Guest guest Posted May 24, 2002 Report Share Posted May 24, 2002 Psychology and Metaphysics-14 I am in addition to LOVE-SELF also the Male-Self and hence always seeking a Woman-Self for my completion and become a Arthanari-Self. This is a reality about me and over which I have no control whatsoever . I am ALREADY configured as such by forces already there and which launch into phenomenality , to LIVE with a physical body with BREATHING as it essence. But along this I notice that I am indeed COMPLEX in many ways and NOT simply a unitary Atman with no structures in it , just simply a radiant Brahman as the Vedantins tirelessly proclaim but which has no substance in reality I am a Dual-Self in Many Ways. I am COMPLEX in many ways and because of which there is a TENSION within me, a tension that drives me into SEEKING various kinds of things. When I sit back and reflect upon my own complexity and FACE it without negation for fear of the metaphysical stress it creates, I notice that I am primarily BOTH physical and metaphysical. While the economic and socio-political, matters of the physical world are important to me, they are NOT completely saturating. Immersed in these realms of the PHYSICAL, and this how I see the Buddhist's notion of the Viyavakarika World, I feel that I am INCOMPLETE; there is a dimension beyond this that I also OUGHT to know. This OUGHT structure of my Deep Self is also already there -- it is as if my understanding is forever being stretched beyond what it always indicating that there is something beyond and that I ought to understand them as well. When I submit myself to these pressures within , then I notice that I raise the typical METAPHYSICAL questions like: What is MEANING of Life? Why am I born as such? Why is there sexuality as part of myself that forces me to associate with a woman? Why there are MORAL values always interfering with my FREEDOM to act in the way I like? Thus I realize that I am METAPHYSICAL as well, that in essence I am both Physical and Metaphysical. This is how I appropriate the vyavakarika-paramartika notions of the Buddhist taken over also by the Vedantins but WITHOUT the ontological reversal. Both are REAL too me though certainly the Metaphysical becomes more MEANINGFUL to me as a I mature in my understanding of my existence. There is a SHIFT in the values I attach to them-- the physical was very meaningful to me in the past but now the metaphysical. But in this shift I do not decry the physical and convert it into the purely fictional an illusory and what not as the Vedantins do. I do not also NEGATE it but only note that it is just real as any other but however something that do not anymore INTEREST me. What does not interest me also become UNIMPORTANT to me though it may be to others. I am the Twice Born With this shift in INTEREST, a fundamental change takes place within me. I am no more interested in matters that interest most people particularly the socio-political , the economic and the sexual. It is NOT that I avoid them or even negate them -- no but only that I am not any more very interested in them. The metaphysical world becomes that which preoccupies me and with this m shift in interest I become the TWICE BORN, initially born into the physical but now into the Metaphysical. So unlike the modern and false Brahmanahs who claim so solely by virtue of birth into a caste, I see that I am a true Brahmanah , a seeker of the understanding of the metaphysical realms, a free traveler into the realms that have been CONCEALED from me for a long time but indicated by the SYMBOLIC in my ordinary and largely physical life. In my ordinary socio-political life , there were INTRUSIONS of the metaphysical through the SYMBOLIC dimensions in my life. There were Myths Metaphors and Rituals that kept on indicating the Depths and always seeking to INDUCT me to the Metaphysical world only that I never plunged into it.. But that NO MORE is the case -- I am already drawn into it and the travel into these metaphysical realms become now my main preoccupation I want to go into the ROOTS of the philosophical matters, I want to UNDERSTAND the fundamental questions about LIFE about EXISTENCE and so forth. A new kind of restlessness grips me driving me into reading scriptures, practice yogas, listen to metaphysical discourses, seek out the meaning of the rituals and other symbolic elements and so forth It is as if the DOORS to a hidden world have been opened up inviting me to enter it with promises of metaphysical illuminations that would relieve me my new found ignorance about the fundamental questions of life as above. Thus I notice that as the TWICE Born I background my Physical-Self but foreground my Metaphysical-Self but always returning to the Physical-Self when the fires of metaphysical life become unbearable. The metaphysical life is like walking in the desert landscape where as I progress the values and insights I cherished get burnt up to ashes so that they are no more within me. I suffer many such processes of deprivation and cleansing. As I go through the FIRES of Yajna in which I burn I become exhausted. When it becomes unbearable I return to the Physical World particularly into the laps of beloved wife who COOLS me with her tantalizing looks and endearing words of LOVE. The FEELINGS of LOVE seem to be waters of Ganges that extinguishes the fires of metaphysical journeys. It is all puzzling but true as far as it goes. I am complex and this complexity is also pre-existent , despite being the Twice Born, the genuine Brahmanah, I am also just the ordinary man, just one in the crowd and who should never forget that. I should NOT pretend to be other than this for I notice that once I begin to pretend then certain doors to metaphysical realms become CLOSED to me and hence I am banished to circumbulate the realms that do not really illuminate . I continue still as the ignorant, the one who has not found the real meaning of existence. ======================================================= Dear friends! You are most welcome to visit the following websites I maintain: For World Saivism : http://ulagan.tripod.com/index.htm For Dravidian Philosophy: http://loga.tripod.com/tindex.htm For Agamic Psychology : http://ulagank.tripod.com/agapsyindex.htm For ArutkuRaL studies: http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/index.html For studies of Tamil Sacred scriptures in English: http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/tmcampus/tmc-open.html For SumeroTamil and related studies: http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/sumstudies/sumcampus.html ======================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 Dr. Loganathan, you are the most indefatigable and deliberate "spammer" that I have ever come across. What a tragedy that even after 14 posts on your "great researches", you have not still said what you want to say! I really admire the patience of the members of this list whose convictions have been so mercilessly and senselessly desecrated by you through your fourteen long posts. Why don't the moderators of this tolerant group block this reckless psychologist and his unbearable verbiage? This is beyond my understanding? Isn't there a limit to patience? Your statement that I have quoteed below befits you Dr. Loganathan! Madathil Nair ________________________ advaitin, "Dr.K.Loganathan" <subas@p...> wrote: > Psychology and Metaphysics-14 > > I continue still as the ignorant, the one who has not found the real meaning of existence. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 Dear Loganathanji Namaskar Mitra Vasudhaiva kutumbakam Maha Upanisad 6.71 Most likely all on this list have seen that you have experienced and immense intellectual and spiritual breakthrough and awakening and I respect that as we all seem to be on this same Path Without being asked I would like to offer something that might ease the pain and suffereing most all go through when the Kundalini Experience becomes a prime force in a persons life and we accelerate our positive evolution Have found that sometimes is best to deliberately slow the process of the rushing intellectual knowledge that actually can be seen as assaulting a persons life and then adopt deliberate action to intentionally stop pushing for answers through intellectual pursuit and questioning I remember something said about the Mistake of the Intellect that we have probably all experienced To calm the relative field life sometimes it is necessary to deliberately and calmly sink into the Silence of Daily Mantra Meditation that produces Transcendence and Samadhi on a daily basis and combine this practice with a Vedic Mantra Chanting Discipline that is chanted out loud each day The combination of these practices will calm the life on all levels and set in place the process to recieve answers from the Silence of Consciousness More calming takes place when the Holy Rudraksa is worn and Siva Linga and the Gauri Shankar Rudraksa and Sphatik Crystal Sri Yantra of MahaTripurSundari is kept at the worshipping place in the home and included in daily Puja and Worship. The Holy Yantras inscribed on copper and silver are extremely calming also By combining Silent Mantra Meditation with a daily Discipline of Absolute and Relative Field Mantra Chanting outloud the body, mind and spirit naturally reach a balance of assertive calmness at higher states of consciousness where answers flow to you as a natural part of the process of the Light of Life that is Dharma Artha Kama Moksa All answers come to you naturally from the Silence of Transcendence in Meditation Nivartadhvam Transcend Rik Veda 10.19.1 Questions and answers are one as they fold back upon one another again and again and are cognized naturally in the Silence merely from the intent and purpose of your need during Meditation We have never been born and we never die We are all together Immortal Aham Amritam Aham Brahmasmi Prakrtim svam avastabhya visrjami punah punah Takeing recourse to my own self referral nature I create again and again BhagavadGita 9.8 Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sacaracaram Under my presidentship my nature creates and administers the Universe BhagavadGita 9.10 Mitra I am wishing you and your family all the greatest Health, Happiness and Success in this world and in all the Spiritual Realms Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum Hrim Shrim Klim Parameshwari Swaha Aum Namo Bhagavate Rudraya Namaha Aum Gum Glaum Ganapatayei Namaha Aum Shrim Klim MahaLakshmiyei Swaha Aum Dum Durgayei Namaha Aum Eim Klim Saraswatyei Swaha Aum Krim Kalikayei Namaha Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum Pranams Siva Rudra Dharma Deva Arya Dr.K.Loganathan <subas akandabaratam <akandabaratam > Cc: agamicpsychology <agamicpsychology >; yogapsychology <yogapsychology >; IndianCivilization <IndianCivilization >; advaitin <advaitin>; waveS-Vedic <waveS-Vedic > Friday, May 24, 2002 9:12 PM Psychology and Metaphysics-14 >Psychology and Metaphysics-14 > > >I am in addition to LOVE-SELF also the Male-Self and hence always seeking a Woman-Self for my completion and become a Arthanari-Self. This is a reality about me and over which I have no control whatsoever . I am ALREADY configured as such by forces already there and which launch into phenomenality , to LIVE with a physical body with BREATHING as it essence. But along this I notice that I am indeed COMPLEX in many ways and NOT simply a unitary Atman with no structures in it , just simply a radiant Brahman as the Vedantins tirelessly proclaim but which has no substance in reality > >I am a Dual-Self in Many Ways. > >I am COMPLEX in many ways and because of which there is a TENSION within me, a tension that drives me into SEEKING various kinds of things. When I sit back and reflect upon my own complexity and FACE it without negation for fear of the metaphysical stress it creates, I notice that I am primarily BOTH physical and metaphysical. While the economic and socio-political, matters of the physical world are important to me, they are NOT completely saturating. Immersed in these realms of the PHYSICAL, and this how I see the Buddhist's notion of the Viyavakarika World, I feel that I am INCOMPLETE; there is a dimension beyond this that I >also OUGHT to know. This OUGHT structure of my Deep Self is also already there -- it is as if my understanding is forever being stretched beyond what it always indicating that there is something beyond and that I ought to understand them as well. When I submit myself to these pressures within , then I notice that I raise the typical METAPHYSICAL questions like: What is MEANING of Life? Why am I born as such? Why is there sexuality as part of myself that forces me to associate with a woman? Why there are MORAL values always interfering with my FREEDOM to act in the way I like? > >Thus I realize that I am METAPHYSICAL as well, that in essence I am both Physical and Metaphysical. This is how I appropriate the vyavakarika-paramartika notions of the Buddhist taken over also by the Vedantins but WITHOUT the ontological reversal. Both are REAL too me though certainly the Metaphysical becomes more MEANINGFUL to me as a I mature in my understanding of my existence. There is a SHIFT in the values I attach to them-- the physical was very meaningful to me in the past but now the metaphysical. But in this shift I do not decry the physical and convert it into the purely fictional an illusory and what not as the Vedantins do. I do not also NEGATE it but only note that it is just real as any other but however something >that do not anymore INTEREST me. > >What does not interest me also become UNIMPORTANT to me though it may be to others. > >I am the Twice Born > >With this shift in INTEREST, a fundamental change takes place within me. I am no more interested in matters that interest most people particularly the socio-political , the economic and the sexual. It is NOT that I avoid them or even negate them -- no but only that I am not any more very interested in them. The metaphysical world becomes that which preoccupies me and with this m shift in interest I become the TWICE BORN, initially born into the physical but now into the Metaphysical. So unlike the modern and false Brahmanahs who claim so solely by virtue of birth into a caste, I see that I am a true Brahmanah , a seeker of the understanding of the metaphysical realms, a free traveler into the realms that have been CONCEALED from me for a long time but indicated by the SYMBOLIC in my ordinary and largely physical life. > >In my ordinary socio-political life , there were INTRUSIONS of the metaphysical through the SYMBOLIC dimensions in my life. There were Myths Metaphors and Rituals that kept on indicating the Depths and always seeking to INDUCT me to the Metaphysical world only that I never plunged into it.. But that NO MORE is the case -- I am already drawn into it and the travel into these metaphysical realms become now my main preoccupation > >I want to go into the ROOTS of the philosophical matters, I want to UNDERSTAND the fundamental questions about LIFE about EXISTENCE and so forth. A new kind of restlessness grips me driving me into reading scriptures, practice yogas, listen to metaphysical discourses, seek out the meaning of the rituals and other symbolic elements and so forth It is as if the DOORS to a hidden world have been opened up inviting me to enter it with promises of metaphysical illuminations that would relieve me my new found ignorance about the fundamental questions of life as above. > >Thus I notice that as the TWICE Born I background my Physical-Self but foreground my Metaphysical-Self but always returning to the Physical-Self when the fires of metaphysical life become unbearable. The metaphysical life is like walking in the desert landscape where as I progress the values and insights I cherished get burnt up to ashes so that they are no more within me. I suffer many such processes of deprivation and cleansing. As I go through the FIRES of Yajna in which I burn I become exhausted. When it becomes unbearable I >return to the Physical World particularly into the laps of beloved wife who COOLS me with her tantalizing looks and endearing words of LOVE. The FEELINGS of LOVE seem to be waters of Ganges that extinguishes the fires of metaphysical journeys. > >It is all puzzling but true as far as it goes. I am complex and this complexity is also pre-existent , despite being the Twice Born, the genuine Brahmanah, I am also just the ordinary man, just one in the crowd and who should never forget that. > >I should NOT pretend to be other than this for I notice that once I begin to pretend then certain doors to metaphysical realms become CLOSED to me and hence I am banished to circumbulate the realms that do not really illuminate . I continue still as the ignorant, the one who has not found the real meaning of existence. > ======================================================= >Dear friends! You are most welcome to visit the following websites I maintain: > > For World Saivism : http://ulagan.tripod.com/index.htm > For Dravidian Philosophy: http://loga.tripod.com/tindex.htm > For Agamic Psychology : http://ulagank.tripod.com/agapsyindex.htm > For ArutkuRaL studies: http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/index.html > For studies of Tamil Sacred scriptures in > English: http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/tmcampus/tmc-open.html > For SumeroTamil and related studies: > http://arutkuraL.tripod.com/sumstudies/sumcampus.html > ======================================================= > > > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 Dear Sir, Thank-you very much for your kind concern. But I am a man very much at peace with myself and all because I have struggled through and feel quite certain that I have found the TRUTH. If I have given the wrong impression, I apologise for that. It is just a style of writing. Any way I must tell you that for me the contemplation of Siva Nadarajah, the Dancing Siva provides the insights and santhi that I need. Of course even then there are problems but I believe BEING ( Siva) will help me along to pass them over. I feel very COMFORTED at this thought of the LIVING presence of God There is more about the secrets of the JOY I enjoy and I intend to write all about these for those who dare to question themselves without setting into a rut and getting annoyed on reading contrary views. Yes I agree with you -- we are in the same path perhaps different only in details but which may be significant. Hinduism provides this FREEDOM and why not enjoy it to the maximum? Loga ShiningLotus wrote: > Dear Loganathanji > > Namaskar Mitra > > Vasudhaiva kutumbakam > > Maha Upanisad 6.71 > > Most likely all on this list have seen that you have experienced and immense > intellectual and spiritual breakthrough and awakening and I respect that as > we all seem to be on this same Path > > Without being asked I would like to offer something that might ease the pain > and suffereing most all go through when the Kundalini Experience becomes a > prime force in a persons life and we accelerate our positive evolution > > Have found that sometimes is best to deliberately slow the process of the > rushing intellectual knowledge that actually can be seen as assaulting a > persons life and then adopt deliberate action to intentionally stop pushing > for answers through intellectual pursuit and questioning > > I remember something said about the Mistake of the Intellect that we have > probably all experienced > > To calm the relative field life sometimes it is necessary to deliberately > and calmly sink into the Silence of Daily Mantra Meditation that produces > Transcendence and Samadhi on a daily basis and combine this practice with a > Vedic Mantra Chanting Discipline that is chanted out loud each day > > The combination of these practices will calm the life on all levels and set > in place the process to recieve answers from the Silence of Consciousness > > More calming takes place when the Holy Rudraksa is worn and Siva Linga and > the Gauri Shankar Rudraksa and Sphatik Crystal Sri Yantra of > MahaTripurSundari is kept at the worshipping place in the home and included > in daily Puja and Worship. The Holy Yantras inscribed on copper and silver > are extremely calming also > > By combining Silent Mantra Meditation with a daily Discipline of Absolute > and Relative Field Mantra Chanting outloud the body, mind and spirit > naturally reach a balance of assertive calmness at higher states of > consciousness where answers flow to you as a natural part of the process of > the Light of Life that is > > Dharma Artha Kama Moksa > > All answers come to you naturally from the Silence of Transcendence in > Meditation > > Nivartadhvam > > Transcend > > Rik Veda 10.19.1 > > Questions and answers are one as they fold back upon one another again and > again and are cognized naturally in the Silence merely from the intent and > purpose of your need during Meditation > > We have never been born and we never die > > We are all together Immortal Aham Amritam Aham Brahmasmi > > Prakrtim svam avastabhya visrjami punah punah > > Takeing recourse to my own self referral nature I create again and again > > BhagavadGita 9.8 > > Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sacaracaram > > Under my presidentship my nature creates and administers the Universe > > BhagavadGita 9.10 > > Mitra I am wishing you and your family all the greatest Health, Happiness > and Success in this world and in all the Spiritual Realms > > Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum > Hrim Shrim Klim Parameshwari Swaha > Aum Namo Bhagavate Rudraya Namaha > Aum Gum Glaum Ganapatayei Namaha > Aum Shrim Klim MahaLakshmiyei Swaha > Aum Dum Durgayei Namaha > Aum Eim Klim Saraswatyei Swaha > Aum Krim Kalikayei Namaha > Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum > > Pranams > > Siva Rudra Dharma Deva Arya > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 Dear Logji Namaskar Mitra Really did not get wrong impression and would like to try one more time Am understanding that Bliss Enlightenment and Liberation is your pursuit as it is for others Correct me if have missed something here please Specific point trying to make is that Accomplishment of Bliss Enlightenment and Liberation is a personal experience that is personal to each person and is not based on intellectual cerebralizeing combined with ongoing program of questioning and answering or telling others about the personal Truth one has found Am really happy you are happy person however there are a million people out there that have found the Truth and still the Truth is different for almost each person and again a personal issue depending upon whether you are being hunted by Armed Forces or sitting in a cave Meditateing in Hill County or liveing in Bombay trying to feed your children on US $25.00 per month Bliss Enlightenment Self Empowerment Fearless Life and Liberation while still in the physical body is based on Transcending in Silence of Meditation and is Silent This means not communicateing with others verbally or in print specific to the personal Truth a person has found and means instead to use this precious time to sit in Silent Meditation and accelerate Knowledge and Experiences Simply suggesting for the most accelerated path to all elements of the Truth that you simply consider sitting in Silence for a year to 5 years and not tell anyone about the Truth Worked for me and resulted in Immense Spiritual Breakthrough and am trying to pass this on so might work for you Mitra Hope this makes sense as the more time a person spends on the attention getting behaviour of constantly trying to make others understand the less time is spent where is needed most for evolution of the individual on the Spiritual Path. This type of compulsion is OK if that is they way you intend to lead your life however results sooner or later in a self made double binding situation where you cant let go and person loses way on intended path What do you think My Friend Thank You and Take Care Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Sivaya Nama Aum DharmaDev Arya Dr. K. Loganathan <subas advaitin <advaitin> Cc: akandabaratam <akandabaratam >; agamicpsychology <agamicpsychology >; yogapsychology <yogapsychology >; IndianCivilization <IndianCivilization >; waveS-Vedic <waveS-Vedic > Saturday, May 25, 2002 10:32 AM Re: Psychology and Metaphysics-14 > >Dear Sir, > >Thank-you very much for your kind concern. But I am a man very much at peace with myself and >all because I have struggled through and feel quite certain that I have found the TRUTH. If I >have given the wrong impression, I apologise for that. It is just a style of writing. Any way >I must tell you that for me the contemplation of Siva Nadarajah, the Dancing Siva provides the >insights and santhi that I need. Of course even then there are problems but I believe BEING ( >Siva) will help me along to pass them over. I feel very COMFORTED at this thought of the >LIVING presence of God > >There is more about the secrets of the JOY I enjoy and I intend to write all about these for >those who dare to question themselves without setting into a rut and getting annoyed on >reading contrary views. > >Yes I agree with you -- we are in the same path perhaps different only in details but which may >be significant. Hinduism provides this FREEDOM and why not enjoy it to the maximum? > >Loga > > > >ShiningLotus wrote: > >> Dear Loganathanji >> >> Namaskar Mitra >> >> Vasudhaiva kutumbakam >> >> Maha Upanisad 6.71 >> >> Most likely all on this list have seen that you have experienced and immense >> intellectual and spiritual breakthrough and awakening and I respect that as >> we all seem to be on this same Path >> >> Without being asked I would like to offer something that might ease the pain >> and suffereing most all go through when the Kundalini Experience becomes a >> prime force in a persons life and we accelerate our positive evolution >> >> Have found that sometimes is best to deliberately slow the process of the >> rushing intellectual knowledge that actually can be seen as assaulting a >> persons life and then adopt deliberate action to intentionally stop pushing >> for answers through intellectual pursuit and questioning >> >> I remember something said about the Mistake of the Intellect that we have >> probably all experienced >> >> To calm the relative field life sometimes it is necessary to deliberately >> and calmly sink into the Silence of Daily Mantra Meditation that produces >> Transcendence and Samadhi on a daily basis and combine this practice with a >> Vedic Mantra Chanting Discipline that is chanted out loud each day >> >> The combination of these practices will calm the life on all levels and set >> in place the process to recieve answers from the Silence of Consciousness >> >> More calming takes place when the Holy Rudraksa is worn and Siva Linga and >> the Gauri Shankar Rudraksa and Sphatik Crystal Sri Yantra of >> MahaTripurSundari is kept at the worshipping place in the home and included >> in daily Puja and Worship. The Holy Yantras inscribed on copper and silver >> are extremely calming also >> >> By combining Silent Mantra Meditation with a daily Discipline of Absolute >> and Relative Field Mantra Chanting outloud the body, mind and spirit >> naturally reach a balance of assertive calmness at higher states of >> consciousness where answers flow to you as a natural part of the process of >> the Light of Life that is >> >> Dharma Artha Kama Moksa >> >> All answers come to you naturally from the Silence of Transcendence in >> Meditation >> >> Nivartadhvam >> >> Transcend >> >> Rik Veda 10.19.1 >> >> Questions and answers are one as they fold back upon one another again and >> again and are cognized naturally in the Silence merely from the intent and >> purpose of your need during Meditation >> >> We have never been born and we never die >> >> We are all together Immortal Aham Amritam Aham Brahmasmi >> >> Prakrtim svam avastabhya visrjami punah punah >> >> Takeing recourse to my own self referral nature I create again and again >> >> BhagavadGita 9.8 >> >> Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sacaracaram >> >> Under my presidentship my nature creates and administers the Universe >> >> BhagavadGita 9.10 >> >> Mitra I am wishing you and your family all the greatest Health, Happiness >> and Success in this world and in all the Spiritual Realms >> >> Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum >> Hrim Shrim Klim Parameshwari Swaha >> Aum Namo Bhagavate Rudraya Namaha >> Aum Gum Glaum Ganapatayei Namaha >> Aum Shrim Klim MahaLakshmiyei Swaha >> Aum Dum Durgayei Namaha >> Aum Eim Klim Saraswatyei Swaha >> Aum Krim Kalikayei Namaha >> Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum >> >> Pranams >> >> Siva Rudra Dharma Deva Arya >> > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 Thank you Nairji for stating the obvious. Although there is a comic element in all this, I have to agree that enough is enough. Where are the moderators? Gentlemen, Nairji has requested relief! :-). Love to all Harsha madathilnair [madathilnair] Saturday, May 25, 2002 6:26 AM advaitin Re: Psychology and Metaphysics-14 Dr. Loganathan, you are the most indefatigable and deliberate "spammer" that I have ever come across. What a tragedy that even after 14 posts on your "great researches", you have not still said what you want to say! I really admire the patience of the members of this list whose convictions have been so mercilessly and senselessly desecrated by you through your fourteen long posts. Why don't the moderators of this tolerant group block this reckless psychologist and his unbearable verbiage? This is beyond my understanding? Isn't there a limit to patience? Your statement that I have quoteed below befits you Dr. Loganathan! Madathil Nair ________________________ advaitin, "Dr.K.Loganathan" <subas@p...> wrote: > Psychology and Metaphysics-14 > > I continue still as the ignorant, the one who has not found the real meaning of existence. > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 Dear Sir, I am not sure whether I have really understood what you are trying to communicate. But nevertheless I append my responses below yours along the line I understand. Feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood you in some places. Loga ShiningLotus wrote: > Dear Logji > > Namaskar Mitra > > Really did not get wrong impression and would like to try one more time > > Am understanding that Bliss Enlightenment and Liberation is your pursuit as > it is for others > > Correct me if have missed something here please Loga: Agreed , liberation is the goal of all religious/philosophical endeavours and in the Indian cirlces it has been understood within the notion of Moksa Mukti Nirvana Viidu peeRu(in Tamil) and so forth. Towards this one seeks enlightenment and which results in the experience of Bliss. But noting that that there are more than 30 different ways these notions have been understood and the possiblity of understanding it even in novel ways , it becomes necessary that we THINK about it all bringing into it one's own insights. The key term in the way I go about is is UNDERSTANDING and hence it is essentially hermeneutical. And the understanding that I seek is simply that of EXISTENCE , that which is already given to us in our ordinary living. Only when I understand the life that I live can I be enlightened and in the end hopely liberated. The liberation we seek is attaining a state of Being in which we go beyond the state of phenomenal recirculation, existential repetition, being born again and again, ther Samsarat taLai as they say. The very word 'liberation' means that at the moment we are bound and that we seek to FREE ourselves from this state of being bound. > > > Specific point trying to make is that Accomplishment of Bliss Enlightenment > and Liberation is a personal experience that is personal to each person and > is not based on intellectual cerebralizeing combined with ongoing program of > questioning and answering or telling others about the personal Truth one has found Loga: I am not sure what you mean by 'intelletual cereberalizing". I am sure you do not mean 'metaphysical thinking' for all the great rishies of India have been great thinkers and Hinduism is noted for the different ways metaphysical thinking has developed. But of course there are useful ways and misleading ways of going about it. When the thinking is in the direction of seeking to UNDERSTAND existence and not simply building up impressive metaphysical systems that are purely mental exercises of a kind, then of course such thinking is not only useless but also another trap into which we can fall. However metaphysical thinking that seeks to understand life and in that it is guided by the SEEKING OF TRUTH cannot be wrong. And this is not only indidivdual and personal but also collective. The TRUTH is not only a truth for me but also for all others. Within individualism lurks a universalism and this is borne out by the notion of TRUTH. And this demands acts communication for the articulation of TRUTH , for something OBJECTIVE has to ascertained by agreement at least by some. The TRUTH cannot be just a TRUTH for me and nobody else. This also brings in the scintific dimesions to such inquiries, scientific in the Hermeneutic sense. > > > > Am really happy you are happy person however there are a million people out > there that have found the Truth and still the Truth is different for almost > each person and again a personal issue depending upon whether you are being > hunted by Armed Forces or sitting in a cave Meditateing in Hill County or > liveing in Bombay trying to feed your children on US $25.00 per month. Loga I agree with you about this kind of reality. However as I have said above TRUTH cannot be different for different people. But is it is true that each person THINKS that he has found the truth and goes about happily without any qualms. Here we must note that we can be MISTAKEN, we can take the Acattu as Sattu. It is becase of this that interactional dialogue becomes necessary. I can LEARN that I was MISTAKEN in the understading of TRUTH when I encounter another person who DIFFERS from me and which would make me QUESTION my own presuppositions and the unquestioning way I maintained myself in my believes. This is a well engarained aspcet of Hindu life. We have to recall that after each Yajna there were parisads and that among the sciences well developed in India we have also Tarka Sastras. > > > Bliss Enlightenment Self Empowerment Fearless Life and Liberation while > still in the physical body is based on Transcending in Silence of Meditation > and is Silent > > This means not communicateing with others verbally or in print specific to > the personal Truth a person has found and means instead to use this precious > time to sit in Silent Meditation and accelerate Knowledge and Experiences > > Simply suggesting for the most accelerated path to all elements of the Truth > that you simply consider sitting in Silence for a year to 5 years and not > tell anyone about the Truth Loga Yes there is a merit in this and has been advocated even by the Tamil Siddhas. There is something enormously important about the practice of silence. But I believe that this should not put an end seeking to understand the basic metaphysical questions. Within bravely interrogating the essence of Life, there can be intervals of silence to allow the UNCONSCIOUS or the Depths work within us and let there emerge illuminations as if sun rise within. However the spontaneous and Absolute Silence will come to prevail naturally only when TEMPORALITY is transended and this can happen only when Absolute Understanding begins to prevail as our understanding. Thinking deeply and practicing silence perhaps should go in alternating rhythm till the tendency to question itslef dies off naturally. > > > Worked for me and resulted in Immense Spiritual Breakthrough and am trying > to pass this on so might work for you Mitra > > Hope this makes sense as the more time a person spends on the attention > getting behaviour of constantly trying to make others understand the less > time is spent where is needed most for evolution of the individual on the > Spiritual Path. This type of compulsion is OK if that is they way you intend > to lead your life however results sooner or later in a self made double > binding situation where you cant let go and person loses way on intended > path > > What do you think My Friend Loga; In genuine metaphysical exercise the 'Letting Go' becomes the essence. Unless we let go what binds us and gives us an identity we cannot become PURE and hence fit to understand Civanjanam ( or Brahmanjanam whatever) . And I agree with you here : it is this 'letting go' that allows us to EVOLVE and DEVELOP. This is also becoming liberated, becoming truly FREE. > > > Thank You and Take Care > > Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Sivaya Nama Aum > > DharmaDev Arya > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2002 Report Share Posted May 25, 2002 Dear Logaji Am understanding what you are saying and am thanking you for takeing the time to explain We are approaching the same source from different paths that sometimes seem to be the same Kind of like the art of weaveing Aum NamaSivaya Sivya Nama Aum Thanks and Take Care Mitra DharmaDev Arya Dr. K. Loganathan <subas advaitin <advaitin>; akandabaratam <akandabaratam >; yogapsychology <yogapsychology >; agamicpsychology <agamicpsychology > Saturday, May 25, 2002 7:40 PM Re: Psychology and Metaphysics-14 >Dear Sir, > >I am not sure whether I have really understood what you are trying to communicate. But >nevertheless I append my responses below yours along the line I understand. Feel free to >correct me if I have misunderstood you in some places. > >Loga > >ShiningLotus wrote: > >> Dear Logji >> >> Namaskar Mitra >> >> Really did not get wrong impression and would like to try one more time >> >> Am understanding that Bliss Enlightenment and Liberation is your pursuit as >> it is for others >> >> Correct me if have missed something here please > >Loga: > >Agreed , liberation is the goal of all religious/philosophical endeavours and in the Indian >cirlces it has been understood within the notion of Moksa Mukti Nirvana Viidu peeRu(in Tamil) >and so forth. Towards this one seeks enlightenment and which results in the experience of >Bliss. But noting that that there are more than 30 different ways these notions have been >understood and the possiblity of understanding it even in novel ways , it becomes necessary >that we THINK about it all bringing into it one's own insights. The key term in the way I go >about is is UNDERSTANDING and hence it is essentially hermeneutical. And the understanding >that I seek is simply that of EXISTENCE , that which is already given to us in our ordinary >living. Only when I understand the life that I live can I be enlightened and in the end hopely >liberated. The liberation we seek is attaining a state of Being in which we go beyond the state >of phenomenal recirculation, existential repetition, being born again and again, ther Samsarat >taLai as they say. The very word 'liberation' means that at the moment we are bound and that we >seek to FREE ourselves from this state of being bound. > >> >> >> Specific point trying to make is that Accomplishment of Bliss Enlightenment >> and Liberation is a personal experience that is personal to each person and >> is not based on intellectual cerebralizeing combined with ongoing program of >> questioning and answering or telling others about the personal Truth one has found > >Loga: > >I am not sure what you mean by 'intelletual cereberalizing". I am sure you do not mean >'metaphysical thinking' for all the great rishies of India have been great thinkers and >Hinduism is noted for the different ways metaphysical thinking has developed. But of course >there are useful ways and misleading ways of going about it. When the thinking is in the >direction of seeking to UNDERSTAND existence and not simply building up impressive metaphysical >systems that are purely mental exercises of a kind, then of course such thinking is not only >useless but also another trap into which we can fall. However metaphysical thinking that seeks >to understand life and in that it is guided by the SEEKING OF TRUTH cannot be wrong. And this >is not only indidivdual and personal but also collective. The TRUTH is not only a truth for me >but also for all others. Within individualism lurks a universalism and this is borne out by the >notion of TRUTH. And this demands acts communication for the articulation of TRUTH , for >something OBJECTIVE has to ascertained by agreement at least by some. The TRUTH cannot be just >a TRUTH for me and nobody else. This also brings in the scintific dimesions to such inquiries, >scientific in the Hermeneutic sense. > >> >> >> >> Am really happy you are happy person however there are a million people out >> there that have found the Truth and still the Truth is different for almost >> each person and again a personal issue depending upon whether you are being >> hunted by Armed Forces or sitting in a cave Meditateing in Hill County or >> liveing in Bombay trying to feed your children on US $25.00 per month. > >Loga > >I agree with you about this kind of reality. However as I have said above TRUTH cannot be >different for different people. But is it is true that each person THINKS that he has found >the truth and goes about happily without any qualms. Here we must note that we can be MISTAKEN, >we can take the Acattu as Sattu. It is becase of this that interactional dialogue becomes >necessary. I can LEARN that I was MISTAKEN in the understading of TRUTH when I encounter >another person who DIFFERS from me and which would make me QUESTION my own presuppositions and >the unquestioning way I maintained myself in my believes. This is a well engarained aspcet of >Hindu life. We have to recall that after each Yajna there were parisads and that among the >sciences well developed in India we have also Tarka Sastras. > >> >> >> Bliss Enlightenment Self Empowerment Fearless Life and Liberation while >> still in the physical body is based on Transcending in Silence of Meditation >> and is Silent >> >> This means not communicateing with others verbally or in print specific to >> the personal Truth a person has found and means instead to use this precious >> time to sit in Silent Meditation and accelerate Knowledge and Experiences >> >> Simply suggesting for the most accelerated path to all elements of the Truth >> that you simply consider sitting in Silence for a year to 5 years and not >> tell anyone about the Truth > >Loga > >Yes there is a merit in this and has been advocated even by the Tamil Siddhas. There is >something enormously important about the practice of silence. But I believe that this should >not put an end seeking to understand the basic metaphysical questions. Within bravely >interrogating the essence of Life, there can be intervals of silence to allow the UNCONSCIOUS >or the Depths work within us and let there emerge illuminations as if sun rise within. > >However the spontaneous and Absolute Silence will come to prevail naturally only when >TEMPORALITY is transended and this can happen only when Absolute Understanding begins to >prevail as our understanding. Thinking deeply and practicing silence perhaps should go in >alternating rhythm till the tendency to question itslef dies off naturally. > > >> >> >> Worked for me and resulted in Immense Spiritual Breakthrough and am trying >> to pass this on so might work for you Mitra >> >> Hope this makes sense as the more time a person spends on the attention >> getting behaviour of constantly trying to make others understand the less >> time is spent where is needed most for evolution of the individual on the >> Spiritual Path. This type of compulsion is OK if that is they way you intend >> to lead your life however results sooner or later in a self made double >> binding situation where you cant let go and person loses way on intended >> path >> >> What do you think My Friend > >Loga; > >In genuine metaphysical exercise the 'Letting Go' becomes the essence. Unless we let go what >binds us and gives us an identity we cannot become PURE and hence fit to understand Civanjanam >( or Brahmanjanam whatever) . And I agree with you here : it is this 'letting go' that allows >us to EVOLVE and DEVELOP. This is also becoming liberated, becoming truly FREE. > >> >> >> Thank You and Take Care >> >> Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Sivaya Nama Aum >> >> DharmaDev Arya >> > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2002 Report Share Posted May 26, 2002 Dear ShingLotusji, With all respect to you, may I say that, by engaging this gentleman in unending conversation, you are only granting him ill-deserved credibility and lengthening our suffering? The reasons for my point of view are: 1. From the very beginning, he has been against advaita. Every other sentence of his lengthy posts so far bears testimony to the fact that he has only concealed contempt for advaitic reasoning. 2. For the above reason, although I do not have any moderating rights, as a responsible member of this List, I would like to say that he has no business being amidst us senselessly criticizing the very thoughts that we cherish and value most. 3. If we permit him this liberty, there would be no reason for us to object if Osama Bin Laden or one of his ilk decides tomorrow to use this forum to propagate his own philosophy. Will you, Sir, then say that "we are approaching the same source from different paths that sometimes seem to be the same"? Afterall, that guy also is after some Universal Truth!? The fact that our gentleman swears by liberated Hinduism (Whatever that means!) does not make him any different. In fact, it is only a guise and he is only playing on it to justify his continuance in this List and to secure a parasitic perch. 4. Our moderators and at least a couple of other Members including me made it very clear to this gentleman that his views were unwarranted and unwelcome and that such thoughts be better expressed through his own List "Aghandabharatham" (Whatever that means!). There is, therefore, no reason for him to continue posting thoughts that are irrelevant to this List. In this light, his obstinate persistence is akin to deliberate spamming. His continual posts are like terrorist strikes across the LOC! Our tolerance and acquiescence are just taken for granted. 5. He says he has the Truth. Then, why not come out with it? Why hold it up the sleeves and flood our archives with contempt for advaita through interminable posts? Fourteen and odd lengthy posts that conveyed nothing so far, all of them befuddled with hell of a lot of contradictions, were not sufficient for that "Universal Truth" to emerge? He has now threatened to make us wiser with tonnes more of hermeneutic (Whatever that means!) verbiage before dealing the final "enlightening blow". Will we survive till then? Do we have to put up with all this – the labour pains preceding the promised enlightenment, only God knows when and what? My request to block him, therefore, stands. The list may also consider expunging his posts from the archives. Sorry if I hurt anybody. One has to call a spade a spade. Lokaha Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu. Pranams and best regards. Madathil Nair ____________ advaitin, "ShiningLotus" <shininglotus@c...> wrote: > Dear Logaji > > Am understanding what you are saying and am thanking you for takeing the > time to explain > > We are approaching the same source from different paths that sometimes seem > to be the same > > Kind of like the art of weaveing > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2002 Report Share Posted May 26, 2002 Dear Mitra and Group Members Apologies to all on Group You have me laughing here without stopping and is really late and time to go to bed in California Yes am in agreeance with all said and is only the way you are saying it in such a reserved and respectful way that is so funny in this situation May Lord Siva Please Please grant this really young Dr. person with some kind of sense to stop being agressively compulsive in public Is a fact that if any liveing being wants to learn more for survival and evolution they need to be silent most of the time and listen instead of constantly assaulting others with words I cannot even find in regular Dictionary. Have no idea what some of these words mean either so please do not feel alone Yes everyone is heading for Enlightment and Liberation only some people are all over the place in the meantime I was trying to be respectful to the Dr. and perform my compassionate service by suggesting him to please meditate in Silence for 1 to 5 years and he simply isnt listening no matter how many times I try the worthwhile discussions on Advaitin are being missed by me and probably by many others I gave up with last message and stopped trying to suggest anything as he is not really listening In addition it shows he has not learned to listen in a professional manner or he has suffered great tragedy and is looking for an anchor to stabilize his life Am wishing him the best however how many ways can you say please please simply stop for a moment and become a Silent Observer There is always forgiveness and at the same time I agree that it is probably the best thing for the future of the group discussions if the moderators could be approached and asked for some kind of relief to monitor and remove his messages or else there will not be the free exchange we have had in the past and time is precious He is not being harmed by this action. If there are any interested members they can also visit him on the many other group sites where he is posting same messages This lesson is difficult to learn however many of us have been through this at one time or another in our adolescense and have profited by it I am looking forward to more quality discussions as has been really silent of late Have been learning a great deal from everyone and I thank you all for this gift Am welcome to criticism of anything said here Thanks and Take Care Aum Namo Rudraya Namaha DharmaDev Arya madathilnair <madathilnair advaitin <advaitin> Saturday, May 25, 2002 11:00 PM Re: Psychology and Metaphysics-14 >Dear ShingLotusji, > >With all respect to you, may I say that, by engaging this gentleman >in unending conversation, you are only granting him ill-deserved >credibility and lengthening our suffering? The reasons for my point >of view are: > >1. From the very beginning, he has been against advaita. Every >other sentence of his lengthy posts so far bears testimony to the >fact that he has only concealed contempt for advaitic reasoning. > >2. For the above reason, although I do not have any moderating >rights, as a responsible member of this List, I would like to say >that he has no business being amidst us senselessly criticizing the >very thoughts that we cherish and value most. > >3. If we permit him this liberty, there would be no reason for us to >object if Osama Bin Laden or one of his ilk decides tomorrow to use >this forum to propagate his own philosophy. Will you, Sir, then say >that "we are approaching the same source from different paths that >sometimes seem to be the same"? Afterall, that guy also is after >some Universal Truth!? The fact that our gentleman swears by >liberated Hinduism (Whatever that means!) does not make him any >different. In fact, it is only a guise and he is only playing on it >to justify his continuance in this List and to secure a parasitic >perch. > >4. Our moderators and at least a couple of other Members including >me made it very clear to this gentleman that his views were >unwarranted and unwelcome and that such thoughts be better expressed >through his own List "Aghandabharatham" (Whatever that means!). >There is, therefore, no reason for him to continue posting thoughts >that are irrelevant to this List. In this light, his obstinate >persistence is akin to deliberate spamming. His continual posts are >like terrorist strikes across the LOC! Our tolerance and >acquiescence are just taken for granted. > >5. He says he has the Truth. Then, why not come out with it? Why >hold it up the sleeves and flood our archives with contempt for >advaita through interminable posts? Fourteen and odd lengthy posts >that conveyed nothing so far, all of them befuddled with hell of a >lot of contradictions, were not sufficient for that "Universal Truth" >to emerge? He has now threatened to make us wiser with tonnes more >of hermeneutic (Whatever that means!) verbiage before dealing the >final "enlightening blow". Will we survive till then? Do we have to >put up with all this – the labour pains preceding the promised >enlightenment, only God knows when and what? > >My request to block him, therefore, stands. The list may also >consider expunging his posts from the archives. > >Sorry if I hurt anybody. One has to call a spade a spade. > >Lokaha Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu. > >Pranams and best regards. > >Madathil Nair >____________ > >advaitin, "ShiningLotus" <shininglotus@c...> wrote: >> Dear Logaji >> >> Am understanding what you are saying and am thanking you for >takeing the >> time to explain >> >> We are approaching the same source from different paths that >sometimes seem >> to be the same >> >> Kind of like the art of weaveing >> >> > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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