT of universal experience (“sarva loka pratikshaha”). What he intents to indicate by this is that although the Self is the subject and conscious, and the Not-Self is the object and of a completely opposed nature to the subject, just like darkness and light (tamasah prakashavad) and it is therefore reasonable that they should not be mixed up, nevertheless, all people without exception and regardless of their intellectual capacities, have naturally and uncritically mixed these two completely different and mutually opposed entities, and in so doing are carrying out their worldly lives in the form of ‘I am this’ and ‘this is mine’. To clarify: You, the reader, are now presumably convinced that you are sitting in front of your computer screens, reading this post, and evaluating the veracity of the assertions that are being made. But for you to be sitting, it is necessary that you have accepted the idea that you are either the body or at least the idea that you have a body. For you to be reading this post, the minimum requirement would be to accept the fact that you have the ‘sense of sight’, and for you to evaluate the correctness or falsity of my assertions, it is absolutely necessary that you have a mind. Yet the idea that you have a body, senses or mind can only come about as a result of not discriminating the Subject from the object, the knower and the known, the Self and the not-Self, and it is the misconception (Adhyasa) or mixing up of these two categories into one identified entity that is the root cause for all of Samsara. It alone is the’ knot that binds’, the Himalayan blunder that serves as the cause for birth and death, for hunger and thirst, for old age and disease, for confusion and doubt, or as Shankara calls it: the “source of all evil”. This and only this is the principle meaning of Ignorance according to Shankara,: i.e Adhyasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and the Not-Self along with the mixing of their distinct qualities on each other. Now, Dennis, we can begin to tackle the question ‘Whence Adhyasa. It is a question that can be interpreted as: ‘ O.K let us grant that Adyhasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and Non-Self, and let us also grant that because of this Adhyasa all worldly life is proceeding, and not only that, let us also grant that due to Adhyasa all ‘spiritual life’ (Vaidika Vyvahara) is proceeding, such as the teachings concerning injunctions (Vidhis) and prohibitions (pratishedas), Karmas and meditations as well as the principle Upanishadic teaching concerning the knowledge of the Self, and how this relates to bondage and release (Bunda Moksha Vyvahara), but the question now is: What is the ‘cause’ for this misconception itself? Why do we superimpose the Self and the Not-Self? What is the reason for this Adhyasa to come about in the first place? Shankaracharya never explicitly poses the question “What is the cause for misconception?” Nevertheless he leaves no doubt in the mind of his readers how exactly this question of the Whence of Adhyasa is to be dealt with. For, to the questions ‘Why do the common people commit or entertain Adhyasa? Why to they wrongly reckon the Self and the Not-Self each for the other? The answers are to be found in the following quotations: 1) “Even though it is not reasonable that people should misconceive the Self for the Not- Self, the worldly people BY NATURE (Naisargika) do have a misconception with regard to the Self and the Not-Self by misconceiving one in the other mutually as also misconceiving the qualities (Dharmas) of each in the other; BECAUSE OF THE REASON THAT THEY HAVE NOT DISCRIMINATED (AVIVEKENA) their qualities which are extremely different, as also those entities (Dharmis) which have those qualities, one from the other.-They have mixed up the Real and the Unreal and are carrying on their workaday transactions NATURALLY due to wrong knowledge(Mithyaajnana nimitaha) in the forms of ‘I am this” and ‘This is mine’..” (Sutra Bha. Adh.Bha. 1. ‘Intro to Brahma Sutra Commentary 2nd paragraph) Here it is evident that Shankara wants to say that this misconception is natural. In other words, he is saying that it is the very nature of the human mind to confound the Self for the Not-Self whenever it functions. It is just like saying ‘it is the nature of water to flow down hill’ why? What is the ‘cause’ for its tendency to flow down a hill? Let us say that it does this ‘nuturally’. Because that is what water always does. Though waters’ tendency to flow down a hill can be said to be its nature, this should not be interpreted as indicating that this is the intrinsic, inalienable nature of water, for water can, under some peculiar circumstances, flow up a hill. And it is in this sense alone that Shankara says that this misconception is ‘natural’ to the human mind, and not that it can never get rid of this tendency to have a misonception regarding the Self and the Not Self. Now, if further pursued, we ask the question what is the ‘cause’ for this natural tendency of the human mind to misconceive the Subject and the Object, the Real and the Unreal, Shankara replies: ‘It is due to the fact that we haven’t discriminated (Avivekena) between the two. Because we have not clearly and distinctively determined what exactly is the Real Self, and what exactly is the Unreal Not-Self, because of this, because of not knowing that the Self is the only Reality and because of not knowing that the Not Self is completely Unreal and therefore never existed as a second thing besides the Self, due to this ‘CAUSE’ of not knowing (Jnana Abava, Agrahana ), due to the ‘reason’ of not having the Knowledge of the Self, we are all misconceiving it. In other words, it amounts to his saying that the inability to distinguish between the Atman and Anatman, Self and Not-Self is the primary ignorance. Because of this primary ignorance, of not knowing (Agrahana) or absence of correct knowledge (Jnana Abava), this primary Ignorance itself is responsible for the “wrong knowledge” (Mithya Jnana), the misconception (Adhyasa) about the Self. One could object to this explanation on the grounds that if “misconception is an ‘effect’ that really exists, then its cause must be something that really ‘exists’. Its’ ‘cause’ can’t be something that is a mere absence, a non–existent ‘cause’ such as not-knowing (Agrahana) or absence of knowledge (Jnana Abava). For everyone adheres to the rule that from non–existence, existence can never come, without an existing cause there can never be an existing effect, and therefore the ‘cause’ must be an existent, a material something, a positive entity. But this objection is the outcome of a confusion about ontological causality and epistemological ‘causality’. And while it is true that for every material effect, a material cause is necessitated (a pot needs its clay and a tree needs its seed), in the case of epistemological ‘causality’ the cause of ‘not knowing’ is quite sufficient to account for the effect of misconceiving. Let us examine a common example: When one mistakes a rope for a snake, if one were to enquire as to the ‘cause’ of that mistake, it would be quite reasonable to reply that “Due to the cause of ‘not knowing’ that it is a rope, the effect of mistaking it for a snake has taken place. In the same exact way it is perfectly intelligible to assert that due to the ‘cause’ of not knowing the Self , you have mistaken it for the Not-Self. And again: “The Field (Kshetra) and the Field Knower (Kshetrajna) means the Not-Self which is the object (vishaya) , and the Self, which is the Subject (vishayi) respectively; although both of these are of different essential natures, having misconceived (Adhyasa) each for the other, and their respective qualities (Dharmas) mutually in each other, is itself their ‘union’, their ‘association’, their ‘contact’ (Samyoga). For this association, the absence or lack of not distinguishing (Viveka Abava) between the essential nature of the Not- Self (Kshetra Svarupa) and the essential nature of the Self (Keshtrajna Svarupa) IS ITELF THE ‘CAUSE’. Just like the the ‘contact’ of a ‘snake’ or ‘silver’ etc., in the rope, shell, etc;-- a ‘contact’ of the nature of a misconception, owing to want of discrimination between the two.” (Gita Bha. 13-26) In this quotation (which is basically a re-echo of his Adhyasa Bhashaya) Shankara makes it even clearer, if that is possible, that the only reason, or ‘cause’ for our misconceiving the Self is merely because we no not know the Self. If we in fact knew the Self, it would not be possible to misconceive it as anything else. Just as in the case of the mistaken knowledge about the misconceived ‘snake’. That misconception could never arise without there being an absence of knowledge with regard to the fact that all that is there, all that was there, all that will be there, is the rope alone. The ‘snake’ was no doubt an ‘effect’ and the absence of knowledge with regard to the rope can be considered to be the ‘cause’ of the snake, but this cause is not a positively existing material ‘thing’ some ontological entity needed to account for the effect called a ‘misconceived snake’. An important corollary of this illustration of the rope-snake is that once we do get the true knowledge of the rope, the ‘objective effect’ of the absence of knowledge ie ” the ‘externally existing snake’, as well as the subjective misconception that the rope is a snake, are immediately removed. In the same way, once we get the true knowledge of the Self, the ‘objective effect’ i.e.: the world of duality, the world of time space and causality, the world of many agents, enjoyers and knowers, as well as the the subjective misconception that what is really the Self alone, is the world of duality, are both immediately removed. Only the Non-Dual Self remains. However, there is also a significant distinction that should be noted between this worldly illustration about misconception and the correct knowledge regarding the rope-snake, as opposed to that which is being illustrated about the misconception (Avidya) and correct knowledge (Vidya) regarding the Self. Before we misconceived the rope as a snake, we were knowers, and after we determine the true nature of the rope and get its correct knowledge, we still remain as knowers, and there is still the possibility that we could have misconceptions in the future with regard to a number of things, including another rope. But in the case of the knowledge of the Self, once we have determined the true Non Dual nature of the Self, all of duality is removed for good, so that the duality of a knower, his means of knowledge, as well as the objects of knowledge no longer remains, and thus there is no possibility that any future misconceptions could arise with regard to the Self, or anything else that was previously misconceived to be existing as a second something in relation to the Self. Knowership is the outcome of superimposing (adhyasa) the Self and the mind. All talk of means of knowledge and objects of knowledge are dependent on a knowership. And knowereship itself depends on Adhyasa, so once this misconception is sublated by the knowledge of the Non-Dual Self, all the empirical dealings of ‘knower’, ‘means of knowledge’, and ‘known;(Pramatru, pramana, premeya vyavahara) ceases to be. There is also another question that makes its appearance when one takes the position that absence of knowledge of the Self is the cause for misconceiving the Self (The Whence Of Adhyasa): To have an absence of knowledge with regard to some object of knowledge, and to misconceive an object of knowledge as something else, requires either the existence of a mind, or to put it in Fox’s term, it requires ‘some ‘one’ who is doing the misconceiving’. It would then mean that that which is superimposed, either the mind, or the individual, both of which are already superimposed on the Self, would be the entities that are doing the superimposition. The superimposed is doing the superimposing? This is the objection: and while at first glance this objection seems valid, because it exposes the defect of an apparent mutual dependency that is being relied upon. The supposed defect of saying that you need a mind to do any type of superimposing, and at the same time asserting that the mind itself is a superimposed thing. But let us examine the rope snake example once again. It is not the case that we first have a misconception that there is a snake, and then after that misconception the snake appears. For the appearance of the snake and the misconception are simultaneous. There is no appearance of a snake without the misconception, and there is no misconception without the appearance of the snake. In the same way there is no Adhyasa without the appearance of the mind, and there is no appearance of the mind without Adhyasa. When Adhyasa is removed the mind is removed, and when there is no mind there is no adhyasa. The same can be said with equal validity regarding the individual; There is no individual without adhyasa and there is no adhyasa without the individual And this in fact is our experience. Whenever the mind makes its appearance it does so with the conviction that Duality is real. With the conviction that it is a knower and there is an independent world which can be known. But when the mind makes its disappearance, as in the state of deep sleep, faint, coma or nirvikalpa samadhi, there is no more any Adhyasa or misconceptions, and also no dualistic dealing of a knower knowing something, no mind and no individuality. And while this answer of Shankaras’ to the question ‘What is the cause for Adhyasa’ is both simple and elegant and in perfect agreement with universal experience, as well as the intelligibility of his claim that this Adhyasa can be totally removed by correct knowledge, this teaching may not feel satisfying to those who have a propensity towards realism and to convoluted hypotheses and unsubstantiated postulates, and would prefer to see the profound teachings of Advaita Vedanta degraded to the level of a speculative theological system that requires of its adherents both blind belief and unquestioning submission to the authority of the Scripture and the Guru. They may instead prefer to dogmatically assert (while no other system of philosophy, darshana, or religion, has ever thought it necessary to put forth such a view) that instead of ‘not knowing’ being the cause for Adhyasa, there is an indescribable, inconceivable beginingless and endless power, that has the capacity to cover the Absolute and project the world, an ontological entity (not something totally false or unreal), made up of three gunas, and which cannot be described as existent nor non-existent, and which is a Shakti that inheres in the very nature of the Absolute! An unbelievable view that Shankara never even hinted at in all of his writings! So be it. But I must end this post by asking them to sincerely enquire, in their own hearts as seekers of truth, what is the answer to just one question? Forget about what Shankara may or may not have said on the subject, put aside what any ‘tradition’ or Swami may have declared, and ask yourself: How would it be possible for Knowledge to remove such an entity?? Can knowledge really get rid of some material (Upadana Karana) ‘thing’ (Bhava Rupa) that actually exists from beginingless time?? Just answer that. If there is a reasonable answer to this question, I eagerly wait to hear about it. Om Tat Sat Atmachaitanya P.S. ‘ How the Shastra is the only means of knowledge for the Self’ is coming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2002 Report Share Posted March 24, 2002 You raise so many great points that I just could not resist to join your conversation. In a message dated 3/24/02 4:24:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, stadri writes: stadri: Whence Adhyasa? All Indian thinkers who put forth the view that there is only one Absolute Reality have had to grapple with the question: If there is only the Absolute Reality, then how is it that the dualistic world of multiplicity makes its appearance? The answer to this question has basically been dealt with by positing some power, force, energy, 'desire' or primal 'stuff', that inheres in the very fabric of the Absolute. Thus the Shaivites postulated a 'Shakti' that is inseparable from Shiva, and which allows Shiva to perform his 'dance of creation'. The Kashmiri Shavaites called it "Tuiti" (The primordial seed), or "Iccha"(the desire of Shiva). The Dzog Chen Buddhists called it 'Stahal'( The inexhaustible inherent energy of the Absolute). Ramanuja held that the Absolute associated with Chit(consciousness) and Achit (insentient) is the cause of the world. Vallabhas' Shuda-Advaita held that the 'inner power' of the Absolute called 'Maya', was the cause for the world. It should be noted that all these thinkers accepted the reality of the world, and therefore it was really created, and therefore there must be a cause for it and that cause must in some way inhere in the very nature of the Absolute. stadri: This very same pathetically 'realistic' type of Absolutism was mimicked by the post Shankara Advaita Vedantins who, like their dualistic brethren, postulated an actually existing 'Mula Avidya'(Root Ignorance) that inhered in the very nature of the Absolute from beginingless time so as to account for the world of duality. In addition, this ontological principle (Bhava-rupa, tri-guna atmika, vastu) was hypothesized to be not only the 'cause for creation' but also the ultimate cause (The Whence of Adhyasa) for all the individuals who each had their own personal misconceptions (Adhyasas) about the nature of the Absolute! That this explanation of the "Whence of Adhyasa" is false, completely opposed to reason, experience and to Shankaras radical Non-Dualism (Na sajati bedha, Na vijati bedha, Na svagati bedha) as well as what is the correct explanation, according to Shankara, for the cause of Adhyasa(superimposition) will be unfolded in what follows. edmeasure: With regard to 'Mula Avidya'above, it would seem that we would have to also define what 'actually existing' really means. For instance, we could and probably do considered in this context that 'Root Ignorance' exists whenever a thought appears repeatedly, some sensible imagery of duality. We take our stance on any issue through long term conditionings. A 'belief' arises and thereafter we try to work out a consistent and logical intellectual (verbal based) structure to support the idea, that is, the strong deeply impregnated emotive 'belief' sentiments. Upon some long term reconditioning, say via hypnotic indoctrination and/or through Pavlov like repetitions from different culture-language settings, the nature of 'beliefs' and upheld realities change. These various conditionings might be termed 'actually existing', since they can change the nature of perceived forms of adhyâsa when the conditionings change. Indeed, the yoga sutras call such conditionings, 'samskâras', a sticking sort of stuff that continually modifies world views, i.e., filtering stuff that might be removed. Upon removal, the subtle awareness of âtma type views begins to move to less dense brahman views. stadri: In order to understand the 'Whence of Adhyasa', at least according to Shankaracharya, the first important issue that must be appreciated is the distinction between the "Absolute point of view"(Paramarthika Drishti) and the "Worldly or empirical point of view" (Loukika-vyavharika Dristi). From the Absolute perspective, the perspective of truth, there was never anyone who had ignorance, no one had to get any sort of knowledge to remove that ignorance, and there never was a Guru who had to teach the meaning of the Upanishads to a seeker so that he could be released from his bondage caused by that ignorance. This is the final position of Advaita Vedanta, and not that in fact a really existing Ignorance that someone actually had was at some particular point in time removed by the Shastra Pramana, and in so doing the seeker really became liberated. (It should be noted that if in fact this were the case then liberation would be an event in time, and thus it would have a beginning and would therefore necessarily have an end. It could not be eternal.) For the final realization is merely recognizing the fact that 'I am the Absolute Reality', and in me there never was, is, or will be any ignorance and therefore no need for the removal of that ignorance at all. (Of course, the same can be said for the concepts of Karma, Rebirth, Qualifications for the attainment of Knowledge, Creator and his creation, or that there are three states and we are passing through those states, etc. etc.).This distinction between the Absolute Reality and the 'Empirical' viewpoint should be unfailingly borne in mind in order to reconcile the several seeming self-contradictory statements in Shankaras' commentaries. edmeasure: There can be no 'absolute perspective of truth' for absolute perspective, by definition, contains no object of evaluation. From an 'ignorance perspective' we can postulate that less dense views become available as we rid ourselves of the sludge of ignorance. Moreover, such can be experienced also. Again, by definition, if one recognizes that 'I am the Absolute Reality', then we can be assured that we are NOT recognizing the Absolute Reality at that moment, unless of course, the two views come up superimposed over one another. I thank the lord for plenty of this ignorance that makes it possible to bask in the sakti flowings of pure being and bliss. If I'm not mistaken, 'the final position of Advaita Vedanta' goes something like a 'Movement from the fullness of Fullness to the fullness of Nothingness, and back again', or the like. The joy of life and the full unfoldment of Sankara comes out of such movements between duality and the transcendental, and back and forth, again and again. To see the creator more clearly, we must dispense with at least some of the ignorance to prod along the eventual longer lasting superposition of the transcendental upon duality. The distinction between the Absolute and the Empirical is absolutely held in mind, literally giving rise to a superposition. Indeed, we need a little of this ignorance, lesâvidya, to be able to enjoy the sakti flowings of siva's dance. stadri: In the light of the above it becomes easy to understand that all talk of someone having ignorance, the cause of his ignorance (The Whence of Adhyaasa), the object of his ignorance, his need to remove that ignorance, the means by which that ignorance is removed, are all from the 'worldly' or empirical point of view', the point of view of duality, in fact, the point of view of ignorance. edmeasure: Precisely. We can't speak of ignorance, or of anything else, from the point of view of the transcendent. All this talk that we are partaking in here is from the point of view of ignorance. Only ignorance can speak, but I think we are looking at shades of difference here, where all the action lies. stadri: To illustrate that this distinction of the Absolute and the Empirical viewpoints in relation to the topic of Ignorance is utilized by Shankara, the following quotes should suffice: "If it should be asked 'And to whom does this Ignorance belong?' We answer, 'To you who are asking this question!' (Objection) 'But I have been declared to be the Isvara Himself by the Scriptures! ( Reply) If you are thus awakened, then there never was any Ignorance that ever belonged to anyone'." (Sutra Bhasya 4-1-3) stadri: (Note: It is obvious that according to this view, any question about Ignorance can arise only at the level of empirical life, where there is duality. One who raises the question, is himself ignorant of the truth, and so, it must be admitted that at that stage the questioner himself is ignorant. But when it is known that Brahman or Isvara is the only Reality, there can be neither any question nor reply concerning ignorance or anything whatsoever. Accordingly, Shankara anticipates another objection, i.e.: that if there really is Ignorance then the Self would have at least one thing second to it and thus Non-Duality would be abandoned. Shankara shows the futility of this objection thus:) "And this defect that is attributed to the system by some, may also be deemed to have been warded off by our reply to the question raised above. For they are supposed to hold that if such were the case, then the Self would have a second beside him in the shape of Ignorance!"(SBh 4-1-3-) (Shankara means to say that it may be granted that duality or the empirical view is possible only so long as the unity of the Self is not yet known, but at the transcendental level of Absolute Reality, there is no duality or ignorance that ever existed at all, and therefore Non Duality stands unimpeded.) edmeasure: We again come to a critical point, that it is possible to be simultaneously aware of pure being, that transcendental level of Absolute Reality, along with phenomena of duality. Subject-object interrelationships can be witnessed by that pure being aspect, that movement into brahman self. This is an experience that can and does come up, again and again, and presumably will eventually stay in place all of the time, in due time. We can experience a switching back and forth from duality to transcendent reality and back to duality, again and again. Eventually, the two start to appear simultaneously for a time. There is a superposition. This experience is available to all, but many would deny the possibility of so experiencing, especially if the apparent scriptural meaning seems to rule out such a thing. It is fruitless to try to intellectually move into such experience. There is, must be, a most subtle initiation process, a product not devoid of Sankara himself and of others closely surrounding him as mentioned herein. stadri: So it is from this empirical perspective alone that Shankara begins his teachings about Ignorance or misconception. And from this perspective Ignorance is not a 'theory' that Shankara concocted so as to be able to explain the appearance of the world of duality, nor is it some 'inexplicable' (anirvachiniya) phenomena that can't be said to be 'existent or non-existent' nor is it a dogmatic postulate that is to be blindly accepted on the strength of the scriptural statements, but rather it is a universal fact of human experience, regardless of age, culture, race or sex. In the whole of Shankaras' introduction to his Sutra Bhasya, he does not quote even one scripture, or one traditional guru as an authority, nor does he rely on any questionable logical devices to substantiate his teaching that all worldly-empirical life is based on a fundamental misconception. stadri: What he does say, however, is that this fundamental misconception (Adhyasa), the misconception of mixing up the Self and the Non-Self, the subject and the object, the knower and the known, (even though it is admittedly opposed to all reason) is a FACT of universal experience ("sarva loka pratikshaha"). What he intents to indicate by this is that although the Self is the subject and conscious, and the Not-Self is the object and of a completely opposed nature to the subject, just like darkness and light (tamasah prakashavad) and it is therefore reasonable that they should not be mixed up, nevertheless, all people without exception and regardless of their intellectual capacities, have naturally and uncritically mixed these two completely different and mutually opposed entities, and in so doing are carrying out their worldly lives in the form of 'I am this' and 'this is mine'. To clarify: You, the reader, are now presumably convinced that you are sitting in front of your computer screens, reading this post, and evaluating the veracity of the assertions that are being made. But for you to be sitting, it is necessary that you have accepted the idea that you are either the body or at least the idea that you have a body. For you to be reading this post, the minimum requirement would be to accept the fact that you have the 'sense of sight', and for you to evaluate the correctness or falsity of my assertions, it is absolutely necessary that you have a mind. Yet the idea that you have a body, senses or mind can only come about as a result of not discriminating the Subject from the object, the knower and the known, the Self and the not-Self, and it is the misconception (Adhyasa) or mixing up of these two categories into one identified entity that is the root cause for all of Samsara. It alone is the' knot that binds', the Himalayan blunder that serves as the cause for birth and death, for hunger and thirst, for old age and disease, for confusion and doubt, or as Shankara calls it: the "source of all evil". This and only this is the principle meaning of Ignorance according to Shankara,: i.e Adhyasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and the Not-Self along with the mixing of their distinct qualities on each other. edmeasure: First, in gross ignorance, the Self and non-Self are all mixed up. Eventually, we find them separated in both intellectual fields and experiential fields. Then yet again, the Self and non-Self find themselves superimposed with one another. However, this time, after getting rid of some gross samskâras, the two are not simply unknown in some sort of gross oblivion because of aviveka, but rather, the two distinct realities are seen superimposed over each other. stadri: Now, Dennis, we can begin to tackle the question 'Whence Adhyasa. It is a question that can be interpreted as: ' O.K let us grant that Adyhasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and Non-Self, and let us also grant that because of this Adhyasa all worldly life is proceeding, and not only that, let us also grant that due to Adhyasa all 'spiritual life' (Vaidika Vyvahara) is proceeding, such as the teachings concerning injunctions (Vidhis) and prohibitions (pratishedas), Karmas and meditations as well as the principle Upanishadic teaching concerning the knowledge of the Self, and how this relates to bondage and release (Bunda Moksha Vyvahara), but the question now is: What is the 'cause' for this misconception itself? Why do we superimpose the Self and the Not-Self? What is the reason for this Adhyasa to come about in the first place? edmeasure: Ah! Why am I? That's a little tougher. Is it not said, 'to play'? stadri: Shankaracharya never explicitly poses the question "What is the cause for misconception?" Nevertheless he leaves no doubt in the mind of his readers how exactly this question of the Whence of Adhyasa is to be dealt with. For, to the questions 'Why do the common people commit or entertain Adhyasa? Why to they wrongly reckon the Self and the Not-Self each for the other? The answers are to be found in the following quotations: stadri: 1) "Even though it is not reasonable that people should misconceive the Self for the Not- Self, the worldly people BY NATURE (Naisargika) do have a misconception with regard to the Self and the Not-Self by misconceiving one in the other mutually as also misconceiving the qualities (Dharmas) of each in the other; BECAUSE OF THE REASON THAT THEY HAVE NOT DISCRIMINATED (AVIVEKENA) their qualities which are extremely different, as also those entities (Dharmis) which have those qualities, one from the other.-They have mixed up the Real and the Unreal and are carrying on their workaday transactions NATURALLY due to wrong knowledge(Mithyaajnana nimitaha) in the forms of 'I am this" and 'This is mine'.." (Sutra Bha. Adh.Bha. 1. 'Intro to Brahma Sutra Commentary 2nd paragraph) stadri: Here it is evident that Shankara wants to say that this misconception is natural. In other words, he is saying that it is the very nature of the human mind to confound the Self for the Not-Self whenever it functions. It is just like saying 'it is the nature of water to flow down hill' why? What is the 'cause' for its tendency to flow down a hill? Let us say that it does this 'nuturally'. Because that is what water always does. Though waters' tendency to flow down a hill can be said to be its nature, this should not be interpreted as indicating that this is the intrinsic, inalienable nature of water, for water can, under some peculiar circumstances, flow up a hill. And it is in this sense alone that Shankara says that this misconception is 'natural' to the human mind, and not that it can never get rid of this tendency to have a misonception regarding the Self and the Not Self. edmeasure: Water flows down hill because it is a law of nature. The Self non-Self dichotomy is also a law of nature, to enjoy. The mind is that inscrutable (so far) entity that can transform itself back and forth between the two worlds of Self and non-Self, between the transcendent and duality. Laws of nature can be seen in more detail if we can find a suitable language (vocabulary) to state the propositions. stadri: Now, if further pursued, we ask the question what is the 'cause' for this natural tendency of the human mind to misconceive the Subject and the Object, the Real and the Unreal, Shankara replies: 'It is due to the fact that we haven't discriminated (Avivekena) between the two. Because we have not clearly and distinctively determined what exactly is the Real Self, and what exactly is the Unreal Not-Self, because of this, because of not knowing that the Self is the only Reality and because of not knowing that the Not Self is completely Unreal and therefore never existed as a second thing besides the Self, due to this 'CAUSE' of not knowing (Jnana Abava, Agrahana ), due to the 'reason' of not having the Knowledge of the Self, we are all misconceiving it. In other words, it amounts to his saying that the inability to distinguish between the Atman and Anatman, Self and Not-Self is the primary ignorance. Because of this primary ignorance, of not knowing (Agrahana) or absence of correct knowledge (Jnana Abava), this primary Ignorance itself is responsible for the "wrong knowledge" (Mithya Jnana), the misconception (Adhyasa) about the Self. edmeasure: In the end, the physicist sees all of the world as nothing but a jumble of vibrations, sakti flows if you will, the same for consciousness. The table is not there, rather, mostly space with a tiny ding of energy, here and there. He almost sounds like a Vedantist. Worst, he sees particles and anti-particles created out of nothing and later dissolving back into nothing. The 'nothing' is yet known to be a seething broth of everything. It might be interesting to follow mental transformations in similar ways as a physicist follows physical transformations. After all, both are in the same field of duality, and both seem to come out of and then stream off back into unity. stadri: One could object to this explanation on the grounds that if "misconception is an 'effect' that really exists, then its cause must be something that really 'exists'. Its' 'cause' can't be something that is a mere absence, a non-existent 'cause' such as not-knowing (Agrahana) or absence of knowledge (Jnana Abava). For everyone adheres to the rule that from non-existence, existence can never come, without an existing cause there can never be an existing effect, and therefore the 'cause' must be an existent, a material something, a positive entity. But this objection is the outcome of a confusion about ontological causality and epistemological 'causality'. And while it is true that for every material effect, a material cause is necessitated (a pot needs its clay and a tree needs its seed), in the case of epistemological 'causality' the cause of 'not knowing' is quite sufficient to account for the effect of misconceiving. Let us examine a common example: When one mistakes a rope for a snake, if one were to enquire as to the 'cause' of that mistake, it would be quite reasonable to reply that "Due to the cause of 'not knowing' that it is a rope, the effect of mistaking it for a snake has taken place. In the same exact way it is perfectly intelligible to assert that due to the 'cause' of not knowing the Self , you have mistaken it for the Not-Self. edmeasure: >From non-existence comes existence, both in the fields of mystical esoterica and in physics. What can seem non-existent are transformational properties that are not obvious in moving from one state of awareness to another state. Actually, there is existence on both sides of the transformation, but the coordinate systems are totally different, just as in fields of porous transcendence versus dense duality. The idea of 'material cause' is not neatly defined, particular when relativity gets into the picture. Cause and effect can and do interchange their roles, dependent on reference planes, both in physics and in metaphysics. For instance, free-will and destiny can appear to be opposing concepts, yet the two may merge to be one and the same, or even flip positions, during glimpses of superposition of the transcendent with activity in duality. Self and Not-Self are distinct enough, but now their causal interrelationship patterns change. stadri: And again: "The Field (Kshetra) and the Field Knower (Kshetrajna) means the Not-Self which is the object (vishaya) , and the Self, which is the Subject (vishayi) respectively; although both of these are of different essential natures, having misconceived (Adhyasa) each for the other, and their respective qualities (Dharmas) mutually in each other, is itself their 'union', their 'association', their 'contact' (Samyoga). For this association, the absence or lack of not distinguishing (Viveka Abava) between the essential nature of the Not- Self (Kshetra Svarupa) and the essential nature of the Self (Keshtrajna Svarupa) IS ITELF THE 'CAUSE'. Just like the the 'contact' of a 'snake' or 'silver' etc., in the rope, shell, etc;-- a 'contact' of the nature of a misconception, owing to want of discrimination between the two." (Gita Bha. 13-26) stadri: In this quotation (which is basically a re-echo of his Adhyasa Bhashaya) Shankara makes it even clearer, if that is possible, that the only reason, or 'cause' for our misconceiving the Self is merely because we no not know the Self. If we in fact knew the Self, it would not be possible to misconceive it as anything else. Just as in the case of the mistaken knowledge about the misconceived 'snake'. That misconception could never arise without there being an absence of knowledge with regard to the fact that all that is there, all that was there, all that will be there, is the rope alone. The 'snake' was no doubt an 'effect' and the absence of knowledge with regard to the rope can be considered to be the 'cause' of the snake, but this cause is not a positively existing material 'thing' some ontological entity needed to account for the effect called a 'misconceived snake'. An important corollary of this illustration of the rope-snake is that once we do get the true knowledge of the rope, the 'objective effect' of the absence of knowledge ie " the 'externally existing snake', as well as the subjective misconception that the rope is a snake, are immediately removed. In the same way, once we get the true knowledge of the Self, the 'objective effect' i.e.: the world of duality, the world of time space and causality, the world of many agents, enjoyers and knowers, as well as the the subjective misconception that what is really the Self alone, is the world of duality, are both immediately removed. Only the Non-Dual Self remains. edmeasure: Both can also stick around together, in spite of advaita seemingly saying different. And I doubt that advaita is, in fact, saying differently, though I am not skilled enough in all the source readings to want to go find 'proof'. I think that there are simply some mismanaged interpretations because the personal experience has been lost for such a long time. Otherwise, why in the world would we still be needing to fathom exactly what Sankara was saying? stadri: However, there is also a significant distinction that should be noted between this worldly illustration about misconception and the correct knowledge regarding the rope-snake, as opposed to that which is being illustrated about the misconception (Avidya) and correct knowledge (Vidya) regarding the Self. Before we misconceived the rope as a snake, we were knowers, and after we determine the true nature of the rope and get its correct knowledge, we still remain as knowers, and there is still the possibility that we could have misconceptions in the future with regard to a number of things, including another rope. But in the case of the knowledge of the Self, once we have determined the true Non Dual nature of the Self, all of duality is removed for good, so that the duality of a knower, his means of knowledge, as well as the objects of knowledge no longer remains, and thus there is no possibility that any future misconceptions could arise with regard to the Self, or anything else that was previously misconceived to be existing as a second something in relation to the Self. Knowership is the outcome of superimposing (adhyasa) the Self and the mind. All talk of means of knowledge and objects of knowledge are dependent on a knowership. And knowereship itself depends on Adhyasa, so once this misconception is sublated by the knowledge of the Non-Dual Self, all the empirical dealings of 'knower', 'means of knowledge', and 'known;(Pramatru, pramana, premeya vyavahara) ceases to be. edmeasure: Again, duality does not need to be removed 'once we have determined the true Non Dual nature of the Self'. They are simply not mutually exclusive. I would take 'knowership' to have to mean 'direct personal experience', but I wonder here if you take it to mean something more in line with a 'logical intellectualization'. stadri: There is also another question that makes its appearance when one takes the position that absence of knowledge of the Self is the cause for misconceiving the Self (The Whence Of Adhyasa): To have an absence of knowledge with regard to some object of knowledge, and to misconceive an object of knowledge as something else, requires either the existence of a mind, or to put it in Fox's term, it requires 'some 'one' who is doing the misconceiving'. It would then mean that that which is superimposed, either the mind, or the individual, both of which are already superimposed on the Self, would be the entities that are doing the superimposition. The superimposed is doing the superimposing? This is the objection: and while at first glance this objection seems valid, because it exposes the defect of an apparent mutual dependency that is being relied upon. The supposed defect of saying that you need a mind to do any type of superimposing, and at the same time asserting that the mind itself is a superimposed thing. But let us examine the rope snake example once again. It is not the case that we first have a misconception that there is a snake, and then after that misconception the snake appears. For the appearance of the snake and the misconception are simultaneous. There is no appearance of a snake without the misconception, and there is no misconception without the appearance of the snake. In the same way there is no Adhyasa without the appearance of the mind, and there is no appearance of the mind without Adhyasa. When Adhyasa is removed the mind is removed, and when there is no mind there is no adhyasa. The same can be said with equal validity regarding the individual; There is no individual without adhyasa and there is no adhyasa without the individual And this in fact is our experience. Whenever the mind makes its appearance it does so with the conviction that Duality is real. With the conviction that it is a knower and there is an independent world which can be known. But when the mind makes its disappearance, as in the state of deep sleep, faint, coma or nirvikalpa samadhi, there is no more any Adhyasa or misconceptions, and also no dualistic dealing of a knower knowing something, no mind and no individuality. edmeasure: That's right. Nothing is left. A philosophy of nothingness. Why waste the time? stadri: And while this answer of Shankaras' to the question 'What is the cause for Adhyasa' is both simple and elegant and in perfect agreement with universal experience, as well as the intelligibility of his claim that this Adhyasa can be totally removed by correct knowledge, this teaching may not feel satisfying to those who have a propensity towards realism and to convoluted hypotheses and unsubstantiated postulates, and would prefer to see the profound teachings of Advaita Vedanta degraded to the level of a speculative theological system that requires of its adherents both blind belief and unquestioning submission to the authority of the Scripture and the Guru. They may instead prefer to dogmatically assert (while no other system of philosophy, darshana, or religion, has ever thought it necessary to put forth such a view) that instead of 'not knowing' being the cause for Adhyasa, there is an indescribable, inconceivable beginingless and endless power, that has the capacity to cover the Absolute and project the world, an ontological entity (not something totally false or unreal), made up of three gunas, and which cannot be described as existent nor non-existent, and which is a Shakti that inheres in the very nature of the Absolute! An unbelievable view that Shankara never even hinted at in all of his writings! So be it. But I must end this post by asking them to sincerely enquire, in their own hearts as seekers of truth, what is the answer to just one question? Forget about what Shankara may or may not have said on the subject, put aside what any 'tradition' or Swami may have declared, and ask yourself: How would it be possible for Knowledge to remove such an entity?? Can knowledge really get rid of some material (Upadana Karana) 'thing' (Bhava Rupa) that actually exists from beginingless time?? Just answer that. If there is a reasonable answer to this question, I eagerly wait to hear about it. edmeasure: Here's an answer though I do not know if you will consider it reasonable. Avidya doesn't so much mean stupid or delinquent in knowledge as it means wrong or incomplete knowledge. For instance, repeating 'I am a jerk' over an over again is incorrect knowledge for getting ahead on things, just as repeating 'I am brahman' over and over again is equally as bad. Either way, they both lead to a sad and unfulfilling end. Both are of avidya. On the other hand, if there were some simple things that might be done which would quickly enhance seeing both the jerks of duality and the brahman nature of Self more vividly, then this could be termed vidyâ, especially in contrast to the avidya just cited. A tiny turn in the use of natural mind can suddenly make one very aware of something altogether new and unifying. The world flips upside down. So be it. Om Tat Sat Atmachaitanya jai guru dev, Edmond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2002 Report Share Posted March 24, 2002 Dear Atmachaitanyaji, namaskaram Many thanks for your truly excellent posting on the origins of Adhyasa! Adi Shankara´s "adhyasa bhashyam" (the introduction to the Brahma Sutra Bhashya) no doubt offers the key to the understanding of Advaita Vedanta as propagated by Shankara. Anyone interested to know about genuine Shankara vedanta would benefit from studying "adhyasa bhashyam". Therefore, I would like to recommend the members of this list to read the following article: http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles/adhyasa_bhashyam.htm This article was written by Sri Subhanu Saxena, a disciple of Sri Aswattha Narayana Avadhani, who in his turn is a disciple of Swami Satchidanandendra Saraswati. In other words, Swami Satchidanandendra is the paramaguru of Sri Subhanu Saxena. Very best wishes Stig Lundgren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2002 Report Share Posted March 24, 2002 Dear Sri Atmachaitanyaji, As usual, I immensely enjoyed reading your post. I was reminded of Swami Chinmayananda's oft quoted statement: "The non apprehension of reality leads to the mis-apprehension of reality" in various parts of your writing. However, a few doubts still linger especially with the chicken and egg problem you have raised towards the end: Non discrimination presupposes an individual with a non discriminating mind and it also presupposes entities real and unreal (ie duality) to be discriminated between. However, aren't we trying to analyse what is even causal to the individual and the mind and the first appearance of duality? ie what is it that brought about the individual/mind/duality to begin with. Vedanta puts forth the causal body model to explain (on the empirical level for the ignorant but seeking intellect) the cause for the individual mind and intellect. However, then, Trigunatmika Maya (and Avidya) are also necessarily brought in, the need for which is what you precisely are questioning. Hence, there is still a gap in my understanding as to why there is a need to question the Maya/Avidya "theory" which conveniently and provisionally explains (to the ignorant but seeking mind!) how the individual/mind/duality arose. Given that Maya (Avidya) does not really exist, only seems to, settles the ignorant questioning intellect while it lasts(!), and also disappears on enquiry/realization, I don't see the major objection accommodating it. regards, --Satyan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 In a message dated 3/25/02 9:29:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, slu writes: > I guess > that other seekers and students of Advaita Vedanta have faced > problems and questions similar to mine. > > Very best wishes > Stig Lundgren > Yes, for sure, and as I see so many highly learned folks here, doing detail after detail in the long complicated history of advaita and related scriptural sources, and still is seen an ever increasing set of perplexities and unknowns, I can only marvel at the on going strength and tenacity of such adherents. Surely, at some point, one throws up one's hands, saying, 'enough', to rather move on by way of the dictums brought forth through personal experience. Is it more important that I clearly understand what Sankara may or may not have said, or meant, ages ago by way of totally foreign culture values, or is it more important to now, at this moment, try to clear up what we can spontaneously see and know, depending among us on huge varied experiences, to fill in the gaps. That is, are we more eager to become absolute masters of historical ideas and presentations or can we allow ourselves to use the tools of our present culture, science, to bring forward more spontaneous experiences that seem to be moving in the direction of enlightenment? jai guru dev, Edmond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 Dear Edmond, how would you explain that what Advaita calls Self is absolute & without objects? Why call it Self? Or would you call it inclusive of relative? I am reminded of the Buddhist anatman position. Col advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote: > You raise so many great points that I just could not resist to join your > conversation.have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 Sri Satyanji wrote, > > Vedanta puts forth the causal body model to explain (on the empirical > level for the ignorant but seeking intellect) the cause for the > individual mind and intellect. However, then, Trigunatmika Maya (and > Avidya) are also necessarily brought in, the need for which is what > you precisely are questioning. > Why do you think "the causal body model" and trigunatmika maya are necessarliy brought in in order to explain the cause of the individual mind and intellect? Adi Shankara certainly didn´t think so. The trigunaatmika maya theory was formulated by vedantins in the post-Shankara era. The same is true also regarding the causal body (kArana Shariira) model. The causal body is mentioned only once in the whole bulk of Shankara´s writings, namely in his bhashya on Isa Upanishad. The post-Shankarites, however, formulated a theory according to which the soul enters a causal body in deep-sleep. And this is not at all what Shankara says regarding the causal body. The post-Shankara vedantins holds the view that the causal body and the trigunaatmika maya are due to the existence of the indivdual (and ignorant) mind. And hence the chicken and egg problem is deluding us again: If the individual mind is due to the causal body etc., then how can the causal body etc. exist due to the individual mind? Personally, I can´t see how adhyasa and avidya could be satisfyingly explained by bringing the post-Shankara theories into the picture. If mUlAvidyA is considered as necessary in order to explain adhyasa, then why don´t we have to explain the cause and existence of mUlAvidyA? And if we somehow tries to explain the cause of mUlAvidyA, then we have to explain the cause and existence of this cause etc. in infinitum. This way of reasoning apparently leads to an infinite regress. > Hence, there is still a gap in my understanding as to why there is a > need to question the Maya/Avidya "theory" which conveniently and > provisionally explains (to the ignorant but seeking mind!) how the > individual/mind/duality arose. Given that Maya (Avidya) does not > really exist, only seems to, settles the ignorant questioning > intellect while it lasts(!), and also disappears on > enquiry/realization, I don't see the major objection accommodating it. > Well, the post-Shankara theories leads to a number of logical problems, already pointed out by Ramanuja in his 1100th century critique of the Advaita school as he knew it (that is, the post-Shankara Advaita school). The critique of Ramanuja only applies to the standpoints of the post-Shankarites, and could have been avoided if the post-Shankarites had remained faithful to the teachings of Adi Shankara himself. And this critique makes way for the rise of the dualist schools. So at least to some degree, the post-Shankara theories where responsible for the forming of rival vedantic schools. However, a bigger problem is the confusion caused by the post-Shankara advaitins among the students and sincere followers of Advaita Vedanta. For instance, when I started out studying vedanta, I was confused by the fact that already a couple of generations after Adi Shankara, subtraditions emerged under the names of Vivarana and Bhamati. I was confused regarding which one of these subtraditions represented the genuine philosophy of Adi Shankara. Did Vivarana or Bhamati follow the tradition of Shankara? A friend of mine (an extremely learned advaitin) had already guided me through the "adhyasa bhashyam" (the introduction to Shankara´s Brahma Sutra Bhashya), and I couldn´t figure out in what way the Vivarana and Bhamati theories corresponded to what Shankara said in "adhyasa bhashyam". I guess that other seekers and students of Advaita Vedanta have faced problems and questions similar to mine. Very best wishes Stig Lundgren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 In a message dated 3/25/02 2:02:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, b.milnes writes: > Ed > > I thought you'd be intrigued and quizzical about this stuff here. Problem > is that from an enlightened (unity consciousness) perspective, the duality > reality doesn't exist, any more than a dream has any existence. There is > only Self = Atman/Brahman and everything else = not-self. Only when we > 'see' that "the world" is projected through Self do we see that all > not-self is illusory. Yes, I think that virtually everyone who takes up this study in any serious manner quickly realizes that not-self is illusory. Now that we have come to this great and most astounding realization(?), I can only comment, so what. What is the value to dwell on this; I can find none. I'm just too busy enjoying life and trying to understand all of the delicacies within the illusion. <This question, "Whence Adhyasa?", why does the common illusion exist? and > "what creates it"?, (why were Adam and Eve thrown from the garden of Eden?) > is an age old one. Well, it is said that realization, play, and joy for the otherwise rather boring and static state of brahman are the why of the common illusion. A few verses of siva sutra brings this out a bit: S3.6 Through surrondings of delusion (illusion) come the attainments. "mohâ varanât siddhih" delusion by-surrondings attainments S3.7 Through mastery over delusion while naturally in the presence of eternal fullness comes the mastery of subtle knowledge. "moha jayâd ananta âbhogât sahaja vidyâ jayah" delusion through-mastery infinite because-of-fullness while-naturally subtle-knowledge mastery S3.8 The waking (state of consciousness) is the second cause (of mastery of subtle knowledge). "jâgrat dvitîya karah" waking second cause S3.9 The self is a dancer. "nartaka âtmâ" dancer self S3.10 The inner self is the stage. "rangah antar âtmâ" stage inner self S3.11 The senses are the spectators. "preksakâni indriyâni" spectators senses S3.12 From the radiance of pure intelligence, sattva is attained. "dhî vasât sattva siddhih" pure-intelligence from-radiance sattva attainment S3.13 Then one's own system of subtle realities (tantra) becomes perfected. "siddhah sva tantra bhâvah" perfected-one one's-own subtle-realities becomes What a magnificent movie here, with never ceasing unfoldments of new subtleties! > I know you have regular direct "experience" of the Self, and enjoy the > movement in and out of transcendental states of consciousness that we > believe will eventually establish permanent liberation. But even that > process is illusory, too... But such a joyful illusionary process. It sure beats being in various states of pain and suffering that are still so prevalent all around us. What are you suggesting, that because process appears to be illusory through various logic sequences, that we should somehow, fade away, drop off the planet, etc? > > I couldn't really grasp this until, by chance, I recently came across and > bought a second hand copy of Tony Parson's "The Open Secret". You can read > excerpts from it at http://www.theopensecret.com/, but I recommend buying a > copy. It, and Tony in person, are as uncompromising as some here appear. > > Atmachaitanya is an erudite scholar, and substantiates his statements with > logical reasoning, even if that appears removed from the blissful insight > that practicing TM can bestow. I await his treatise on "How the Shastra is > the only means of knowledge for the Self" with deep interest. Pure logic is mathematics. Some folks use highly specialized word creations in lieu of using characters from the Greek alphabet. The quest for the logical reasoning is to have a mathematical substantiation of order concerning the various feelings we might have over this and that. For instance, take the title above that you are anxiously waiting for (and that feeling of anxious waiting is indeed the crux of my argument here) "How Such and Such is the ONLY 'means of knowledge' for the Self'. How many statements of the 'ONLY way' have you heard in your life? The 'means of knowledge' fill volumes upon volumes of philosophy by many most learned folks, the endless ontologies and epistemologies, etc. I have no doubt that the writer is expert in the writing and that he/she feels strongly, without doubt, on the subject matter, but indeed, just how will any logical constructions of duality lead to grand experiences of Self. Indeed, Brian, I am surprised that you pose such a question, with all of your experiences and all of that, but perhaps you have not toiled through enough doses of these endless philosophical speculations. What I clearly understand, though, are the joys of anxiously awaiting for anything that seemingly might bring one closer to the experience of Self. The illusory game of logic with words is a momentary joy and fascination offered through the medium of duality. Perhaps, like enjoying a chess game, for instance. There's nothing that we choose to do that is not, somehow, motivated in bringing us closer to a more vivid experience of our very own Self - indeed, an experience of Self while we are simultaneously involved in the activities of duality. Such experiences accelerate the flow of bliss through our self into Self, the atman -- brahman transformations. So in this sense, this book that you await for so dearly will surely provide you with further upliftment, just because of the endearing enthrallment, and for this we again praise the lord. > > > best regards > > Brian > jai guru dev, Edmond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 Ed I thought you'd be intrigued and quizzical about this stuff here. Problem is that from an enlightened (unity consciousness) perspective, the duality reality doesn't exist, any more than a dream has any existence. There is only Self = Atman/Brahman and everything else = not-self. Only when we 'see' that "the world" is projected through Self do we see that all not-self is illusory. This question, "Whence Adhyasa?", why does the common illusion exist? and "what creates it"?, (why were Adam and Eve thrown from the garden of Eden?) is an age old one. I know you have regular direct "experience" of the Self, and enjoy the movement in and out of transcendental states of consciousness that we believe will eventually establish permanent liberation. But even that process is illusory, too... I couldn't really grasp this until, by chance, I recently came across and bought a second hand copy of Tony Parson's "The Open Secret". You can read excerpts from it at http://www.theopensecret.com/, but I recommend buying a copy. It, and Tony in person, are as uncompromising as some here appear. Atmachaitanya is an erudite scholar, and substantiates his statements with logical reasoning, even if that appears removed from the blissful insight that practicing TM can bestow. I await his treatise on "How the Shastra is the only means of knowledge for the Self" with deep interest. In the meantime, I'm going to post that preface (in-toto) that we discussed briefly on your BhagavadGitaLab e-group, as I think it would be interesting to have Maharshi Mahesh Yogi's views on some of these things directly expressed here... best regards Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 It's curious how different folks have different ways of understanding the basic yoga sutras. The gross overview, of course, is rather similar, but the fine structure often implies radically different and far reaching implications. Indeed, it is in the miniscule detail where new delights arise. I see the yoga sutras quoted below more like: Y2.17 The cause (of the pain) is the abolished connection between the Seer and the Seen. "drastr drsyayos samyogo heya hetuh" seer of-seen connection abolish cause Y2.18 Seeing has the character of illumination, activity, and steadiness; it is embodied in the lively senses; its purpose is for experience and liberation. "prakâsa kriyâ sthiti sîlam bhûta indriya âtmakam bhoga apavarga artham drsyam" illumination activity steadiness character lively senses embodied experience liberation purpose seeing Y2.19 The divisions among the gunas range from the specific to the universal and from measurable marks to the undifferentiate. "visesa avisesa linga mâtra alingâni guna parvâni" specific universal mark measurable undifferentiate gunas divisions Y2.20 Though the seer is pure seeing only, thoughts are perceived. "drastâ drsi mâtrah suddha api pratyaya anupasyah" seer seeing only pure though thoughts perceive Y2.21 Thus, the purpose of seeing, in fact, is for self. "tad artha eva drsyasya âtmâ" thus purpose in-fact of-seeing self Y2.22 The seen disappears for one whose purpose is accomplished but it does not disappear for others because of common observance. "krta artham prati nastam apy anastam tad anya sâdhâranatvât" accomplished purpose for disappear but not-disappear it other common-observance Y2.23 Samyoga, union, is the ability to perceive one's own form and is caused by the power, sakti, existing between the seer and the seen. "sva svâmi saktyoh sva rûpa upalabdhi hetuh samyogah" owned owner of-power own form perceived cause union Y2.24 The cause (of samâpatti) is ignorance. "tasya hetur avidyâ" its cause ignorance Y2.25 Liberation is the pure seeing that results from dissolution of the union between seer and seen. Liberation is the dissolution of samâpatti through the removal of ignorance. "tad abhâvât samyoga abhâvo hânam tad drseh kaivalyam" thus from-dissolution union dissolved remove that sheer-seeing liberation Y2.26 The means of removing ignorance is an unwavering vision of discernment. "viveka khyâtir aviplavâ hâna upâyah" discernment vision unwavering removal means Y2.27 The unwavering vision of discernment is sevenfold and the last stage is called insight, prajñâ. "tasya saptadhâ prânta bhûmih prajñâ" of-it sevenfold last stage insight In a message dated 3/25/02 6:35:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, b.milnes writes: > Thanks for the Siva Sutra posts, I enjoyed them. In the meantime, maybe we > can reflect on Patanjali's terse verses: (which seem to me to entirely > consistent with Shankara as quoted by Atmachaitanya: > > 17. drastr drsyayoh samyogo heya hetuh > The cause of this [suffering], which can be avoided, is the confusion > between perceiver and perceived. > 18. prakasa kriyâ sthiti sîlam bhûtendriyât makam bhogâpavargâtham > drsyam > The perceived is in the nature of light, motion and mass, which, > manifesting as the elements and the sense organs give us experience through > which [we may attain] liberation. > 19. visesâvisesa liñgamâtrâliñâni guna parvâni > The levels of the gunas are; gross, subtle, material and unmanifest. > 20. drastâ drsimâtrah suddho 'pi pratyayâ nupasyah > The seer is the sole witness, pure even whilst using the intellect as > the means of perception. > 21. tadartha eva drsyasyâtmâ > Only for the sake of the Self does the perceived world exists. > 22. krtârtham prati nastam apy anastam tad anya sâdhâranatvât > So although it ceases to exist for those who have achieved their goal, > it continues to exist in common for those others [who have not]. > 23. sva svâmi saktyoh svarûpopalabdhi hetuh samyogah > The confusion (of Self and not-self) enables discovery of one's own > true nature and the power of both > 24. tasya hetur avidyâ > Its cause is ignorance [of the Self] > 25. tad abhâvât samyogaâbhâvo hânam tad drseh kaivalyam > Once this disappears so the confusion disappears leaving the liberated > seer > 26. viveka khyâtir aviplavâ hânopâyah > The means of ceasing [ignorance] is constant discrimination [between > the Self and the not-self] > 27. tasya saptadhâ prânta bhûmih prajñâ > For him the last stage of knowledge is sevenfold > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/25/02 2:02:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, > b.milnes@b... writes: > > > > Ed Nice to see you here Ed. I sure found some good friends here over the years. > > > > I thought you'd be intrigued and quizzical about this stuff here. Problem > > is that from an enlightened (unity consciousness) perspective, the duality > > reality doesn't exist, any more than a dream has any existence. There is > > only Self = Atman/Brahman and everything else = not-self. Only when we > > 'see' that "the world" is projected through Self do we see that all > > not-self is illusory. I wonder why you call it not self? Doesn't Brahman include all & nothing? I had written a question to Edmond last evening but was mucking up. My question was .. why does Advaita call 'It' Self when it is not objective & the word self is usually one we think of with images & objects? Is the relative included? Is that why? Why do Buddhists focus on no self? Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 I await his treatise on | "How the Shastra is | > the only means of knowledge for the Self" with deep interest. I think you misconstrue, Ed. I await this with deep (and skeptical) interest. You'd have to go back through (the recent) archives to see those debates. But I think I'm closer to your perspective on this than Atmachaitanya's... By the way, when you said: Pure logic is mathematics. I thought you were about to embark on some beautiful treatise on how maths describes the universe. It's been a fascination of mine that pure mathematics has created apparently abstruse theories, only to find that science has come along later desperately in need of... "Hey presto!" that exact new theorem / concept. Thanks for the Siva Sutra posts, I enjoyed them. In the meantime, maybe we can reflect on Patanjali's terse verses: (which seem to me to entirely consistent with Shankara as quoted by Atmachaitanya: 17. drastr drsyayoh samyogo heya hetuh The cause of this [suffering], which can be avoided, is the confusion between perceiver and perceived. 18. prakasa kriyâ sthiti sîlam bhûtendriyât makam bhogâpavargâtham drsyam The perceived is in the nature of light, motion and mass, which, manifesting as the elements and the sense organs give us experience through which [we may attain] liberation. 19. visesâvisesa liñgamâtrâliñâni guna parvâni The levels of the gunas are; gross, subtle, material and unmanifest. 20. drastâ drsimâtrah suddho 'pi pratyayâ nupasyah The seer is the sole witness, pure even whilst using the intellect as the means of perception. 21. tadartha eva drsyasyâtmâ Only for the sake of the Self does the perceived world exists. 22. krtârtham prati nastam apy anastam tad anya sâdhâranatvât So although it ceases to exist for those who have achieved their goal, it continues to exist in common for those others [who have not]. 23. sva svâmi saktyoh svarûpopalabdhi hetuh samyogah The confusion (of Self and not-self) enables discovery of one's own true nature and the power of both 24. tasya hetur avidyâ Its cause is ignorance [of the Self] 25. tad abhâvât samyogaâbhâvo hânam tad drseh kaivalyam Once this disappears so the confusion disappears leaving the liberated seer 26. viveka khyâtir aviplavâ hânopâyah The means of ceasing [ignorance] is constant discrimination [between the Self and the not-self] 27. tasya saptadhâ prânta bhûmih prajñâ For him the last stage of knowledge is sevenfold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Namaste! I read Shri Atmachaitanyaji's long post several times. Then I went over Shri Dennis Waite's original post (12349 of 18th February 2002) and the several responses it subsequently elicited including mine. I would like to respectfully present the following humble thoughts. I may kindly be forgiven for any ignorance: 1. Neither Shri Waite nor those who initially responded to his post mentioned anything about a moola-avidya with bhava roopa. It was first brought into the discussion by Shri Atmachaitanyaji himself in his post 12380 dated 20th February 2002 in order to validate Douglas Fox's thought that adhyasa cannot be an independent process outside of Brahman. 2. Sizeable portions of Shri Atmachaitanyaji's latest post and previous posts in this chain are devoted to refute this moola-avidya with bhava roopa, which he himself introduced into the discussion, and the post-Sankara advaitins who advocate(d) it, whoever they are. 4. I believe the explanation that he has offered to the conundrum of adhyasa could have stood on its own without all such lengthy refutation. This is not to say that we have not learnt anything from his fantastic expositions. 5. No doubt, Shri Atmachaitanyaji has drawn from several sources and built a brilliant case for his contention that we ourselves are the cause for adhyasa. Reading his post was a real, big, enlightening experience. 6. But after everything, the big question that lingers in mind is if we are not back at square one. Let us look at Shri Atmachaitanyaji's conclusion: "in the sense that: "I don't know the Self, I haven't been able to discriminate the true nature of the Self, and due to this, I may (sic) be considered the `cause' (sic) of superimposition". Don't the words "may" and apostrophized `cause' point at some doubt and uncertainty? 7. By "I" , I am sure he does not mean the Self. This "I" is in the realm of the Unreal Not-Self (to quote his own terminology), because with regard to the Self there is no adhyasa at all. The "I" certainly is the "some `one'" referred to by Shri Atmachaitanyaji towards the end of his post who appears simultaneously with adhyasa. Can this "I" which itself is born within and at the same time as adhyasa probe into the origin of adhyasa and get a satisfactory answer, i.e. can these two `entities" have distinct separate existence (as is our experience) so that at least one of them can enquire into the cause of the other and ultimately conclude that the `enquirer' himself is the cause? To make it short, can two entities originate at the same point in time from the same primal cause? Doesn't it sound like two events at the same point in space and time? Please correct me if I am wrong. 8. How can adhyasa without bhava roopa give rise to an Unreal Not- Self of beings with bhava roopa? How can the bhavaatheetha (beyond bhava), through the agency of something without bhava roopa, give rise to something with bhaava roopa? How can a misconception (immaterial cause) result in a material universe? An epistemological causality with ontological possibilities? These are of course questions which Shri Atmachaitanyaji himself had introduced before to this discussion and still valid. 9. Sankara, as quoted by Shri Atmachaitanyaji, has stated that the misconception with regard to the Self and Non-Self is naisargika (by nature). Isn't this another way of saying that avidya is anaadi? Sankara has said that right in Thathwabodha". Naturally, therefore, we cannot fix the birth date of this natural misconception! 10. Shri Atmachaitanyaji had promised to go through the Martha Doherty's dissertation (recommended by Shri Kathirasanji). He has not mentioned anything in that regard.. 11. Ultimately, I am left with a feeling that Shri Atmachaitanyaji has not taken us any farther than where we had reached under the guidance of our teachers and those who wrote before in this forum other than throwing fresh insights into the rope-snake analogy and postulating the simultaneous origin of "I" and adhyasa to accommodate and affirm Douglas Fox's thought ©. In fact, the gamut of his conclusion rests purely on the latter. 12. To quote Shri Atmachaitanyaji again: "But for you to be sitting, it is necessary that you have accepted the idea that you are either the body or at least the idea that you have a body. For you to be reading this post, the minimum requirement would be to accept the fact that you have the `sense of sight', and for you to evaluate the correctness or falsity of my assertions, it is absolutely necessary that you have a mind. Yet the idea that you have a body, senses or mind can only come about as a result of not discriminating the Subject from the object, the knower and the known, the Self and the not-Self, and it is the misconception (Adhyasa) or mixing up of these two categories into one identified entity that is the root cause for all of Samsara." The sense of body, sight, mind etc. does not occur when an experience goes on. When the experience occurs, there is only the lighting up of the "experiencing". Even the experiencer and the object experienced vanish. I am listening to Jesudas. When "laya" takes place, there is no Jesudas, there is no song, there is no me (i.e. "I- the listener-self-awareness"), there remains only the lighting up of enjoyment. The body, mind, eyes, sense of sight etc. come into the picture only when they are thought of. Then again, in ultimate analysis, there is only their being lighted up as respective objects/thoughts awareness. When such lighting up takes place, at that moment, there is no "I-the-seer-self-awareness". If this analysis is further extended, then the thought that all this duality is a misconception is also a lighting up of awareness when it occurs. The common denominator in all this is the "lighting up" and that exactly is what we are all after. So, endeavour to see the one "lighting up" in all the "lighting-ups" – the misconception vanishes leaving only "LIGHTING UP". 13. Shri Atmachaitanyaji said: "This and only this is the principle meaning of Ignorance according to Shankara,: i.e. Adhyasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and the Not-Self along with the mixing of their distinct qualities on each other." There cannot be any superimposition due to mixing up of the distinct qualities of each other. We already agreed that no qualities exist in the Absolute and from the Absolute perspective. To put it crudely, the Self does not have any qualities at all. The Unreal Not- Self has to be created first of all and then endowed with qualities for its qualitieis to be subjected to " superimposition". 14. The whole argument of the post is built mainly on the rope-snake example, which has its own limitations. The seer of the snake on the rope has definitely had a previous snake experience. Otherwise, the snake qualities will no be "superimposed" on the rope reality. However, in the Self-Not Self confusion, there is no memory or recollection involved. Here, the Self is "manifesting" as the Not Self due to misconception. Does it really matter if this misconception is named avidya, adhyasa or maaya as long as we all, from Shankara down, are prepared to admit that there is a misconception. And whatever this "manifestation" is due to, it is our daily experience that it is "thrigunathmika" with bhava roopa. Then, why take cudgels with the post-Sankara vedantins? Shri Atmachaitanyaji wrote: "This distinction between the Absolute Reality and the "Empirical" viewpoint should be unfailingly borne in mind in order to reconcile the several seeming (sic) self- contradictory statements in Shankara's commentaries." This actually is the crux of the problem. No amount of explanation can completely answer the adhyasa conundrum. Perhaps, mostly it is best understood in a very simple manner by those who intuit on the lines mentioned in (12) above. Shankara is quoted by Shri Atmachaitanyaji as below: "If it should be asked `And to whom does this ignorance belong?" We answer, `To you who are asking this question!' (Objection) `But I have been declared to be the Isvara Himself by the Scriptures! (Reply) If you are thus awakened, then there never was any Ignorance that ever belonged to anyone'." (Sutra Bhasya 4-1-3).". I wish Shankara had added: "Till you are awakened, you will keep asking this question "Whence Ignorance?" and not find any satisfactory answer to it.". May I conclude by quoting the very realisitc Shri Jaishankarji (from Message 12461): "Finally, I want to state that all these things are only prakriyaabhedas (differences in the methodology and teaching) as we all agree on what is to be taught which is `tat tvam asi'". All of you Advaitin brothers and sisters – please forgive me if I have erred anywhere. I am neither trained nor well-read in vedantic logic. I mostly rely on commonsense, which may not be sharp enough and foolproof. Pranams. Madathil Nair advaitin, sophia & ira schepetin <stadri@a...>(Shri Atmachaitanyaji) wrote: > Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, (the rest deleted in order not to choke the "electronic super-highway" as Shri Ram Chandranji calls it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Namsate Edmond, Yes, I agree with you. I too am of the opinion that one should strive to realize the nature of reality. The world of duality is no doubt an illusion, but it is fun. And if you ask me, the goal of all this is to be able to take pure delight in this play while being aware that it is but an illusion. In case you happen to have shiva sutras translated in the format that you posted earlier, could you post a translation of all the sutras on this list. I am particularly interested in the format that you have used, which I copy below: Translation (which always implies an interpretation) Compound sanskrit words split up into distinct sanskrit words Word by word translation of the distinct sanskrit words. Will really appreciate if you could post these. Thanks, Best regards Shrinivas p.s. If time constraints prevent you from posting them all, here is a list of the sutras that I find most challenging: 1. Meaning of matruka in 1.4 2. Meaning of ruma kumari in 1.13 3. Verse 1.16 4. Verses 1.20,1.21,1.22 Have not yet progressed beyond the first chapter .... > S3.6 Through surrondings of delusion (illusion) come the attainments. > "mohâ varanât siddhih" > delusion by-surrondings attainments > > S3.7 Through mastery over delusion while naturally in the presence of > eternal fullness comes the mastery of subtle knowledge. > "moha jayâd ananta âbhogât sahaja vidyâ jayah" > delusion through-mastery infinite because-of-fullness while- naturally > subtle-knowledge mastery > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Dear Sri Madathilnair, Please allow me to respond to some of the points that you raise regarding my answer to the question: Whence Adhyasa? With reference to points 1,2 and 4, in which you indicate that it was I, who introduced this subject of "Bhava Rupa Mula Avidya", I concede the observation. And the reason I did so was that everyone at this Advaitin web site presumably has an interest in Shankaras' Advaita Vedanta. And anyone who is familiar with the literature associated with this tradition has come across this "Root Ignorance" theory. It is to be found not only in works falsely ascribed to Shankara, such as Vivekachudamani, and many other popular 'Prakarana Granthas', but it is a theory which has been developed and expounded upon in many important independent works such as Vidyarayanas' Panchadasi, Prakashatma Yatis' Vivarana, Sri Harshas' Khandana, Citsukas' Tatva Pradipika, and Sarvajnatmans' Sankshepa Sariraka, to mention only a few. But let it not be assumed that this theory of Root Ignorance is merely a historical artifact, and not relevant to the current, modern day Advaita Vedantins, for this very same theory is being propagated, in the name of Shankara, by all the current 'Shankaracharyas' at the main Mutts, as well as the most prominent and popular Swamis now 'representing' the tradition of Shankaras' Advaita. It is because I am convinced that their answer to the question Whence Adhyasa?, is false, opposed to reason and experience, contradicts Shankaras own position on the subject, and degrades the sublime Absolutist teachings of Vedanta to the level of dry dialectics, 'realism', theological dogmatism, the abandonment of Non Duality and finally (and most importantly) the impossibility of putting an end to Samsara once the theory of 'Root Ignorance' is accepted, because Knowledge could never destroy it, that I went to such lengths to refute it.. With reference to the issues you raise in point 8 in which you ask: "How can Adhyasa, without Bhava Rupa, give rise to an Unreal Not-Self of beings with Bhava Rupa?" and again, "How can a misconception (immaterial cause) result in a material Universe?" Let me respond by stating that the 'beings' that appear due to Adhyasa are not existent (Bhava Rupa) at any time, either before their manifestation, during their manifestation, or after their disappearance. The Universe that appears due to misconception is not 'material' but merely an illusion, and its true nature was, is and forever will be, always Atman alone. It is true that there have been a number of 'Advaita Vedantins' who advocated the actual birth of 'illusory objects' and attributed a certain kind of 'existence to them (pratibasika satta), but this is totally foreign to Shankaras declarations and to common sense. When we mistake a rope for a snake, that snake never had any existence of its own. And after we correct this misconception by getting the correct knowledge of the rope, no actually existing snake of any kind was ever destroyed. We all take the position that there never was a snake in all the three periods of time, past present and future. It should be clearly remembered that according to Shankara,''an appearance is something which seems to exist, but which in truth never existed at all'. In addition, Shankara points out the indisputable fact that no appearance could ever manifest without there being an actually existent substratum or basis for that appearance. The snake could not appear without the existence of a rope, and the appearance of the universe could not manifest without there being the Self as its underlying reality (adhistana). The point that you make in number13, is the outcome of a total confusion regarding Shankaras position about Adhyasa. You state" There cannot be any superimposition due to mixing up of the distinct qualities of each other. We already agreed that no qualities exist in the Absolute, and from the Absolute perspective. To put it crudely, the Self does not have any qualities at all." Dear Madatilnair, what I 'agreed' to was that in the Absolute or from the Absolute perspective there never was, is or will be any Ignorance or Superimposition, nor its removal. However for the sake of discriminating between the Self and the Not-Self, Shankara is not at all reluctant to say that the 'qualities' of Consciousness and Being belong to the Self alone and never to the Not-Self. In his Adhyasa Bhasya he describes the true 'I', the Subject (vishayi) as Chitatmika (Of the nature of Consciousness). To say Consciousness and Existence are qualities of the Self is like saying that heat and light are the 'qualities of fire. It is their very nature (Svarupa). So in this context, the word 'quality' does not refer to some attribute that belongs to something of which it could dispense with and still remain that thing. It refers to the very nature of the Self, in the same way that it is the very nature of fire to have heat and light. Unlike the 'qualities' of beauty and ugliness or intelligence, with reference to a person who could continue to be that very same person even if those attributes were to change. It is the 'qualities' of Consciousness and Existence that are falsely attributed (Adhyasa) to the Non-Self that makes everyone think that their bodies, senses and mind are conscious and that they exist. You state in 14,that "The whole argument of the post is built mainly on the rope-snake example, which has its own limitations". But this is not my example, it is Shankaras. He uses this example throughout his commentaries repeatedly, and he does so because it suits his purpose quite well. It is an illustration from worldly life that we are all familiar with and which demonstrates that people do mistake one thing for another, that the mistaken 'thing' never existed where it was thought to have existed and that after the correct knowledge of the thing the appearance is sublated . As to the limitation of this illustration, in that it does not match up exactly with what is being illustrated, Shankara admits to the defect, but points out that if the illustration was exactly the same as what was being illustrated, it would merely be a tautology, and would no longer serve as a teaching device. And in conclusion, I would like to respond to your final summation, which accurately portrays an opinion that is shared by most Indian pundits and Western Indologists. You state: "May I conclude by quoting the very realistic Shri Jaishankarji…" Finally I want to state that all these things are only prakriyaabedhas (Differences in the methodology and teaching) as we all agree on what is to be taught which is 'tat tvam asi'." I can only say that I take this position be a great disservice to the contributions that was made by Shankara regarding the clarification of important Vedantic concepts, in clarifying, for the first time in Vedantic literature, what exactly is the nature of Ignorance, and indicating exactly what were the defects in the other Advaitic schools, (despite the fact that they all taught 'tat tvam asi', and that were prevalent during his times and before him), so that the sincere seekers of truth would not be lead astray. Why does Shankara refute the Karmajnana Samuchya vadins (the theory that by a combination of actions and knowledge one attained moksha)? They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam asi'. And why did he refute the prasankyana vadins (those who held that after the attainment of knowledge, that knowledge had to be repeated to make it strong enough to ward off the old vasanas. They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam asi' And why did Shankara refute the notion that Nirvikalpa Samadhi was the means to the knowledge of the Self, even though many modern day and ancient Vedantins hold such a view and all teach 'tat tvam asi'? Who were the "Vritikaras' (previous commentators) that Shankara examines in his Gita commentary and refutes mercilessly calling them "idiots"(Murkaha), despite the fact that they were Advaitins all teaching 'tat tvam asi'. And how is it that Suresvaracharya could compose 14000 verses for his Brihidaranyaka Vartica, the bulk of which contains an examination and ruthless refutation of other Advaitins (at least nine schools have been identified by Mahadeven in his English translation of the Sambanda Vartica, all of whom adopted different 'methodologies and teachings' (Prakriya bhedas) from those of Shankara and Suresvara) even though they all taught 'tat tvam asi'? Shanakra in his Gita commentary, chap 13.says there is only one method of teaching. He calls it Adhyapropa Apavada (The Method of Deliberate Superimposition and Rescission), He quotes ancient Vedantins as being knowers of this methodology, and concludes by stating that "though a man be learned in all the scriptures, should he be bereft of this traditional method of teaching (Adhyaropa Apavada) HE SHOULD BE DISREGARDED LIKE A FOOL.LIKE THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND" Hari Om Atmachaitanya advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote: > Namaste! > > > Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, (the rest > deleted in order not to choke the "electronic super-highway" as Shri > Ram Chandranji calls it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Hari Om !! Sri Atmachaitanya, would you please clarify the following: 1. Is it your position that Avidya is Adhyasa and, Avidya is not Maya; or is it more than that ? 2. After accepting that Avidya does not mean or equate to Maya, do you still disagree with the definition of Trigunatmika Maya for the cause of the creation of the Universe. Here I simply mean the evolution of elements and the universe of objects and the three Gunas etc. Is there any problem in this regard, based on original Sankara's teachings about what Maya is ? 3. How this controversy should effect a Sadhak in his/her sadhana and hence realisation? Kindly clarify. Om Namo Narayanaya !! Srikrishna Is it only "Avidya" that is mis-interpreted by the later day Advaitins or even the definition of Maya as Trigunatimika as the cause of advaitin, "atmachaitanya108" <stadri@a...> wrote: > Dear Sri Madathilnair, > > Please allow me to respond to some of the points that you raise > regarding my answer to the question: Whence Adhyasa? > > With reference to points 1,2 and 4, in which you indicate that it was > I, who introduced this subject of "Bhava Rupa Mula Avidya", I concede > the observation. And the reason I did so was that everyone at this > Advaitin web site presumably has an interest in Shankaras' Advaita > Vedanta. And anyone who is familiar with the literature associated > with this tradition has come across this "Root Ignorance" theory. It > is to be found not only in works falsely ascribed to Shankara, such as > Vivekachudamani, and many other popular 'Prakarana Granthas', but it > is a theory which has been developed and expounded upon in many > important independent works such as Vidyarayanas' Panchadasi, > Prakashatma Yatis' Vivarana, Sri Harshas' Khandana, Citsukas' Tatva > Pradipika, and Sarvajnatmans' Sankshepa Sariraka, to mention only a > few. But let it not be assumed that this theory of Root Ignorance is > merely a historical artifact, and not relevant to the current, modern > day Advaita Vedantins, for this very same theory is being propagated, > in the name of Shankara, by all the current 'Shankaracharyas' at the > main Mutts, as well as the most prominent and popular Swamis now > 'representing' the tradition of Shankaras' Advaita. It is because I > am convinced that their answer to the question Whence Adhyasa?, is > false, opposed to reason and experience, contradicts Shankaras own > position on the subject, and degrades the sublime Absolutist teachings > of Vedanta to the level of dry dialectics, 'realism', theological > dogmatism, the abandonment of Non Duality and finally (and most > importantly) the impossibility of putting an end to Samsara once the > theory of 'Root Ignorance' is accepted, because Knowledge could never > destroy it, that I went to such lengths to refute it.. > > With reference to the issues you raise in point 8 in which you ask: > "How can Adhyasa, without Bhava Rupa, give rise to an Unreal Not- Self > of beings with Bhava Rupa?" and again, "How can a misconception > (immaterial cause) result in a material Universe?" Let me respond by > stating that the 'beings' that appear due to Adhyasa are not existent > (Bhava Rupa) at any time, either before their manifestation, during > their manifestation, or after their disappearance. The Universe that > appears due to misconception is not 'material' but merely an illusion, > and its true nature was, is and forever will be, always Atman alone. > It is true that there have been a number of 'Advaita Vedantins' who > advocated the actual birth of 'illusory objects' and attributed a > certain kind of 'existence to them (pratibasika satta), but this is > totally foreign to Shankaras declarations and to common sense. When we > mistake a rope for a snake, that snake never had any existence of its > own. And after we correct this misconception by getting the correct > knowledge of the rope, no actually existing snake of any kind was ever > destroyed. We all take the position that there never was a snake in > all the three periods of time, past present and future. It should be > clearly remembered that according to Shankara,''an appearance is > something which seems to exist, but which in truth never existed at > all'. In addition, Shankara points out the indisputable fact that no > appearance could ever manifest without there being an actually > existent substratum or basis for that appearance. The snake could not > appear without the existence of a rope, and the appearance of the > universe could not manifest without there being the Self as its > underlying reality (adhistana). > > > The point that you make in number13, is the outcome of a total > confusion regarding Shankaras position about Adhyasa. You state" There > cannot be any superimposition due to mixing up of the distinct > qualities of each other. We already agreed that no qualities exist in > the Absolute, and from the Absolute perspective. To put it crudely, > the Self does not have any qualities at all." Dear Madatilnair, what > I 'agreed' to was that in the Absolute or from the Absolute > perspective there never was, is or will be any Ignorance or > Superimposition, nor its removal. However for the sake of > discriminating between the Self and the Not-Self, Shankara is not at > all reluctant to say that the 'qualities' of Consciousness and Being > belong to the Self alone and never to the Not-Self. In his Adhyasa > Bhasya he describes the true 'I', the Subject (vishayi) as Chitatmika > (Of the nature of Consciousness). To say Consciousness and Existence > are qualities of the Self is like saying that heat and light are the > 'qualities of fire. It is their very nature (Svarupa). So in this > context, the word 'quality' does not refer to some attribute that > belongs to something of which it could dispense with and still remain > that thing. It refers to the very nature of the Self, in the same way > that it is the very nature of fire to have heat and light. Unlike the > 'qualities' of beauty and ugliness or intelligence, with reference to > a person who could continue to be that very same person even if those > attributes were to change. It is the 'qualities' of Consciousness and > Existence that are falsely attributed (Adhyasa) to the Non-Self that > makes everyone think that their bodies, senses and mind are conscious > and that they exist. > > You state in 14,that "The whole argument of the post is built mainly > on the rope-snake example, which has its own limitations". But this is > not my example, it is Shankaras. He uses this example throughout his > commentaries repeatedly, and he does so because it suits his purpose > quite well. It is an illustration from worldly life that we are all > familiar with and which demonstrates that people do mistake one thing > for another, that the mistaken 'thing' never existed where it was > thought to have existed and that after the correct knowledge of the > thing the appearance is sublated . As to the limitation of this > illustration, in that it does not match up exactly with what is being > illustrated, Shankara admits to the defect, but points out that if the > illustration was exactly the same as what was being illustrated, it > would merely be a tautology, and would no longer serve as a teaching > device. > > And in conclusion, I would like to respond to your final summation, > which accurately portrays an opinion that is shared by most Indian > pundits and Western Indologists. You state: "May I conclude by quoting > the very realistic Shri Jaishankarji…" Finally I want to state that > all these things are only prakriyaabedhas (Differences in the > methodology and teaching) as we all agree on what is to be taught > which is 'tat tvam asi'." > > I can only say that I take this position be a great disservice to the > contributions that was made by Shankara regarding the clarification of > important Vedantic concepts, in clarifying, for the first time in > Vedantic literature, what exactly is the nature of Ignorance, and > indicating exactly what were the defects in the other Advaitic > schools, (despite the fact that they all taught 'tat tvam asi', and > that were prevalent during his times and before him), so that the > sincere seekers of truth would not be lead astray. > Why does Shankara refute the Karmajnana Samuchya vadins (the theory > that by a combination of actions and knowledge one attained moksha)? > They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam asi'. And why did he refute > the prasankyana vadins (those who held that after the attainment of > knowledge, that knowledge had to be repeated to make it strong enough > to ward off the old vasanas. They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam > asi' And why did Shankara refute the notion that Nirvikalpa Samadhi > was the means to the knowledge of the Self, even though many modern > day and ancient Vedantins hold such a view and all teach 'tat tvam > asi'? Who were the "Vritikaras' (previous commentators) that Shankara > examines in his Gita commentary and refutes mercilessly calling them > "idiots"(Murkaha), despite the fact that they were Advaitins all > teaching 'tat tvam asi'. And how is it that Suresvaracharya could > compose 14000 verses for his Brihidaranyaka Vartica, the bulk of which > contains an examination and ruthless refutation of other Advaitins (at > least nine schools have been identified by Mahadeven in his English > translation of the Sambanda Vartica, all of whom adopted different > 'methodologies and teachings' (Prakriya bhedas) from those of Shankara > and Suresvara) even though they all taught 'tat tvam asi'? > > Shanakra in his Gita commentary, chap 13.says there is only one method > of teaching. He calls it Adhyapropa Apavada (The Method of > Deliberate Superimposition and Rescission), He quotes ancient > Vedantins as being knowers of this methodology, and concludes by > stating that "though a man be learned in all the scriptures, should he > be bereft of this traditional method of teaching (Adhyaropa Apavada) > HE SHOULD BE DISREGARDED LIKE A FOOL.LIKE THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND" > > Hari Om > Atmachaitanya > > > > advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote: > > Namaste! > > > > > > Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, (the rest > > deleted in order not to choke the "electronic super-highway" as Shri > > Ram Chandranji calls it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Namaste Atmachaitanyaji You mentioned: "It is because I am convinced that their answer to the question Whence Adhyasa?, is false, opposed to reason and experience, contradicts Shankaras own position on the subject, and degrades the sublime Absolutist teachings of Vedanta to the level of dry dialectics, 'realism', theological dogmatism, the abandonment of Non Duality and finally (and most importantly) the impossibility of putting an end to Samsara once the theory of 'Root Ignorance' is accepted, because Knowledge could never destroy it, that I went to such lengths to refute it." K: None of the present traditional teachers have abandoned non-duality by postulating a mula avidya. At least I am yet to know of one. Although they might disagree on matters concerning Nirvikalpa Samadhi or even shastra pramana but everyone accepts that there is One unchanging, eternal Consciousness. I am also not convinced with your explanation that the acceptance of mulavidya can't put an end to samsara. When Atma alone is given the status of Satyam and when everything else is given the status of Mithya (including mula avidya), what problem will there be for you with regards removal of Samsara. I think you are unnecassarily confusing yourself by accepting mula avidya to be Satyam..sort of a parallel reality to Atma. Although it may exist in the waking, dreaming and the deep sleep state, but it is NOT invariable (or changeless) . Ignorance varies with the three states therefore making it also mithya. So what's the problem? When asked by Nairji, "How can Adhyasa, without Bhava Rupa, give rise to an Unreal Not-Self of beings with Bhava Rupa?" & "How can a misconception (immaterial cause) result in a material Universe?", you (atmachaitanya) have conveniently answered the question by shifting the standpoint of vyvaharika to paramarthika. As anyone would know, that everything can be resolved at the paramarthika level (in fact there is nothing to be resolved) BUT the question asked by Nairji is from the standpoint of vyavaharika alone. So is this an attempt to evade the question? You have mentioned that Shankara has explicitly claimed that no one will be able to know the teachings or the method without knowing the tradition. Therefore, we know that this methodology is passed down from time immemorial. But I am particularly interested and curious to know who is the link to this ancient sampradaya before your own Guru? Who is the teacher of your Guru who forms a part of this teaching tradition? Then only can I accept the teachings of yours as authentic. With luv, Kathi > > atmachaitanya108 [sMTP:stadri] > Wednesday, March 27, 2002 7:59 AM > advaitin > Re: Whence Adhyasa > > Dear Sri Madathilnair, > > Please allow me to respond to some of the points that you raise > regarding my answer to the question: Whence Adhyasa? > > With reference to points 1,2 and 4, in which you indicate that it was > I, who introduced this subject of "Bhava Rupa Mula Avidya", I concede > the observation. And the reason I did so was that everyone at this > Advaitin web site presumably has an interest in Shankaras' Advaita > Vedanta. And anyone who is familiar with the literature associated > with this tradition has come across this "Root Ignorance" theory. It > is to be found not only in works falsely ascribed to Shankara, such as > Vivekachudamani, and many other popular 'Prakarana Granthas', but it > is a theory which has been developed and expounded upon in many > important independent works such as Vidyarayanas' Panchadasi, > Prakashatma Yatis' Vivarana, Sri Harshas' Khandana, Citsukas' Tatva > Pradipika, and Sarvajnatmans' Sankshepa Sariraka, to mention only a > few. But let it not be assumed that this theory of Root Ignorance is > merely a historical artifact, and not relevant to the current, modern > day Advaita Vedantins, for this very same theory is being propagated, > in the name of Shankara, by all the current 'Shankaracharyas' at the > main Mutts, as well as the most prominent and popular Swamis now > 'representing' the tradition of Shankaras' Advaita. It is because I > am convinced that their answer to the question Whence Adhyasa?, is > false, opposed to reason and experience, contradicts Shankaras own > position on the subject, and degrades the sublime Absolutist teachings > of Vedanta to the level of dry dialectics, 'realism', theological > dogmatism, the abandonment of Non Duality and finally (and most > importantly) the impossibility of putting an end to Samsara once the > theory of 'Root Ignorance' is accepted, because Knowledge could never > destroy it, that I went to such lengths to refute it.. > > With reference to the issues you raise in point 8 in which you ask: > "How can Adhyasa, without Bhava Rupa, give rise to an Unreal Not-Self > of beings with Bhava Rupa?" and again, "How can a misconception > (immaterial cause) result in a material Universe?" Let me respond by > stating that the 'beings' that appear due to Adhyasa are not existent > (Bhava Rupa) at any time, either before their manifestation, during > their manifestation, or after their disappearance. The Universe that > appears due to misconception is not 'material' but merely an illusion, > and its true nature was, is and forever will be, always Atman alone. > It is true that there have been a number of 'Advaita Vedantins' who > advocated the actual birth of 'illusory objects' and attributed a > certain kind of 'existence to them (pratibasika satta), but this is > totally foreign to Shankaras declarations and to common sense. When we > mistake a rope for a snake, that snake never had any existence of its > own. And after we correct this misconception by getting the correct > knowledge of the rope, no actually existing snake of any kind was ever > destroyed. We all take the position that there never was a snake in > all the three periods of time, past present and future. It should be > clearly remembered that according to Shankara,''an appearance is > something which seems to exist, but which in truth never existed at > all'. In addition, Shankara points out the indisputable fact that no > appearance could ever manifest without there being an actually > existent substratum or basis for that appearance. The snake could not > appear without the existence of a rope, and the appearance of the > universe could not manifest without there being the Self as its > underlying reality (adhistana). > > > The point that you make in number13, is the outcome of a total > confusion regarding Shankaras position about Adhyasa. You state" There > cannot be any superimposition due to mixing up of the distinct > qualities of each other. We already agreed that no qualities exist in > the Absolute, and from the Absolute perspective. To put it crudely, > the Self does not have any qualities at all." Dear Madatilnair, what > I 'agreed' to was that in the Absolute or from the Absolute > perspective there never was, is or will be any Ignorance or > Superimposition, nor its removal. However for the sake of > discriminating between the Self and the Not-Self, Shankara is not at > all reluctant to say that the 'qualities' of Consciousness and Being > belong to the Self alone and never to the Not-Self. In his Adhyasa > Bhasya he describes the true 'I', the Subject (vishayi) as Chitatmika > (Of the nature of Consciousness). To say Consciousness and Existence > are qualities of the Self is like saying that heat and light are the > 'qualities of fire. It is their very nature (Svarupa). So in this > context, the word 'quality' does not refer to some attribute that > belongs to something of which it could dispense with and still remain > that thing. It refers to the very nature of the Self, in the same way > that it is the very nature of fire to have heat and light. Unlike the > 'qualities' of beauty and ugliness or intelligence, with reference to > a person who could continue to be that very same person even if those > attributes were to change. It is the 'qualities' of Consciousness and > Existence that are falsely attributed (Adhyasa) to the Non-Self that > makes everyone think that their bodies, senses and mind are conscious > and that they exist. > > You state in 14,that "The whole argument of the post is built mainly > on the rope-snake example, which has its own limitations". But this is > not my example, it is Shankaras. He uses this example throughout his > commentaries repeatedly, and he does so because it suits his purpose > quite well. It is an illustration from worldly life that we are all > familiar with and which demonstrates that people do mistake one thing > for another, that the mistaken 'thing' never existed where it was > thought to have existed and that after the correct knowledge of the > thing the appearance is sublated . As to the limitation of this > illustration, in that it does not match up exactly with what is being > illustrated, Shankara admits to the defect, but points out that if the > illustration was exactly the same as what was being illustrated, it > would merely be a tautology, and would no longer serve as a teaching > device. > > And in conclusion, I would like to respond to your final summation, > which accurately portrays an opinion that is shared by most Indian > pundits and Western Indologists. You state: "May I conclude by quoting > the very realistic Shri Jaishankarji..." Finally I want to state that > all these things are only prakriyaabedhas (Differences in the > methodology and teaching) as we all agree on what is to be taught > which is 'tat tvam asi'." > > I can only say that I take this position be a great disservice to the > contributions that was made by Shankara regarding the clarification of > important Vedantic concepts, in clarifying, for the first time in > Vedantic literature, what exactly is the nature of Ignorance, and > indicating exactly what were the defects in the other Advaitic > schools, (despite the fact that they all taught 'tat tvam asi', and > that were prevalent during his times and before him), so that the > sincere seekers of truth would not be lead astray. > Why does Shankara refute the Karmajnana Samuchya vadins (the theory > that by a combination of actions and knowledge one attained moksha)? > They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam asi'. And why did he refute > the prasankyana vadins (those who held that after the attainment of > knowledge, that knowledge had to be repeated to make it strong enough > to ward off the old vasanas. They were Advaitins who taught 'tat tvam > asi' And why did Shankara refute the notion that Nirvikalpa Samadhi > was the means to the knowledge of the Self, even though many modern > day and ancient Vedantins hold such a view and all teach 'tat tvam > asi'? Who were the "Vritikaras' (previous commentators) that Shankara > examines in his Gita commentary and refutes mercilessly calling them > "idiots"(Murkaha), despite the fact that they were Advaitins all > teaching 'tat tvam asi'. And how is it that Suresvaracharya could > compose 14000 verses for his Brihidaranyaka Vartica, the bulk of which > contains an examination and ruthless refutation of other Advaitins (at > least nine schools have been identified by Mahadeven in his English > translation of the Sambanda Vartica, all of whom adopted different > 'methodologies and teachings' (Prakriya bhedas) from those of Shankara > and Suresvara) even though they all taught 'tat tvam asi'? > > Shanakra in his Gita commentary, chap 13.says there is only one method > of teaching. He calls it Adhyapropa Apavada (The Method of > Deliberate Superimposition and Rescission), He quotes ancient > Vedantins as being knowers of this methodology, and concludes by > stating that "though a man be learned in all the scriptures, should he > be bereft of this traditional method of teaching (Adhyaropa Apavada) > HE SHOULD BE DISREGARDED LIKE A FOOL.LIKE THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND" > > Hari Om > Atmachaitanya > > > > advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote: > > Namaste! > > > > > > Dear Dennis, and all others interested in this subject, (the rest > > deleted in order not to choke the "electronic super-highway" as Shri > > Ram Chandranji calls it.) > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Dear Shri Atmachaitanyaji, I am indeed very grateful to you for your clarifications. At the outset, permit me to make the following clear: 1.I am a grihastha who dabble in Vedanta off and on. My arguments may, therefore, have pitfalls and lack continuity of thought and the exact logic pertinent to the points under discussion. 2. However, I would like to learn and that is exactly why I am making impatient attempts to present my points of view. 3. Even amidst my responsibilities as a householder, I do contemplate over vedantic issues and teachings most of the time. This practice has produced some insights (on vedantic teachings) of an experiential nature. Mostly, I base my points of view on such insights, which practice, I admit, has its own benefits, as well as dangers due to being subjective. 4. Before I began writing through this Advaitin forum in January this year, I had never expressed myself in print at any time, although talking Vedanta ad infinitum to my bored family and friends has quite some time been my intense passion. I am, therefore, a simple freshman. Kindly, therefore, grant me the benefit of your understanding. Let us now get down to the business in hand. (a) I have nothing to say about your raison d'etre for refuting the Moola Avidya vadins. I don't think I am competent enough, at the moment, to defend either point of view except that I can only acknowledge the existence of ignorance in the form of misconception. (b) Thanks for elaborating on Sankara's position about adhyasa. I admit my misunderstanding and would like to confess that I have not studied or even read adhyasa bhasya or an authentic interpretation of it excepting that I have heard passing references to adhyasa in discourses given by different teachers. © Your explanation has triggered new insights in this regard and, in this context, I am rather disappointed that you did not dwell on my point No. 12. Your reason may possibly be that it was slightly outside the main track. To recapitulate, was it not the chitatmika nature of the Self that I (unknowingly) endeavoured to articulate in point No. 12? If yes, you have granted Sankara's authority to my thoughts. In fact, I would now like to expand my point of view. (d) I said before that the one and only "LIGHTING UP" could be appreciated by recognizing that It is the common denominator of all "lighting ups". To look at it another way, each individual "lighting up" of awareness can be endlessly reduced (theoretically at least) to its `very basics'. Fundamentally, the big LIGHTING UP can be seen to remain at the bottom of everything as the essential Substratum, which is nothing but the chitatmika Consciousness. With such reduction to fundamental levels, a `tending' towards qualitylessness and formlessness can also be seen to occur. This is applicable to everything perceived - objects, thoughts, ideas, concepts, experiences, etc. etc. pointing to the fact that fundamentally all things seen differently in our ordinary vyavahara (prathibhasathmika also included) are just the 'Same'. (d) In this analysis and in point (12) of my previous message, is it not important to note that the principle of Unity has been recognized and appreciated without bringing entities like mind, intellect etc. etc., which shine after chitatmika Consciousness? I admit that it is very necessary to talk about mind, intellect etc. to elucidate vedantic principles or, as I would like to put it, to systematize "Ignorance" . Beyond that, do we have to permit them to cloud, confound and impede our vision of the Absolute which can be demonstrated to exist even without their assistance as explained above? (e) Besides, if the Truth is appreciated and the misconception about it is realized on the above lines, then is there a need to look where that misconception is occurring? It can't be occurring anywhere other than to the "enquirer" himself/herself as you have concluded or as Sankara answered: "To you who are asking this question". (f) Disappointingly again, you seem to have overlooked my point No.7. That is the heart of the matter – your ultimate logic for the above conclusion. To rephrase my question more clearly, how can the cause or origin or whence of "something" come into being at the same instant as that "something"? In the rope-snake example the misconception is the snake itself, i.e. the misconception is not the "whence" of the snake or vice versa. But, in individual (mind) – adhyasa issue there are two distinct entities which are essentially not the same. (g) Till this question is convincingly answered, I, with my limited intellectual resources, have no other alternative but to move with the crowd, which may or may not include some Moola Avidya vadins too. And that cannot be a disservice to Shankara! As I mentioned above, I acknowledge the existence of a misconception, I know I am the `ignorant' one and Sankara is my authority thereto. I hope my situation will be appreciated. Best regards, Madathil Nair advaitin, "atmachaitanya108" <stadri@a...> wrote: > Dear Sri Madathilnair, > > Please allow me to respond to some of the points that you raise > regarding my answer to the question: Whence Adhyasa? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Many thanks to Sri Atmachaitanya for the brilliantly lucid exposition on this topic. I may have waited several weeks for a satisfactory explanation to this apparently insoluble problem but it was worth it! I certainly feel happy with this way of looking at things and it leaves one's faith in the philosophy (as propounded by Shankara) unshaken. I am indebted. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Dear K Kathirasan NCS, If you really take the position that Mula Avidya (Root Ignorance- An Avidya that is completely different from the three well known categories of merely 'Not Knowing' 'Doubting' and 'Misconceiving') is Mithya (false) then we have no fundamental disagreement Beause if it is false then it can be said to be removed by knowledge.. But please take note, that if it is false, then it too must be the result of a Misconception (Adhyasa). The 'false snake' cannot appear without the misconception.. It must be Avidya Kalpita, Imagined by Ignorance. We all see a world. We all feel that it must exist in some manner, we therefore imagine a cause for that world, a cause that actually exists, or exists in a peculiar way, such as 'neither existent nor non-existent', and that must somehow cover Brahman and result in the world that we see. But the world and its inferred cause are both superimpositions on the Self. Just like the misconceived snake and its 'cause', 'the inferred mother of that snake. When we realize there never was a 'snake' what happens to the 'inferred mother', which was the 'cause' of that snake? When we realize that there never was any duality, or world, what will happen to that imagined 'cause' for the supposed Duality or world? They were both just Misconceptions. Superimposition (Adhyasa) has to be in full play to even see a world or imagine its cause. Cause and Effect only arise with the appearance of Duality and Time (In Duality the cause must come first, the effect after). Duality is a Superimposition on the Self, a 'wrong' knowledge regarding the Self, a 'misconception' about the Self. It is knowledge of the Self that can destroy this 'Misconception' (Adhyasa) about the Non-Dual Self . Knowledge can do nothing more, and nothing more need be done. (This is the view of deliberate Superimposition, Adhyaropa, the Empirical View). When it is understood that there is only the One Self Without a Second, then we realize that no one ever had any misconception, and no knowledge was ever needed to remove that misconception. All of this Avidya and Vidya has also been the outcome of a misconception. There has always been only the Self (This is the Apavada in the methodology of Vedanta, even the teachings of Vidya and Avidya are rescinded in the end, Not This, Not This). As Advaitins, we certainly both agree that Ultimately there never was any Ignorance at all. Not that Ignorance really existed from beginingless time and really inhered in the Absolute.And that we, somehow, have to really remove it to get free. If you try to clarify your position by stating that even in your theory Root Ignorance is also false from the Absolute view point, and that it is only from the empirical view that we put forth this teaching. . Then I reply that our disagreement is, of course, only from the empirical point of view.I am not shifting viewpoints and then merely dismissing Madatilnairs' objections from the absolute point of view. It is from the empirical view point that I answered the objections. It is from the Empirical view point that we disagree about the nature of Ignorance as well as it cause. I hold that from the empirical point of view, to teach that: 'Due to 'not knowing the Self' we have misconceived it as the false Not-Self', is a teaching that points out a universal fact that is verifiable by all in there own experience. We have all mixed the Witness with the Witnessed; even this Vedantic teaching is proceeding due to this most basic misconception (Adhyasa) of taking the Witness for the Witnessed. For without misconceiving that we are the body senses and mind (which experience can verify as a misconception, for in experience, the body senses and mind are forever the "Witnessed" and never the Witness), we can't be 'knowers', we can't be ignorant of anything, including the the Self Evident, Self Manifest, Self, we cant seek out a Guru who is different from us and who will teach us the correct knowledge of the Self. All this proceeds on this fundamental Misconception (this I take to be Shankaras teaching from the empirical point of view, the Adhyaropa, 'Deliberate Superimposition' point of view). As opposed to the 'empirical point of view' in which a theory is put forth, (totally divorced from any common experience that could be relied upon to confirm it) in which we postulate a begingingless positive cause (not merely imagined, but an existing Indescribable, Anirvachiniya, ' empirical thing' that is the 'cause' for both the appearance of duality and the imagination, misconception (Adhyasa) about it - for MulaAvidya Vadins misconception is caused, it is the effect of this inert twofold power to it cover Reality (avarana Shakti) and project the world (vikhepa Shakti), a power that projects not only the world but all the individuals in the world, who each have their own personal misconceptions, and it is not merely 'not knowing' that makes misconceptions appear). A Bhava Rupa 'power'. that we have to somehow 'destroy' or remove by knowledge. How exactly Knowledge accomplishes this 'empirical' feat is never made clear. And if knowledge could ever get rid of this Anadi Tri Guna Atmika Prikriti (the beginingless primal nature which is made up of three Gunas and which is a synonym for Mula Avidya), then liberation would be both an effect and an event in time, and thus non-eternal. Hari Om Atmachaitanya P.S. I would like to extend my thanks to all the participants in this discussion about the 'Whence of Adhayasa'. To Stig Lundgren for making available that fantastic article on Adhyasa Bhasya, (it should be made mandatory reading for all those who are serious about trying to get to the heart of Shankaras Advaita), and especially to those who have objected and will continue to object to the views I have presented, as well as to those who moderate and maintain this Advaitin web site. It has allowed me the opportunity to articulate and ponder and be challenged over this profound and subtle subject of Adhyasa and its 'cause'. Where else could one find a forum whose stated intent is to discuss primarily Shanakras' Advaita Vedanta Philosophy and Practice, and its related issues. I hope that the pedantic and aggressive style of my posts haven't overly offended those who are also analyzing and trying to understand these very same issues. Each inquirer will ultimately decide for himself on the "Whence of Adhyasa" one way or the other, or suspend judgment or decide that it really isn't that important and move on to other things, perhaps thanking the Supreme for their remaining Avidyalesha, so they can enjoy the Lila. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 Namaste Atmachaitanyaji Thanks for this clarification. I find myself more in agreement with you now than ever. Of course, I still maintain that an acceptance of a Bhavarupa avidya poses no problem to the removal samsara as long as I know that it is mithya too. With regards to avidya being anadi, i think the word anadi should be interpreted as not 'begininglessness' but rather 'untraceable beginning'. pls comment. I have one more question for you, that is if you don't mind. Now that I know that I am the absolute Brahman why is it that I still have the fear of duality? Shastra declares that 'the one who knows this Truth crosses fear'. But why is it that despite discussing and being convinced 'intellectually' (is this the right word? nevermind) that Brahman alone IS, why do I still feel that I am 'ignorant', 'a seeker', 'a doer' etc.....Or what can I do to overcome this? Pls advise. Anyway, Atmachaitanyaji I enjoyed studying all your posts and have learnt alot from it. I thank you for that and would like to let you know that I wasn't offended by any of your posts although i could have offended you with my replies. I am sorry for that. Kathi > > atmachaitanya108 [sMTP:stadri] > Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:06 PM > advaitin > Re: Whence Adhyasa > > Dear K Kathirasan NCS, > > If you really take the position that Mula Avidya (Root Ignorance- > An Avidya that is completely different from the three well known > categories of merely 'Not Knowing' 'Doubting' and 'Misconceiving') is > Mithya (false) then we have no fundamental disagreement Beause if it > is false then it can be said to be removed by knowledge.. But please > take note, that if it is false, then it too must be the result of a > Misconception (Adhyasa). The 'false snake' cannot appear without the > misconception.. It must be Avidya Kalpita, Imagined by Ignorance. We > all see a world. We all feel that it must exist in some manner, we > therefore imagine a cause for that world, a cause that actually > exists, or exists in a peculiar way, such as 'neither existent nor > non-existent', and that must somehow cover Brahman and result in the > world that we see. But the world and its inferred cause are both > superimpositions on the Self. Just like the misconceived snake and its > 'cause', 'the inferred mother of that snake. When we realize there > never was a 'snake' what happens to the 'inferred mother', which was > the 'cause' of that snake? When we realize that there never was any > duality, or world, what will happen to that imagined 'cause' for the > supposed Duality or world? They were both just Misconceptions. > Superimposition (Adhyasa) has to be in full play to even see a world > or imagine its cause. Cause and Effect only arise with the appearance > of Duality and Time (In Duality the cause must come first, the effect > after). Duality is a Superimposition on the Self, a 'wrong' knowledge > regarding the Self, a 'misconception' about the Self. It is knowledge > of the Self that can destroy this 'Misconception' (Adhyasa) about the > Non-Dual Self . Knowledge can do nothing more, and nothing more need > be done. (This is the view of deliberate Superimposition, Adhyaropa, > the Empirical View). When it is understood that there is only the One > Self Without a Second, then we realize that no one ever had any > misconception, and no knowledge was ever needed to remove that > misconception. All of this Avidya and Vidya has also been the outcome > of a misconception. There has always been only the Self (This is the > Apavada in the methodology of Vedanta, even the teachings of Vidya and > Avidya are rescinded in the end, Not This, Not This). As Advaitins, > we certainly both agree that Ultimately there never was any Ignorance > at all. Not that Ignorance really existed from beginingless time and > really inhered in the Absolute.And that we, somehow, have to really > remove it to get free. > > If you try to clarify your position by stating that even in your > theory Root Ignorance is also false from the Absolute view point, and > that it is only from the empirical view that we put forth this > teaching. . Then I reply that our disagreement is, of course, only > from the empirical point of view.I am not shifting viewpoints and then > merely dismissing Madatilnairs' objections from the absolute point of > view. It is from the empirical view point that I answered the > objections. It is from the Empirical view point that we disagree about > the nature of Ignorance as well as it cause. I hold that from the > empirical point of view, to teach that: 'Due to 'not knowing the Self' > we have misconceived it as the false Not-Self', is a teaching that > points out a universal fact that is verifiable by all in there own > experience. We have all mixed the Witness with the Witnessed; even > this Vedantic teaching is proceeding due to this most basic > misconception (Adhyasa) of taking the Witness for the Witnessed. For > without misconceiving that we are the body senses and mind (which > experience can verify as a misconception, for in experience, the body > senses and mind are forever the "Witnessed" and never the Witness), > we can't be 'knowers', we can't be ignorant of anything, including the > the Self Evident, Self Manifest, Self, we cant seek out a Guru who is > different from us and who will teach us the correct knowledge of the > Self. All this proceeds on this fundamental Misconception (this I take > to be Shankaras teaching from the empirical point of view, the > Adhyaropa, 'Deliberate Superimposition' point of view). As opposed > to the 'empirical point of view' in which a theory is put forth, > (totally divorced from any common experience that could be relied upon > to confirm it) in which we postulate a begingingless positive cause > (not merely imagined, but an existing Indescribable, Anirvachiniya, ' > empirical thing' that is the 'cause' for both the appearance of > duality and the imagination, misconception (Adhyasa) about it - for > MulaAvidya Vadins misconception is caused, it is the effect of this > inert twofold power to it cover Reality (avarana Shakti) and project > the world (vikhepa Shakti), a power that projects not only the world > but all the individuals in the world, who each have their own > personal misconceptions, and it is not merely 'not knowing' that > makes misconceptions appear). A Bhava Rupa 'power'. that we have to > somehow 'destroy' or remove by knowledge. How exactly Knowledge > accomplishes this 'empirical' feat is never made clear. And if > knowledge could ever get rid of this Anadi Tri Guna Atmika Prikriti > (the beginingless primal nature which is made up of three Gunas and > which is a synonym for Mula Avidya), then liberation would be both an > effect and an event in time, and thus non-eternal. > > Hari Om > Atmachaitanya > > P.S. I would like to extend my thanks to all the participants in this > discussion about the 'Whence of Adhayasa'. To Stig Lundgren for > making available that fantastic article on Adhyasa Bhasya, (it should > be made mandatory reading for all those who are serious about trying > to get to the heart of Shankaras Advaita), and especially to those > who have objected and will continue to object to the views I have > presented, as well as to those who moderate and maintain this Advaitin > web site. It has allowed me the opportunity to articulate and ponder > and be challenged over this profound and subtle subject of Adhyasa and > its 'cause'. Where else could one find a forum whose stated intent is > to discuss primarily Shanakras' Advaita Vedanta Philosophy and > Practice, and its related issues. I hope that the pedantic and > aggressive style of my posts haven't overly offended those who are > also analyzing and trying to understand these very same issues. Each > inquirer will ultimately decide for himself on the "Whence of Adhyasa" > one way or the other, or suspend judgment or decide that it really > isn't that important and move on to other things, perhaps thanking > the Supreme for their remaining Avidyalesha, so they can enjoy the > Lila. > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 Dear Shri Atmachaitanyaji, Reading your brilliant post was indeed an electrifying experience. Thanks to you for the explanation and to Shri Kathirasanji for the incisive prodding. >From the P.S. to your post, I am afraid you are closing shop and calling it a day. Not yet please, Shri Atmachaitanyaji. We, those who have not delved into Adhyasa Bhashya, will certainly read the recommended article. In the meanwhile, as I indicated in my last post, I am still not sure if I can accept the logic that you employed to clinch your conclusion that the limited "I", the enquirer who is affected by the misconception, is himself/herself the "whence" of the misconception (adhyasa). Like the appearance of the snake and the appearance of the misconception are simultaneous, you have pointed out that the appearance of the mind (the "I" who asks "Whence Adhyasa?") and misconception (Adhyasa itself) are simultaneous. I have almost continuously been ruminating over your argument and still find it very unconvincing due to the reasons already mentioned in my previous posts and also due to the fact that the answer to the question in this particular case does not substatianate or validate the very question itself. What I mean is that since the "whence" of something is looked for, logically that "whence" should, if it exists, precede the something. The rope-snake example is not just adequate as I explained before because the snake itself is the misconception there. Sorry to bother you with all this. There is yet another doubt. In your last post of 26th March, you very kindly cleared my misunderstanding about Shankara's viewpoint of Adhyasa. You then pointed out: "For the sake of discriminating between the Self and the Not-Self, Shankara is not at all reluctant to say that the `qualities' of Consciousness and Being belong to the Self alone and never to the Not-Self". If this is accepted and since Adhyasa is something that is cognized and existing in our awareness (because we are asking the question "Whence Adhyasa?") like the chithathmika universe, then why did Shankara have to reject Gaudapada's position that Brahman does the superimposing (Thought (a) of Douglas Fox). If the `qualities' could be accepted as belonging to Consciousness, then "adhyasa" could also be included under the scope of `qualities". Brahman can thus be the "whence" of adhyasa and still be considered as not becoming active and changeable. I would love to have your views. Best regards. Madathil Nair advaitin, "atmachaitanya108" <stadri@a...> wrote: > Dear K Kathirasan NCS, > > If you really take the position that Mula Avidya (Root Ignorance- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 namaste. I am sorry for my late entry into this discussion again. I tend to agree slightly with shri Madathil Nair's first post in the recent rejuvenation of the thread. While shri Atmachaitanyaji's posts are very lucid expositions, they are overpowering against mUla-avidyA. I do not think anyone here has argued *for* mUla-avidyA. The untenability of mUla-avidyA (here I understand mUla-avidyA as that having its own independent existence parallel to Atman) is obvious. The bogey of mUla-avidyA is brought into the discussion by shri Atmachaitanyaji himself and is flogged to death by shri Atmachaitanyaji himself. Shri Atmachaitanyaji's presentation on adhyAsabhAShya can stand tall by itself without condemning the straw-man of mUla-avidyA. Yet, the discussions on 'whence adhyAsa?' are very useful in re-visiting shri shankara's points on this matter. In this context, I request a few clarifications. On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, sophia & ira schepetin wrote: > [...] > > All Indian thinkers who put forth the view that there is only one > Absolute Reality have had to grapple with the question: If there is only > the Absolute Reality, then how is it that the dualistic world of > multiplicity makes its appearance? Why do people say the *dualistic* world makes its appearance? Is it not in our thinking whether it is dualistic or not? It is our ignorance which makes the world *dualistic*. Is it not the defect in our perception that makes it dualistic? Let us look at fingers of the hand. We do not see any duality there. If we keep extrapolating this, we can conclude that while the world *appears* dualistic, it has for its basis only the non-dual Consciousness. It only *appears* dualistic. > [...] > In order to understand the ‘Whence of Adhyasa’, at least according to > Shankaracharya, the first important issue that must be appreciated is > the distinction between the “Absolute > point of view”(Paramarthika Drishti) and the “Worldly or empirical point > of view” (Loukika-vyavharika Dristi). From the Absolute perspective, > the perspective of truth, there was never anyone who had ignorance, no > one had to get any sort of knowledge to remove that ignorance, and there > never was a Guru who had to teach the meaning of the Upanishads to a > seeker so that he could be released from his bondage caused by that > ignorance. This is the final position of Advaita Vedanta, and not that > in fact a really existing Ignorance that someone actually had was at ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > some particular point in time removed by the Shastra Pramana, and in so > doing the seeker really became liberated. I am wondering who in advaita has postulated a *really existing ignorance* ? May be we are fighting imagined enemies here. > (It should be noted that if in > fact this were the case then liberation would be an event in time, and > thus it would have a beginning and would therefore necessarily have an > end. It could not be eternal.) >From the paramArtha, there is no beginning or end for moksha. Moksha itself will not have a meaning, just like ignorance does not have a meaning. Yet from the perspective of the ignorant people around, there is a beginning time for moksha, when they see that a person amongst themselves, with Knowledge, sees the jagat as it is, Brahman. They (in the vyavahArika) perceive a beginning time for moksha. That is a vyavahAric concept, which cannot be denied in vyavahArika. Further, I notice shri Atmachaitanyaji saying "If anything has a beginning, it has to have an end....". I will give two examples, both vyavahArika concepts which contradict this. Ignorance: it has no beginning, it has an end. Moksha: it has a beginning, but it has no end. I would like to emphasize again: these are vyavahArika concepts which can be defended. The paramArtha perspective of GauDapAda in the kArika: "Adau anta ca yAn nAsti vartamAnepi tat tathA" [ that which is not there at the beginning and which is not there at the end may just as well be considered not there at the present] is the Truth. > [...] > > Now, Dennis, we can begin to tackle the question ‘Whence Adhyasa. > It is a question that can be interpreted as: ‘ O.K let us grant that > Adyhasa is the mutual superimposition of the Self and Non-Self, and let > us also grant that because of this Adhyasa all worldly life is > proceeding, and not only that, let us also grant that due to Adhyasa all > ‘spiritual life’ (Vaidika Vyvahara) is proceeding, such as the teachings > concerning injunctions (Vidhis) and prohibitions (pratishedas), Karmas > and meditations as well as the principle Upanishadic teaching concerning > the knowledge of the Self, and how this relates to bondage and release > (Bunda Moksha Vyvahara), but the question now is: What is the ‘cause’ > for this misconception itself? Why do we superimpose the Self and the > Not-Self? What is the reason for this Adhyasa to come about in the first > place? > > [...] "What is the cause for adhyAsa?" is, in my view, an absurd question (with all respect to shri Dennis). This question does not have an answer. The intellect, which asks this question is itself a product of adhyAsa, hence cannot grasp any answer to it (even if there is an answer). The intellect and the question get melted away as what may be called an answer to this appears. Finally, in his most recent post, shri Atmachaitanyaji seems to be putting a farewell post. I hope he will continue to post on the list on these topics which are dearest to all. His posts are very lucid expositions. > Om Tat Sat > Atmachaitanya > Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 Dear K Kathirasan, You ask: "Now that I know that I am the absolute Brahman, why is it that I still have the fear of Duality? Shastra says that the one who knows this crosses over fear. But why is it that despite discussions, and being convinced 'intellectually', that Brahman alone IS, why do I still feel that I am 'ignorant', a 'seeker', a 'doer' etc…. Or what can I do to overcome this?" AHHH…the $64,000 question? A question that all serious students of Advaita have no doubt repeatedly asked themselves, of course, myself included. How is it that I could have studied Vedanta so long, be absolutely convinced of the veracity of it assertions, (and not merely because some Guru proclaimed them, but because I had verified the validity of these teachings in my own experience. I was able to understand the difference between the Witness and the Witnessed, not only intellectually and indirectly, but experientially and directly. I was able to see that I am the Witness of the three states and that they, and the dualistic dealings that go on within them, don't affect me in the least. I was able to corroborate that I am in fact the knower of the mind, and in me there never was any fear and sorrow, these were just properties of the mind); and nevertheless, I continue to see Duality. A serious defect, because it is the one who sees duality that fears it, or tries to enjoy it, or escape it. or attempts to be effortless in it, or resolves to be indifferent to it, and continues on with his worldly life. Why hasn't it come to an end, at least the fear and sorrow and confusion part of it? How is it that I'm not yet Liberated? Now there are a few ways in which a sincere seeker of truth can deal with this situation. He can conclude that the distinction between the Witness and Witnessed must be false and abandon the whole Vedantic enterprise and get on with his life. He can conclude that he may not yet have the 'final' knowledge, and he should therefore continue with his endless discussions, study, try to find some more powerful reasoning, get his intellectual doubts resolved, even though new doubts keep popping up. Or decide that ultimately the Vedantic 'Knowledge' that arises from the study and listening to the Teachings is only after all 'intellectual', and that he must do something, get the Nirvikalpa Samadhi or some new type of "mystical' experience, the final "Sakshatkara", to get the real, final and Experiential knowledge of the self, until then he will continue to suffer. Or he may conclude (and this perhaps is the most ruinous option) that he is in fact a Jnani, he is perfectly convinced that Duality is false, and that even though Duality is still appearing, due to his conviction that it is false and all that exists is the Self alone, he is unaffected. It has been sublated, falsified in his mind, but nevertheless, he still feels that he has Pratibundikas, obstacles to that knowledge; ether in the form of old vasanas, or that he has to undergo, (even though he 'knows' its only apparent), his remaining Prabdha Karma, till he gets Videha mukti, or that a trace of Ignorance still remains so he can carry out his empirical life. It was a view similar to the last option mentioned above that I myself adopted over the course of 25 years of Vedantic study. A view in which the basic difference between a Jnani, a wiseman, and an Ajnani, an ignorant man, was that while they both were seeing the same "duality' the Ignorant man takes it for real. But the wise man, the Jnani, was the one who 'knows', who has the unshakable conviction based on his own experience, that the Duality that he is seeing is false. A view which I now take to be extremely misguided, and which a compassionate teacher took months to disabuse me of, gently kicking me off the throne of 'Jnanidom'. A view which in fact is like a noose around the seekers throat, keeping him fully bound to his Knowership, and the arrogance of thinking himself a Jnani. The thinking goes like this: Before I began my study of Vedanta I didn't know Brahman, now that I have studied Vedanta, under the guidance of a qualified teacher, I do 'know' Brahman, (granting the fact that this knowledge was based on my own direct experience), but I continue to see the world and have the conviction it is false and that only Brahman exists. Now ask yourself, (although it is admittedly quite comforting to think that you are a 'Knower of the Self'), who is it that 'knows' Brahman, and who is it that now sees the world of duality and who is it that now has the conviction that it is false? And who is the one bewailing the fact that although he knows only Brahman exists, he still fears Duality? Could it be Atman, your Self? Does Atman see anything, have convictions about anything or fear anything? It is that same Ego, who is in exactly the same situation that it was in before his study of Vedanta. He is still a knower (albeit a "Knower of Brahman"), still a seer (of duality), still one who has convictions about the world or about Brahman. Its just that now the conviction is that Duality is false, unlike before studying Vedanta and having the conviction that it was real. The Ego is still in full operation. He continues to suffer, to have Raga And Dvesha, Shoka and Moha ( likes and dislikes, sorrow and confusion). He still feels in his heart of hearts, that he is still ignorant or at least he has a trace of ignorance, that he is a doer, regardless of his convictions, or of his repeating of this 'knowledge' to try to make it stronger. It is the Ego who wants enlightenment, who wants to be liberated, who thinks that it is bound, or has attained the 'Knowledge of the Self'. But the Ego is false, unreal; It comes and goes with the States. It is the outcome of a misconception, it can never be liberated. It never really existed, it could never be bound, nor could it ever get free. It is actually Atman who appears as though bound, due to ignorance, not the Ego. It is the Atman who seems to be liberated, due to the removal of ignorance, not the Ego. This subtle distinction should be taken note of. It is not the Ego who is Bound because of ignorance, nor is it the Ego who will be Freed upon the removal of that ignorance. It is the Self who, because of ignorance, appears as if bound and it is the Self that appears as if freed due to the removal of Ignorance. We all want our Egos to be free! But it is only Atman who is free. Atmans true nature (Svarupa), is eternally liberated (Nitya Muktah) unaffected by the appearance or disappearance of ignorance itself. This ego will always be a Samsari, as long as he appears. He is the product of a misconception, born of ignorance and therefore could never be Liberated, Muktah, never free from doubts, never free from seeing duality, from having fear and sorrow. Never free from being a 'knower', 'doer', 'enjoyer', from being a sadhaka, from being a "Jnananishta". And certainly it will never be a Jnani , for a Jnani, in Vedanta, is the Atman. There is only ONE Jnani, not many! And Atman is of a nature totally opposed to the Ego. Atman is always free from all fears and sorrows, from searching and doubts, from being tortured by the question, 'When will I become truly Liberated'?. In Vedanta, Knowing means Being. It doesn't mean that you retain your Pramatrutva, Knowership, and that Brahman is now an object of your knowledge, It certainly does not mean that you now have an "Akhanda Akara Vritti" A special type of mental modification which has allowed you to cognize Brahman. TO KNOW BRAHMAN IS TO BE BRAHMAN in Vedanta. That is Vedantic knowledge. That is the Final Knowledge. That is when all Knowership, doership, enjoyership ceases. Because it is only when you are Brahman, not by merely 'knowing' it, but by Being it, that all suffering ends, that Samsara is uprooted root and branch. "Brahamvid Brahma BhavatiThe knower of Brahman is Brahman" What is the meaning of the verse? Should we take it as some type of exaggeration or praise? Are we to take it figuratively? Or is it to be taken literally, as a statement of an eternal Truth, and if so, what are the real implications of that? "Yatra tu Dvaivta iva…. " Where there is Duality as it were, then ones sees another, one hears another, one 'knows' another. But when, to this knower of the Self, all has be come the Self alone, then what will he see and with what? What will he Hear and with what? What will he 'know' and with what?" Here we have a Sruti text which denies all vyavahara, all empirical life to the wise man, to the Jnani. He has no convictions about Duality, 'intellectual' or otherwise He doesn't even see Duality, so that he could have any convictions about it. Like a man asleep. He is the Self, Eternally liberated. That is the meaning of Tat Tvam Asi. You are That, not that you are the 'knower of That'. That is the meaning of Liberation. That is the meaning of 'He crosses over sorrow', in the Sruti. (Not that the Ego got liberated at some point.) The one who complains, even to himself, 'How is it that I have 'known' the Self, but I still have problems', is NOT a 'knower' of the Self. He is the one with a misconception, still under the spell of Adhyasa. I hope this sheds some light on the common, chronic, and hard to cure Vedantic ailment: 'Why is it that I know the Self, yet I'm still a Sukhi, Duhki Samasri ?'. Hari Om Atmachaitanya P.S. Sri Krishna.Ghadiyaram asked: "Is it your position that Avidya is adhyasa, Avidya is not Maya?" That is exactly correct. It is due to Avidya that Maya is appearing. Avidya is the 'cause', 'Maya' ( the world of names and forms) is the effect. According to Shankara they are different. Because we don't know the Self, we are misconceiving it as the world. That external and internal 'world' in its totality is refered to as Maya It was the Post Shankara Mula Avidya Vadins who identified them as one Avidya/Maya and portrayed it as a 'primordial Power' that inhered in the Absolute and accounted for the appearance of the world. This was the beginning of the end for Shankaras' Vedanta. > > I have one more question for you, that is if you don't mind. Now that I know > that I am the absolute Brahman why is it that I still have the fear of > duality? Shastra declares that 'the one who knows this Truth crosses fear'. > But why is it that despite discussing and being convinced 'intellectually' > (is this the right word? nevermind) that Brahman alone IS, why do I still > feel that I am 'ignorant', 'a seeker', 'a doer' etc.....Or what can I do to > overcome this? Pls advise. > > > > > > atmachaitanya108 [sMTP:stadri@a...] > > Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:06 PM > > advaitin > > Re: Whence Adhyasa > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 In a message dated 3/29/02 2:12:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, stadri writes: > Dear K Kathirasan, > > You ask: "Now that I know that I am the absolute Brahman, why is it > that I still have the fear of Duality? Shastra says that the one who > knows this crosses over fear. But why is it that despite discussions, > and being convinced 'intellectually', that Brahman alone IS, why do I > still feel that I am 'ignorant', a 'seeker', a 'doer' etc…. Or what > can I do to overcome this?" > > AHHH…the $64,000 question? A question that all serious students of > Advaita have no doubt repeatedly asked themselves, of course, myself > included. How is it that I could have studied Vedanta so long, be > absolutely convinced of the veracity of it assertions, (and not > merely because some Guru proclaimed them, but because I had verified > the validity of these teachings in my own experience. I was able to > understand the difference between the Witness and the Witnessed, not > only intellectually and indirectly, but experientially and directly. I > was able to see that I am the Witness of the three states and that > they, and the dualistic dealings that go on within them, don't affect > me in the least. I was able to corroborate that I am in fact the > knower of the mind, and in me there never was any fear and sorrow, > these were just properties of the mind); and nevertheless, I continue > to see Duality. A serious defect, because it is the one who sees > duality that fears it, or tries to enjoy it, or escape it. or attempts > to be effortless in it, or resolves to be indifferent to it, and > continues on with his worldly life. Why hasn't it come to an end, at > least the fear and sorrow and confusion part of it? How is it that I'm > not yet Liberated? So long as we are in a body, Duality stays, but when the Duality is simultaneously immersed in a sea of real samadhi stuff, the fear aspect goes to dissolution. The joy aspect of Duality emerges ever more strongly. The idea of having 'witnessed' may be just that: the beautiful long term intellectually constructed idea of 'witnessing', as opposed to 'real witnessing', which is an entirely new and amazing experience as it is accompanied with a great deal more of that samadhi stuff. One night I had quite a dream, something that took days and weeks for me to untangle. Though I often dream, watching myself doing this or that in a dream, usually a continuation of waking state things, this particular night was more baffling. I was off on the side line, watching myself, the Seer, who was watching myself doing this or that. The witness was three layers deep, but I couldn't really say it was the witness because it was consciously creating some rules also, that it was simultaneously aware of the waking state, and to prove it, would wake the body upon command, which it did! I woke up apparently with the same identification as the 3rd level sideline witness. The 2nd level witness (still myself) was aware of and knew everything that the 1st level 'myself' was actually doing in the dream, but was not aware of the 3rd level witness which passed directly to waking state upon waking. So intellectually, we surely can create all sorts of fascinating new maya positions for ourselves. It was the flowing samadhi stuff at the 3rd level which made the whole thing rather enjoyable, certainly not fearful. > Now there are a few ways in which a sincere seeker of truth can > deal with this situation. He can conclude that the distinction between > the Witness and Witnessed must be false and abandon the whole > Vedantic enterprise and get on with his life. He can conclude that he > may not yet have the 'final' knowledge, and he should therefore > continue with his endless discussions, study, try to find some more > powerful reasoning, get his intellectual doubts resolved, even though > new doubts keep popping up. Or decide that ultimately the Vedantic > 'Knowledge' that arises from the study and listening to the Teachings > is only after all 'intellectual', and that he must do something, get > the Nirvikalpa Samadhi or some new type of "mystical' experience, the > final "Sakshatkara", to get the real, final and Experiential knowledge > of the self, until then he will continue to suffer. Or he may conclude > (and this perhaps is the most ruinous option) that he is in fact a > Jnani, he is perfectly convinced that Duality is false, and that even > though Duality is still appearing, due to his conviction that it is > false and all that exists is the Self alone, he is unaffected. It has > been sublated, falsified in his mind, but nevertheless, he still feels > that he has Pratibundikas, obstacles to that knowledge; ether in the > form of old vasanas, or that he has to undergo, (even though he > 'knows' its only apparent), his remaining Prabdha Karma, till he gets > Videha mukti, or that a trace of Ignorance still remains so he can > carry out his empirical life. > Sir, this supreme articulated Vedanta that you masterfully evolve is certainly not the 'final' knowledge. "Seek first the kingdom of heaven and all . . ." A simple initiation will provide an experience that will relieve virtually all of these problems and then simultaneously shed a new interpretation of all this heavy intellectualized Vedanta. Thoughts are thoughts are thoughts. One stays in thoughts with thoughts, and the whole thing is layer upon layer of ever more intricate maya sheaths. > It was a view similar to the last option mentioned above that I > myself adopted over the course of 25 years of Vedantic study. A view > in which the basic difference between a Jnani, a wiseman, and an > Ajnani, an ignorant man, was that while they both were seeing the same > "duality' the Ignorant man takes it for real. But the wise man, the > Jnani, was the one who 'knows', who has the unshakable conviction > based on his own experience, that the Duality that he is seeing is > false. A view which I now take to be extremely misguided, and which a > compassionate teacher took months to disabuse me of, gently kicking > me off the throne of 'Jnanidom'. A view which in fact is like a noose > around the seekers throat, keeping him fully bound to his Knowership, > and the arrogance of thinking himself a Jnani. The thinking goes like > this: Before I began my study of Vedanta I didn't know Brahman, now > that I have studied Vedanta, under the guidance of a qualified > teacher, I do 'know' Brahman, (granting the fact that this knowledge > was based on my own direct experience), but I continue to see the > world and have the conviction it is false and that only Brahman > exists. Now ask yourself, (although it is admittedly quite comforting > to think that you are a 'Knower of the Self'), who is it that 'knows' > Brahman, and who is it that now sees the world of duality and who is > it that now has the conviction that it is false? And who is the one > bewailing the fact that although he knows only Brahman exists, he > still fears Duality? Could it be Atman, your Self? Does Atman see > anything, have convictions about anything or fear anything? It is that > same Ego, who is in exactly the same situation that it was in before > his study of Vedanta. He is still a knower (albeit a "Knower of > Brahman"), still a seer (of duality), still one who has convictions > about the world or about Brahman. Its just that now the conviction is > that Duality is false, unlike before studying Vedanta and having the > conviction that it was real. The Ego is still in full operation. He > continues to suffer, to have Raga And Dvesha, Shoka and Moha ( likes > and dislikes, sorrow and confusion). He still feels in his heart of > hearts, that he is still ignorant or at least he has a trace of > ignorance, that he is a doer, regardless of his convictions, or of his > repeating of this 'knowledge' to try to make it stronger. > Jnana is but one aspect of purusa. One sure way to kill the flow of samadhi, whatever amount there may have been to start, is to put intent and action to the scrutiny of the values of academia. Do not misinterpret, the advaita logic is great, but it cannot stand by itself. Sir, please read the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi postings put on board a short while ago. That is not fiction either. The problem can be unfolded by way of the information contained within. > It is the Ego who wants enlightenment, who wants to be liberated, who > thinks that it is bound, or has attained the 'Knowledge of the Self'. > But the Ego is false, unreal; It comes and goes with the States. It is > the outcome of a misconception, it can never be liberated. It never > really existed, it could never be bound, nor could it ever get free. > It is actually Atman who appears as though bound, due to ignorance, > not the Ego. It is the Atman who seems to be liberated, due to the > removal of ignorance, not the Ego. This subtle distinction should be > taken note of. It is not the Ego who is Bound because of ignorance, > nor is it the Ego who will be Freed upon the removal of that > ignorance. It is the Self who, because of ignorance, appears as if > bound and it is the Self that appears as if freed due to the removal > of Ignorance. We all want our Egos to be free! But it is only Atman > who is free. Atmans true nature (Svarupa), is eternally liberated > (Nitya Muktah) unaffected by the appearance or disappearance of > ignorance itself. This ego will always be a Samsari, as long as he > appears. He is the product of a misconception, born of ignorance and > therefore could never be Liberated, Muktah, never free from doubts, > never free from seeing duality, from having fear and sorrow. Never > free from being a 'knower', 'doer', 'enjoyer', from being a sadhaka, > from being a "Jnananishta". And certainly it will never be a Jnani , > for a Jnani, in Vedanta, is the Atman. There is only ONE Jnani, not > many! And Atman is of a nature totally opposed to the Ego. Atman is > always free from all fears and sorrows, from searching and doubts, > from being tortured by the question, 'When will I become truly > Liberated'?. > Freedom abounds proportional to the flow of that soma samadhi stuff. There is a simple initiation process that opens awareness to more of it. Most ignore such a message, sometimes politely, sometimes not politely, it doesn't matter, preferring to perpetuate the suffering that is well known and personally owned. > In Vedanta, Knowing means Being. It doesn't mean that you > retain your Pramatrutva, Knowership, and that Brahman is now an object > of your knowledge, It certainly does not mean that you now have an > "Akhanda Akara Vritti" A special type of mental modification which > has allowed you to cognize Brahman. TO KNOW BRAHMAN IS TO BE BRAHMAN > in Vedanta. That is Vedantic knowledge. That is the Final Knowledge. > That is when all Knowership, doership, enjoyership ceases. Because it > is only when you are Brahman, not by merely 'knowing' it, but by Being > it, that all suffering ends, that Samsara is uprooted root and branch. > "Brahamvid Brahma BhavatiThe knower of Brahman is Brahman" What is > the meaning of the verse? Should we take it as some type of > exaggeration or praise? Are we to take it figuratively? Or is it to be > taken literally, as a statement of an eternal Truth, and if so, what > are the real implications of that? "Yatra tu Dvaivta iva…. " Where > there is Duality as it were, then ones sees another, one hears > another, one 'knows' another. But when, to this knower of the Self, > all has be come the Self alone, then what will he see and with what? > What will he Hear and with what? What will he 'know' and with what?" > Here we have a Sruti text which denies all vyavahara, all empirical > life to the wise man, to the Jnani. He has no convictions about > Duality, 'intellectual' or otherwise He doesn't even see Duality, so > that he could have any convictions about it. Like a man asleep. He is > the Self, Eternally liberated. That is the meaning of Tat Tvam Asi. > You are That, not that you are the 'knower of That'. That is the > meaning of Liberation. That is the meaning of 'He crosses over > sorrow', in the Sruti. (Not that the Ego got liberated at some point.) > The one who complains, even to himself, 'How is it that I have 'known' > the Self, but I still have problems', is NOT a 'knower' of the Self. > He is the one with a misconception, still under the spell of Adhyasa. > The spell of Adhyasa sticks around all the time while in a body, but the values of joy of the 'real witness' becomes greater while the complaints over avidya dissolve away. > I hope this sheds some light on the common, chronic, and hard to > cure Vedantic ailment: 'Why is it that I know the Self, yet I'm still > a Sukhi, Duhki Samasri ?'. > > Hari Om > Atmachaitanya > There's knowing and knowing and knowing, all on different levels of subtlety. The mental thought routines are a level more subtle than the sensory input information, and the feelings are yet another level more subtle (and therefore the controller) than the thinking. Thoughts move to put logical structure to feelings. Feelings (a more subtle tattva) control the motivational direction of thoughts. Where does a thought come from? Why this thought and not another thought? Is it possible to experience subtler and subtler levels of a thought? Yes, it is. Is it possible to go to the subtlest level of thought? Yes, it is. Is it possible to transcend this subtlest level of thought altogether? Yes, it is. What is left? The samadhi sea of transcendence, a joyful flow of life that is never forgotten. But one cannot get their alone by the seat of his pants, pulling oneself up by his own intellectual bootstraps. There needs to be an external technique. So simple a technique, yet it needs be transferred. jai guru dev, Edmond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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