Realization in Advaita from a no traditional scholary view

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> Hello profvk,

HI Mr Gregory:You posted

> I heartily agree that negations must be made at *every level* at

which experience occurs, not just the thin intellectual channel of

experience. It's the difference between a philosophy class and an

experience-altering investigation.

There is seekers who expecting some flash of enlightment that

can "alter his experience"There is a lot of misunderstanings around

concerning the spirituals events seekers are waiting for.They expect

that they will be in perfect bliss 24 hours a day,and so on.You see

Conciousness appears here has everything,right now,and we don,t have

to run anywhere or hoping for "expiritual altering experiences" to

try to find this conciousness.Who is having all these experiences

including our so call daily problems of life?Conciousness is having

them.You see :it's as simple has that.This understanding is not

attractive to the mind who like to find "obtacles".You are

conciousness What else could you be?There is only Conciousness.We are

waiting for a transcendental event,wich gave you permission to

be 'That'You are avoiding realisation by waiting for an event and

thats expectation will make you to believe that you are still

not "there yet".You see an event is just an event,be it trancendental

or not.In the end it really doesn't matter.I read some posts here

from brothers that already understand this,they already know who they

are,they already realise that all there is ,is conciousness,but they

want it proved to them.But No person,guru,traditional advaita,or neo-

advaita paths,no experience,or event is going to prove it to

you,because you are already that anyway.It like water wanting to

prove that it is wet.The seeker can never became a finder,at the

moment of "finding",you see that there was nothing to find anyway.You

where already that which you where looking for.You don't awake from

the dream you awake to the dream.Advaita is not about becoming

special but just the opposite:it is about the Is-ness of plain

ordinary life.You still see feelings and thoughts comming by,but

there is no longer a craving for something "more".There is just an

ordinary life being lived;nobody else would notice any

difference.Despite the pain or whatever problem you want to get rid

of there is this "background of knowing"You just know that everything

is exactly as it should be,because everything that happen is an an

expression of conciousness anyway.It a game a play[a drama].We don't

have to get ready[with practices or not practises]for this because we

are "It".There is nothing to give up,there is nothing to

get.Conscioussness play the part of the desperate seeker and then

conciousness also play the part of someone who really sees his true

identity.That's how it goes.And there is not purpose to it.Liberation

is not an award for those who behaved well and did his meditations

twice a day.This understanding and the negation of this illusory

aspect of many beliefs and systems is what sages call "neti-

neti".Seekers can feel frustated with this position [calling it neo-

advaita] because they want to "do" something.Many people don't want

to hear this approach.The game is over,the spell is broken.You are

conciousness That all there is, What else could you be?

Stop "pretending" you are not it......regards atagrasin

[Guest guest]

The seeker expects to find something. The Finder evaporates, finding nothing,

yet nothing is missing.

 

Regards,

 

--Greg

 

At 03:45 PM 4/24/02 +0000, atagrasin wrote:

>advaitin, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

>> Hello profvk,

>HI Mr Gregory:You posted

>> I heartily agree that negations must be made at *every level* at

>which experience occurs, not just the thin intellectual channel of

>experience. It's the difference between a philosophy class and an

>experience-altering investigation.

>There is seekers who expecting some flash of enlightment that

>can "alter his experience"There is a lot of misunderstanings around

>concerning the spirituals events seekers are waiting for.They expect

>that they will be in perfect bliss 24 hours a day,and so on.You see

>Conciousness appears here has everything,right now,and we don,t have

>to run anywhere or hoping for "expiritual altering experiences" to

>try to find this conciousness.Who is having all these experiences

>including our so call daily problems of life?Conciousness is having

>them.You see :it's as simple has that.This understanding is not

>attractive to the mind who like to find "obtacles".You are

>conciousness What else could you be?There is only Conciousness.We are

>waiting for a transcendental event,wich gave you permission to

>be 'That'You are avoiding realisation by waiting for an event and

>thats expectation will make you to believe that you are still

>not "there yet".You see an event is just an event,be it trancendental

>or not.In the end it really doesn't matter.I read some posts here

>from brothers that already understand this,they already know who they

>are,they already realise that all there is ,is conciousness,but they

>want it proved to them.But No person,guru,traditional advaita,or neo-

>advaita paths,no experience,or event is going to prove it to

>you,because you are already that anyway.It like water wanting to

>prove that it is wet.The seeker can never became a finder,at the

>moment of "finding",you see that there was nothing to find anyway.You

>where already that which you where looking for.You don't awake from

>the dream you awake to the dream.Advaita is not about becoming

>special but just the opposite:it is about the Is-ness of plain

>ordinary life.You still see feelings and thoughts comming by,but

>there is no longer a craving for something "more".There is just an

>ordinary life being lived;nobody else would notice any

>difference.Despite the pain or whatever problem you want to get rid

>of there is this "background of knowing"You just know that everything

>is exactly as it should be,because everything that happen is an an

>expression of conciousness anyway.It a game a play[a drama].We don't

>have to get ready[with practices or not practises]for this because we

>are "It".There is nothing to give up,there is nothing to

>get.Conscioussness play the part of the desperate seeker and then

>conciousness also play the part of someone who really sees his true

>identity.That's how it goes.And there is not purpose to it.Liberation

>is not an award for those who behaved well and did his meditations

>twice a day.This understanding and the negation of this illusory

>aspect of many beliefs and systems is what sages call "neti-

>neti".Seekers can feel frustated with this position [calling it neo-

>advaita] because they want to "do" something.Many people don't want

>to hear this approach.The game is over,the spell is broken.You are

>conciousness That all there is, What else could you be?

>Stop "pretending" you are not it......regards atagrasin

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the fascinating post.

 

First, though, if what you say is true, how do you account for the

experiences of so many who seem to say that there was a time when they did

not know themselves, and a time when they did?

 

Second, you advise us to stop "pretending." Are you saying that this is

purely a matter of faith (thus the de-emphasis on proof)? How do you

distinguish this from brainwashing?

>

> atagrasin [k1c2]

> Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:46 AM

> advaitin

> Realization in Advaita from a no traditional

> scholary view

>

>

> advaitin, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> > Hello profvk,

> HI Mr Gregory:You posted

> > I heartily agree that negations must be made at *every level* at

> which experience occurs, not just the thin intellectual channel of

> experience. It's the difference between a philosophy class and an

> experience-altering investigation.

> There is seekers who expecting some flash of enlightment that

> can "alter his experience"There is a lot of misunderstanings around

> concerning the spirituals events seekers are waiting for.They expect

> that they will be in perfect bliss 24 hours a day,and so on.You see

> Conciousness appears here has everything,right now,and we don,t have

> to run anywhere or hoping for "expiritual altering experiences" to

> try to find this conciousness.Who is having all these experiences

> including our so call daily problems of life?Conciousness is having

> them.You see :it's as simple has that.This understanding is not

> attractive to the mind who like to find "obtacles".You are

> conciousness What else could you be?There is only Conciousness.We are

> waiting for a transcendental event,wich gave you permission to

> be 'That'You are avoiding realisation by waiting for an event and

> thats expectation will make you to believe that you are still

> not "there yet".You see an event is just an event,be it trancendental

> or not.In the end it really doesn't matter.I read some posts here

> from brothers that already understand this,they already know who they

> are,they already realise that all there is ,is conciousness,but they

> want it proved to them.But No person,guru,traditional advaita,or neo-

> advaita paths,no experience,or event is going to prove it to

> you,because you are already that anyway.It like water wanting to

> prove that it is wet.The seeker can never became a finder,at the

> moment of "finding",you see that there was nothing to find anyway.You

> where already that which you where looking for.You don't awake from

> the dream you awake to the dream.Advaita is not about becoming

> special but just the opposite:it is about the Is-ness of plain

> ordinary life.You still see feelings and thoughts comming by,but

> there is no longer a craving for something "more".There is just an

> ordinary life being lived;nobody else would notice any

> difference.Despite the pain or whatever problem you want to get rid

> of there is this "background of knowing"You just know that everything

> is exactly as it should be,because everything that happen is an an

> expression of conciousness anyway.It a game a play[a drama].We don't

> have to get ready[with practices or not practises]for this because we

> are "It".There is nothing to give up,there is nothing to

> get.Conscioussness play the part of the desperate seeker and then

> conciousness also play the part of someone who really sees his true

> identity.That's how it goes.And there is not purpose to it.Liberation

> is not an award for those who behaved well and did his meditations

> twice a day.This understanding and the negation of this illusory

> aspect of many beliefs and systems is what sages call "neti-

> neti".Seekers can feel frustated with this position [calling it neo-

> advaita] because they want to "do" something.Many people don't want

> to hear this approach.The game is over,the spell is broken.You are

> conciousness That all there is, What else could you be?

> Stop "pretending" you are not it......regards atagrasin

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

> nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

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To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

>>

There is a lot of misunderstaning around

concerning the spirituals events seekers are waiting for.

>>

 

Like Sri Gregory says the seeker expects to find something. As long

as you are a seeker, you find yourself seeking. You continue this

process till the seeker himself evaporates..

Square 1:

Let us call this "Seeker seeking" as Sqaure1

>>

They expect

that they will be in perfect bliss 24 hours a day,and so on.

>>

 

On other hand if you don't know your nature to be infinite bliss,

(know - meaning directly know by first hand experience, completely

without an iota of doubt, like a fruit in the palm of your own hand)

then you are not realized anyway!. You necessarily HAVE to continue

seeking and go back to square 1.

>>

It a game a play[a drama].We don't

have to get ready[with practices or not practises]for this because we

are "It".There is nothing to give up,there is nothing to

get.Conscioussness play the part of the desperate seeker and then

conciousness also play the part of someone who really sees his true

identity.That's how it goes.And there is not purpose to it.

>>

 

On the contrary, there is ALL the purpose to it:

 

When the Self is realized whatever has to be accomplished stands

accomplished, and whatever has to be acquired stands acquired. Hence

there is nothing higher than the realization of the Self.

(Apastamba Dharma Sutras, 1.22.2)

>>

Many people don't want

to hear this approach.The game is over,the spell is broken.You are

conciousness That all there is, What else could you be?

Stop "pretending" you are not it......

>>

 

Hmm. If only Sri Sankara or Sri Patanjali had known this "secret"

path - They wouldn't have had to spend their lifetime doing what they

did!

 

Reminds me again of the story I posted a few days earlier that Sri

Vidyaranya often quotes. An award was announced for someone who had

mastered all the four vedas. A person stuck his hand up and said he

deserves the award because he knows that the vedas are four in

number!.

 

If it was all so easy why does Lord Krishna says " Rare is he who

knows Vasudeva is all" and " fructifies after lifetimes of effort",

why would Katha Upanishad describe the path is like a "Razors' edge",

why does Sri Patanjali talk about "deergha kale" practice for a long

time, why does Gaudapada advocate effort akin to emptying an ocean

with the blade of a grass

 

so on and on..

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sundar Rajanji,

 

Let us try at some reconciliation, if at all possible.

 

There is truth in what Atagrasinji says. But he seems to be very

impatient and in terrific hurry.

 

My teacher had taught me that if one has this knowledge that

Atagrasinji is talking about, then what one should immediately begin

doing is "living this knowledge deliberately" till such living

becomes spontaneous. And that is the walking on razor's edge that

you talked about. Who is prepared to do that? Inspite of all the

lofty things that I write, I find myself unable to accept even small

mistakes on the part of my daughters. See the way that "my" sense is

still hurting me. Of course, I try to pull myself up. That is

another thing. But still "bondage" hooks me back. I, therefore, need

to necessarily take recourse to Sankara, Gaudapada, other sages and

their immortal works as I tread along the "razor's edge". Does that

make sense why Sankara laboured all his life?

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

________________

[Guest guest]

well said....to accept all that appears moment by moment without

resistance[mind] is surrender of the ego to reality...all that is, is the

SELF when mind/thought doesn't allow what is it really doesn't accept its

own total self...just be aware, witness what is, everyone is doing it only

the ego mind[false entity] gums up your own inner natural peaceful Self.....

blessing to all...jaya

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste Sundar Rajanji,

>

> Let us try at some reconciliation, if at all possible.

>

> There is truth in what Atagrasinji says. But he seems to be very

> impatient and in terrific hurry.

No impatience or terrific hurry "here" Are you projecting?

> My teacher had taught me that if one has this knowledge that

> Atagrasinji is talking

about,

then what one should immediately begin

> doing is "living this knowledge deliberately" till such living

> becomes

spontaneous.

The "living this knowledge deliberately"is an spontaneous

happening.This is no a "doing" by an individual entity or a "me".The

knowledge is not key,the knowledge is only an

pointer.

 

And that is the walking on razor's edge that

> you talked about. Who is prepared to do that? Inspite of all the

> lofty things that I write, I find myself unable to accept even

small

> mistakes on the part of my daughters. See the way that "my" sense

is

> still hurting me. Of course, I try to pull myself up. That is

> another thing. But still "bondage" hooks me back. I, therefore,

need

> to necessarily take recourse to Sankara, Gaudapada, other sages and

> their immortal works as I tread along the "razor's edge". Does

that

> make sense why Sankara laboured all his life?

Hey my friend madathil now you seems to be "very

impatient and in terrific hurry".When the deliverance continues and

the understanding deepens,you'll be amazed at the almost infinite

number of finite concepts and reactions that we have in our inherite

conventional wisdom that are gradually weeded out by the

understanding of advaita non-dual teachings, the reading of inmortal

works and by the devotional spiritual practices.Remember pretending

not being Conciousness itself and not see that all is the "cosmic

dramathe dance of the divine" =suffering.This cosmic game is

created whenever "YOU PRETEND THAT WHAT ISN"T,SOMEHOW IS FAR SUPERIOR

TO WHAT IS".The indivisible Consciousness can only manifest the

illusory word of polarities by pretending to be the

divisible.Amazingly,Its nature is to be what It is by pretending

to"become"...what IT's pretending to no be.That's what it is a comic

[and cosmic]game[drama] called "life".. Regards atagrasin.

[Guest guest]

dear sir

 

many times I heard that those that seek themself talk and quote the

scripture... but the one's that realize who they have always been, the

scripture are just words, using many tricks to get you to realize

yourself...it is so easy for mind to become so tangled in this vast game of

paper knowledge. the trick is to pay attention to the witness of the

countless thoughts that flow by you, then you wake up to what you have

always been. what happens over and over again is we keep getting hung up in

the rattling thoughts and take them to mean who we are, this is simply

ignorance that drags us through the slime of suffering. it is this suffering

in are day and age which is the main factor to give the power to realize our

real true source. what the great sage realized of SELF in that age gone is

the same SELF we realize now, only now is now and then was then. live now

because that is all there is. the now is the totality of everything and

nothing at and in the same timeless oneness.be neti neti with everything

then there can be only the real you that remains a constant. why hang on to

what comes and goes hang on to the one that remains always. the trick is

don't identify yourself with anything[that is neti neti] and at the same

time realize everything is your SELF, this is the surrender of ego because

it can't hold that realization its simply beyond the mind. peace and joy to

all...jaya

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Atagrasinji,

 

I am afraid there is a big communication gap between us.

 

You are referring to "a deepening of undestanding and a continuanace

of deliverance". Thus, you have accepted that advancement occurs on

a time scale. Hurry or impatience is only indicative of how a person

operates on this time-scale. So, may I take it that you agree on the

need for "reading of immortal works and spiritual practices" and,

therefore, not saying anything different from what I stated in my

post?

 

The statement "pretending not being Consciousness itself........."

etc. are beyond my comprehension. May I request you to be patient

with my slow understanding and give me (us, if I may say so) an

overview,in very simple terms, of your disagreement, if at all any,

with the traditional point of view . This is requested because we

started from free will vis a vis Libet's findings and have now gone

into generalities. I am afraid we need to use very precise language

here for mutual understanding of poits of view.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

 

_______________

 

advaitin, "atagrasin" <k1c2@h...> wrote:

> Hey my friend madathil now you seems to be "very

> impatient and in terrific hurry".When the deliverance continues

and

> the understanding deepens,you'll be amazed at the almost infinite

> number of finite concepts and reactions that we have in our

inherite

> conventional wisdom that are gradually weeded out by the

> understanding of advaita non-dual teachings, the reading of

inmortal

> works and by the devotional spiritual practices.Remember

pretending

> not being Conciousness itself and not see that all is the "cosmic

> dramathe dance of the divine" =suffering.This cosmic game is

> created whenever "YOU PRETEND THAT WHAT ISN"T,SOMEHOW IS FAR

SUPERIOR

> TO WHAT IS".The indivisible Consciousness can only manifest the

> illusory word of polarities by pretending to be the

> divisible.Amazingly,Its nature is to be what It is by pretending

> to"become"...what IT's pretending to no be.That's what it is a comic

> [and cosmic]game[drama] called "life".. Regards atagrasin.

[Guest guest]

hariH OM! atagrasin-ji,

 

i concur with most of what you're saying with the

exception of mainly two points.

 

for the benefit of those interacting with you in these

recent threads, as well as other List members

following this insightful debate, i should emphasize

the importance of understanding how each individual in

their position on the path (as you outlined the 3

levels of seekers) has quite valid perceptions as well

as objections relative to their position. an obvious

point for most, but all List members should bear this

in mind. many misunderstandings can be thus avoided.

 

 

as for my two points of contention:

 

firstly, upon Self-realization (which, relative to the

majority of advaitins, isn't as exotic or unreachable

as most of them evidently believe...yet this very

attitude that it is seems to be their last and perhaps

most stubborn obstacle), the sense of ananda is most

definitely engaged, yet in some cases not constant

24/7. the fact is that when one realizes their

thoughts are not anything to worship or take stock in

(except in the *very* defined/limited terms within the

vyavahara of the relative leela--which are only

microcosmic and thus not holistic or consequential on

their Totality), they automatically default to the

pure chit [supported of course by sat]. this

inherently natural and primal identification confers

ananda. *however*, this does not mean that one cannot

be temporarily deflected and hence have their identity

rooted in chit and thus its attendant ananda

overshadowed by the lower mind [especially in its

reaction to its inevitable prarabdhakarma]. in such

case, the awakened one needs to confer with and engage

his/her wisdom in order to regain their natural state.

otherwise they're naturally "there." this can be

proved by a simple experiment: feel yourself Being

without any judgmental thought overlays (by ignoring

such), and you will feel an existential bliss at the

base of your sentient BEING. ("sentient" here implying

unalloyed primal awareness.)

 

the second point re the idea of the cessation of

Desire (or "craving," as you put it) upon

Self-realization, is, to my understanding, only a

temporary post-moksha condition. eventually the value

of the relative world re-emerges as one's own [now

seen as an incredibly wondrous and beautiful] Game of

Life (brahman's leela).

 

namaste,

frank

 

 

 

Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more

http://games./

[Guest guest]

Hey Frank-ji,

 

Nice to hear from you!!

 

--Greg

 

At 10:22 AM 4/25/02 -0700, f maiello wrote:

>hariH OM! atagrasin-ji,

>

>i concur with most of what you're saying with the

>exception of mainly two points.

 

 

....