Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 In a message dated 3/28/02 4:21:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, avsundarrajan writes: > Samadhi represents the ultimate control of mind..To suggest that > anybody upon initiation can repeatedly attain that state ?? well, you > see my drift here. > My dear Sri Sundar. Samadhi is not a control of mind. Virtually everyone (perhaps not some extremely tiny minority who try to enter defiantly) upon initiation can repeatedly attain the state of samadhi thereafter. Yes, that is a fact, even though difficult to believe, no doubt. I've initiated dozens upon dozens of fine folks from every walk of life and never has there been a one who was not amazed and enthralled with this most precious and profound samadhi phenomena, including some who were/are heavily steeped in various spiritual and esoteric traditions. Know, sir, that you are not the first who politely smiles in disbelief. Your drift above is well known and clearly understood. However, if you are really committed to spiritual growth, someday when the opportunity springs up you will allow yourself to become initiated into TM. Then you will quickly and directly come to personally see our difficulties, now, in trying to relate this good news to others. jai guru dev, Edmond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 | > TM, as a specific technique of meditation, requires no assessment | of the candidate's qualities. It's available to all, almost without | exception. | > | Before blabbering in haste, read carefully what is said in the | posting and reply to it properly. Terms like 'transcendental | consciousness' may appear big sounding and mumbo-jumbo rather than | Swami Sivananda's description of the aspirants that I posted. | | TM may require no qualifications and maybe available to all. The | question is what happens after the person goes home from the | initiation and tries to meditate 1, 2 , 5 months later? In my (blabbering) case, spontaneous siddhis (telepathy, compassion), rtambhara, and witnessing the Absolute. I was just reading the Web article you posted. It is VERY mixed, some good, some nonsense talk. It's not a good reference. And I apologise to you as one of this groups moderators, if this offends. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 Brian, > > In my (blabbering) case, spontaneous siddhis (telepathy, compassion), rtambhara, and witnessing the Absolute. > That is great. Good for you. As Swami Paramarthananda says every spiritual genius in this life must have done Sadhana in their previous birth and maybe you did in your last birth!. I have nothing against TM. I have great belief in the usefulness of meditation practices whether they be Buddhist Vipassana technique, TM or whatever. Essentially all the meditation techniques help turn the mind inward and that is good. It is good that TM is working out for you. But there are also lots and lots of people who got initiated, tried TM in the late seventies and dropped off the practice after a few weeks (based on my recollection from my college going days). Also, any spiritual practice that promises 'Instant' Samadhi after initiation has to be looked upon with a lot of suspicion in my opinion. Having lived in the west for over 14 years, I can see how 'Instant' success may appeal to the instant culture of the west. Why should the promise of 'Instant' Samadhi , Samadhi for one and all etc be viewed with suspicion? Gaudapada says in His Mandukya Karika that control of mind is like emptying the waters of an Ocean with a little blade of grass (scholars here can correct me - i am just quoting from memory). Samadhi represents the ultimate control of mind..To suggest that anybody upon initiation can repeatedly attain that state ?? well, you see my drift here. Anyway, I am digressing here. > > And I apologise to you as one of this groups moderators, if this > offends. Apology accepted. regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 | > | That is great. Good for you. As Swami Paramarthananda says every | spiritual genius in this life must have done Sadhana in their | previous birth and maybe you did in your last birth!. No re-incarnation going on here. No more or less than I'm part of you right now, and vice versa. | I have nothing against TM. I have great belief in the usefulness of | meditation practices whether they be Buddhist Vipassana | technique, TM | or whatever. Essentially all the meditation techniques help turn the | mind inward and that is good. TM is subtly different. Effortlessness is the key. It is good that TM is working out for | you. But there are also lots and lots of people who got initiated, | tried TM in the late seventies and dropped off the practice after a | few weeks (based on my recollection from my college going days). Yes, as I have noted in another post, the weakest link is the indiscipline that leads to sporadic practice or cessation (my own "downfall"). Western society is still skeptical about doing less and being more. We are getting better. Practicing Yoga and meditation is becoming more acceptable - becoming normal rather than weird behaviour. MMY and TM have had a lot to do with that shift in mentality. For many, it was "easy come, easy go". | Also, any spiritual practice that promises 'Instant' Samadhi after | initiation has to be looked upon with a lot of suspicion in my | opinion. Who claimed that? The TM movement got increasingly circumspect about making claims. Even its "Scientifically validated studies" are pretty understated. Having lived in the west for over 14 years, I can see | how 'Instant' success may appeal to the instant culture of the west. | | Why should the promise of 'Instant' Samadhi , Samadhi for | one and all | etc be viewed with suspicion? | Gaudapada says in His Mandukya Karika that control of mind is like | emptying the waters of an Ocean with a little blade of grass | (scholars here can correct me - i am just quoting from memory). | | Samadhi represents the ultimate control of mind..To suggest that | anybody upon initiation can repeatedly attain that state ?? | well, you | see my drift here. TM doesn't claim that you will achieve any particular "state" in each meditation. Indeed, it is careful to teach initiates to expect nothing during meditation, to not worry if thoughts keep arising. The thing of it is that it works by being practiced regularly over a long period of time. Deep rest mixed with renewed energy in activity. Integrating experience of subtler levels of consciousness with everyday life. But if you do that, you never know what might happen... | > And I apologise to you as one of this groups moderators, if this | > offends. | | Apology accepted. Please continue to accept my apologies, I'm afraid there's something deep rooted about this. Jai Guru Dev Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 In a message dated 3/29/02 2:58:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, avsundarrajan writes: > =============== Sadasiva Brahman's Yoga Sutra Commentary ==== > Yogah Chitta-Vritti-Nirodha (I.2) > Yoga is the restraint of the rajasic and tamasic Vrittis of the > chitta. > Yoga: From the root Yuj, meaning Samadhi or absorption, it follows > that Yogah stands for Samadhi. > The Meaning is that Yoga is the Nirodha (restraint) of > the Rajasic and Tamasic vrittis. Hence the definition covers (1) > Samprajnata Samadhi even though a Sattvic vritti is present in it and > (2) Asamprajnata Samadhi, characterised by the cessation of all > Vrittis. > ============================================================== > Yoga or Samadhi is restraint of vrittis, Samprajnata Samadhi is > characterised by complete one pointedness (ekagrata). Ekagrata or > onepointedness is due to pure Sattva and is NOT a natural state of > the mind but acheived only by effort (abhyasa). Even though Samadhi > is effortless, effort (control of mind) is required to get there (as > Sri Ramana Maharishi used to point out). > > regards > Sundar Rajan > Yes, as you say, yoga is a restraint, but not a willful beahvior done by the adherent, rather it is a restriction of mental fluctuations which occurs spontaneously as we become immersed in greater levels of samadhi. There is an overwhelming great difference in the affectations of awareness, whether we are trying to force mental fluctuations to cease (which cannot much be done anyhow) or whether the cessation is a completely natural phenomena that spontaneousl occurs without effort. Y1.2 Yoga is the restriction of fluctuations of consciousness. "yogas citta vrtti nirodhah" yoga consciousness fluctuations restriction Y1.3 Then the seer abides in his own form. "tadâ drastuh sva rûpe avasthânam" then seer own in-form abides The Seer abides in his own form whenever the fluctuations of consciousness become restricted, whenever they become stilled. The ancients called this yoga, the move toward unity. This is that most beautiful and joyous key part of Transcendental Meditation, the automatic and spontaneous natural stilling of mental fluctuations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/28/02 4:21:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > avsundarrajan writes: > > > > Samadhi represents the ultimate control of mind..To suggest that > > anybody upon initiation can repeatedly attain that state ?? well, you > > see my drift here. > > > > My dear Sri Sundar. Samadhi is not a control of mind. Dear Edmond, Control==Restraint. I used control to mean restraint. Samadhi taken in that context IS the ultimate control of mind because mind in Samadhi is completely one-pointed or completely controlled. If you don't agree with me, let me point you to Sri Sadasiva Brahman's commentary on Yoga Sutras called Prabodha Sudhakara (Sadasiva Brahman is a great and highly respected Yogi and Avadhuta. You can read about hime here http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/books/es93.htm) =============== Sadasiva Brahman's Yoga Sutra Commentary ==== Yogah Chitta-Vritti-Nirodha (I.2) Yoga is the restraint of the rajasic and tamasic Vrittis of the chitta. Yoga: From the root Yuj, meaning Samadhi or absorption, it follows that Yogah stands for Samadhi. The Meaning is that Yoga is the Nirodha (restraint) of the Rajasic and Tamasic vrittis. Hence the definition covers (1) Samprajnata Samadhi even though a Sattvic vritti is present in it and (2) Asamprajnata Samadhi, characterised by the cessation of all Vrittis. ============================================================== Yoga or Samadhi is restraint of vrittis, Samprajnata Samadhi is characterised by complete one pointedness (ekagrata). Ekagrata or onepointedness is due to pure Sattva and is NOT a natural state of the mind but acheived only by effort (abhyasa). Even though Samadhi is effortless, effort (control of mind) is required to get there (as Sri Ramana Maharishi used to point out). regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 | > My dear Sri Sundar. Samadhi is not a control of mind. | Dear Edmond, | | Control==Restraint. I used control to mean restraint. Samadhi taken | in that context IS the ultimate control of mind because mind in | Samadhi is completely one-pointed or completely controlled. No! This is wrong word use. Samadhi is effortless (as you remind us below). If you used an active verb like control or restraint it implies doing something, whereas one has to let go of the processes of the mind to enter this state. How one starts the process is another matter (and is exactly why TM and Sahaj Marg meditation are so effective). The etymology of nirodha is something like "pass through" - an expression that we could use would be "transcend". It is the essence of the Yoga Sutras in one "bija" sutra: yogash citta vritti nirodhah Yoga comes from transcending the processes of individual consciousness | If you don't agree with me, let me point you to Sri Sadasiva | Brahman's commentary on Yoga Sutras called Prabodha Sudhakara | (Sadasiva Brahman is a great and highly respected Yogi and Avadhuta. | You can read about hime here | http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/books/es93.htm) | | =============== Sadasiva Brahman's Yoga Sutra Commentary ==== | Yogah Chitta-Vritti-Nirodha (I.2) | Yoga is the restraint of the rajasic and tamasic Vrittis of the | chitta. Why introduce only 2 of three gunas? This is a distortion of that Sutra based on Vyasa's commentaries. | Yoga: From the root Yuj, meaning Samadhi or absorption, it follows | that Yogah stands for Samadhi. Yoga = union, union of what? Samadhi = what? | The Meaning is that Yoga is the Nirodha (restraint) of | the Rajasic and Tamasic vrittis. Hence the definition covers (1) | Samprajnata Samadhi even though a Sattvic vritti is present | in it | (2) Asamprajnata Samadhi, characterised by the cessation of all | Vrittis. | ============================================================== | Yoga or Samadhi is restraint of vrittis, Samprajnata Samadhi is | characterised by complete one pointedness (ekagrata). Ekagrata or | onepointedness is due to pure Sattva and is NOT a natural state of | the mind but acheived only by effort (abhyasa). Even though Samadhi | is effortless, effort (control of mind) is required to get there (as | Sri Ramana Maharishi used to point out). It is only when effort has been relinquished that Samadhi is acheived. But we agree that we need some wilful notion to start the process. Ekagrata is what happens, naturally, when attention focuses on a single object, (in TM the mantra, in Sahaj Marg, the Heart), then, with God's grace might we go beyond to that "forgotten country", tadah drastuh svarupe vasthanam - then is one absorbed in the essence of the inner witness. Subtle introduction of thought into Samadhi is what? Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 edmeasure [edmeasure] Thursday, March 28, 2002 5:20 PM advaitin Re: Re: Aaaargh In a message dated 3/28/02 4:21:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, avsundarrajan writes: > Samadhi represents the ultimate control of mind..To suggest that > anybody upon initiation can repeatedly attain that state ?? well, you > see my drift here. > My dear Sri Sundar. Samadhi is not a control of mind. Virtually everyone (perhaps not some extremely tiny minority who try to enter defiantly) upon initiation can repeatedly attain the state of samadhi thereafter. Yes, that is a fact, even though difficult to believe, no doubt. I've initiated dozens upon dozens of fine folks from every walk of life and never has there been a one who was not amazed and enthralled with this most precious and profound samadhi phenomena, including some who were/are heavily steeped in various spiritual and esoteric traditions. Know, sir, that you are not the first who politely smiles in disbelief. Your drift above is well known and clearly understood. However, if you are really committed to spiritual growth, someday when the opportunity springs up you will allow yourself to become initiated into TM. Then you will quickly and directly come to personally see our difficulties, now, in trying to relate this good news to others. jai guru dev, Edmond Namaste Edmondji. You presumption to judge Sri Sundarji commitment to spiritual growth (because he is not "initiated" in TM is highly problematic). Your suggestion that Sri Sundarji run to nearest TM teacher to get his mantra and enter into Samadhi borders on the comical. You are certainly entitled to, and welcome to, have full confidence in whatever path you are walking and call yourself a siddha and so on. We can also refer to you as our local list siddha to make you feel at home if you wish. On the other side, it may be good to keep in mind that the list has some highly experienced people from a variety of traditions. Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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