Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Doing 'good' works feels good if the works are a form of yajña, that yajña as defined in the early chapters of Bhagavad Gita. This is meritorious and a degree of cleansing results, undoubtedly, as suggested below. But moving into and out of transcendental consciousness, daily, on a regular schedule, is a formula that automatically and spontaneously diminishes the undesirable desires of 'sin'. Right action is a real virtue, no doubt, if and when it can be done, usually with another stress or strain resulting in the inhibition. Moving first to the 'kingdom of heaven' to that samadhi region of joy, then all of the 'good' virtues automatically enhance, with no effort, while the 'sin' type unruly desires start to fall off. All of this can happen rather effortlessly with that regular daily contact with the transcendental values of samadhi, where these values of consciousness begin to simultaneously settle out in our waking state of activity. It's not a fiction. jai guru dev, Edmond In a message dated 3/27/02 3:53:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, venky writes: > > This week's page from Hindu Dharma (see note at bottom) is "Papa and Punya" > from "Religion In General". The original page can be found at > http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/chap2.htm. > > Next week, you will be emailed "The Purpose of Religion" (from "Religion In > General") > > Best regards > for kamakoti.org > > > Venkatesh > (this email is being sent on an automated basis) > > Papa and Punya > from Religion In General, Hindu Dharma > > Nobody wants to be known as a sinner, but all the same we keep > transgressing the bounds of morality and disobey the divine law. We wish to > enjoy the fruits of virtue without being morally good and without doing > anything meritorious. > > Arjuna says to Bhagavan Krsna: "No man wants to commit sin. Even so, Krsna, > he does evil again and again. What is it that drives him so? ". The lord > replies "It is desire. Yes, it is desire, Arjuna ". > > We try to gain the object of our desire with no thought of right or wrong > (Dharma or Adharma). Is fire put out by ghee poured into it? . No, it rises > higher and higher. Likewise, when we gratify one desire, another, much > worse, crops up. Are we to take it, then, that it would be better if our > desires were not satisfied? . No. Unfulfilled desire causes anger, so too > failure to obtain the object we hanker after. Like a rubber ball thrown > against the wall such an unsatisfied desire comes back to us in the form of > anger and goads us into committing sin. Krsna speaks of such anger as being > next only to desire (as an evil). > > Only by banishing desire from our hearts may we remain free from sin. How > is it done? We cannot but be performing our works. Even when we are > physically inactive, our mind remains active. All our mental and bodily > activity revolves around our desires. And these desires thrust us deeper > and deeper into sin. Is it, then, possible to remain without doing any > work? Human nature being what it is, the answer is "No". > > " It is difficult to quell one's thinking nor is it easy to remain without > doing anything ", says Tayumanavasvamigal. We may stop doing work with the > body, but how do we keep the mind quiet? The mind is never still. Apart > from being until itself, it incites the body to action. > > We are unable either to efface our desires or to cease from all action. > Does it then mean that liberation is beyond us? Is there no way out of the > problem? Yes, there is. It is not necessary that we should altogether stop > our actions in our present immature predicament. But instead of working for > our selfish ends, we ought to be engaged in such work as would bring > benefits to the world as well as to our inward life. The more we are > involved in such work the less we will be drawn by desire. This will to > some extent keep us away from sin and at the same time enable us to do more > meritorious work. We must learn the habit of doing work without any selfish > motives. Work done without any desire for the fruit thereof is Punya or > virtuous action. > > We sin in four different ways. With our body we do evil; with our tongue we > speak untruth; with our mind we think evil; and with our money we do so > much that is wicked. We must learn to turn these very four means of evil > into instruments of virtue. > > We must serve others with our body and circumambulate the Lord and > prostrate ourselves before him. In this way we earn merit. How do we use > our tongue to add our stock of virtue? By muttering, by repeating, the > names of the Lord. You will perhaps excuse yourself saying: "All our time > is spent in earning our livelihood. How can we think of God or repeat his > names? " A householder has a family to maintain; but is he all the time > working for it? How much time does he waste in gossip, in amusements, in > speaking ill of others, in reading the papers? Can't he spare a few moments > to remember the Lord? He need not set apart a particular hour of the day > for his japa. He may think of God even on the bus or the train as he goes > to his office or any other place. Not a paisa is he going to take with him > finally after his lifelong pursuit of money. The Lord's name (Bhagavannama) > is the only current coin in the other world. > > The mind is the abode of Isvara but we make a rubbish can of it. We must > cleanse it, install the Lord in it and be at peace with ourselves. We must > devote atleast five minutes every day to meditation and resolve to do so > even if the world crashes around us. There is nothing else that will give > us a helping hand when the world cosmos is dissolved. > > It is by helping the poor and by spreading the glory of the Lord that we > will earn merit. > > Papa, sinful action, is two-pronged in its evil power. The first incites us > to wrong-doing now. The second goads us into doing evil tomorrow. For > instance, if you take snuff now you suffer now. But tomorrow also you will > have the same yearning to take the same. This is what is called the vasana > that comes of habit. An effort must be made not only to reduce such vasana > but also cultivate the vasana of virtue by doing good deeds. > > It is bad vasana that drags us again and again into wrong-doing. > Unfortunately, we do not seem to harbour any fear on that score. People > like us, indeed even those known to have sinned much, have become devotees > of the Lord and obtained light and wisdom. How is Isvara qualified to to be > called great if he is not compassionate, and does not protect sinners also? > It is because of sinners like us that he has come to have the title of > "Patitapavana" [he who sanctifies or lifts up the fallen with his grace]. > It is we who have brought him such a distinction. > > "Come to me, your only refuge. I shall free you from all sins. Have no fear > (sarvapapebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah). " The assurance that Sri Krsna gives > to free us from sin is absolute. So let us learn to be courageous. To tie > up an object you wind a string round it again and again. If it is to be > untied you will have to do the unwinding in a similar manner. To eradicate > the vasana or sinning you must develop the vasana of doing good to an equal > degree. In between there ought to be neither haste nor anger. With haste > and anger the thread you keep unwinding will get tangled again. Isvara will > come to our help if we have patience, if we have faith in him and if we are > rooted in dharma. > > The goal of all religions is to wean away man- his mind, his speech and his > body- from sensual pleasure and lead him towards the Lord. Great men have > appeared from time to time and established their religions with the goal of > releasing people from attachment to their senses, for it is our senses that > impel us to sin. "Transitory is the joy derived from sinful action, from > sensual pleasure. Bliss is union with the Paramatman. " Such is the > teaching of all religions and their goal is to free man from worldly > existence by leading him towards the Lord. > > > > > > Note: > Hindu Dharma is a translation of two volumes of the well known Tamil Book > "Deivatthin Kural", which, in turn, is a book of 6 volumes that contains > talks of His Holiness Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi Mahaswamiji of > Kanchipuram. The entire book is available online at > http://www.kamakoti.org/ . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 This week's page from Hindu Dharma (see note at bottom) is "Papa and Punya" from "Religion In General". The original page can be found at http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/chap2.htm. Next week, you will be emailed "The Purpose of Religion" (from "Religion In General") Best regards for kamakoti.org Venkatesh (this email is being sent on an automated basis) Papa and Punya from Religion In General, Hindu Dharma Nobody wants to be known as a sinner, but all the same we keep transgressing the bounds of morality and disobey the divine law. We wish to enjoy the fruits of virtue without being morally good and without doing anything meritorious. Arjuna says to Bhagavan Krsna: "No man wants to commit sin. Even so, Krsna, he does evil again and again. What is it that drives him so? ". The lord replies "It is desire. Yes, it is desire, Arjuna ". We try to gain the object of our desire with no thought of right or wrong (Dharma or Adharma). Is fire put out by ghee poured into it? . No, it rises higher and higher. Likewise, when we gratify one desire, another, much worse, crops up. Are we to take it, then, that it would be better if our desires were not satisfied? . No. Unfulfilled desire causes anger, so too failure to obtain the object we hanker after. Like a rubber ball thrown against the wall such an unsatisfied desire comes back to us in the form of anger and goads us into committing sin. Krsna speaks of such anger as being next only to desire (as an evil). Only by banishing desire from our hearts may we remain free from sin. How is it done? We cannot but be performing our works. Even when we are physically inactive, our mind remains active. All our mental and bodily activity revolves around our desires. And these desires thrust us deeper and deeper into sin. Is it, then, possible to remain without doing any work? Human nature being what it is, the answer is "No". " It is difficult to quell one's thinking nor is it easy to remain without doing anything ", says Tayumanavasvamigal. We may stop doing work with the body, but how do we keep the mind quiet? The mind is never still. Apart from being until itself, it incites the body to action. We are unable either to efface our desires or to cease from all action. Does it then mean that liberation is beyond us? Is there no way out of the problem? Yes, there is. It is not necessary that we should altogether stop our actions in our present immature predicament. But instead of working for our selfish ends, we ought to be engaged in such work as would bring benefits to the world as well as to our inward life. The more we are involved in such work the less we will be drawn by desire. This will to some extent keep us away from sin and at the same time enable us to do more meritorious work. We must learn the habit of doing work without any selfish motives. Work done without any desire for the fruit thereof is Punya or virtuous action. We sin in four different ways. With our body we do evil; with our tongue we speak untruth; with our mind we think evil; and with our money we do so much that is wicked. We must learn to turn these very four means of evil into instruments of virtue. We must serve others with our body and circumambulate the Lord and prostrate ourselves before him. In this way we earn merit. How do we use our tongue to add our stock of virtue? By muttering, by repeating, the names of the Lord. You will perhaps excuse yourself saying: "All our time is spent in earning our livelihood. How can we think of God or repeat his names? " A householder has a family to maintain; but is he all the time working for it? How much time does he waste in gossip, in amusements, in speaking ill of others, in reading the papers? Can't he spare a few moments to remember the Lord? He need not set apart a particular hour of the day for his japa. He may think of God even on the bus or the train as he goes to his office or any other place. Not a paisa is he going to take with him finally after his lifelong pursuit of money. The Lord's name (Bhagavannama) is the only current coin in the other world. The mind is the abode of Isvara but we make a rubbish can of it. We must cleanse it, install the Lord in it and be at peace with ourselves. We must devote atleast five minutes every day to meditation and resolve to do so even if the world crashes around us. There is nothing else that will give us a helping hand when the world cosmos is dissolved. It is by helping the poor and by spreading the glory of the Lord that we will earn merit. Papa, sinful action, is two-pronged in its evil power. The first incites us to wrong-doing now. The second goads us into doing evil tomorrow. For instance, if you take snuff now you suffer now. But tomorrow also you will have the same yearning to take the same. This is what is called the vasana that comes of habit. An effort must be made not only to reduce such vasana but also cultivate the vasana of virtue by doing good deeds. It is bad vasana that drags us again and again into wrong-doing. Unfortunately, we do not seem to harbour any fear on that score. People like us, indeed even those known to have sinned much, have become devotees of the Lord and obtained light and wisdom. How is Isvara qualified to to be called great if he is not compassionate, and does not protect sinners also? It is because of sinners like us that he has come to have the title of "Patitapavana" [he who sanctifies or lifts up the fallen with his grace]. It is we who have brought him such a distinction. "Come to me, your only refuge. I shall free you from all sins. Have no fear (sarvapapebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah). " The assurance that Sri Krsna gives to free us from sin is absolute. So let us learn to be courageous. To tie up an object you wind a string round it again and again. If it is to be untied you will have to do the unwinding in a similar manner. To eradicate the vasana or sinning you must develop the vasana of doing good to an equal degree. In between there ought to be neither haste nor anger. With haste and anger the thread you keep unwinding will get tangled again. Isvara will come to our help if we have patience, if we have faith in him and if we are rooted in dharma. The goal of all religions is to wean away man- his mind, his speech and his body- from sensual pleasure and lead him towards the Lord. Great men have appeared from time to time and established their religions with the goal of releasing people from attachment to their senses, for it is our senses that impel us to sin. "Transitory is the joy derived from sinful action, from sensual pleasure. Bliss is union with the Paramatman. " Such is the teaching of all religions and their goal is to free man from worldly existence by leading him towards the Lord. Note: Hindu Dharma is a translation of two volumes of the well known Tamil Book "Deivatthin Kural", which, in turn, is a book of 6 volumes that contains talks of His Holiness Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi Mahaswamiji of Kanchipuram. The entire book is available online at http://www.kamakoti.org/ . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote: > Doing 'good' works feels good if the works are a form of yajña, that yajña as > defined in the early chapters of Bhagavad Gita. This is meritorious and a > degree of cleansing results, undoubtedly, as suggested below. Good point, Sri Edmond Cleansing or chitta suddhi occurs not merely by a good act even if the act is a yagna but only when the act is dedicated to Ishwara. Lord Krishna explains this in two classic slokas in the ninth chapter. To me these two slokas pretty much define the how and why of Karma Yoga : yatkaroshhi yadashnaasi yaj{}juhoshhi dadaasi yat.h . yattapasyasi kaunteya tatkurushhva madarpaNam.h .. Gita 9.27.. O Son of Kunti, whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever sacrifices you perform, whatever you give, and whatever austerities you undertake - make them an offering to Me. If you ask why should I do this? In the next sloka, Lord Krishna speaks about the results of this kind a a of worship: shubhaashubhaphalairevaM mokshyase karmabandhanaiH . sa.nnyaasayogayuk{}taatmaa vimuk{}to maamupaishhyasi ..9.28.. Thus you will become free from actions which are by nature bondages (and) are productive of good and bad results. Having your mind purified by the yoga of sannyasa (and) becoming free, you will attain Me. advaitin/message/9332 > But moving > into and out of transcendental consciousness, daily, on a regular > schedule, > is a formula that automatically and spontaneously diminishes the > undesirable > desires of 'sin'. Right action is a real virtue, no doubt, if and when it > can be done, usually with another stress or strain resulting in the > inhibition. Moving first to the 'kingdom of heaven' to that samadhi region > of joy, then all of the 'good' virtues automatically enhance, with no effort, > while the 'sin' type unruly desires start to fall off. All of this can > happen rather effortlessly with that regular daily contact with the > transcendental values of samadhi, where these values of consciousness begin > to simultaneously settle out in our waking state of activity. It's not a > fiction. > > jai guru dev, > > Edmond > Beautifully put: In a nutshell this is exactly what a budding meditator needs to know. I don't know whether vichara (self enquiry) or other spiritual sadhanas produce these results but the beauty with meditation is this: after most sessions of meditation, you feel revitalised. The reason I don't say 'every' session is because you can have good and bad days of meditations. Good virtues automatically follow if your mind has soaked into deep peace and the effects spill over well into the daily activities. While I agree with your comments, Sri Edmond, I would be very reluctant to use the term Samadhi because Samadhi implies "Sukham Atyantikam" (supreme bliss) to quote Lord Krishna. Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Namaste Sundarji You have beautifully differentiated Karma Yoga from Karmas. Txs and best regards. > > avsundarrajan [sMTP:avsundarrajan] > Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:08 AM > advaitin > Re: Weekly page from Hindu Dharma: Papa and Punya > > advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote: > > Doing 'good' works feels good if the works are a form of yajña, > that yajña as > > defined in the early chapters of Bhagavad Gita. This is > meritorious and a > > degree of cleansing results, undoubtedly, as suggested below. > > Good point, Sri Edmond > > Cleansing or chitta suddhi occurs not merely by a good act even if > the act is a yagna but only when the act is dedicated to Ishwara. > Lord Krishna explains this in two classic slokas in the ninth > chapter. To me these two slokas pretty much define the how and why > of Karma Yoga : > > yatkaroshhi yadashnaasi yaj{}juhoshhi dadaasi yat.h . > yattapasyasi kaunteya tatkurushhva madarpaNam.h .. Gita 9.27.. > > O Son of Kunti, whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever > sacrifices you perform, whatever you give, and whatever austerities > you undertake - make them an offering to Me. > > If you ask why should I do this? In the next sloka, Lord Krishna > speaks about the results of this kind a a of worship: > > shubhaashubhaphalairevaM mokshyase karmabandhanaiH . > sa.nnyaasayogayuk{}taatmaa vimuk{}to maamupaishhyasi ..9.28.. > > Thus you will become free from actions which are by nature bondages > (and) are productive of good and bad results. Having your mind > purified by the yoga of sannyasa (and) becoming free, you will > attain Me. > > advaitin/message/9332 > > > But moving > > into and out of transcendental consciousness, daily, on a regular > > schedule, > > is a formula that automatically and spontaneously diminishes the > > undesirable > > desires of 'sin'. Right action is a real virtue, no doubt, if and > when it > > can be done, usually with another stress or strain resulting in > the > > inhibition. Moving first to the 'kingdom of heaven' to that > samadhi region > > of joy, then all of the 'good' virtues automatically enhance, with > no effort, > > while the 'sin' type unruly desires start to fall off. All of > this can > > happen rather effortlessly with that regular daily contact with > the > > transcendental values of samadhi, where these values of > consciousness begin > > to simultaneously settle out in our waking state of activity. > It's not a > > fiction. > > > > jai guru dev, > > > > Edmond > > > Beautifully put: In a nutshell this is exactly what a budding > meditator needs to know. I don't know whether vichara (self enquiry) > or other spiritual sadhanas produce these results but the beauty > with meditation is this: after most sessions of meditation, you feel > revitalised. The reason I don't say 'every' session is because you > can have good and bad days of meditations. Good virtues > automatically follow if your mind has soaked into deep peace and the > effects spill over well into the daily activities. > > While I agree with your comments, Sri Edmond, I would be very > reluctant to use the term Samadhi because Samadhi implies "Sukham > Atyantikam" (supreme bliss) to quote Lord Krishna. > > Sundar Rajan > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 Sri Sundar, the keenness of your observations are very refreshing. However, yes, I very much do mean 'samadhi', as mentioned below, and in accordance with the definition that you presented, implying "Sukham Atyantikam" (supreme bliss). There is need to differentiate clearly on these implied meanings: Brian has recently posted some inspirational and most important points of knowledge concerning Sankara and immersion in transcendental consciousness as brought out by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Of course, I've been deeply touched by Maharishi and am a long term TM teacher and siddha. I never cease to be inspired by Maharishi, no matter how many times I may read his profound materials. As said most beautifully by Maharishi, many of the interpretations of knowledge that we receive are upside-down, so to speak, where cause and effect seemingly have been interchanged over time. This occurs pretty much as a negating linear function that is proportional to the lost of direct experiences of transcendental consciousness, something that most folks have not experienced, even though they think that have after reading some nice words about it. When such folks do, in fact, experience real transcendental consciousness, they are the first to proclaim loudly that what they thought they were experiencing simply was not the case. Without direct continually reoccurring experiences of transcendental consciousness, most or all of the 8-Limbs seem to identify things to do to achieve Samadhi, that ending 8th sequentially Limb that most consider too far away to even be considered seriously. The first 7-Limbs are thus interpreted as things to do, things to work hard upon, and things to suffer with if necessary, to possibly, someday, come toward that distant samadhi thing, whatever it may be. After the direct experience of Samadhi, and then day after day, regularly, the content of the 'Limbs' of Yoga begin to appear, easily, naturally, and rather spontaneously, bit by bit over time. It is at this point where paying attention to such details brings on even more wealth, very rapidly indeed. And it turns out to be nearly effortless to pay attention to such things, as their notions automatically arise spontaneously anyhow, one might say, in spite of our past behavior. Attaining Samadhi is the key, and that is what TM is all about. Here, by and large, most folks first experience this Samadhi phenomena directly through an initiating experience, an experience which can thereafter be repeated forever, again and again, whenever desired. A more subtle door into consciousness has been opened. Hard to believe, I know. Many folks raise their eyebrows over such statements, often again and again, until the perso nal experience spontaneously dawns a new private and extremely blissful reality. These new experiences effect the interpretation of the 8-Limbs of Yoga, defined as: 1 - yama ------- restraints ------- Sutras Y2.30-31 2 - niyama ----- observances ------ Sutras Y2.32-34 3 - âsana ------ posture ---------- Sutras Y2.46-48 4 - prânâyâma -- breath practice -- Sutras Y2.49-53 5 - pratyâhâra - sense withdrawal - Sutras Y2.54-55 6 - dhâranâ ---- concentration ---- Sutra Y3.1 7 - dhyâna ----- meditation ------- Sutra Y3.2 8 - samâdhi ---- samâdhi ---------- Sutra Y3.3 Virtually all Sanskrit translations define #7 dhyâna as meditation. Dictionary entries indicate: dhyâna - meditation, thought, reflection, profound and abstract religious meditation, contemplation, suggestion, power release center, to indulge in, mental representation of the personal attributes of a deity This is probably pretty accurate since meditation is most often seen as some sort of contemplation, reflection, and/or mental representations of various religious thought forms, as per the above dictionary entries. However, this #7 Limb does NOT represent TM. In terms of TM, #7 is Contemplation, just as the dictionary suggests. Unfortunately, TM is also called meditation (something that started 40 or 50 years ago and is now well habituated) and lots of confusion arises over TM just because of this. As it turns out, TM is a spontaneous naturally flowing varying sequential arrangement of Limbs #6, #7, and #8, something that is completely independent of any kind of willful intellectualizations. None of this will not have much meaning until the direct experience is gained. Through a naturally flowing aspect of the mind, it is the direct experience of samadhi (supreme bliss) that brings out this new reality to awareness, though trying to further intellectualize now, before the experience, can only promote yet another 'dead' philosophy of real supreme avidya that is full of effort and suffering, going nowhere. Thus, the TM meditation experience roams around Limbs 6, 7, and 8, rather spontaneously and effortlessly, and particularly, spends considerable time bobbing directly in and out of samadhi, immediately from the first few meditations. This in turn eventually affects the appreciation of values brought out in Limbs 1 through 5 also. Of 1 and 2, the yamas and niyamas, these laudable thought forms and behaviors begin to spontaneously occur more of the time, bit by bit over time. Nothing is done. Nothing is suppressed or inhibited. No particular effort or 'suffering' is expended. Things just begin to happen more and more as outlined in all the Limbs. The Limbs are simply reporting on a perfectly natural and spontaneous outcome. Quite amazing actually. jai guru dev, punah, punah Edmond In a message dated 3/27/02 10:09:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, avsundarrajan writes: > . . . . . . Moving first to the 'kingdom of heaven' to that > samadhi region > > of joy, then all of the 'good' virtues automatically enhance, with > no effort, > > while the 'sin' type unruly desires start to fall off. All of > this can > > happen rather effortlessly with that regular daily contact with > the > > transcendental values of samadhi, where these values of > consciousness begin > > to simultaneously settle out in our waking state of activity. > It's not a > > fiction. > > > > jai guru dev, > > > > Edmond > > > Beautifully put: In a nutshell this is exactly what a budding > meditator needs to know. I don't know whether vichara (self enquiry) > or other spiritual sadhanas produce these results but the beauty > with meditation is this: after most sessions of meditation, you feel > revitalised. The reason I don't say 'every' session is because you > can have good and bad days of meditations. Good virtues > automatically follow if your mind has soaked into deep peace and the > effects spill over well into the daily activities. > > While I agree with your comments, Sri Edmond, I would be very > reluctant to use the term Samadhi because Samadhi implies "Sukham > Atyantikam" (supreme bliss) to quote Lord Krishna. > > Sundar Rajan > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 In a message dated 3/28/02 9:29:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, gmurthy writes: > namaste. > > It seems to me that the cause and effect are reversed above. > Doing the action as the HH Kanci pIThAdhipati has said in > his discourse is the cause and the entering into transcendental > Consciousness is the effect. Shri Edmond seems to be saying > that getting into transcendental Consciousness (on schedule?) > is the cause and the good actions follow as a result of that. > Am I mistaken in my reading or is it the gist of what shri > Edmond is saying? > > Regards > Gummuluru Murthy > Dear Sri Gummuluru: No, sir, you are not mistaken. Things are truly upside-down. The old phrase 'Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all else will come . . . " of Jesus is undoubtedly the experienced reality of those long involved in Transcendental Meditation as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. I recognize that it may sound unbelievable and perhaps even pretentious, but that is not the experienced reality of many thousands of folks. I would ask you to read the four postings recently made by Brian, of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, on Sankara and transcendental consciousness in his introduction to his Bhagavad Gita translation, chapters 1 through 6. As brought out in detail in Bhagavad Gita, spontaneous right action is the result of being most familiar and fully at home in the field of transcendental consciousness. We might get into this further if the list wishes to move in such a direction. Cause and Effect are reversed. jai guru dev, Edmond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 edmeasure wrote: > Doing 'good' works feels good if the works are a form of yajña, that yajña as > defined in the early chapters of Bhagavad Gita. This is meritorious and a > degree of cleansing results, undoubtedly, as suggested below. But moving > into and out of transcendental consciousness, daily, on a regular schedule, > is a formula that automatically and spontaneously diminishes the undesirable > desires of 'sin'. Right action is a real virtue, no doubt, if and when it > can be done, usually with another stress or strain resulting in the > inhibition. Moving first to the 'kingdom of heaven' to that samadhi region > of joy, then all of the 'good' virtues automatically enhance, with no effort, > while the 'sin' type unruly desires start to fall off. All of this can > happen rather effortlessly with that regular daily contact with the > transcendental values of samadhi, where these values of consciousness begin > to simultaneously settle out in our waking state of activity. It's not a > fiction. > > jai guru dev, > > Edmond > namaste. It seems to me that the cause and effect are reversed above. Doing the action as the HH Kanci pIThAdhipati has said in his discourse is the cause and the entering into transcendental Consciousness is the effect. Shri Edmond seems to be saying that getting into transcendental Consciousness (on schedule?) is the cause and the good actions follow as a result of that. Am I mistaken in my reading or is it the gist of what shri Edmond is saying? Regards Gummuluru Murthy -------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 I think that there are quite a number different 'Raja Yogas', according to a particular swami's experiences and the qualities of the holy tradition that spring forth. The classifications you call out below, uttama, madhyama, and adhama are typical of the variations of 'intense, middling, mild' classifications that are so prevalent throughout the Yoga Sutras. No matter where we are, no matter what we do, no matter how we classify, such rankings always exist, as 'top' of the class, 'middle' of the class, and 'bottom' of the class. In mathematical statistics, this is called a 'Bell Curve', that is a 'Normal Distribution'. It exist throughout all of nature. The particular activities you call off are all different aspects of the Yoga Sutras -- this is good for some folks and that is good for other folks. Again, now, though, these Yoga Sutras also represent a text book of accomplishments, of situations that various seers have seen and described. Though in some smaller sense, they can be considerations to dwell upon to advantage, mostly they represent situations for verification of our own experiences. It is good to read that the ancient seers, here and there, have also experienced things we are now experiencing. So the Yoga Sutras are more of a reference book, acknowledging that the new things springing up in our consciousness are OK. Everything is well. The phenomena experienced of more subtle values of reality are quite fine. We are not going mad or becoming psychically deranged. Mother is at home, as Maharishi would say. Of course, we usually feel that Mother is a home with most of the TM experiences anyhow, so there really is no problem. If we did not have these various sutras to rely upon for verification, then our progress could quite likely be slower, as we would more easily suppress or repress many new experiences, for no other reasons than they fall out of normally known patterns. Our parents and our teachers may never have told us about such things that we are now seeing. Thus we can only say, thank the lord for these sutras and all such scriptures. They are confirmation and guidance for us as we move on. But they are not principally meant to be a methodology to get there. They help the motivation of our undertaking by emphatically, with detail, saying that all is well. This is precious, but primarily it is to, "Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all else . . ." Go to samadhi first, and all else just comes along. And there are many levels, intensities, degrees, time lengths and wobbles of blissful joys in samadhi. What a beautiful thing, and far from static. It even comes along in activity with us after a while. Now and then, more or less. Great stuff. And no problem if we want to do a little asana or prânâyâma or this or that along the way also. And if we want to go to church or temple or ashram or pursue advaita, no problem. There is no threat about anything. There are simply no problems. jai guru dev, Edmond In a message dated 3/28/02 2:20:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, avsundarrajan writes: > According to Raja Yoga, there are three types of aspirants - Uttama, > Madhyama and Adhama Adhikaris. To three classes of aspirants Raja > Yoga prescribes three kinds of Sadhana. To the Uttama Adhikari (first- > class aspirant) Raja Yoga prescribes Abhyasa and Vairagya. He > practices meditation on the Self; he practices Chitta-Vritti-Nirodha > (restraining the modification of the mind-stuff) and soon enters into > Samadhi. This is practice (Abhyasa) sustained by Vairagya. To the > Madhyama Adhikari (middling aspirant) Raja Yoga prescribes the Kriya > Yoga - Tapas, Svadhyaya and Ishvarapranidhana. Tapas is austerity. > Egolessness and selfless service are the greatest forms of Tapas. > Humility and desirelessness are the greatest forms of austerity. > Practice these through ceaseless, untiring, selfless service. > Practice the three kinds of Tapas mentioned in the Gita. Disciplinary > practices like fasting, etc., also come under Tapas. Svadhyaya is > study of spiritual literature and also Japa of your Ishta Mantra. > Ishvarapranidhana is self-surrender to the Lord and doing all actions > as Ishvararpana, as offering unto the Lord. These three form the > Sadhanas of the Madhyama Adhikari who enters into deep meditation > very soon and attains Kaivalya Moksha. To the Adhama Adhikari, lowest > kind of aspirant, Raja Yoga prescribes Ashtanga Yoga or the eightfold > Sadhana - Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dharana, Dhyana > and Samadhi. > -- > extracted from Swami Sivananda's Raja Yoga book: > http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/teachings/rajayoga.htm#sutras > > It appears Sri Edmond is talking about the uttama adhikari whereas > the discourse may be discussing the madhyama adhikari. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 > namaste. > > It seems to me that the cause and effect are reversed above. > Doing the action as the HH Kanci pIThAdhipati has said in > his discourse is the cause and the entering into transcendental > Consciousness is the effect. Shri Edmond seems to be saying > that getting into transcendental Consciousness (on schedule?) > is the cause and the good actions follow as a result of that. > Am I mistaken in my reading or is it the gist of what shri > Edmond is saying? > Namaste Both points of view are valid. Like so many things in our scriptures, these are determined by the qualification (Adhikara) of the aspirant. -- According to Raja Yoga, there are three types of aspirants - Uttama, Madhyama and Adhama Adhikaris. To three classes of aspirants Raja Yoga prescribes three kinds of Sadhana. To the Uttama Adhikari (first- class aspirant) Raja Yoga prescribes Abhyasa and Vairagya. He practices meditation on the Self; he practices Chitta-Vritti-Nirodha (restraining the modification of the mind-stuff) and soon enters into Samadhi. This is practice (Abhyasa) sustained by Vairagya. To the Madhyama Adhikari (middling aspirant) Raja Yoga prescribes the Kriya Yoga - Tapas, Svadhyaya and Ishvarapranidhana. Tapas is austerity. Egolessness and selfless service are the greatest forms of Tapas. Humility and desirelessness are the greatest forms of austerity. Practice these through ceaseless, untiring, selfless service. Practice the three kinds of Tapas mentioned in the Gita. Disciplinary practices like fasting, etc., also come under Tapas. Svadhyaya is study of spiritual literature and also Japa of your Ishta Mantra. Ishvarapranidhana is self-surrender to the Lord and doing all actions as Ishvararpana, as offering unto the Lord. These three form the Sadhanas of the Madhyama Adhikari who enters into deep meditation very soon and attains Kaivalya Moksha. To the Adhama Adhikari, lowest kind of aspirant, Raja Yoga prescribes Ashtanga Yoga or the eightfold Sadhana - Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dharana, Dhyana and Samadhi. -- extracted from Swami Sivananda's Raja Yoga book: http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/teachings/rajayoga.htm#sutras It appears Sri Edmond is talking about the uttama adhikari whereas the discourse may be discussing the madhyama adhikari. As Sri Gummurulu points out good karmas and deep meditation are cause and effect but not necessarily in a sequential, linear way but more in a repetitive, iterative manner. It is not like a person has to do 'good' karmas for 20 years and then embark on meditation for the next 20 years. Both could happen daily in a Sadhaka's life. To be able to do any meditation, there has to be some chitta suddhi. Otherwise as Lord Krishna says the person would be a 'mithyachara' - sitting in meditation but the mind wandering around and thinking of sense objects etc. So to get to the initial stage, chitta suddhi via Karma Yoga is required. But when a person is able to meditate, the very practice itself generates chitta suddhi which in turn enables the person to perform 'good' karmas generating more chitta suddhi and this whole process repeats itself. As mentioned in my earlier posting, Karma Yoga is doing karmas as offering unto the Lord - this is essentially the same as 'Ishvarapranidhana' that Maharishi Patanjali prescribes as 'kriya yoga' 'Tapah Svadhyaye Isvara pranidhanani kriya yogah' Yoga Sutras II.1 -- Sundar Rajan > -------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 Dear Sundar Rajan Ed has posted to refute the idea - repeated by Swami Sivananda in the article linked to: "These eight limbs have been scientifically arranged and dealt with. They are the natural steps in the ladder which takes man from his human to the real divine nature." This idea that, for example, Yama and Niyama are necessary precursors to attaining Samadhi, is just plain wrong. The Ashtanga (which incidentally, Sivananda mixes up - he can't seem to decide whether Patanjali's Sutras are Raja Yoga, or Kriya Yoga or Ashtanga Yoga - they are of course all of them, and Patanjali makes no statements about qualifications for the practices described therein) are limbs, not steps. They support each other. The most important are the last three, and of them the last one is the main trunk: Samadhi. Delving into that quiet state (eventually, sometimes, beyond all thoughts ...) termed Transcendental Consciousness (Self-awareness if you prefer the term), on a regular and frequent basis, brings about the most subtle but significant changes. Non-violence, Ahimsa, naturally arises. Gross actions drop away. Brahmacharya is realised to be sweet chasteness, not some contrived sexual restraint. It's simple. And Patanjali's Sutras are written in such straightforward, simple terms, but they've still been bastardised and convoluted by many to fit some extraneous dogmas. Here's what people practicing TM end up doing from PRATHAMAH PADAH: 12. abhyasa vairagyabhyam tan nirodhah Those (vritti processes) are transcended with practice, and practice of detachment. 13. tatra sthitau yatno bhyasah Steady effort in that (citta-vritti-nirodhah) is practice 14. sa tu dirgha kala nairantarya satkarasevito drdha bhumih which becomes firmly rooted by being correctly done, uninterrupted, over a long time. | > It seems to me that the cause and effect are reversed above. | > Doing the action as the HH Kanci pIThAdhipati has said in | > his discourse is the cause and the entering into transcendental | > Consciousness is the effect. Shri Edmond seems to be saying | > that getting into transcendental Consciousness (on schedule?) | > is the cause and the good actions follow as a result of that. | > Am I mistaken in my reading or is it the gist of what shri | > Edmond is saying? | According to Raja Yoga, there are three types of aspirants - Uttama, | Madhyama and Adhama Adhikaris. To three classes of aspirants Raja | Yoga prescribes three kinds of Sadhana. Who says this where, for the first time? On what basis? | To be able to do any meditation, there has to be some chitta suddhi. | Otherwise as Lord Krishna says the person would be a 'mithyachara' - | sitting in meditation but the mind wandering around and thinking of | sense objects etc. So to get to the initial stage, chitta suddhi via | Karma Yoga is required. But when a person is able to meditate, the | very practice itself generates chitta suddhi which in turn enables | the person to perform 'good' karmas generating more chitta | suddhi and | this whole process repeats itself. This paragraph just completely contradicts everything that I learnt when I learnt to practice TM. I didn't have to prepare, mentally, physically or any other way. I attended a couple of preparatory talks, went to the initiation, got my mantra, went home and did it. 20 mins, morning and evening. That's all. And hey, presto, everything started subtleing down. New insights, into e.g. Holy Works and Shakespeare started arising. I stopped drinking (without any effort - it just wasn't something I needed to do anymore). Yoga Sutras II.1 1. tapah svadhyayesvara pranidhanani kriya yogah Discipline, self-study and resignation to Isvara constitute preliminary Yoga. 2. samadhi bhavanarthah klesa tanuk aranartas ca These, by habituating the attainment of samadhi, weaken distractions 3. avidyasmita raga dvesabhinivesah klesah which are: ignorance, egoism, desire, aversion, clinging to life In TM terms, discipline = 20 mins morning and evening, self-study = proper meditation practice, surrender to Isvara = transcending. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 Dear Brian, > | According to Raja Yoga, there are three types of aspirants - Uttama, > | Madhyama and Adhama Adhikaris. To three classes of aspirants Raja > | Yoga prescribes three kinds of Sadhana. > > Who says this where, for the first time? On what basis? > The classes of aspirants is clearly mentioned by as great an authority as Sri Sadasiva Brahman in His commentary called Prabodha Sudhakaras on Yoga Sutras. Here is how he introduces the first sloka of the second chapter (II.1) : ================================================================ Having earlier spoken of Samadhi (in Samadhi pada), together with its varieties, its immediate means and result, the author of the Sutras now speaks of Kriya Yoga, for the sake of one whose mind is unable to practise the earlier mentioned means (abhyasa and vairagya) and whose faults are unripe or unexhausted. The means prescribed earlier consist of dispassion and practice. They can be directly mastered only by those who are very competent aspirants. For those who are somewhat less competent, the author of the Sutras prescribes Kriya Yoga. The practice of Kriya Yoga makes one competent to practice what was expounded earlier. Yoga Sutras II.1 1. tapah svadhyayesvara pranidhanani kriya yogah Discipline, self-study and resignation to Isvara constitute preliminary Yoga. ================================================================== | To be able to do any meditation, there has to be some chitta suddhi. | Otherwise as Lord Krishna says the person would be a 'mithyachara' - | sitting in meditation but the mind wandering around and thinking of | sense objects etc. So to get to the initial stage, chitta suddhi via | Karma Yoga is required. But when a person is able to meditate, the | very practice itself generates chitta suddhi which in turn enables | the person to perform 'good' karmas generating more chitta | suddhi and | this whole process repeats itself. >> This paragraph just completely contradicts everything that I learnt when I learnt to practice TM. I didn't have to prepare, mentally, physically or any other way. I attended a couple of preparatory talks, went to the initiation, got my mantra, went home and did it. 20 mins, morning and evening. That's all. And hey, presto, everything started subtleing down. New insights, into e.g. Holy Works and Shakespeare started arising. I stopped drinking (without any effort - it just wasn't something I needed to do anymore). >> Just because Sri Ramana Maharishi became self-realized with very little effort (Sadhanas) in this birth does not mean that there are no qualifications such as Sadhana Chatustia or effort (Sadhana ) required for self-realization. All it means is that the person had already become 'ripe' by efforts in their previous births. Similarly - Just because someone starts to meditate after a TM initiation does not mean meditation requires no pre-requisites. All it means (as in the above example) is that the person may already have obtained the qualifications by previous effort. OR the meditation that is taught is NOT Meditation at all in the Patanjali sense of the word but rather a relaxation technique. Sri Sankara says there 1250000 different means for the mind to be in laya (absorbtion). So there are countless means including numerous relaxation techniques, manasika pujas, awareness techniques etc etc. Many of these techniques also produce the positive effects you mentioned such as "everything slowing down", tranquility etc etc. regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 | | Similarly - Just because someone starts to meditate after a TM | initiation does not mean meditation requires no pre-requisites. All | it means (as in the above example) is that the person may already | have obtained the qualifications by previous effort. | OR | the meditation that is taught is NOT Meditation at all in the | Patanjali sense of the word but rather a relaxation technique. Sri | Sankara says there 1250000 different means for the mind to | be in laya | (absorbtion). So there are countless means including numerous | relaxation techniques, manasika pujas, awareness techniques etc etc. | Many of these techniques also produce the positive effects you | mentioned such as "everything slowing down", tranquility etc etc. I'm sorry Sri Sundar, you are wrong. And if you want to carry on offending me and the line of Shankarcharyas by continuing to suggest that TM is some relaxation technique, please carry on doing so. You're a moderator here, it's your privilege. But please speak as you find, not as you assume. As someone once said, assume can be made from making an ass out of u and me. Yours signing off Blabbering Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 I'm sorry Sri Brian, you are wrong. <grin> >>You're a moderator here, it's your privilege. I am not a moderator of this group. We can continue this shouting match for ever or respectfully agree to disagree! or if you ever come to northern california, we can settle our differences ina positive way by sitting down in a nice long session of meditation and have a nice cup of tea or whatever you prefer afterwards. regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 What I have found in reading the posts since becoming a member is that many here can talk the talk but only a few are walking the walk. Learn to transcend on a regular bases and all your scripture will become clear. You will never come to God through your intellect. You only build your ego higher and higher. Jai Guru Dev Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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