Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 HI RAM,GREG and Madathilnair:I agree that there is the "appearance" of choice.But all choices are conditioned .There is some proposing here that there can be a "subtle interaction with the Eternal or a "limited free will".But if it's is limited it's not free!Greg ask what this issue of the illusion of free will have to do with advaita my answer is that this belief this sense of personal doership and free will or determinism are the true obstacles for the "final" understanding of advaita Non-dual.The true questions are, Who is doing the actions? Who's free will?Who's determined by whom?The answer for this questions is the understanding that advaita bring about.But this understanding happening is not in the hand of any "illusory entity".There is no "separate entity" to be aware of an answer.Understanding is all[a good concept that "someones" use has a cliche], About the question "Do you choice to post here?Yes choice to post happen but not by a "me".Posting happen spontaneous.Why?Why not? How?"Marvelous","wonderfulamazing".Regards Atagrasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 Hi Atagrasin, Thanks for addressing my question. You mention that the free will issue is an obstacle to the "final understanding" of non-dual advaita. It is a provisional, partial teaching only. Even if this issue falls away, the show is not over. There are STILL obstacles left, so this "understanding" is not "final." And it has nothing to say about the other obstacles that it leaves in its path.... Regards, --Greg At 02:35 PM 4/22/02 +0000, atagrasin wrote: >HI RAM,GREG and Madathilnair:I agree that there is the "appearance" >of choice.But all choices are conditioned .There is some proposing >here that there can be a "subtle interaction with the Eternal or >a "limited free will".But if it's is limited it's not free!Greg ask >what this issue of the illusion of free will have to do with advaita >my answer is that this belief this sense of personal doership and >free will or determinism are the true obstacles for the "final" >understanding of advaita Non-dual.The true questions are, Who is >doing the actions? Who's free will?Who's determined by whom?The >answer for this questions is the understanding that advaita bring >about.But this understanding happening is not in the hand of >any "illusory entity".There is no "separate entity" to be aware of an >answer.Understanding is all[a good concept that "someones" use has a >cliche], About the question "Do you choice to post here?Yes choice to >post happen but not by a "me".Posting happen spontaneous.Why?Why not? >How?"Marvelous","wonderfulamazing".Regards Atagrasin > > > Sponsor > ><http://rd./M=217097.2003762.3481930.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705075991:\ HM/A=1042587/R=0/*http://service.bfast.com/bfast/click?bfmid=29150849&siteid=392\ 82504&bfpage=account>c7c0607.jpg >c7c08b0.jpg > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: <http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/>http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaiti\ n/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: <advaitin/messages>a\ dvaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to the <> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 Atagrasinji and Madathilanirji, namaste I am amazed and rather puzzled at the profound and deep levels that the discussion on choice and freewill is taking us. I think the issue is crossing the threshold of complication. I don't think I can soar so high. I would like to look at these things more elementarily. My elementary presentation is in a sequence of web pages starting from http://www.geocities.com/profvk/paradox1.html I would like to know from this group whether I am anywhere begging the question in that presentation of mine of this very subject of choice and free will, for the layman's understanding. Thank you. Yours, with pranAms to all advaitins, profvk ===== Prof. V. Krishnamurthy My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/ You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site. Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 Dear Sir, It is your astounding humility that makes you say that your presentation is elementary. Although I remember to have read its contents at your site before, re- reading it this morning was a very educative experience. The presentation is not elementary - it is all-comprehensive. I cannot say I have covered it completely in the sense that there still remain suggested links for me to click open and read like the section on Varnas etc. Atagrasinji and the rest of us so far have been looking at the question through just a small window - i.e. from the point of view of Benjamin Libet's experiments and findings. In contrast, visiting your site was like being in an open ground and wondering at the magnificence of the heavens. Thanks for the experience. For all our intellectual gymnastics on free-will, we can never escape the ultimate conclusion that surrender is our only salvation. Your presentation brings this truth out beautifully and systematically. Pranams. Madathil Nair ________________ advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote: > Atagrasinji and Madathilanirji, namaste > I am amazed and rather puzzled at the profound and deep levels that the > discussion on choice and freewill is taking us. I think the issue is crossing > the threshold of complication. I don't think I can soar so high. I would like > to look at these things more elementarily. My elementary presentation is in a > sequence of web pages starting from > http://www.geocities.com/profvk/paradox1.html > > I would like to know from this group whether I am anywhere begging the question > in that presentation of mine of this very subject of choice and free will, for > the layman's understanding. > Thank you. > Yours, with pranAms to all advaitins, > profvk > > ===== > Prof. V. Krishnamurthy > My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/ > You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site. > > > > Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote: > Dear Sir, > > > > Atagrasinji and the rest of us so far have been looking at the > question through just a small window - i.e. from the point of view of > Benjamin Libet's experiments and findings. > > For all our intellectual gymnastics on free-will, we can never escape > the ultimate conclusion that surrender is our only salvation. Your > presentation brings this truth out beautifully and systematically. HI MR: Madathil Nair,Yes MR Libet findings are only an small window V.Krishnamurthy insight an small window too.Where is the Big window? In the asking who have free will?, who is determined by whom?who have to surrender to whom? The "answer"[no a intellectual cliche] to this question is the realization that advaita describe .Intellectual gymnastics and surrender imply a "doer" an "separate entity" that have to do something to his salvation.Advaita post that the true destiny of the "seeker" the "Ientity"or "doer" is annihilation no salvation.Who is the true annihilator? The true understanding[no intellectual] that "Consciousness is all"[not has a cliche] [no- duality, no entity, no doer]. "Dualism" seems to exist only has appareances.But the true understanding is no go to happen to a "you" or bring about by a "you" effort..Regards Atagrasin > ________________ > advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote: > > Atagrasinji and Madathilanirji, namaste > > I am amazed and rather puzzled at the profound and deep levels that > the > > discussion on choice and freewill is taking us. I think the issue > is crossing > > the threshold of complication. I don't think I can soar so high. I > would like > > to look at these things more elementarily. My elementary > presentation is in a > > sequence of web pages starting from > > http://www.geocities.com/profvk/paradox1.html > > > > I would like to know from this group whether I am anywhere begging > the question > > in that presentation of mine of this very subject of choice and > free will, for > > the layman's understanding. > > Thank you. > > Yours, with pranAms to all advaitins, > > profvk > > > > ===== > > Prof. V. Krishnamurthy > > My website on Science and Spirituality is > http://www.geocities.com/profvk/ > > You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought > Vision and Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's > manuscripts from the site. > > > > > > > > Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > > http://games./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 advaitin, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote: > Hi Atagrasin, > > Thanks for addressing my question. You mention that the free will issue is an obstacle to the "final understanding" of non-dual advaita. It is a provisional, partial teaching only. Even if this issue falls away, the show is not over. There are STILL obstacles left, so this "understanding" is not "final." And it has nothing to say about the other obstacles that it leaves in its path.... HI GREG:THe obstacle to the final understanding is not the free will issue but WHO HAVE OR NOT FREE WILL.There is not other obstacles after the obstacle of a "YOU" or a "doer" fall away.There is not a need to cut the branches[obstacles]The trunk is the illusion of and entity or a "separated doership".This is not "Partial teaching"this is the "Teaching" that Advaita post.Very easy teaching: "YOU" are the only obstacle.Regards Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 Hello Atagrasin, Your two slogans are not equivalent. "There is no doer" does not get you to "Consciousness is all." So what if doership is gone. That still leaves everything else in a big dualistic mass of appearances. There are lots of metaphysical and liberational theories in which independent doership plays no part. You could be a thoroughgoing materialist and posit no doership. Rocks and trees have no doership. But on the other hand, if Consciousness is All is one's slogan, then who needs the no-doership teaching? A small window is all that is needed! Regards, --Greg At 03:42 PM 4/23/02 +0000, atagrasin wrote: HI MR: Madathil Nair,Yes MR Libet findings are only an small window >V.Krishnamurthy insight an small window too.Where is the Big window? >In the asking who have free will?, who is determined by whom?who have >to surrender to whom? The "answer"[no a intellectual cliche] to this >question is the realization that advaita describe .Intellectual >gymnastics and surrender imply a "doer" an "separate entity" that >have to do something to his salvation.Advaita post that the true >destiny of the "seeker" the "Ientity"or "doer" is annihilation no >salvation.Who is the true annihilator? The true understanding[no >intellectual] that "Consciousness is all"[not has a cliche] [no- >duality, no entity, no doer]. "Dualism" seems to exist only has >appareances.But the true understanding is no go to happen to a "you" >or bring about by a "you" effort..Regards Atagrasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 My dear Atagrasinji, I am afraid you got me all wrong. First about window size. You will agree with me that Prof. Krishnamoorthy has presented the traditional point of view covering a vast number of sources. In that sense, he has done a great job and service to aspiring advaitins. By indicating appropriate links, he has also invited the visitor to further depths on the topics covered in the chapter relating to free will. He has also indicated that as one evolves the meaning and scope of free will inevitably changes and one will be able to understand that free will ultimately remains in the Self, who you, me, Prof. Krishnamoorty and others on this forum are after. It is a point of view that you also are trying to zero in, if I am not mistaken in properly interpreting your so many posts on this forum. Acknowledging the fact that Prof. Moorthy has covered a vast area of the vedantic landscape and in appreciation of the pains and labour he has taken to do so, I just described the experience of visiting his site as standing on an open ground and wondering at the splendour of the heavens. What is wrong with that expression of sentiment and why do you take objection to it? Now to come to surrender. I was not referring to any "surrender" with a sense of "surrenderership". Prof. Krishnamoorthy has explained this well in his presentation. This surrender is not like the Al-Qaeda terrorists giving themselves up to the US Army in Afghanistan. This is an appreciation that One Oneself is everything. If One is everything, then there is no question of one entity surrendering itself or anything that belongs to it to another entity. I am sure this is your wavelength too. However, inspite of this Knowledge, I may still operate in this world and in this forum as though I experience duality. We have the rainbow and all of us know that a rainbow is just light reflected in atmospheric moisture. Still the poets among us wax eloquent about the beauty of the rainbow although they know the scientific truth that make rainbows. Or, another example is our good old moon. Forget about the poet who said "That grey-faced lady with a grave smile, whom we mortals call the moon" - he was rather cynical and as a vedantin I can't appreciate that cynisism. We still need the moon in our sentimental and romantic modes, although we know that it is a mass of barren land hostile to life. Similarly, we vedantins know that we are everything. However, in our duality mode ,we may employ words like "surrender" which imply a duality. Atagarsinji, you have to see through it and appreciate the poor vedantin's point of view. Kindly see that there is no doership or effort here. We are just spontaneous. I hope you are with me. Best regards Atagarsinji. Madathil Nair ____________________________ > advaitin, Shri Atagarsinji wrote: "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote: > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > > Atagrasinji and the rest of us so far have been looking at the > > question through just a small window - i.e. from the point of view > of > > Benjamin Libet's experiments and findings. > > > For all our intellectual gymnastics on free-will, we can never > escape > > the ultimate conclusion that surrender is our only salvation. Your > > presentation brings this truth out beautifully and systematically. > HI MR: Madathil Nair,Yes MR Libet findings are only an small window > V.Krishnamurthy insight an small window too.Where is the Big window? > In the asking who have free will?, who is determined by whom?who have > to surrender to whom? The "answer"[no a intellectual cliche] to this > question is the realization that advaita describe .Intellectual > gymnastics and surrender imply a "doer" an "separate entity" that > have to do something to his salvation.Advaita post that the true > destiny of the "seeker" the "Ientity"or "doer" is annihilation no > salvation.Who is the true annihilator? The true understanding[no > intellectual] that "Consciousness is all"[not has a cliche] [no- > duality, no entity, no doer]. "Dualism" seems to exist only has > appareances.But the true understanding is no go to happen to a "you" > or bring about by a "you" effort..Regards Atagrasin > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 My dear Atagrasinji, I am afraid you got me all wrong. First about window size. You will agree with me that Prof. Krishnamoorthy has presented the traditional point of view covering a vast number of sources. In that sense, he has done a great job and service to aspiring advaitins. By indicating appropriate links, he has also invited the visitor to further depths on the topics covered in the chapter relating to free will. He has also indicated that as one evolves the meaning and scope of free will inevitably changes and one will be able to understand that free will ultimately remains in the Self, who you, me, Prof. Krishnamoorty and others on this forum are after. It is a point of view that you also are trying to zero in, if I am not mistaken in properly interpreting your so many posts on this forum. Acknowledging the fact that Prof. Moorthy has covered a vast area of the vedantic landscape and in appreciation of the pains and labour he has taken to do so, I just described the experience of visiting his site as standing on an open ground and wondering at the splendour of the heavens. What is wrong with that expression of sentiment and why do you take objection to it? Now to come to surrender. I was not referring to any "surrender" with a sense of "surrenderership". Prof. Krishnamoorthy has explained this well in his presentation. This surrender is not like the Al-Qaeda terrorists giving themselves up to the US Army in Afghanistan. This is an appreciation that One Oneself is everything. If One is everything, then there is no question of one entity surrendering itself or anything that belongs to it to another entity. I am sure this is your wavelength too. However, inspite of this Knowledge, I may still operate in this world and in this forum as though I experience duality. We have the rainbow and all of us know that a rainbow is just light reflected in atmospheric moisture. Still the poets among us wax eloquent about the beauty of the rainbow although they know the scientific truth that make rainbows. Or, another example is our good old moon. Forget about the poet who said "That grey-faced lady with a grave smile, whom we mortals call the moon" - he was rather cynical and as a vedantin I can't appreciate that cynisism. We still need the moon in our sentimental and romantic modes, although we know that it is a mass of barren land hostile to life. Similarly, we vedantins know that we are everything. However, in our duality mode ,we may employ words like "surrender" which imply a duality. Atagarsinji, you have to see through it and appreciate the poor vedantin's point of view. Kindly see that there is no doership or effort here. We are just spontaneous. I hope you are with me. Best regards Atagarsinji. Madathil Nair ____________________________ > advaitin, Shri Atagarsinji wrote: "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote: > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > > Atagrasinji and the rest of us so far have been looking at the > > question through just a small window - i.e. from the point of view > of > > Benjamin Libet's experiments and findings. > > > For all our intellectual gymnastics on free-will, we can never > escape > > the ultimate conclusion that surrender is our only salvation. Your > > presentation brings this truth out beautifully and systematically. > HI MR: Madathil Nair,Yes MR Libet findings are only an small window > V.Krishnamurthy insight an small window too.Where is the Big window? > In the asking who have free will?, who is determined by whom?who have > to surrender to whom? The "answer"[no a intellectual cliche] to this > question is the realization that advaita describe .Intellectual > gymnastics and surrender imply a "doer" an "separate entity" that > have to do something to his salvation.Advaita post that the true > destiny of the "seeker" the "Ientity"or "doer" is annihilation no > salvation.Who is the true annihilator? The true understanding[no > intellectual] that "Consciousness is all"[not has a cliche] [no- > duality, no entity, no doer]. "Dualism" seems to exist only has > appareances.But the true understanding is no go to happen to a "you" > or bring about by a "you" effort..Regards Atagrasin > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote: > My dear Atagrasinji, > > >I am afraid you got me all wrong. > No my dear Madathil >> First about window size. You will agree with me that Prof. > >Krishnamoorthy has presented the traditional point of view c>overing I just described the > >experience of visiting his site as standing on an open ground and > >wondering at the splendour of the heavens. What is wrong with that >> expression of sentiment and why do you take objection to it? Nothing wrong no objection only diferent pointers[windows] > Now to come to surrender. I was not referring to any "surrender" Thank for the clarification about what you mean by surrender.I don't find any difference with my concepts.Thanks regards atagrasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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