Direction of Science....work in London

[Guest guest]

Dear List members

 

Let me share my experience of the work in London.

 

Today was the start of a new and interesting phase.

 

I had asked one of the youngsters at Brunel University to

arrange for me to give a talk to his engineering faculty on

'Future direction of Science'. I had specified that the title

should not mention words like 'religion, spirituality or

Hinduism' : ) That talk took place today.

 

There were about 10 people present (mostly doing

postgraduate work in engineering).

 

At some stage I have to take on the science community.

My real contribution has to come in the field of 'Science

and Spirituality'.

 

No doubt, I will meet a lot of resistance from the hard-headed

scientists who will never tolerate intrusion in their field by anything

that remotely sounds mystical, or spiritual. Today I had a taste

of what is to come.

 

Today the resistance I encountered was from the following

lobbies.

 

(1) A strongly materialistic lobby that somehow thinks

that findings of quantum mechanics etc are just a temporary

interruption to a further materialistic interpretation of reality.

I responded that "This however is not possible - Science has

entered a new era where explaining reality in terms of material

objects is strictly impossible" -quoting Heisenberg.

So this reaction can be classed as trivial

(just reflecting a lack of real understanding of quantum

mechanics by some in the audience).

 

(2) At the mention of the word 'spirituality' there was another lobby

that was up in arms (this included the head of the department)

against the idea of a creator God...

I had to quickly cut in saying --I am not here to defend a

Judeo-Christian Creator God. I am drawing on an ancient

Hindu philosophy called Samkhya which does not entertain

the concept of 'God' but emphasises 'existence'.

 

The head of the department asked:

Then you are proposing a theory of 'existence' rather than

theory of God?....... I said yes, in this Hindu philosophy 'existence'

is elevated to the status of the ultimate and hence the question:

"Does God exist?" becomes meaningless -as it would translate as

does existence exist?

 

Today's experience was very fruitful. I am beginning to enjoy

this development. From now on my talks at Universities will

focus on themes from Modern Sciences like:

 

(1) What is Quantum Mechanics?

(2) Consciousness in neuroscience

(3) Theory of evolution

 

Will keep the list posted on how this develops : )

 

jay

Vivekananda Centre London

[Guest guest]

--- Vivekananda Centre <vivekananda

wrote:

> Dear List members

>

> Let me share my experience of the work in London.

 

 

Dear Jay,

 

A quick intro. I chair meetings in London of the

Alister Hardy Society at which we have speakers from

across the academic disciplines. The focus of these is

spiritual experience. This year we will have talks

from the point of view of quantum mechanics, a

Christian/advaitin monk, a psychologist etc.

 

I myself am researching a PhD into consciousness

studies, through Vak, from the point of view of

Bhartrihari, Shankara and Kashmiri Shaivism.

Having sat at the feet of Anandamayee Ma in Varanasi

some 35 years ago and having taught Maths and Science

for many years, this combination of topics is quite

natural to me. My wife is a retired GP who has

produced a directory educating the medical profession

as to the needs of the different faith communities in

hospital etc.

 

Alister Hardy was himself a professor of zoology at

Oxford who had maintained an understanding of the

numinous throughout his highly successful academic

career.

 

I think that you are very wise to step into this field

of spirituality and science at this time as I am

convinced that over the next twenty years or so the

arrogance of both camps will be dissolved by a greater

knowledge emerging from the study and experience of

recent generations,

 

Om sri ram jai jai ram

 

ken Knight

 

 

 

Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more

http://games./

[Guest guest]

Dear Jayji

 

Namaskar My Freind

 

Look forward to hearing more of your lectures in the future

 

Thanks and Take Care

 

DharmaDev Arya

 

 

Vivekananda Centre <vivekananda

viv list <vivekananda >; list <ramakrishna >; Self

Knowledge List <selfknow-l

Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:30 AM

Direction of Science....work in London

 

>Dear List members

>

>Let me share my experience of the work in London.

>

>Today was the start of a new and interesting phase.

>

>I had asked one of the youngsters at Brunel University to

>arrange for me to give a talk to his engineering faculty on

>'Future direction of Science'. I had specified that the title

>should not mention words like 'religion, spirituality or

>Hinduism' : ) That talk took place today.

>

>There were about 10 people present (mostly doing

>postgraduate work in engineering).

>

>At some stage I have to take on the science community.

>My real contribution has to come in the field of 'Science

>and Spirituality'.

>

>No doubt, I will meet a lot of resistance from the hard-headed

>scientists who will never tolerate intrusion in their field by anything

>that remotely sounds mystical, or spiritual. Today I had a taste

>of what is to come.

>

>Today the resistance I encountered was from the following

>lobbies.

>

>(1) A strongly materialistic lobby that somehow thinks

>that findings of quantum mechanics etc are just a temporary

>interruption to a further materialistic interpretation of reality.

>I responded that "This however is not possible - Science has

>entered a new era where explaining reality in terms of material

>objects is strictly impossible" -quoting Heisenberg.

>So this reaction can be classed as trivial

>(just reflecting a lack of real understanding of quantum

>mechanics by some in the audience).

>

>(2) At the mention of the word 'spirituality' there was another lobby

>that was up in arms (this included the head of the department)

>against the idea of a creator God...

>I had to quickly cut in saying --I am not here to defend a

>Judeo-Christian Creator God. I am drawing on an ancient

>Hindu philosophy called Samkhya which does not entertain

>the concept of 'God' but emphasises 'existence'.

>

>The head of the department asked:

>Then you are proposing a theory of 'existence' rather than

>theory of God?....... I said yes, in this Hindu philosophy 'existence'

>is elevated to the status of the ultimate and hence the question:

>"Does God exist?" becomes meaningless -as it would translate as

>does existence exist?

>

>Today's experience was very fruitful. I am beginning to enjoy

>this development. From now on my talks at Universities will

>focus on themes from Modern Sciences like:

>

>(1) What is Quantum Mechanics?

>(2) Consciousness in neuroscience

>(3) Theory of evolution

>

>Will keep the list posted on how this develops : )

>

>jay

>Vivekananda Centre London

>

>

>

>

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Vivekananda Centre" <vivekananda@b...> wrote:

> Today's experience was very fruitful. I am beginning to enjoy

> this development. From now on my talks at Universities will

> focus on themes from Modern Sciences like:

>

> (1) What is Quantum Mechanics?

> (2) Consciousness in neuroscience

> (3) Theory of evolution

>

> Will keep the list posted on how this develops : )

>

 

Namaste Shri Jay,

 

Nice to hear this. May I ask you to write more about the

details of the talk. If you dig into my postings you can

see that I am quite into this subject and have been into

it for many years.

 

I made a conscious decision of not pursuing a carrer in

Physics. Thus I gave myself the freedom to research into

unexplored domains without having the burden of convincing

the mainstream scientific community at every step. And the

journey till now has been very interesting. I have ABSOLUTELY

no doubt that the future of Science is its wedding with

Sprituality.

 

Will look forward to hearing more details. Moderators, do

let the interested members know if the discussion starts

drifting away from the goals of this list. At the same time

I would like to express that Vedanta community should become

more active in this area of Science and Sprituality.

 

Best regards

Shrinvas Gadkari

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Science and spirituality have always remained "wedded" in

knoledgeable minds. For instance, it was philosophers who postulated

the early atomic theory (anu siddhantha) in India. Weren't Geniuses

like Newton and Einstein spiritual deep down their hearts? I see that

there are many physicists and mathematicians amongst us! If there is

any mutual antagonism, it is between the noisy, convoluted adherents

of the two camps. The discerning majority are keeping quite in order

not to be misinterpreted.

 

About the suggestion that the vedanta community should be more active

in promoting understanding between science and spirituality, let us

first of all see what "advaitin" can do. May I request a scientist

among us, say Sadanandji or Sreenivasji, to first of all identify and

list the areas where the two camps share common ground and begin

discussions in right earnest on an issue by issue basis?

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

_______________

 

 

advaitin, "sgadkari2001" <sgadkari2001> wrote:

I have ABSOLUTELY

> no doubt that the future of Science is its wedding with

> Sprituality.

>

> At the same time

> I would like to express that Vedanta community should become

> more active in this area of Science and Sprituality.

[Guest guest]

Dear M,

The common ground between Science and Spirituality, it appears to me, is

just the enquiry, when it is fearless.

The object of enquiry is a physical phenomenon in Science and it is the Self

in Spirituality.

The Scientific enquiry creates a Model which is verifiable by others and by

other experiments and theories.

The Spiritual enquiry creates an Understanding of the Self, often times not

easily verifiable by others.

The above may be too simplistic for our complex minds to accept!

-- Vis

 

-

"madathilnair" <madathilnair

<advaitin>

Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:52 PM

Re: Direction of Science....work in London

 

> About the suggestion that the vedanta community should be more active

> in promoting understanding between science and spirituality, let us

> first of all see what "advaitin" can do. May I request a scientist

> among us, say Sadanandji or Sreenivasji, to first of all identify and

> list the areas where the two camps share common ground and begin

> discussions in right earnest on an issue by issue basis?

[Guest guest]

--- "R. Viswanathan" <drvis wrote:

> Dear M,

> The common ground between Science and Spirituality,

> it appears to me, is

> just the enquiry, when it is fearless.

 

Namste,

 

What a wonderful statement!!!!!!!!!!! The common

ground, substratum, is Brahman which is fearless. When

'both' enter an enquiry without fear there is, at

first, no need to name and hence no fear.

Aristotle is the father of Western science and he

established the way of working from the outer back to

an inner...ultimately an impossible task as you can

never escape the 'name and form' duality.

Philosophy begins from the substratum and works

outwards as you say below.

> The object of enquiry is a physical phenomenon in

> Science and it is the Self

> in Spirituality.

> The Scientific enquiry creates a Model which is

> verifiable by others and by

> other experiments and theories.

> The Spiritual enquiry creates an Understanding of

> the Self, often times not

> easily verifiable by others.

> The above may be too simplistic for our complex

> minds to accept!

 

Models, such as the psychic structure presented by the

Sankhyan tradition, have value even if we ignore their

initial atheistic and dualistic premise.

 

The moment of understanding can be verifiable by

others but only 'in the moment', in the exchange of a

look in sudden insight. Even if only two apparent

opponents in a meeting have such a moment then the

energies will flow and organisations will emerge.

'The Scientific and Medical Network' would be an

example: www.sciencenet.org.uk

 

Thanks for your great, clear posting which I hope that

I have not complicated

 

Ken Knight

> -- Vis

>

> -

> "madathilnair" <madathilnair

> <advaitin>

> Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:52 PM

> Re: Direction of Science....work

> in London

>

>

> > About the suggestion that the vedanta community

> should be more active

> > in promoting understanding between science and

> spirituality, let us

> > first of all see what "advaitin" can do. May I

> request a scientist

> > among us, say Sadanandji or Sreenivasji, to first

> of all identify and

> > list the areas where the two camps share common

> ground and begin

> > discussions in right earnest on an issue by issue

> basis?

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

Health - your guide to health and wellness

http://health.

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Reference posts by Prof. Krishnamurthy (13271), Shri Shrinivas

Gadkari (13272, 13279), Shri Gummuluru Murthy (13273), Shri Sadananda

(13275) and Shri Viswanathan (13281).

 

Shrinivasji's definition of spirituality as an inquiry into mind

appears to be a little off the mark. Spirituality is AdhyAtmikatA

and, hence, relates to the "soul" or "supreme spirit", whatever such

terms mean. Mind falls within the realm of "anAtmA" . The message

from Vivekananda Centre should, therefore, be considered from the

point of view of AdhyatmikatA. If we take it as relating to the

AnAtmA mind, we are most likely to get waylaid and end up in

psychology.

 

Further, Shrinivasji states "the goal (of AyurvedA) is to produce an

effect in the domain of the mind. In essence, the goal is to use

drugs to simulate a meditative state of mind". Does authority

support this statement? I am afraid not, although I have found

Homoeopaths, including the founder of that school of medicine, Dr.

Hanheman, claiming that they are treating the "spirit". They could

be right because their potentized medicines have been shown not to

contain the "mother substance" at all and still produce curative

effects. Reiki may be another contestant – I am not sure. And there

are umpteen numbers of expert practitioners who activate the "vital

energies" and many others who claim that Kundalini yoga can also

produce beneficial results. The latter may have a point in that some

recent misadventurers into Kundalini have run into grief and reported

suffering terrible physical agony. This probably shows that, if

properly used, Kundalini yoga may be useful in medicine.

 

Nevertheless, one cannot escape the conclusion that the field of

action in all the above is still "anAtmA", irrespective of whether

the claims relate to "mind" or the "spirit", and, therefore, these

schools of thought have nothing to do with the promotion of

AtmavidyA . If anything, they are only a fall-out or by-product of

man's spiritual quest. I would, in fact, like to call them

digressions, some of which have incidentally been beneficial to

mankind.

 

While Gummuluru Murthyji's point that none of the intellectual

sciences can approximate AtmavidhyA can be very easily conceded, we

must accept the fact that scientific enquiry can definitely bolster

the validity of AtmavidhyA. This exactly is what has been evidenced

with recent advancements in quantum mechanics, thermodynamics,

astronomy, astrophysics, embryology, studies on heredity etc.

Scientific uncertainties have compelled thinkers to pause and

postulate ideas which were unthinkable just fifty years ago. Thus,

we can now comfortably live with two or more acceptable and

practically effective scientific theories just to explain a single

phenomenon. As a result, the erstwhile well-defined boundaries of

scientific empiricism have coalesced and the process has taken

scientists inexorably to the realm of the spirit, whether they like

it or not.

 

It is this coming together of the scientific and the spiritual that,

I believe, is what the Vivekananda Centre has in mind. It is with

this understanding that I requested scientists among us to identify

areas of interest and initiate discussions. It would be really

interesting, exhilarating, fascinating and above all educative to

hear from experts how recent researches in their fields of study have

pointed to the spiritual road. As Murthyji has mentioned about

quantum mechanics, will someone please begin with that subject? The

moderators can help by suggesting a schedule for the discussions.

 

I know that all that we are going to talk will necessarily relate to

the AnatmA. That cannot be helped. Nevertheless, if what we say and

read can take us even a small fraction of an inch towards

appreciating the Truth, then that is an effort well taken.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

____________________

 

advaitin, "R. Viswanathan" <drvis@c...> wrote:

> Dear M,

> The common ground between Science and Spirituality, it appears to

me, is

> just the enquiry, when it is fearless.

> The object of enquiry is a physical phenomenon in Science and it is

the Self

> in Spirituality.

> The Scientific enquiry creates a Model which is verifiable by

others and by

> other experiments and theories.

> The Spiritual enquiry creates an Understanding of the Self, often

times not

> easily verifiable by others.

> The above may be too simplistic for our complex minds to accept!

> -- Vis

>