RE-RE CHOICE AND FREE WILL

April 22, 2002

HI RAM,GREG and Madathilnair:I agree that there is the "appearance"

of choice.But all choices are conditioned .There is some proposing

here that there can be a "subtle interaction with the Eternal or

a "limited free will".But if it's is limited it's not free!Greg ask

what this issue of the illusion of free will have to do with advaita

my answer is that this belief this sense of personal doership and

free will or determinism are the true obstacles for the "final"

understanding of advaita Non-dual.The true questions are, Who is

doing the actions? Who's free will?Who's determined by whom?The

answer for this questions is the understanding that advaita bring

about.But this understanding happening is not in the hand of

any "illusory entity".There is no "separate entity" to be aware of an

answer.Understanding is all[a good concept that "someones" use has a

cliche], About the question "Do you choice to post here?Yes choice to

post happen but not by a "me".Posting happen spontaneous.Why?Why not?

How?"Marvelous","wonderfulamazing".Regards Atagrasin

April 22, 2002

Hi Atagrasin,

Thanks for addressing my question. You mention that the free will issue is an

obstacle to the "final understanding" of non-dual advaita. It is a provisional,

partial teaching only. Even if this issue falls away, the show is not over.

There are STILL obstacles left, so this "understanding" is not "final." And it

has nothing to say about the other obstacles that it leaves in its path....

Regards,

--Greg

At 02:35 PM 4/22/02 +0000, atagrasin wrote:

>HI RAM,GREG and Madathilnair:I agree that there is the "appearance"

>of choice.But all choices are conditioned .There is some proposing

>here that there can be a "subtle interaction with the Eternal or

>a "limited free will".But if it's is limited it's not free!Greg ask

>what this issue of the illusion of free will have to do with advaita

>my answer is that this belief this sense of personal doership and

>free will or determinism are the true obstacles for the "final"

>understanding of advaita Non-dual.The true questions are, Who is

>doing the actions? Who's free will?Who's determined by whom?The

>answer for this questions is the understanding that advaita bring

>about.But this understanding happening is not in the hand of

>any "illusory entity".There is no "separate entity" to be aware of an

>answer.Understanding is all[a good concept that "someones" use has a

>cliche], About the question "Do you choice to post here?Yes choice to

>post happen but not by a "me".Posting happen spontaneous.Why?Why not?

>How?"Marvelous","wonderfulamazing".Regards Atagrasin

>

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April 22, 2002

Atagrasinji and Madathilanirji, namaste

I am amazed and rather puzzled at the profound and deep levels that the

discussion on choice and freewill is taking us. I think the issue is crossing

the threshold of complication. I don't think I can soar so high. I would like

to look at these things more elementarily. My elementary presentation is in a

sequence of web pages starting from

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/paradox1.html

I would like to know from this group whether I am anywhere begging the question

in that presentation of mine of this very subject of choice and free will, for

the layman's understanding.

Thank you.

Yours, with pranAms to all advaitins,

profvk

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more

http://games./

April 23, 2002

Dear Sir,

It is your astounding humility that makes you say that your

presentation is elementary.

Although I remember to have read its contents at your site before, re-

reading it this morning was a very educative experience. The

presentation is not elementary - it is all-comprehensive. I cannot

say I have covered it completely in the sense that there still remain

suggested links for me to click open and read like the section on

Varnas etc.

Atagrasinji and the rest of us so far have been looking at the

question through just a small window - i.e. from the point of view of

Benjamin Libet's experiments and findings. In contrast, visiting

your site was like being in an open ground and wondering at the

magnificence of the heavens. Thanks for the experience.

For all our intellectual gymnastics on free-will, we can never escape

the ultimate conclusion that surrender is our only salvation. Your

presentation brings this truth out beautifully and systematically.

Pranams.

Madathil Nair

________________

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> Atagrasinji and Madathilanirji, namaste

> I am amazed and rather puzzled at the profound and deep levels that

the

> discussion on choice and freewill is taking us. I think the issue

is crossing

> the threshold of complication. I don't think I can soar so high. I

would like

> to look at these things more elementarily. My elementary

presentation is in a

> sequence of web pages starting from

> http://www.geocities.com/profvk/paradox1.html

>

> I would like to know from this group whether I am anywhere begging

the question

> in that presentation of mine of this very subject of choice and

free will, for

> the layman's understanding.

> Thank you.

> Yours, with pranAms to all advaitins,

> profvk

>

> =====

> Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

> My website on Science and Spirituality is

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

> You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought

Vision and Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's

manuscripts from the site.

>

> Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more

> http://games./

April 23, 2002

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> Dear Sir,

>

> >

> Atagrasinji and the rest of us so far have been looking at the

> question through just a small window - i.e. from the point of view

of

> Benjamin Libet's experiments and findings. >

> For all our intellectual gymnastics on free-will, we can never

escape

> the ultimate conclusion that surrender is our only salvation. Your

> presentation brings this truth out beautifully and systematically.

HI MR: Madathil Nair,Yes MR Libet findings are only an small window

V.Krishnamurthy insight an small window too.Where is the Big window?

In the asking who have free will?, who is determined by whom?who have

to surrender to whom? The "answer"[no a intellectual cliche] to this

question is the realization that advaita describe .Intellectual

gymnastics and surrender imply a "doer" an "separate entity" that

have to do something to his salvation.Advaita post that the true

destiny of the "seeker" the "Ientity"or "doer" is annihilation no

salvation.Who is the true annihilator? The true understanding[no

intellectual] that "Consciousness is all"[not has a cliche] [no-

duality, no entity, no doer]. "Dualism" seems to exist only has

appareances.But the true understanding is no go to happen to a "you"

or bring about by a "you" effort..Regards Atagrasin

> ________________

> advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> > Atagrasinji and Madathilanirji, namaste

> > I am amazed and rather puzzled at the profound and deep levels

that

> the

> > discussion on choice and freewill is taking us. I think the issue

> is crossing

> > the threshold of complication. I don't think I can soar so high.

I

> would like

> > to look at these things more elementarily. My elementary

> presentation is in a

> > sequence of web pages starting from

> > http://www.geocities.com/profvk/paradox1.html

> >

> > I would like to know from this group whether I am anywhere

begging

> the question

> > in that presentation of mine of this very subject of choice and

> free will, for

> > the layman's understanding.

> > Thank you.

> > Yours, with pranAms to all advaitins,

> > profvk

> >

> > =====

> > Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

> > My website on Science and Spirituality is

> http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

> > You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought

> Vision and Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's

> manuscripts from the site.

> >

> > Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more

> > http://games./

April 23, 2002

advaitin, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> Hi Atagrasin,

>

> Thanks for addressing my question. You mention that the free will

issue is an obstacle to the "final understanding" of non-dual

advaita. It is a provisional, partial teaching only. Even if this

issue falls away, the show is not over. There are STILL obstacles

left, so this "understanding" is not "final." And it has nothing to

say about the other obstacles that it leaves in its path....

HI GREG:THe obstacle to the final understanding is not the free will

issue but WHO HAVE OR NOT FREE WILL.There is not other obstacles

after the obstacle of a "YOU" or a "doer" fall away.There is not a

need to cut the branches[obstacles]The trunk is the illusion of and

entity or a "separated doership".This is not "Partial teaching"this

is the "Teaching" that Advaita post.Very easy teaching: "YOU" are the

only obstacle.Regards Ken

April 23, 2002

Hello Atagrasin,

Your two slogans are not equivalent. "There is no doer" does not get you to

"Consciousness is all." So what if doership is gone. That still leaves

everything else in a big dualistic mass of appearances. There are lots of

metaphysical and liberational theories in which independent doership plays no

part. You could be a thoroughgoing materialist and posit no doership. Rocks

and trees have no doership.

But on the other hand, if Consciousness is All is one's slogan, then who needs

the no-doership teaching?

A small window is all that is needed!

Regards,

--Greg

At 03:42 PM 4/23/02 +0000, atagrasin wrote:

HI MR: Madathil Nair,Yes MR Libet findings are only an small window

>V.Krishnamurthy insight an small window too.Where is the Big window?

>In the asking who have free will?, who is determined by whom?who have

>to surrender to whom? The "answer"[no a intellectual cliche] to this

>question is the realization that advaita describe .Intellectual

>gymnastics and surrender imply a "doer" an "separate entity" that

>have to do something to his salvation.Advaita post that the true

>destiny of the "seeker" the "Ientity"or "doer" is annihilation no

>salvation.Who is the true annihilator? The true understanding[no

>intellectual] that "Consciousness is all"[not has a cliche] [no-

>duality, no entity, no doer]. "Dualism" seems to exist only has

>appareances.But the true understanding is no go to happen to a "you"

>or bring about by a "you" effort..Regards Atagrasin

April 23, 2002

My dear Atagrasinji,

I am afraid you got me all wrong.

First about window size. You will agree with me that Prof.

Krishnamoorthy has presented the traditional point of view covering a

vast number of sources. In that sense, he has done a great job and

service to aspiring advaitins. By indicating appropriate links, he

has also invited the visitor to further depths on the topics covered

in the chapter relating to free will. He has also indicated that as

one evolves the meaning and scope of free will inevitably changes and

one will be able to understand that free will ultimately remains in

the Self, who you, me, Prof. Krishnamoorty and others on this forum

are after. It is a point of view that you also are trying to zero

in, if I am not mistaken in properly interpreting your so many posts

on this forum. Acknowledging the fact that Prof. Moorthy has covered

a vast area of the vedantic landscape and in appreciation of the

pains and labour he has taken to do so, I just described the

experience of visiting his site as standing on an open ground and

wondering at the splendour of the heavens. What is wrong with that

expression of sentiment and why do you take objection to it?

Now to come to surrender. I was not referring to any "surrender"

with a sense of "surrenderership". Prof. Krishnamoorthy has

explained this well in his presentation. This surrender is not like

the Al-Qaeda terrorists giving themselves up to the US Army in

Afghanistan. This is an appreciation that One Oneself is

everything. If One is everything, then there is no question of one

entity surrendering itself or anything that belongs to it to another

entity. I am sure this is your wavelength too. However, inspite of

this Knowledge, I may still operate in this world and in this forum

as though I experience duality. We have the rainbow and all of us

know that a rainbow is just light reflected in atmospheric moisture.

Still the poets among us wax eloquent about the beauty of the rainbow

although they know the scientific truth that make rainbows. Or,

another example is our good old moon. Forget about the poet who

said "That grey-faced lady with a grave smile, whom we mortals call

the moon" - he was rather cynical and as a vedantin I can't

appreciate that cynisism. We still need the moon in our sentimental

and romantic modes, although we know that it is a mass of barren land

hostile to life. Similarly, we vedantins know that we are

everything. However, in our duality mode ,we may employ words

like "surrender" which imply a duality. Atagarsinji, you have to see

through it and appreciate the poor vedantin's point of view. Kindly

see that there is no doership or effort here. We are just

spontaneous.

I hope you are with me.

Best regards Atagarsinji.

Madathil Nair

____________________________

> advaitin, Shri Atagarsinji wrote:

"madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> > Dear Sir,

> >

> > >

> > Atagrasinji and the rest of us so far have been looking at the

> > question through just a small window - i.e. from the point of

view

> of

> > Benjamin Libet's experiments and findings. >

> > For all our intellectual gymnastics on free-will, we can never

> escape

> > the ultimate conclusion that surrender is our only salvation.

Your

> > presentation brings this truth out beautifully and systematically.

> HI MR: Madathil Nair,Yes MR Libet findings are only an small window

> V.Krishnamurthy insight an small window too.Where is the Big window?

> In the asking who have free will?, who is determined by whom?who

have

> to surrender to whom? The "answer"[no a intellectual cliche] to

this

> question is the realization that advaita describe .Intellectual

> gymnastics and surrender imply a "doer" an "separate entity" that

> have to do something to his salvation.Advaita post that the true

> destiny of the "seeker" the "Ientity"or "doer" is annihilation

no

> salvation.Who is the true annihilator? The true understanding[no

> intellectual] that "Consciousness is all"[not has a cliche] [no-

> duality, no entity, no doer]. "Dualism" seems to exist only has

> appareances.But the true understanding is no go to happen to

a "you"

> or bring about by a "you" effort..Regards Atagrasin

>

April 23, 2002