Psychology and Metaphysics-6

[Guest guest]

Psychology and Metaphysics-6

 

Let us hold onto the little clarities we have attained as the anchor to move

further on. We have seen that the human beings can delude themselves with the

Metaphysics of Denial of the Ordinary World, of the commonsensical daily

experience but all in the laudable interest of being in the Brilliance of

Sunyata or Brahman-Self , the Atman as the Vedantins are prone to describe. We

are in agreement as far as this goes and we shall see that this is NOT the end

of the matter but rather only a beginning. There are Deeper Truths hidden in

this claim and we shall interrogate that as well later.

 

But it is clear that and against these metaphysics of Denial that the world is

not simply a cascade of photon-like energy pulses that generate various kinds of

Gestalts that give the impression of permanence where as a matter of fact there

is NOTHING of the sort as in the experience of the Paramartika as opposed to the

worldly viyavakarika they do not prevail and condition the mind. This is

certainly not the case as the SELF exists as the experiencer of even this

Paramartika stage having elevated itself from the Viyavakarika. We cannot go

along also with the Vedantins who keep on repeating ad nauseam that all these

are because of

names and forms ( nama rupa) and once the mind is FREED of names , it will

automatically shine forth as the Brahman-Self and that this is only possible in

the presence of the Sad Guru etc. But the immensely ODD thing here is that all

these are stated in words and that even such names as Sadguru Brahman Atman and

so forth are WORDS. It is THOROUGH words that even these Vedantins communicate

betraying an inner contradiction between what say and do.

 

But nevertheless we can see something good that they are hinting at : the

primary trouble in the world is the identities to which we ATTACH ourselves and

which are realized because of NAMES : I am a Muslim, a Christian, a Saiva , a

VaishNava, a Vedantin, a Siddhantin and so forth. But the solution to this is

NOT to distrust words but arise from the state of linguistic way of being to

that beyond language, to the state of Deep Silence as the language of

communication. But we shall attend to that later and now concentrate on

something

more immediate.

 

Why am I the CLINGING type of individual, who clings to this now to that later

and sometimes even lost and confused because I have nothing to cling onto as

raft to swim against the stream of life and maintain myself in some sanity?

 

The Fantasy and the Factual

 

Yes, in the moments of crisis I fantasize, imagine the impossible , day dream ,

built castles in the air, to creation myths, to the notion of flying

saucers, to the notion of strange creatures from outer space having come down

to the earth and initiating civilization and so on and on. Such purely mental

acrobatics are endless. That some people IMAGINE thus is a TRUTH but what they

imagine about is an UNTRUTH, a pure mental fiction.

 

So we see then that there are INTENTIONALITIES of various kinds in which in

addition to

UNDERSTANDING the FACTUAL structure of the world and existence in general, the

FACTICITY of existence, there is also departing from it and indulging perhaps in

mental exercises that are of the type adhyasa aaropitam and so forth. But these

are too INTENTIONALITIES -- wishes of sorts. I have a CHOICE to fantasize thus

or remain FREE of such imaginations and note reality as it is and understand

things as they in

themselves or Heidegger would say, understand them as disclose themselves from

within themselves that the Tamils in Tolkaappiyam period called Iyal NeRi, the

noting of things as they are in the world.

 

Thus there are TWO different ways in which NAMES enter into our mind -- one

through fantasizing and another through accommodating ourselves to the FACTICAL.

That the object in my Garden is a Mango Tree is NOT vain imagination but

accommodating myself to a FACT. But when I go on to say that That is Haunted ,

there is Ghost living in it, that may be a fiction , an imagination. And this

difference is shown by the fact another would AGREE with me as to the tree

begin a Mango Tree while he may to my claim that it is haunted.

 

Death and Nasunyata or Maalam

 

Now another FACTICAL thing about existence is that there is DEATH in various

ways. There are elements of Mental Death where memory is lost and because of

which I cannot RECALL anything. I may lose also my CONSCIOUSNESS and remain in

a death-like comma for several days and recover and begin to recognize later

and all because of good medical care. I may also become schizophrenic psychotic

insane and so forth because the capacity to process the stimuli from the

environment and act accordingly is DEAD, already snatched away from me and which

makes me a lunatic, mad.

 

And despite all these I may just die a natural death or an unnatural death. I

may even choose to commit suicide and put an end to my existence.

 

Thus DEATH is NOT a fiction, a matter simply there only because we name it. In

naming DEATH and allied experiences as related to it, I am accommodating myself

to FACTICITY, what is there in the fabric of the world process.

 

Thus over and above the consciousness endowing processes I notice now there are

consciousness- depriving processes, processes that snatch away the various forms

of consciousness I enjoy. And I notice that this APPLIES to the WHOLE WORLD, to

this VAST COSMOS itself. This whole world can be wiped out , caused to DIE and

disappear !

 

At this point we notice that there will NOT be this Sunyata, this BRAHMAN too.

When the vast cosmos is DEAD only DARKNESS prevails -- a notion that the

Saivites accommodate in their metaphysics and acknowledge the presence of Maalam

( the aanava malam in both Kashmir saivism and Saiva Siddhanta) as the cause of

it.

 

Thus we have to see that over and above the possibility of shining in Sunyata or

as the Brahman-Self, there is also the possibility of being deprived of it all

by something that is there is the world as a reality, as something there beyond

my mental constructs and imaginations.

 

Death is an event in the world that the world as a whole may also suffer and

this certainly is NOT my fiction, a matter that is there because of names

 

(to continue) 6

 

 

 

 

 

=======================================================

Dear friends! You are most welcome to visit the following websites I maintain:

 

For World Saivism : http://ulagan.tripod.com/index.htm

For Dravidian Philosophy: http://loga.tripod.com/tindex.htm

For Agamic Psychology :

http://ulagank.tripod.com/agapsyindex.htm

For ArutkuRaL studies:

http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/index.html

For studies of Tamil Sacred scriptures in

English: http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/tmcampus/tmc-open.html

For SumeroTamil and related studies:

http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/sumstudies/sumcampus.html

=======================================================

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

 

I am not a scholar, a psychologist, an academician. However, I have

read all your posts with meticulous care and endeavoured my best to

understand your ideas.

 

That you don't to vedanta and Budhdhism is already clear to

all of us here. However, you persist to send posts to this forum, to

the thought of which you don't , because you believe you

have an alternative better than advaita to offer. What that

alternative is like is still not clear to me. You seem to believe in

keeping all of us in suspense!

 

I can be critical about many points in your posts. But, as I said, I

don't believe this is the right forum to express such opnion and our

moderators have already made it clear before. However, permit me to

mention your following two important conclusions which I cannot

digest at all as a very common thinking being and an aspiring

advaitin:

 

Firstly, in your earlier posts, you concluded that when human beings

confront soonyatha, they tend to exhbit a defensive "non-average"

behaviour in order to vindicate, substantiate and justify their

being. (These may not be your exact words but your thought as I

understood it.) Agreed, such aberrations are possible, particularly

if you have in mind the post-World War II European intelligensia that

grew beards and lamented the pointlessness of existence, the western

youth fed up and frustrated with material comforts, who took the

wrold to drugs with him. But, you seem to apply this even to the

present day terrorists who include those guys who crashed those jumbo

jets into the WTC towers! That type of thinking is an outrage on

anybody's sensibility, Sir! To say those headless fanatics "tasted"

soonyatha, a concept that requires a high degree of intellectual

capability to appreciate, is the height of absurdity. They had no

sense of soonyatha. They knew what they were doing. They did not

belong to a faith that has the concept of soonyatha at all, even an

iota of it, anywhere in their thinking. They were trying to force on

the world what they thought was right and, from that point of view,

they very much believed in this world, the life therein and

the "promise" that lay thereafter!

 

The second outrageous conclusion is in your latest post and quoted

below. You have killed soonyatha and brahman - both in one clean

stroke! Let the Buddhists rush in to rescue soonyatha if they want.

But as for our brahman, you have already said that DARKNESS will

prevail and failed to mention who will be there to "see" that

residual darkness! That "who" is what we advaitins are all after,

whether we accept your scenario or not.

 

I wrote this only because you asked for an explanation in one of your

previous posts and I thought that you deserved one. Forgive me, if I

have been very frank in expressing my sentiments.

 

Thanks and best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

_____________________________

 

advaitin, "Dr.K.Loganathan" <subas@p...> wrote:

> Psychology and Metaphysics-6>

>

>

> Thus DEATH is NOT a fiction, a matter simply there only because we

name it. In naming DEATH and allied experiences as related to it, I

am accommodating myself to FACTICITY, what is there in the fabric of

the world process.

>

> Thus over and above the consciousness endowing processes I notice

now there are consciousness- depriving processes, processes that

snatch away the various forms of consciousness I enjoy. And I notice

that this APPLIES to the WHOLE WORLD, to this VAST COSMOS itself.

This whole world can be wiped out , caused to DIE and disappear !

>

> At this point we notice that there will NOT be this Sunyata, this

BRAHMAN too. When the vast cosmos is DEAD only DARKNESS prevails --

a notion that the Saivites accommodate in their metaphysics and

acknowledge the presence of Maalam ( the aanava malam in both

Kashmir saivism and Saiva Siddhanta) as the cause of it.

>

> Thus we have to see that over and above the possibility of shining

in Sunyata or as the Brahman-Self, there is also the possibility of

being deprived of it all by something that is there is the world as a

reality, as something there beyond my mental constructs and

imaginations.

>

> Death is an event in the world that the world as a whole may also

suffer and this certainly is NOT my fiction, a matter that is there

because of names

>

> (to continue) 6

>

>

>

>

>

>

=======================================================

> Dear friends! You are most welcome to visit the following websites

I maintain:

>

> For World Saivism :

http://ulagan.tripod.com/index.htm

> For Dravidian Philosophy:

http://loga.tripod.com/tindex.htm

> For Agamic Psychology :

http://ulagank.tripod.com/agapsyindex.htm

> For ArutkuRaL studies:

http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/index.html

> For studies of Tamil Sacred scriptures in

> English:

http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/tmcampus/tmc-open.html

> For SumeroTamil and related studies:

>

http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/sumstudies/sumcampus.html

>

=======================================================

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Madathilnair:

 

Thanks for bringing some valid points to the attention of Dr.

Loganathan. While reading Dr. Loganathan's postings, I am of

the opinion (it is only my impression and others may or may not agree)

that they are more like reading newsitems in newspapers - lots of news

but without substantive facts. Such news items may be useful to some

but or others they are quite irrelevant especially those who have no

interest on such news.

 

Specifically, this list focuses its discussions mostly on advaita

philosophy and related materials. In this context, the materials

presented by Dr. Loganathan does not appear relevant. Any new

ideas criticising existing philosophies need lots of supporting

references and facts. This is only my personal opinion, and it is

quite possible that I could be wrong! If Dr. Loganathan feels that I

am wrong, let me express my sincere apologies. I do respect Dr.

Loganathan's enthusiasm and his willingness to share his scholarship

with the list members. I wish that he takes little more time to review

the Advaita Philsophy before offering his conclusions.

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> Dear Sir,

>

> I am not a scholar, a psychologist, an academician. However, I have

> read all your posts with meticulous care and endeavoured my best to

> understand your ideas.

>

> That you don't to vedanta and Budhdhism is already clear

to

> all of us here.

[Guest guest]

advaitin Mr. Nair wrote:I am not a scholar, a psychologist, an

academician. However, I have ead all your posts with meticulous care and

endeavoured my best to understand your ideas.That you don't to vedanta

and Budhdhism is already clear to all of us here. However, you persist to send

posts to this forum, to the thought of which you don't

 

 

Dear Nairji,

 

 

Hari Om

 

 

You have spoken for most of us and well said.

 

 

I think the best that can be done is not to extend this discussion further as it

will only extend arguments and take time from waht we want to hear. Yes, we

should have some idea of contra-ideas and we have it now, but we have to follow

our goal. We can't be running after every new idea just because the propenent is

more persuasive in repeating them. We all are interested in the direction of

Advaita and self-realization through proven traditional methods. If there are

other ways, let other groups follow them.

 

 

Pranams to all

 

 

P.B.V.Rajan

 

 

 

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com

Buy Music, Video, CD-ROM, Audio-Books and Music Accessories from

http://www.planetm.co.in

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

I made this same appeal to him while I was a member in his (Dr Loganathan's)

Meykandar List. It fell into deaf ears. I've d ever since. The

obsession to 'disconstruct (whatever that means)' Vedanta has been the

subject of many mails posted by Dr Loganathan even in the Meykandar list.

There was even a discussion in the List to relate the word 'Veda' to

'Vedanai' which means 'pain' or 'sorrow' in tamil.

 

Dr Loganathan is not completely ignorant of the Vedanta philosophy. During

my membership in the Meykandar list, I discovered that he has studied the

Brahma Sutras, Upadesha Sahasri and a tamil text by Swami Satchitanandendra

Saraswati on his own.

 

I would also like to echo Ramji's request to Dr Loganathan to provide

textual references to support his claims. Thank you.

 

Kathi

>

> ramvchandran [sMTP:rchandran]

> Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:53 PM

> advaitin

> Re: Psychology and Metaphysics-6

>

> Namaste Sri Madathilnair:

>

> Thanks for bringing some valid points to the attention of Dr.

> Loganathan. While reading Dr. Loganathan's postings, I am of

> the opinion (it is only my impression and others may or may not agree)

> that they are more like reading newsitems in newspapers - lots of news

> but without substantive facts. Such news items may be useful to some

> but or others they are quite irrelevant especially those who have no

> interest on such news.

>

> Specifically, this list focuses its discussions mostly on advaita

> philosophy and related materials. In this context, the materials

> presented by Dr. Loganathan does not appear relevant. Any new

> ideas criticising existing philosophies need lots of supporting

> references and facts. This is only my personal opinion, and it is

> quite possible that I could be wrong! If Dr. Loganathan feels that I

> am wrong, let me express my sincere apologies. I do respect Dr.

> Loganathan's enthusiasm and his willingness to share his scholarship

> with the list members. I wish that he takes little more time to review

> the Advaita Philsophy before offering his conclusions.

>

> warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

>

> advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> > Dear Sir,

> >

> > I am not a scholar, a psychologist, an academician. However, I have

> > read all your posts with meticulous care and endeavoured my best to

> > understand your ideas.

> >

> > That you don't to vedanta and Budhdhism is already clear

> to

> > all of us here.

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Nair,

 

Thank-you. I can see that your obervations and questions are quite to the point

and quite

stimulating. So let me respond to some of your points as below

 

madathilnair wrote:

> Dear Sir,

>

> I am not a scholar, a psychologist, an academician.  However, I have

> read all your posts with meticulous care and endeavoured my best to

> understand your ideas.

 

Loga:

 

Actually you fins that I continuously refer to very commonsensical things and

therefore nothing

that requires examining more than what we generally know. It is NOT necessary to

provide

scriptural evidence for such facts of life as memory lose, death and so forth.

Death is a fact

of life, anything that comes to birth also dies. This is also a feature of the

world as a whole

and the one of the meanings of MAYA may simply be this though perhaps not as it

occurs in

"Mayaavaatam". Even here the Vedantins may mean something quite deep and not

simply illusion

delusion etc.

 

That you read or in fact study my postings with meticulas care is very pleasant

to hear So

don't worry -- there will be more to come  as  a theme crystallizes in my mind

with a unity.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>  

>

> That you don't to vedanta and Budhdhism is already clear to

> all of us here.  However, you persist to send posts to this forum, to

> the thought of which you don't , because you believe you

> have an alternative better than advaita to offer.  What that

> alternative is like is still not clear to me.  You seem to believe in

> keeping all of us in suspense!

 

Loga:

 

This is NOT quite accurate. I LEARN from all great thinkers but of course I use

my Buddhi ( as

recommended by the Vivekananda Center). I do not as yet have  an alternative to

offer but

working towards it with valuable input , even if negative , from people like

you. Suspense? no,

it is an ongoing search where clarities are worked out  and illuminations

attained. Of course

as we develop more and more questions swell in the mind and which is a good sign

for the

inquiries take definite shapes.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>  

>

> I can be critical about many points in your posts.  But, as I said, I

> don't believe this is the right forum to express such opnion and our

> moderators have already made it clear before.  However, permit me to

> mention your following two important conclusions which I cannot

> digest at all as a very common thinking being and an aspiring

> advaitin:

 

Loga:

 

Please be critical. That will be the best homage you can pay towards Sankara who

was immensely

critical. He remains one of the great  masters from whom I learned to be

critical and which

also means I have to be critical towards him as well as much to others, Ramanuja

Meykandar

Tirumular and a host of others.  I am sure the moderators will approve of it as

one of the

stated goals as I already pointed, that of searching for Ultimate Reality. Of

course they

demand that all these take place with emotions under control.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>  

>

> Firstly, in your earlier posts, you concluded that when human beings

> confront soonyatha, they tend to exhbit a defensive "non-average"

> behaviour in order to vindicate, substantiate and justify their

> being. (These may not be your exact words but your thought as I

> understood it.) Agreed, such aberrations are possible, particularly

> if you have in mind the post-World War II European intelligensia that

> grew beards and lamented the pointlessness of existence, the western

> youth fed up and frustrated with material comforts, who took the

> wrold to drugs with him.  But, you seem to apply this even to the

> present day terrorists who include those guys who crashed those jumbo

> jets into the WTC towers!  That type of thinking is an outrage on

> anybody's sensibility, Sir!  To say those headless fanatics "tasted"

> soonyatha, a concept that requires a high degree of intellectual

> capability to appreciate, is the height of absurdity.  They had no

> sense of soonyatha.  They knew what they were doing.  They did not

> belong to a faith that has the concept of soonyatha at all, even an

> iota of it, anywhere in their thinking.  They were trying to force on

> the world what they thought was right and, from that point of view,

> they very much believed in this world, the life therein and

> the "promise" that lay thereafter!

 

Loga:

 

Fanaticism, terrorism in the name of religion is a phenomena that we have think

about very

seriously. I am THINKING about it, go down right to its roots. In due course I

will come to it.

I have to be clear about certain other issues before I can tackle it adequately.

The sunyata

perhaps exists in their heart as the DESERT LANDSCAPE and an imageless EMPTY

place as the place

of worship.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>  

>

> The second outrageous conclusion is in your latest post and quoted

> below.  You have killed soonyatha and brahman - both in one clean

> stroke! Let the Buddhists rush in to rescue soonyatha if they want.

>  

 

Loga:

 

No , I have not killed it but just pointed the possibility that Sunyata and

Brahman-Self ,( if

it the same as that) is subject to destruction and disappearance. But of course

it is there for

when we are metaphysical it comes back to our deep recesses of the mind. So just

simply it

raises new questions about it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

But as for our brahman, you have already said that DARKNESS will

prevail and failed to mention who will be there to "see" that

residual darkness!  That "who" is what we advaitins are all after,

whether we accept your scenario or not.

 

Loga:

 

A very interesting and thought provoking question, I must say. Of course we have

to analyze

further the notion of SEEING itself. Do ants SEE?

 

And furthermore there is a sense in which BRAHMAN sees even this DARKNESS. This

may be the real

meaning of the second sutra of the Vedanta Sutras:

 

(Brahman is that omniscient, omnipotent cause) from which proceed the origin

etc. (i.e.

sustenance and dissolution) of this (world) (trans by. Swami Vireswarannadna)

 

If Brahman is the cause of the dissolution of everything,  and the ONE who

brings about

Darkness, HE must be seeing it. There is NO blindness in  Brahman here. But then

if this the 

true meaning of Brahman, then it cannot be the Sunyata or the Brahman-Self !

 

Now what is true meaning of Brahman?

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

>  

>

>  Now I wrote this only because you asked for an explanation in one of your

> previous posts and I thought that you deserved one.  Forgive me, if I

> have been very frank in expressing my sentiments.

>  

 

Loga:

 

No , no at all. I am quite used to controversies ( also to being abused in that

process). But

so was Sankara, wasn't?. If you want : I want to be a Sankara as much as  a

Meykandar --  just

simply critical and OPEN to truths that I cannot deny and go on CLARIFYING

myself accumulating

truths after truths, all with the Satyam Eva Jayate  well entrenched in my mind.

What remains

undying is TRUTH what we must keep steadfastly in our mind if Mey KaaNal, truth

seeking and

seeing.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>  

> Thanks and best regards.

>

> Madathil Nair

> _____________________________

>  

>  

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

 

Thanks for your response and desire for critical discussion.

 

Currently, my main interest is this forum and that should be evident

to you in the way I take interest in the goings on here amidst my

other responsibilities. I would, therefore, like to express my

opinions, if at all any, on the issues raised by you, directly to you

at your e-mail address, and exclude this forum and its members from

being subjected to mail they are not interested in. Kindly see that

such desire has been expressed by other members. Please help me

honour their feelings.

 

Thanks and best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

________________________

 

 

advaitin, "Dr. K. Loganathan" <subas@p...> wrote:

> Dear Nair,

>

> Thank-you. I can see that your obervations and questions are quite

to the point and quite

> stimulating. So let me respond to some of your points as below

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Nair,

 

 

I  appreciate your interest but unfortnately  hard pressed for time and hence

don't normally

encourage private correspondences unless they are personal. You have some very

stimulaing and

interesting questions that will benefit all including the Vedantins. Any way  if

you feel

uncomfortable you are most welcome to post  or c.c. them to akandabratam where

there are  many

other scholars as well and who can participate actively in such  an inquiry from

which I think

all  the Indian scholars can benefit .

 

Loga

 

 

madathilnair wrote:

> Dear Sir,

>

> Thanks for your response and  desire for critical discussion.

>

> Currently, my main interest is this forum and that should be evident

> to you in the way I take interest in the goings on here amidst my

> other responsibilities.  I would, therefore, like to express my

> opinions, if at all any, on the issues raised by you, directly to you

> at your e-mail address, and exclude this forum and its members from

> being subjected to mail they are not interested in. Kindly see that

> such desire has been expressed by other members.  Please help me

> honour their feelings.

>

> Thanks and best regards.

>

> Madathil Nair

> ________________________

>

> advaitin, "Dr. K. Loganathan" <subas@p...> wrote:

> > Dear Nair,

> >

> > Thank-you. I can see that your obervations and questions are quite

> to the point and quite

> > stimulating. So let me respond to some of your points as below

> >

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>  

>  

>

> Your use of is subject to