Psychology and Metaphysics-5

[Guest guest]

Psychology and Metaphysics 5

 

The Archeoductive and Partyabhinjnana

 

We have gained a very useful insight more in the way RECOGNIZING what is already

there and here I am reminded of both Plato' doctrine of reminicense and the

essence of Kashmir Saivism with their emphasize on Pratya-bhijnaa which I take

to mean : conjoining self with Pure Consciousness already there. And Meykandar's

declaration that the highest in understanding is already there ( anRee

iruppatu). Our inquiry then is NOT that of inventing constructing coming up

with various metaphysical systems of our own making and trying to show that it

fits the world, explains well the empirical truths so forth. ( sometimes

throwing in some authorities for this!) On the contrary it is simply a journey

of DISCOVERY or REDISCOVERY that I

would call LEARNING only because there is becoming very clear of what is

perhaps present already and we are aware only dimly if at all. In such

inquiries we BREAK THROUGH the concealment that seems to prevail and makes us

UNCONSCIOUS of such things. They are there but buried in the psychic depths and

what we are doing is something like the archeological activity of digging into

the buried layers and bringing into the OPEN the many things there. This

movement of the mind in which I am involved in this inquiry and in which those

who are with me also participate , I will call ARCHEODUCTIVE movement, the

movement of the mind into its own depths and which I think also the substance of

the Yoga exercises when

it is not concerned with reducing the excess fat on the body and such mundane

matters but rather gaining the metaphysical illuminations.

 

The Metaphysics of Denial: The Photonic Buddhism

 

Then I immediately notice that there comes denials of sorts to this

understanding only because they see that such an understanding would inevitably

lead to the notion of BEING who appears more popularly as the God and a hence a

religious way of life. For some individuals this is NOT acceptable especially

where there has been so much atrocities inhuman practices and madness bordering

the maniacal in the name of religion. Glowing in the NOTHINGNESS of Sunyata or

Brahman or Civapirakasaam or Arutperunjcooti and so forth seems to be so PURE

and so pleasing to the mind.

 

So another line metaphysical thinking seems to develop but now on the conviction

of the TRUTH of this Purifying effect of Sunyata. It breeds a universality, an

OPENNESS in which the crazy intentionalities of the religious can be seem as

something inconsequential, unimportant , supremely irrelevant and so forth.

 

Thus begins the act of DENIAL - there are processes but NO HIERARCHICAL

organization. Consciousness is a stream, a flow a flux and it cascades

spontaneously and on its own, flashes of photonic energies that are bundle up on

their own into various patterns and because of which several kinds of Gestalts

emerge and dominate the mind. In fact EVERYTHING is a bundle of such photonic

flashes organizing itself into sustainable Gestalts . The human self , the body

, the cognitive processes and so forth are such Gestalts, bundles of photonic

flashes and nothing else. There is NO SELF as a substantial entity that

underlies these processes -- the self can be dispersed into the photonic

flashes, energies of consciousness.

 

In this we have something like the KaNapaGka Vaatam of the Buddhists to whom the

idea of SELF as that underlying the flow of consciousness was a nightmare, an

anathema -- they simply couldn't sleep with it in peace.

 

But here we notice that it is simply a WISH and not a genuine seeking of TRUTH.

The so called

philosophical articulations are simply intellectual exercises to rationalize and

justify a DISTASTE they had for the implications of the recognition that there

are processes transpersonal as already there and which shape human behavior by

configuring the intentionalities.

 

Such Buddhists metaphysics are designed to provide an ALTERNATIVE picture of the

universal processes in which intentionalities have no place and also the need

for Self BEING and so forth. And so I find myself parting company with them for

I am not interested in FALSE METAPHYSICS no matter how inventive they are. They

serve as distracters of my inquiry into TRUTH and are important only to the

extend that they disclose to me that in the name of Metaphysics there can be the

FALSE ONES that mislead me and imprison in me in some WISH-WORLDS.

 

The Metaphysics of Denial : Advaita Vedanta

 

Another way of denying the implications of the truths above is to accept the

Sunyata and as the

PERMANENT possibility, as something that hovers there indestructible , the

Brahman and which I can be too. My self is actually this Brahman, the meaning of

life is the attainment this Brahman-Self of myself, that is the Atman, the

genuine Self. But then why are there these average and nonaverage individuals

without such an understanding?

 

Such individuals are the DELUDED, they live in a world of various kinds of

illusions and all because of the mental mechanisms of adyasa aroopitam etc.,

mental mechanisms that are similar to those that make one see falsely a rope as

a snake and so forth. These poor creatures are DELUDED and because of which they

take the irreal as real and SUFFER immensely! The way out is of course to sit

at the feet of aBrahmaNjani, the one who has freed himself from this delusion

and through SaravaNam Mananam Nittyasanam and so forth

focus on the inner significance of the makavaakkyas of Aham Brahmasmi, Tat Twam

Asi and so forth and thereby FREE oneself of these delusions and sustain oneself

in the understanding that one is essentially Brahman-Self.

 

This perhaps is what is going as Vedanta or at least some trends in it.

 

I immediately notice that there is SOME TRUTH in it for Sunyata is not something

that disappears but rather exists there at the deepest recesses of all as a

permanent possiblity. But then are the average and nonaverage persons living

in delusions as it seems to imply? Isn't it also the case that what they are

experiencing also TRUTHS of a kind ? And in the course of ordinary life , even

though I can be crazy , mad and insane, isn't there

something I LEARN about myself and the world just as an ordinary individual? I

am a woman though beautiful and approached by many men , but realize that

marriage is not for me. I have no taste for sexual happiness. I am a man very

wealthy but somehow NOT happy because my children haven't grown up to my

expectations etc. And so on and on -- all the stuff of the life of the ordinary

people.

 

These things all a sudden become delusions and illusions and hence NOT

experiences in which I LEARN though what I learn may be physical and not

metaphysical.

 

So I find that I cannot go along with this kind of Vedantic thinking ( perhaps

close to Sankara) for it seems to deny the fact I LEARN both as an average and

nonaverage person

 

I do not live in Maayam, a magical world of fantasies, illusions and delusions,

all the time and the ordinary physical world in which I live TEACHES me a lot

and I come to know a lot of TRUTHS in living as such. Even within the Physical I

can recognize the Divine in the beauties that fill the landscape, the charms of

my beloved wife , in the giggles of my young child who has just come into the

world rather miraculously. And when I trod into the garden and note the infinity

productive vitality of the banana tree and the wild grass and plants that grow

there against my wishes , I am LEARNING something about the world. And though I

may NOT be sufficiently well tuned to understand the HIDDEN possibilities

lurking within my depths, but I

am most certain that I am NOT living in illusion and delusions, in fantasies and

so forth just because I still remain IGNORANT of such deep metaphysical

possibilities.

 

And so I part company with these Vedanties too just I had with some Buddhists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=======================================================

Dear friends! You are most welcome to visit the following websites I maintain:

 

For World Saivism : http://ulagan.tripod.com/index.htm

For Dravidian Philosophy: http://loga.tripod.com/tindex.htm

For Agamic Psychology :

http://ulagank.tripod.com/agapsyindex.htm

For ArutkuRaL studies:

http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/index.html

For studies of Tamil Sacred scriptures in

English: http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/tmcampus/tmc-open.html

For SumeroTamil and related studies:

http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/sumstudies/sumcampus.html

=======================================================

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Dr. Loganathan:

 

Thanks for sharing your insights and observation on Buddhism and

Advaita. I want to focus my reply with respect to your summary

description of Advaita and quick conclusions. I fully respect your

observations and conclusions but I disagree. Great philosophical

giants including Sri Ramanujacharyar and Madhwacharyar have raised

similar doubts and none of the other philosophical theses including

Shiva Siddhantham is free from criticisms. All that we can say that

"Truth can't be established using intellectual logic alone," and it is

an established fact that Truth is beyond intellect.

 

Please don't mistake me that I am not saying that we shouldn't

conceptualize and use intellectual logic for greater understanding.

But I want to emphasize that we need to understand our limitation, and

try to find the means of going beyond our intellectual capacity and

learn to substitute `wisdom' for `knowledge'. First and foremost,

we should keep an open mind, try to learn and understand an unfamiliar

territory thoroughly before jumping into quick conclusions. With

your enthusiasm, it is quite possible for you to go over more than

13,000 discussions that are available in the list archives that are

directly or indirectly related to the Advaita Philosophy. A number

of other scholars like you have raised substantial questions and

doubts regarding the validity of Advaita Philosophy and such doubts

have been thoroughly discussed during the past four years. The

purpose of this forum is to enhance our understanding of the

fundamental question, "Who Am I?" and the list has thoroughly

discussed plausible explanations and has provided appropriate

references and supporting documents.

 

List Archives with over 1300 discussions are available at:

WEBsite1: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ Latest postings are

available and members can search the archive using

author/title/keywords.

WEBsite2: advaitin/messages

 

A vast collection of Advaita related materials are made available in

the file folder and the list bookmarks describe links to sites with

potential answers to your questions.

URL: advaitin

URL: advaitin/links

 

Advaitin List Webspace Bookmarks: The list has collected an extensive

list of bookmarks (links) to sites and has classified them into eleven

folders as follows: They are available at:

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lectures on Shankara Bhaashya )

Ramanashram (Arunachalam - Ramana Maharshi Ashram)

Saints (Saints of India)

 

In your introduction, you have stated that you want to learn about

Advaita Philosophy and this list forum want to assure you that you

will have ample of opportunities to interact with learned members of

this list. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on Advaita Vedanta,

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

dear Ram Chandran, your words hit the mark, yes we need to use the mind to

gain understanding to undo the ignorance. finally we have to drop the

correct understanding to be true SELF. the mind always wants to know more

and more it is never satisfied, our minds must finally surrender to the TRUE

GURU to be at peace. the ego of the mind is always ready to disturb our

natural peaceful state. this false i must be exposed constantly for the

phantom it is. this is the practice not playing and juggling with many

concepts......yours truly...jaya

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Ram,

 

As I said , as a true Hindu, I want to think out for myself. I have  done my

part of

scholarship and writing of books and articles and which I am continuing. Perhaps

what I am

doing is something like the Cartesian meditations, an exercise in coming to

terms with my

metaphysical thoughts. So let me briefly attend to some of the points you have

raised.

 

ramvchandran wrote:

> Namaste  Dr. Loganathan:

>

> Thanks for sharing your insights and observation on Buddhism and

> Advaita. I want to focus my reply with respect to your summary

> description of Advaita and quick conclusions.  I fully respect your

> observations and conclusions but I disagree. Great philosophical

> giants including Sri Ramanujacharyar and Madhwacharyar have raised

> similar doubts and none of the other philosophical theses including

> Shiva Siddhantham is free from criticisms. All that we can say that

> "Truth can't be established using intellectual logic alone," and it is

> an established fact that Truth is beyond intellect.

 

Loga:

 

Agreed but what I am not clear is the meaning of "intellectual logic". If you

mean by this the

kind Aristotelian Syllogistic Logic, then I agree with you. If you mean by that

the Axiomatic

Logic and which has developed into Mathematical Logic with the work of Russell

and Whitehead

with their monumental " Principia Mathematica" then I agree with you. If you

mean by that the

Naiyayika Logic  where it is claimed Piramaa karaNam piramaaNam, i.e.  that

there are certain

measures that ensures TRUTH , here too I agree with.  But if you mean the kind

of Hermeneutic

Logic as articulated in Tolkaappiyam Marapiyal ( 3rd Cent. BCC) then I tend to

disagree with

you.  There is a LOGIC implicit in my inquiry for there is systematic flow of

thought and which

illuminates the mind and hence immensely RATIONAL and which finally leads to a

state of Being

where such rational inquiry is made to fall naturally.  We see this in the words

of Sambantar "

eetukkaLaalum edutta mozikaLaalum mikku cootikka veeNdaa, cudarntneruLLan cooti

emperuman" and

which was directed at the Buddhists who were articulating a kind of Positivism

in which the

Agama PiramaaNa and hence the metaphysical world was not admitted. ( available

in maNimekalai)

 

In the  course of this inquiry I will attend to this as well. But if you are 

curious  and keen

to know right now they are available in my Azivil uNmai (Tamil) , eeraNaviyal

which is  being

serialized in  Meykandar. Soon it will be uploaded in the World Saivism Campus.

 

( If the lsit members are interested in its summaries in English, then I will do

that as well)

>  

>

> Please don't mistake me that I am not saying that we shouldn't

> conceptualize and use intellectual logic for greater understanding.

> But I want to emphasize that we need to understand our limitation, and

> try to find the means of going beyond our intellectual capacity and

> learn to substitute `wisdom' for `knowledge'.  First and foremost,

> we should keep an open mind, try to learn and understand an unfamiliar

> territory thoroughly before jumping into quick conclusions.

 

Loga:

 

Precisely. Openness is the requirement of the day and this is what I am

practicing, I believe, 

and in  which I am equally critical  of Saiva Siddhanta but certainly open to it

where there is

TRUTH in it and to other schools of thought.  In fact my philosophical carrier

started with

mastering Meykandar not submissively but rather in critical vein. Since all our

minds are

limited, including that of Vedantins,  I believe the insights I have gained in

this and which

may not be the way of others has some merits along with some demerits in it. I

am fully aware

of that and as a person committed to Mey KaaNal-- seeking and seeing TRUTH I

want to be careful

as well so that I don't go about blissfully in UNTRUTHS just because it was

inherited by me as

the traditional lore that conditions my cultural life.

 

Loga

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin wrote:

In your introduction, you have stated that you want to learn about

Advaita Philosophy and this list forum want to assure you that you

will have ample of opportunities to interact with learned members of

this list. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on Advaita Vedanta

 

 

Advaitin Satsang,

 

 

Namaskarams and Happy Tamil New Year !

 

 

Reference to Shri Ramchandranji's mail, I agree with his concluding remarks.

 

 

Dr Lokanathan has no doubt, spent a life time researching his perspectives.

However this is Advaitin eGroups and we are not like Saloon.com etc which is

intellectual about everything. If others have a perspective substantially

different, it is right and proper that they have their own groups. This forum is

not to be made a gateway to general discussion of philosophies of the world or

for that matter, acknowledged scholarship in other areas.

 

 

Our agenda is to focus on the "content and process" of Advaitin philosophy with

special emphasis on Adi Shankara. The time is limited in terms of immediate

availability as well as this life span, working in our own ways, towards Moksha.

 

 

I suggest to the moderators that at the time of joining, those with diferent

views- opposed to, or rejecting advaitin- be invited, as "Honored Guests" for a

limited period of one month, as contra-views could be heard to refine our own

thinking but we should not be swayed from main purpose.

 

 

While it is good to know about Dr Lokanathan's accomplishments, we should shift

the emphasis back to Advaitin related & reinforcing topics.

 

 

With Pranams.

 

 

P.B.V. Rajan

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste all!

 

I fully agree with Shri P.B.V. Rajan.

 

I have painstakingly gone through all the posts of Dr. Lokanathan.

While I can appreciate his academic achievements, the "metaphysical"

conclusions that he is endeavouring at are not in any way useful to

us aspiring advaitins.

 

He joined the forum with the stated purpose of learning about

advaita. However, by the time he concluded his fourth post, no one

is in any doubt that he has already parted ways with it as he has

done with Budhhism.

 

There are many loopholes in Dr. Lokanathan's arguments and hasty

conclusions. This, however, is not the place to express them. Yet,

some of his endeavours at etymology are rather far-fetched. For

instance, the way he relates the Sanskrit word "aalayam" (It is there

in Tamil and Malayalam too.) to the Tamil "aalmaram" (banyan tree)!

Perhaps, one has to first of all master Tamil to understand Dr.

Lokanathan better as he extensively draws on Tamil sources. That, of

course, is not immediately possible and practicable to most members

here.

 

There certainly is a lull in advaitic discussions. May be it is the

trough after that adhyaasa crest.

 

Pranams to all advaitins.

 

Madathil Nair

 

___________

 

(advaitin, "pbvrajan" <pbvrajan@i...> wrote:

>

>

>

> advaitin wrote:

> In your introduction, you have stated that you want to learn about

> Advaita Philosophy and this list forum want to assure you that you

> will have ample of opportunities to interact with learned members

of

> this list. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on Advaita Vedanta

>

>

> Advaitin Satsang,

>

>

> Namaskarams and Happy Tamil New Year !

>

>

> Reference to Shri Ramchandranji's mail, I agree with his concluding

remarks.

>

>

> Dr Lokanathan has no doubt, spent a life time researching his

perspectives. However this is Advaitin eGroups and we are not like

Saloon.com etc which is intellectual about everything. If others have

a perspective substantially different, it is right and proper that

they have their own groups. This forum is not to be made a gateway to

general discussion of philosophies of the world or for that matter,

acknowledged scholarship in other areas.

>

>

> Our agenda is to focus on the "content and process" of Advaitin

philosophy with special emphasis on Adi Shankara. The time is limited

in terms of immediate availability as well as this life span, working

in our own ways, towards Moksha.

>

>

> I suggest to the moderators that at the time of joining, those with

diferent views- opposed to, or rejecting advaitin- be invited,

as "Honored Guests" for a limited period of one month, as contra-

views could be heard to refine our own thinking but we should not be

swayed from main purpose.

>

>

> While it is good to know about Dr Lokanathan's accomplishments, we

should shift the emphasis back to Advaitin related & reinforcing

topics.

>

>

> With Pranams.

>

>

> P.B.V. Rajan

>

>

>

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at

http://email.indiatimes.com

> Buy Music, Video, CD-ROM, Audio-Books and Music Accessories from

http://www.planetm.co.in

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

I am quite confused about the reactions perhaps all because for the time being I

have found it

difficult to reconcile certain imlpications of Advaita Philosophy and as

interpreted by me.

This negative reaction is quite puzzling especially in view of what  has been

stated  as the

policy  of this group viz.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...

 

                   The list   will support spiritual discussions related to

                   Vaishnavam, Shivam, Buddihsm, Jainism and others.   This

forum facilitates

friendly and

                  meaningful discussions with following goals: To understand the

nature of  

Ultimate

                  Reality.   To comprehend self-realization and   transform that

to actions

that are good for

                  the society. To describe such realizations and actions using

simple but crisp

language for

                  easy understanding. To motivate beginners in philosophy to

study and

appreciate the

                  message of   Scriptures. To help members to develop an

attitude to appreciate

the good

                  in every human being with an open mind.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

I don't  think I have been unfriendly or purely negative being very sincere in

my inquiries.

Yes I use Tamil and Sumero Tamil and so forth but all with sufficient research.

I think the

best the list can do is to point out in what way I am wrong both in my

etymological studies and

philsophical arguments if they think it is worth spending the valuable time on

it. This will be

consistent with the stated goal of "to help members to develop an attitude to

appreciate the

good in every human being with an open mind"

 

I believe that  what passes for TRUTH if goes unexamined cannot be appropriated

as TRUTH-- it

will remain simply a believe of some people who have closed their mind to

alternative views.

The thoughts I express  as a philosophic individual seeking out TRUTH and

cosistent with the

Upanishadic  dictum Satyam Eva Jayate  should  therefore stimulate further

thinking about

Advaita Vedanta and all directed towards TRUTH which is NOT the monopoly of any

one group. Who

knows they may bring out certain perspectives that are useful and perhaps not

highlighted so

far. The hundreds of Advaitin here can do that agaimst me the one person who may

a bit

different.

 

Any way if the members feel my thoughts  disturb their piece of mind, I shall

stop posting here

and continue with my other usual groups with the feeling that advaitins cannot

face criticism

even put gently and with all the politeness possible by a person who is very

serious in his

efforts to understand the Ultimate Reality  --also a stated objective of the

group.

 

 

Loga

 

madathilnair wrote:

> Namaste all!

>

> I fully agree with Shri P.B.V. Rajan.

>

> I have painstakingly gone through all the posts of Dr. Lokanathan.

> While I can appreciate his academic achievements, the "metaphysical"

> conclusions that he is endeavouring at are not in any way useful to

> us aspiring advaitins.

>

> He joined the forum with the stated purpose of learning about

> advaita.  However, by the time he concluded his fourth post, no one

> is in any doubt that he has already parted ways with it as he has

> done with Budhhism.

>

> There are many loopholes in Dr. Lokanathan's arguments and hasty

> conclusions.  This, however, is not the place to express them.  Yet,

> some of his endeavours at etymology are rather far-fetched.  For

> instance, the way he relates the Sanskrit word "aalayam" (It is there

> in Tamil and Malayalam too.) to the Tamil "aalmaram" (banyan tree)!

> Perhaps, one has to first of all master Tamil to understand Dr.

> Lokanathan better as he extensively draws on Tamil sources.  That, of

> course, is not immediately possible and practicable to most members

> here.

>

> There certainly is a lull in advaitic discussions.  May be it is the

> trough after that adhyaasa crest.

>

> Pranams to all advaitins.

>

> Madathil Nair

>  

>