References to Women and Womanliness in the scriptures - Part 2

[Guest guest]

The concept of womanhood in the Hindu milieu, is something different from the

concept of womanhood in the western culture. In the west womanhood is always

associated with ‘wifehood’ or, in modern times, with ‘ biological necessity of

companionship without commitment on either side’. On the other hand, in the

Hindu culture, at least till recent times of globalisation of everything

including the social norms of the west, the first thing that comes to an

Indian mind when womanhood is mentioned is ‘motherhood’. It is the

all-suffering, all-forbearing quality of the woman as mother that stands

foremost in the Hindu concept of womanhood. ‘The ideal woman in India is the

mother, the mother first, and the mother last,’ says Swami Vivekananda in a

powerful talk in reply to questions from an American audience in 1900. Here are

some extracts from that speech:

‘In the West, the woman is wife. … To the ordinary man in India, the whole

force of womanhood is concentrated in motherhood …. Where is the American woman

as mother? Where is she whose love never dies, however wicked, however vile I

am? … Is woman a name to be coupled with the physical body only? Woman! Thou

shalt not be coupled with anything connected to the flesh. The name has been

called holy once and for ever, for what name is there which no lust can ever

approach, no carnality ever come near, than the word mother? That is the ideal

in India . … The one thing that fulfills womanhood, that is womanliness in

women is motherhood. … That is the great mission of woman -- to become a

mother’.

Here is a riddle about a scriptural interpretation on ‘Women’. There is a

stotra called nArAyaNa-stuti in devI-mAhAtmyam. This is a delightful poem of

praise on Mother Goddess. At one point it says: You are the vaishNavI-Sakti,

the Supreme Energy of the Lord of Sustenance, VishNu; or also, the Supreme

Transcendental Energy and Power. You are the seed of the universe. You are the

Supreme MayA – indicating thereby that the prakriti or the mAyA which is the

cause of all this universe of space and time is Her creation, Her expression of

the Divine Will. And now comes the punch-line:

vidyAs-samastAs-tava devi bhedAH, striyAs-samstAs-sakalA jagatsu.

The first half says: All the arts and sciences, in fact all knowledge, are

only different expressions of Your Light. And in the second half it says all

women in the universe are also so. Here the Sanskrit text allows a deeper

perception which we owe to Sri Aurobindo. Pundits who have commented on this

verse have stumbled on the apparent repetition imbedded in the words:

samastAs-sakalAh. The two words ‘samstAh’ and ‘sakalAh’ both mean ‘all’. Why

was this repeated?.The pundits say: the second word sakalA (sakalAh is the

plural of sakalA) has to be broken as sa-kalA, meaning, ‘she who is endowed

with the fine arts’. Thus it would appear, the Mother Goddess finds expression,

not in all the women of the universe, but only in those women who are endowed

with a skill in the fine arts. Pundits were satisfied with this meaning and the

community of women also took it lying, as it were. Because this interpretation

has the sanction of tradition, apparently nobody even noticed the implied

insult to women as a whole. Another interpretation, again by the pundits, is

also in vogue. This one is rather esoteric, and involves some knowledge of the

kAma-Sastra. The word ‘kalA’ has a meaning in numerology, namely, the number

sixteen. It appears there are exactly sixteen erotic spots in the body of a

woman. So a woman endowed with ‘kalA’ would mean a woman who can respond to

these sixteen spots, that is, a woman between the ages of 15 and 45, say. Thus

again, the meaning of the verse comes down to saying that not all women, but

only a certain subset of all women, have the prerogative of being the

expressions of the Mother Goddess!

Sri Aurobindo would not to either of these interpretations which

distinguish between woman and woman. He says: ‘kalA’ means ‘part’ or

‘fraction’. So ‘sa-kalA’ should mean that all parts are present or are

represented. In other words it means ‘the fullest’. Thus the verse would mean:

all forms of knowledge are only different manifestations of Yourself, Oh,

Mother, but in the universe the community of women are your fullest

expressions! This is the reason for the worship of young girls as Divine

Motheer in the ritual called ‘suvAsinI-pUjA’.

In fact it is this Indian genius of considering each womasn as the fullest

expression of the Divine Mother that is missed by the lay writer about India

and Hinduism. No other culture gives such a great status to women. If we,

products of the 20th century, in our ignorance, misunderstand the Hindu

scriptures to imply a demeaning status to women we have ourselves to blame. No

other civilisation can perhaps speak of a Divine Mother with such disarming

familiarity as Hindu scriptures do.

 

praNAms to all advaitins.

Profvk

 

 

 

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

http://taxes./

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends

 

Namaskar and thank you for allowing me to listen here as I am relatively new

to Sanatana Dharma that is Hinduism so someone needs to help me understand

something

 

Will try and say this in a constructive and respectful manner

 

To be really honest this is a beautiful message however part way through

this I started thinking about all the womanhood that used to be burned on

the funeral pyre with their deceased husbands

 

So need some help on this from someone who knows about this

 

As I read further then I remembered about all the girl babies that are

killed in India after they are born because they are not sons. The

destruction of future womanhood in India today is immense

 

So need some help on this one also from someone who knows about this

 

As I read further I remembered all the young girls that are given to some of

the different Temples in India and really need some help with this in

relation to what is written here

 

Then really need help with the statement regarding biological necessity of

companionship without commitment on either side specific to the west

 

This one I know about as I live in the US and am married and is really not

correct

 

To prove this there is an old saying in India that applies also in the west

and proves my point to the limit

 

Married men are said to live longer than single men however married men are

much more willing to die at a moments notice..............in either East or

West

 

Yes it is agreed that a person has to be married a long time to understand

this comment on commitment however commitment is the same in East or West or

North or South as it is predicated on loveing one another and most all

individuals no matter the East or West find another person to love and

commit to

 

So this statment also makes no sense and this is one I know about and need

no help with

 

And last but not least can someone please tell me why the 16 erotic points

on a 15 year old is the topic of conversation on the advaitin group list. In

reality this is someones 15 year old daughter you are talking about

 

Am not a prude by any means and have studied Kama Sutra and Tantic Practices

and also work with references from the Siva Puran Padma Puran

Srimaddevibhagavat and Rudraksajabalopanisad however for some reason am not

makeing the connection with the advaitin group opeining any type of

discussion on this type of subject matter

 

If I get any type of answer to these questions at all I am sure it will be

lively and immediate and then maybe more people than myself can learn from

this

 

Thanking your for your help in explaining this

 

DharmaDeva Arya

 

 

 

V. Krishnamurthy <profvk

advaitinlist <advaitin>

Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:58 PM

References to Women and Womanliness in the scriptures -

Part 2

 

>The concept of womanhood in the Hindu milieu, is something different from

the

>concept of womanhood in the western culture. In the west womanhood is

always

>associated with ‘wifehood’ or, in modern times, with ‘ biological necessity

of

>companionship without commitment on either side’. On the other hand, in the

>Hindu culture, at least till recent times of globalisation of everything

>including the social norms of the west, the first thing that comes to an

>Indian mind when womanhood is mentioned is ‘motherhood’. It is the

>all-suffering, all-forbearing quality of the woman as mother that stands

>foremost in the Hindu concept of womanhood. ‘The ideal woman in India is

the

>mother, the mother first, and the mother last,’ says Swami Vivekananda in a

>powerful talk in reply to questions from an American audience in 1900. Here

are

>some extracts from that speech:

>‘In the West, the woman is wife. … To the ordinary man in India, the whole

>force of womanhood is concentrated in motherhood …. Where is the American

woman

>as mother? Where is she whose love never dies, however wicked, however vile

I

>am? … Is woman a name to be coupled with the physical body only? Woman!

Thou

>shalt not be coupled with anything connected to the flesh. The name has

been

>called holy once and for ever, for what name is there which no lust can

ever

>approach, no carnality ever come near, than the word mother? That is the

ideal

>in India . … The one thing that fulfills womanhood, that is womanliness in

>women is motherhood. … That is the great mission of woman -- to become a

>mother’.

>Here is a riddle about a scriptural interpretation on ‘Women’. There is a

>stotra called nArAyaNa-stuti in devI-mAhAtmyam. This is a delightful poem

of

>praise on Mother Goddess. At one point it says: You are the

vaishNavI-Sakti,

>the Supreme Energy of the Lord of Sustenance, VishNu; or also, the Supreme

>Transcendental Energy and Power. You are the seed of the universe. You are

the

>Supreme MayA – indicating thereby that the prakriti or the mAyA which is

the

>cause of all this universe of space and time is Her creation, Her

expression of

>the Divine Will. And now comes the punch-line:

>vidyAs-samastAs-tava devi bhedAH, striyAs-samstAs-sakalA jagatsu.

>The first half says: All the arts and sciences, in fact all knowledge,

are

>only different expressions of Your Light. And in the second half it says

all

>women in the universe are also so. Here the Sanskrit text allows a deeper

>perception which we owe to Sri Aurobindo. Pundits who have commented on

this

>verse have stumbled on the apparent repetition imbedded in the words:

>samastAs-sakalAh. The two words ‘samstAh’ and ‘sakalAh’ both mean ‘all’.

Why

>was this repeated?.The pundits say: the second word sakalA (sakalAh is the

>plural of sakalA) has to be broken as sa-kalA, meaning, ‘she who is endowed

>with the fine arts’. Thus it would appear, the Mother Goddess finds

expression,

>not in all the women of the universe, but only in those women who are

endowed

>with a skill in the fine arts. Pundits were satisfied with this meaning and

the

>community of women also took it lying, as it were. Because this

interpretation

>has the sanction of tradition, apparently nobody even noticed the implied

>insult to women as a whole. Another interpretation, again by the pundits,

is

>also in vogue. This one is rather esoteric, and involves some knowledge of

the

>kAma-Sastra. The word ‘kalA’ has a meaning in numerology, namely, the

number

>sixteen. It appears there are exactly sixteen erotic spots in the body of a

>woman. So a woman endowed with ‘kalA’ would mean a woman who can respond to

>these sixteen spots, that is, a woman between the ages of 15 and 45, say.

Thus

>again, the meaning of the verse comes down to saying that not all women,

but

>only a certain subset of all women, have the prerogative of being the

>expressions of the Mother Goddess!

>Sri Aurobindo would not to either of these interpretations which

>distinguish between woman and woman. He says: ‘kalA’ means ‘part’ or

>‘fraction’. So ‘sa-kalA’ should mean that all parts are present or are

>represented. In other words it means ‘the fullest’. Thus the verse would

mean:

>all forms of knowledge are only different manifestations of Yourself, Oh,

>Mother, but in the universe the community of women are your fullest

>expressions! This is the reason for the worship of young girls as Divine

>Motheer in the ritual called ‘suvAsinI-pUjA’.

>In fact it is this Indian genius of considering each womasn as the fullest

>expression of the Divine Mother that is missed by the lay writer about

India

>and Hinduism. No other culture gives such a great status to women. If we,

>products of the 20th century, in our ignorance, misunderstand the Hindu

>scriptures to imply a demeaning status to women we have ourselves to blame.

No

>other civilisation can perhaps speak of a Divine Mother with such disarming

>familiarity as Hindu scriptures do.

>

>praNAms to all advaitins.

>Profvk

>

>

>

>

>

>=====

>Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

>My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

>You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

>

>

>

> Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

>http://taxes./

>

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste all!

 

In our haste to extol ourselves, are we not forgetting Mother Mary?!

I am a devotee of the Universal Mother and I see her in Mary. Mary to

me is the symbol of Universal Motherhood. I find this Motherhood in

every faith, in every nook and corner of the world, wherever I go and

in whatever I see. I am living in an Islamic Arab country and I know

with what respect and love my colleagues treat their mothers,

although the general impression outside is that Islam does not treat

women well. A woman is not called by her name like we do in

our "motherland" India. She is fondly called the "Mother of so and

so" (like Umm Khalid – the mother of Khalid) and fathers are known

after their sons (like Abu Khalid – father of Khalid). So, with all

respects, I can't help taking exception to the view expressed in

Prof. Krishnamoorthy's post. In the first place, the comparison

with the West should have been avoided. The importance of womanhood

in Indian society should have been highlighted with due respect to

the sensibilities and sentiments of others. Otherwise, we cannot

escape answer pertinent questions like the ones raised by Shri

Dharmadeva Arya (ShiningLotus) in his latest post.

 

I have an interpretation of Devi Mahathmya in Malayalam right in

front of me authored by Brahmasree Kandiyoor Mahadeva Sastrikal,

where the the word "sakalah" has been interpreted as women endowed

with the "sixtyfour kalas (artistic proficiencies) (beginning

with "geetham" and ending with "Vynayikeenam Vayyasikeenam cha

vidyaanaam jnanam") as mentioned in saivathanthra (the complete list

can be provided if interested).

 

I chant this sthuthi twice mandatorily everyday and whenever I have

free time or am confronted by difficulties. I would, therefore,

prefer to go by a very simple interpretation like:

 

"Oh, Devi! All vidyas (means of knowledge) are your forms, so are

all women regardless of their attributes. This everchanging universe

is completely pervaded by you. What praise can be there for you who

is the very nature of paravaak and aparaavaak (primary and secondary

expressions (of praise))?!"

 

Here, Devi is both Vidya (Saraswathi) and all women (beginning with

Braahmi). If she is Saraswathi, she is the very form of expression –

of praise or whatever. So, how praise can be the tool to praise

praise?!

 

Interpreters who invested erotic connotations in the word perhaps had

the sixteen kaamakalas in their mind. Kaamakala, I understand, has

physical and subtle meanings. I am not competent to go into that

subject. I would, therefore, prefer the simple approach mentioned

above as we are talking about our Mother.

 

There is a subsequent sloka which has the word kala:

 

Kalaakoshtaadi roopena parinaama pradayini!

Viswasyoparathou sakthe! Naaraayani Namosthuthe.

 

Here kala means a unit of time. Devi in the form of divisions of

time bringing about changes and thus having the power to destroy the

universe is praised here. Why can't we employ this "temporal" sense

of kala in the previous stanza too? Although that would make a lot

of sense and eliminate ambiguity, I do not know how it would go with

the parsing of the sloka? Let a competent mind endeavour that.

 

Incidentally, the 11th chapter in Devimaahathmya is

called "Naaraayani Sthuthi" and not "Naaraayana Sthuthi" as appearing

in Prof. Murthy's post probably due to a typographic error.

 

Prnaams!

 

Madathil Nair

 

___________________

 

 

 

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> The concept of womanhood in the Hindu milieu, is something

different from the

> concept of womanhood in the western culture. In the west womanhood

is always

> associated with `wifehood'

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Madathilnair for your corrections. I appreciate your observations

and I stand corrected.

Yours, with praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

http://taxes./

[Guest guest]

>"ShiningLotus" <shininglotus

>Thanking your for your help in explaining this

>

>DharmaDeva Arya

 

With the name like DharmaDeva Arya and shining like a Lotus - you should be

providing the answers than questions. Salutations.

 

We all know all the societies have been male chauvinistic and dominated by

men anywhere in the globe. That is a fact - no matter what one

intellectualizes it. The conditions are not much different even now and

even in this country - all though there is equality according to Law - If

one see an advertisement for automobiles - you can see this as a fact.

 

I don’t think this is any different in India too. One has to reckon two

facts - the books and the teachings are addressed to the audience at any

point and they are mostly other male chauvinistic. The other fact is the

teacher wants to uplift these ideas and inculcate in their minds that women

are not any inferior even though the society treat them as such. Hence

glorification of as women mothers, goddesses.

 

The broader meaning is being provided for the word women in terms of

qualities. Prof. V.K. is presenting essentially that. The societies

discrimination of others - women etc is being counter balanced with the

understanding that spiritual knowledge is not exclusive rights of men alone.

Women as objects of sensuous enjoyment is being practiced from time immoral

- some have legalized that profession others tolerate it since there are

males who seek for it.

 

Yet one has to bring in the fact that adhyaatmika vidya is independent of

gender of the body. Hence we find statement across the board and

interpretations and reinterpretations etc to that effect.

 

It is unfortunate but that is global problem from beginning and India is no

exception.

 

The sooner we stop all discriminations on the basis of birth, color or

gender the sooner we grow as humans. Vedanta is beyond all this. Of course

advaita Vedanta needs no qualifications.

 

I remembered a joke - God created first the man and then SHE realized HER

mistakes and improvised the design and created next the Woman.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

_______________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Friend

 

Thank you for further explanation on this subject matter

 

DharmaDev Arya

 

 

 

madathilnair <madathilnair

advaitin <advaitin>

Friday, April 19, 2002 2:03 AM

Re: References to Women and Womanliness in the

scriptures - Part 2

 

>Namaste all!

>

>In our haste to extol ourselves, are we not forgetting Mother Mary?!

>I am a devotee of the Universal Mother and I see her in Mary. Mary to

>me is the symbol of Universal Motherhood. I find this Motherhood in

>every faith, in every nook and corner of the world, wherever I go and

>in whatever I see. I am living in an Islamic Arab country and I know

>with what respect and love my colleagues treat their mothers,

>although the general impression outside is that Islam does not treat

>women well. A woman is not called by her name like we do in

>our "motherland" India. She is fondly called the "Mother of so and

>so" (like Umm Khalid – the mother of Khalid) and fathers are known

>after their sons (like Abu Khalid – father of Khalid). So, with all

>respects, I can't help taking exception to the view expressed in

>Prof. Krishnamoorthy's post. In the first place, the comparison

>with the West should have been avoided. The importance of womanhood

>in Indian society should have been highlighted with due respect to

>the sensibilities and sentiments of others. Otherwise, we cannot

>escape answer pertinent questions like the ones raised by Shri

>Dharmadeva Arya (ShiningLotus) in his latest post.

>

>I have an interpretation of Devi Mahathmya in Malayalam right in

>front of me authored by Brahmasree Kandiyoor Mahadeva Sastrikal,

>where the the word "sakalah" has been interpreted as women endowed

>with the "sixtyfour kalas (artistic proficiencies) (beginning

>with "geetham" and ending with "Vynayikeenam Vayyasikeenam cha

>vidyaanaam jnanam") as mentioned in saivathanthra (the complete list

>can be provided if interested).

>

>I chant this sthuthi twice mandatorily everyday and whenever I have

>free time or am confronted by difficulties. I would, therefore,

>prefer to go by a very simple interpretation like:

>

>"Oh, Devi! All vidyas (means of knowledge) are your forms, so are

>all women regardless of their attributes. This everchanging universe

>is completely pervaded by you. What praise can be there for you who

>is the very nature of paravaak and aparaavaak (primary and secondary

>expressions (of praise))?!"

>

>Here, Devi is both Vidya (Saraswathi) and all women (beginning with

>Braahmi). If she is Saraswathi, she is the very form of expression –

>of praise or whatever. So, how praise can be the tool to praise

>praise?!

>

>Interpreters who invested erotic connotations in the word perhaps had

>the sixteen kaamakalas in their mind. Kaamakala, I understand, has

>physical and subtle meanings. I am not competent to go into that

>subject. I would, therefore, prefer the simple approach mentioned

>above as we are talking about our Mother.

>

>There is a subsequent sloka which has the word kala:

>

>Kalaakoshtaadi roopena parinaama pradayini!

>Viswasyoparathou sakthe! Naaraayani Namosthuthe.

>

>Here kala means a unit of time. Devi in the form of divisions of

>time bringing about changes and thus having the power to destroy the

>universe is praised here. Why can't we employ this "temporal" sense

>of kala in the previous stanza too? Although that would make a lot

>of sense and eliminate ambiguity, I do not know how it would go with

>the parsing of the sloka? Let a competent mind endeavour that.

>

>Incidentally, the 11th chapter in Devimaahathmya is

>called "Naaraayani Sthuthi" and not "Naaraayana Sthuthi" as appearing

>in Prof. Murthy's post probably due to a typographic error.

>

>Prnaams!

>

>Madathil Nair

>

>___________________

>

>

>

>advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

>> The concept of womanhood in the Hindu milieu, is something

>different from the

>> concept of womanhood in the western culture. In the west womanhood

>is always

>> associated with `wifehood'

>

>

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes Namaskar and Salutations to you also Sadanandaji

 

I understand your thinking however am not in agreeance with part of your

first sentence

 

It is not my place to ask questions of others unless I already have the

answers as this would not be responsible action on my part

 

By asking the question based on this then if the person responsible for

sparking my questions answers me then am learning and analyzing how others

explain themselves specific to their understanding of their reality and it

brings the issues out into the open

 

I find it is not useful to volunteer opinions when am new to any group so

for me is best to simply be silent and read and learn as much as I can and

then when something is said that does not reflect what is actually takeing

place in the world around us in the relative field and is convoluted and not

showing both sides my method of approach is to point out and ask politely

for someone to explain so I can see where all this is going

 

In addition from my perspective alone I feel that some of what Prof VK

placed on the advaitin group site was inappropriate specific to what is

takeing place in this age and what he is printing in text

 

Let me make a statement that will certainly bring out the Agni in some

 

Some of the historacle scriptural text we read does not apply in this age

therefore it is difficult to see printed matter that shows the great

reverence of devotion to womanhood from a Golden Age and at the same time

see the government of India trying to stop all the girl babies that are

from being killed because they are not sons by offering government

subsidized programs to parents

 

Then between the time this text was written in reverance to womanhood and

the present date am really happy to see that womanhood as represented by

liveing breathing feeling women who at one time were placed on funeral pyres

with their deceased husbands has been stopped

 

Am also hopeing the donation of adolescent girls to some Temples in India

can be resolved also

 

And finaly some of what this person is saying in my opinion and others

simply does not have a place on the advaitin group and an example of this is

would be the mention of the 16 erotic points on a 15 year old girl and this

is not take out of context. It is taken out of the text written

 

Would like to ask you an honest question Miss Sadananda. Now that this

inappropriate topic has been documented on the Advaitin Group that is a

Spiritual Discussion Group I would like to ask in a respecful manner if you

would like to see anyone whether male of female comment on where these 16

points are and what their uses are. Your answer will probably be no it is

not necessary to even consider this as is an inappropriate subject for

probably 95% of the Mankind

 

My point being the broader meanings of some of the things Prof VK has

printed in text are incorrect in the absolute field and in the relative

field because both are one

 

And yes although Male Chauvinism is rampant in this age at the same time

nothing exists without the woman and in fact a Married men will affirm to

the fact that women and the Goddess control the world and this next mention

is also one of the places we do not agree and that is OK also

 

When you mention Male Domination and Chauvanism is all the same in India and

the West specific to male domination of a culture this is not correct. Women

control the family and the very existance of Mankind and as such the Goddess

controls everything even to the point where Siva is not truly fulfilled

unless there is Union with Shakti

 

Without this Union there is nothing and without women there is nothing so am

hopeing that what Prof VK has written will some day actually be a reality in

the world we live in

 

Thank you for allowing a place for me to participate

 

Thank you for your patience

 

Aum Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

 

S R DharmaDeva Arya

 

 

 

 

Kuntimaddi Sadananda <k_sadananda

advaitin <advaitin>

Friday, April 19, 2002 2:46 PM

Re: References to Women and Womanliness in the

scriptures - Part 2

 

>

>

>

>>"ShiningLotus" <shininglotus

>

>>Thanking your for your help in explaining this

>>

>>DharmaDeva Arya

>

>With the name like DharmaDeva Arya and shining like a Lotus - you should be

>providing the answers than questions. Salutations.

>

>We all know all the societies have been male chauvinistic and dominated by

>men anywhere in the globe. That is a fact - no matter what one

>intellectualizes it. The conditions are not much different even now and

>even in this country - all though there is equality according to Law - If

>one see an advertisement for automobiles - you can see this as a fact.

>

>I don’t think this is any different in India too. One has to reckon two

>facts - the books and the teachings are addressed to the audience at any

>point and they are mostly other male chauvinistic. The other fact is the

>teacher wants to uplift these ideas and inculcate in their minds that women

>are not any inferior even though the society treat them as such. Hence

>glorification of as women mothers, goddesses.

>

>The broader meaning is being provided for the word women in terms of

>qualities. Prof. V.K. is presenting essentially that. The societies

>discrimination of others - women etc is being counter balanced with the

>understanding that spiritual knowledge is not exclusive rights of men

alone.

>Women as objects of sensuous enjoyment is being practiced from time immoral

>- some have legalized that profession others tolerate it since there are

>males who seek for it.

>

>Yet one has to bring in the fact that adhyaatmika vidya is independent of

>gender of the body. Hence we find statement across the board and

>interpretations and reinterpretations etc to that effect.

>

>It is unfortunate but that is global problem from beginning and India is no

>exception.

>

>The sooner we stop all discriminations on the basis of birth, color or

>gender the sooner we grow as humans. Vedanta is beyond all this. Of course

>advaita Vedanta needs no qualifications.

>

>I remembered a joke - God created first the man and then SHE realized HER

>mistakes and improvised the design and created next the Woman.

>

>Hari Om!

>Sadananda

>

>_______________

>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

>

>

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

It is a paradox of the 'human condition' that ideals can be

conceived, and those can be practised in either pure or corrupted

forms.

 

The extant vedas contain names of nearly 350 Rishis, of whom

about 30 are women. The latter have composed some of the most sublime

spiritual poetry, including 'shrii suukta', etc.

 

'gaayatrii chhandasaaM maataa' (Gayatri mantra is the

Mother of Vedas) is a statement from the upanishads.

 

The Tantric sadhana of Shakti worship is a unique

contribution of the Hindu culture.

 

Gita, 10:34, eulogises the 'feminine'(vibhuutis') in these

words:

 

kiirtiH shriirvaakcha naariiNaa.n smR^itirmedhaa dhR^itiH kshamaa ..

10\.34..

 

"fame, prosperity, speech, memory, intelligence, firmness, and

patience...."

 

Among the 'essences'(bhaava) of existence :

 

santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhura-rasa are the 'mukhya' (chief);

(peaceful, service, friendliness, affection, self-sacrificing love)

 

hasya, adbhuta, vira, karuna, raudra, vibhatsa, bhaya are

the 'gauNa'.

(humor, wonder, courage, compassion, fierceness, disgust, fear)

 

One can notice how much share 'womankind' has of the chief ones, and

how much the minor ones for the rest!

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda@h...> wrote:

>

>

>

> >"ShiningLotus" <shininglotus@c...>

>

>>

> Yet one has to bring in the fact that adhyaatmika vidya is

independent of

> gender of the body. Hence we find statement across the board and

> interpretations and reinterpretations etc to that effect.

>

> It is unfortunate but that is global problem from beginning and

India is no

> exception.

>

[Guest guest]

> Thank you for allowing a place for me to participate

>

> Thank you for your patience

>

> Aum Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

>

> S R DharmaDeva Arya

>

 

 

Shree Darmadeva Arya With shining Lotus

 

I think we both understand the essential problem. What

Prof V.K. is bringing to our attention the ideal that

is emphasized in the Vedic teaching. It is addressed

to the mind not to a gender specific and that is the

goal and aim of our scriptures. The rest is all human

behavior and we both know. We can sit down and pass

the judgments what is appropriate. There is social

discrimination is no question and it has no place any

where much more so in adhyatimia vidya - where we are

trying to grow out of all discriminations.

 

What prof. V.K. bringing back to our attention is

precisely this - the teaching is addressed by a

teacher to the students who are belonging to that

environment. When we interpret these to current we

need to consider only those that of permanent isuses

ignoring the temporal issues since we are addressing

not a social problem but spiritual quest.

 

Vedanta address using a universal pronoun 'aH' which

means 'who ever he may be he who' - independent what

gender, cast, creed or nationality - it is unversal

pronoun and applicable to all. That is the nature of

the teaching addressed to mind.

 

I would like the discussion to concentrate on the

spiritual aspect rather than social problems. Since

we both know the problem is no point in further

discussion of this. What Prof V.K is addressing is

only from the spiritual aspect that there is no

intended discrimination from that reference. Let us

be content with that and continue our quest with that

attitude.

 

Let us keep the discussion of social issues out of

this list serve and I am sure there are several other

liste serves that addresses those issues.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more

http://games./

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunderji

 

Namaskar and thank you a great deal for this

>From my understanding at this time in my physical life this shows a more

total picture from all sides and is a balanced response to the paradox that

exists and that you have identified perfectly

 

Reminds me of all that is MahaTripurSundari and all the Goddesses especially

Goddess MahaLakshmi and Godess Durga and my other Best Friends all who are

the Life of this world

 

 

Aum Shrim Klim MahaLakshmiyei Swaha

 

Aum Eim Klim Saraswatyei Swaha

 

Aum Dum Durgayei Namaha

 

Aum Krim Kalikayei Namaha

 

Aum Eim Hrim Shrim Klim Chamundayei Vichei Namaha

 

Aum Shanti Aum

 

Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum

 

Thank you for sending this message My Friend

 

DharmaDev Arya

 

 

 

sunderh <sunderh

advaitin <advaitin>

Friday, April 19, 2002 9:39 PM

Re: References to Women and Womanliness in the

scriptures - Part 2

 

>Namaste,

>

> It is a paradox of the 'human condition' that ideals can be

>conceived, and those can be practised in either pure or corrupted

>forms.

>

> The extant vedas contain names of nearly 350 Rishis, of whom

>about 30 are women. The latter have composed some of the most sublime

>spiritual poetry, including 'shrii suukta', etc.

>

> 'gaayatrii chhandasaaM maataa' (Gayatri mantra is the

>Mother of Vedas) is a statement from the upanishads.

>

> The Tantric sadhana of Shakti worship is a unique

>contribution of the Hindu culture.

>

> Gita, 10:34, eulogises the 'feminine'(vibhuutis') in these

>words:

>

>kiirtiH shriirvaakcha naariiNaa.n smR^itirmedhaa dhR^itiH kshamaa ..

>10\.34..

>

>"fame, prosperity, speech, memory, intelligence, firmness, and

>patience...."

>

> Among the 'essences'(bhaava) of existence :

>

>santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhura-rasa are the 'mukhya' (chief);

>(peaceful, service, friendliness, affection, self-sacrificing love)

>

>hasya, adbhuta, vira, karuna, raudra, vibhatsa, bhaya are

>the 'gauNa'.

>(humor, wonder, courage, compassion, fierceness, disgust, fear)

>

>One can notice how much share 'womankind' has of the chief ones, and

>how much the minor ones for the rest!

>

>

>Regards,

>

>Sunder

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>advaitin, "Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda@h...> wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>> >"ShiningLotus" <shininglotus@c...>

>>

>>>

>> Yet one has to bring in the fact that adhyaatmika vidya is

>independent of

>> gender of the body. Hence we find statement across the board and

>> interpretations and reinterpretations etc to that effect.

>>

>> It is unfortunate but that is global problem from beginning and

>India is no

>> exception.

>>

>

>

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Shree Sadanandaji

 

Thank you for writting back

 

Am fairly certain there is no need for us to communicate on this subject

after this message so will not be replying with additional messages. Then

this thread can be retired as have received reasonable and acceptable

answers on this from others

 

Is probably good if this is put to rest as is a simple matter that we do not

agree and this is not a problem with me. I wish you great peace in your Life

Aum Shanti Aum

 

In part the entire Vedas and Upanisads deal with resolution of spiritual AND

social problems of the Mankind and Womankind in the absolute and relative

fields because they are one and this is called UNITY

 

Unity is all about not ignoring any part of Unity. Unity cannot be seperated

 

The Greatness of Adi Sankara is part of my spiritual heritage and he never

ignored acting to resolve the human condition in favor of teaching the

scriptures and explaining Vedantic Texts. So your attitude expressed in this

matter is incorrect and wrong

 

Adi Sanakara combined both and from what I understand at this moment the

advaitin group basicly lives all that is Adi Sankaras Life and HisTeachings

of the Doctrine of Unity

 

Although you have expressed a personal need to keep social issues out of

this list serve this is not the Teachings of Adi Sanakara or the way he led

his life

 

Due to this statement on your part it is certainly clear that you have not

read a book reflecting the life of Adi Sankara or you would not be makeing

these kinds of statements

 

At age of 6 Adi Sankara wrote the book Balabodhasamgraha and at the same

time performed a miracle to help a poor Brahmin woman and this miracle is

still celebrated today as the Festival of Lights. This is a major example

that would be good not to ignore

 

At the age of 8 Adi Sankara completed his formal education and returned home

where he served and cared for his mother at the same time he continued his

studies of the sacred books. His mother had to walk quite a ways to and from

the Purna River each day and one day she became exhausted and he found her

lying unconscious on the way. The next day the Purna River was found flowing

right past Sankaras house. Interpretation of this action on his part is

totally immense

 

When Adi Sankara was 11 years old he was teaching the doctrine of Unity that

is Advaita Vedanta to learned pundits at Kasi on the banks of the Ganges

where he lived near the Visvanath Temple. At the same time he was doing this

he never never ever in a million years ignored the human condition in favor

of teaching the Doctrine of Unity. He always reacted to the human condition

to find resolution to suffering and pain at the same time he was teaching

Unity because this is the definition of Unity

 

I dont expect you to agree with anything said here and again I have no

problem with this

 

As you have said there are probably other sites that deal specificly with

the social issues of the human condition and ignore Unity however in my

opinion and from what I know this is not one of them

 

I am sure you will be able to find one of these list serves that you mention

that only deals with some type of fundamentally cerebralizeing of the

scriptures for edification of the intellect while at the same time ignoreing

the human condition

 

Again this group is not one of these as this group is involved with the

Teachings of Unity

 

If I have said anything that is known to be incorrect or offensive in manner

may the Moderators of this List please contact me privately and feel free to

correct me

 

I wish you a good life

 

Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum

 

S R DharmaDeva Arya

 

 

kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada

advaitin <advaitin>

Saturday, April 20, 2002 4:28 AM

Re: References to Women and Womanliness in the

scriptures - Part 2

 

>

>

>> Thank you for allowing a place for me to participate

>>

>> Thank you for your patience

>>

>> Aum Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

>>

>> S R DharmaDeva Arya

>>

>

>

>Shree Darmadeva Arya With shining Lotus

>

>I think we both understand the essential problem. What

>Prof V.K. is bringing to our attention the ideal that

>is emphasized in the Vedic teaching. It is addressed

>to the mind not to a gender specific and that is the

>goal and aim of our scriptures. The rest is all human

>behavior and we both know. We can sit down and pass

>the judgments what is appropriate. There is social

>discrimination is no question and it has no place any

>where much more so in adhyatimia vidya - where we are

>trying to grow out of all discriminations.

>

>What prof. V.K. bringing back to our attention is

>precisely this - the teaching is addressed by a

>teacher to the students who are belonging to that

>environment. When we interpret these to current we

>need to consider only those that of permanent isuses

>ignoring the temporal issues since we are addressing

>not a social problem but spiritual quest.

>

>Vedanta address using a universal pronoun 'aH' which

>means 'who ever he may be he who' - independent what

>gender, cast, creed or nationality - it is unversal

>pronoun and applicable to all. That is the nature of

>the teaching addressed to mind.

>

>I would like the discussion to concentrate on the

>spiritual aspect rather than social problems. Since

>we both know the problem is no point in further

>discussion of this. What Prof V.K is addressing is

>only from the spiritual aspect that there is no

>intended discrimination from that reference. Let us

>be content with that and continue our quest with that

>attitude.

>

>Let us keep the discussion of social issues out of

>this list serve and I am sure there are several other

>liste serves that addresses those issues.

>

>Hari OM!

>Sadananda

>

>

>

>

> Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more

>http://games./

>

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>