Guest guest Posted May 28, 2002 Report Share Posted May 28, 2002 Namaste Rajanji This is real good. Thanks for sharing. May I know the title of the book from which the excerpt was extracted. Thanks. Kathi > > pbvrajan [sMTP:pbvrajan] > Monday, May 27, 2002 10:10 PM > advaitin > Draft of " Primer for Beginners" in Advaita > > Hari Om, > > > I was myself, so troubled with my earlier posting on the "Origin of the > word Advaitin". I felt I had not done "due diligence" on this subject. I > now wish to offer this draft as a summary for beginners like me who join > the list to be finalized by moderators and sent when they join the list. > This is only a suggestion - Pranams - P.B.V.Rajan > > > NB: By the way "Advaitin" means who is a student of this philosophy of > "Advaita". > Acknowledgements: Summary by Swami Harshananda, Ramakrishna Math. > ADVAITA VEDANTA > > The systematization of Advaita as a doctrine was by first by Gaudapada and > by his most famous disciple Adi Sankara (788-820 AD). There are also > subsequent treatises on the subject. > > Advaita means non-dual (One without a second). It recognizes Brahman (the > Absolute) as the only reality and - this is equally important - denies > permanent reality to the world as also to individual souls or any other > living beings. The entire concept is based on "Brahma satyam- Brahman > alone is truth) which incidentally are also mentioned Upanishads e.g. > Chandogya Upanishad (but without elaboration or justification - which Adi > Sankara did in his Bashyas). Theoretically the Upanishads statements > including the " Mahavakyas" could also be interpreted differently. The > differences in interpretation are not the "Supremacy " of Brahman but that > "He alone exists really" as per Adi Sankara, where as, others claim > different levels of reality for human souls (Jiva) and matter. The very > nature of the conclusion is such that it cannot be proven by a third > party. If it can be proven, then the theory is void. So essentially it is > a "Take it or leave it theory". This however is not to negate ! > the theory, as it could be the ultimate in human thought and could well be > right. By the way, this is a specialization on the basic "Hindu/ Vedic" > thought that all humans have a permanent "Atman" -soul which is immortal > and supreme objective for all humans is reunion of this jiva / individual > soul with Brahman (Super soul/ Godhood). Incidentally the words "Atman" > and "Brahman" are used interchangeably in various Upanishads, which are by > themselves a summarization of Vedas, the "original revealed transcripts". > (the word "transcripts" is used as they were revealed as "sound" and not > as written text or visuals) > > Adi Sankara built his line of arguments based on the following key steps: > > 1) To start with, humans see and experience a multitude of living > beings and non-living forms of matter. Unless all this is proved as > "unreality" the main theory cannot be logical. > > 2) So Adi Sankara formulates" Anirvachaniya Khyati" - theory of > erroneous > Cognition, which essential argues that whatever we observe and feel is > unreal, totally contrary to usual logic. The stock example is "Rope being > mistaken as Snake". > > 3) The process of this superimposition/ wrong perception is "Adhyasa" > > 4) The result of this process is mithyajnana (false knowledge) > > 5) The next stage of reasoning is whether it is the rope or snake, in > both cases it is neither sat" (real) or "asat" (unreal). It is a third > category - "sad asad vilakshana (different from both real and unreal). > Then, what about the observation itself - either as rope or as snake, it > is termed as "anirvachanya" - cannot be described. > > 6) The reason for this phenomenon of erroneous perception is ajnana/ > avidya (ignorance) which is as a result of 2 powers a) avaranasakti- the > veiling power b) viksepa sakti- (transforming power). These 2 powers do > not make the object disappear from view but twist the perception. Hence > the avidya is called as bhavarupa (existent). The 2 forces are part of > "Maya" phenomenon which exists at the cosmic level. > > 7) 3 Different levels of realities are then defined by Adi Sankara: > > > a) Pratibhasika Satya (apparent truth/ illusory appearance) > perception of snake instead of rope > b) Vyvaharika Satya (Practical truth)- rope as rope > c) Paramrthika Satya (the only and Highest truth)- which is both > Brahman/ atman are just one and it is THE only one real entity. It is > nirguna (without attributes) and nirakara (without forms) and thus can > only be concluded negatively as "neti,neti" (not this), especially the > earlier 2 versions. > > 8) Brahman when perceived with Maya is "Saguna Brahman" (Brahman with > attributes), which is cause for all creation as we know it. However it is > only a "vivarta" (illusory) due to adhyasa as mentioned earlier. These > are termed by Adi Sankara as "tatashtalakshana" (accidental/ casual > characteristics) > > 9) For the Real and only One Brahman the "svarupalakshana" (essential > characteristics) is "sat-chit-anada" (Reality-consciousness-bliss) > > 10) The individual atman when in bondage or ignorance, is called as > "jiva" which in turn has 5 "kosas" (sheaths) and 3 "sariras" (bodies) . > Since its essential nature is "sat-chit-anada" Adi sankara concludes that > both are same and not different. > > 11) Now how to remove this adhyasa (superimposition)? The process is by > "apavada" or reversing the superimposition. This can be done by "sadhana" > (spiritual practice) which has 3 main components- Sravana (hearing the > truth), Manana (reflecting upon these truths- probably self justification, > not blind acceptance) and finally nididhyasana (contemplation- probably > internalization). If this process is complete when Jiva is still > associated with the body it is "Jivanmukti" (Liberation while still > alive). It can happen after death also as "videhamukti"(liberation from > future bodies). However the key point is that these are not new states but > "recognizing the existing original state". Here in lies, the true beauty > of the theory for if it were some new state, the whole theory would be > illogical. > > 12) One of the major discussions after Adi Sankara in Advaitin theory is > "Where is the avidya" As per one school (Suresvara & padmapada) it is > in Brhaman who is both the "asarya" (locus) as also the "visaya" (object) > of "avidya" (ignorance). The opposite school is by Vacaspati Misran who > argues that since is Brahman is pure consciousness, it is in individual > Jiva. These discussions are still inconclusive. > Conclusion of this > e-mail > Pranams Once again- P.B.V.Rajan > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at > http://email.indiatimes.com > Buy Music, Video, CD-ROM, Audio-Books and Music Accessories from > http://www.planetm.co.in > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Dear Shri. PBV Rajan, Namaskaram, As a beginner, I must thank you for the lucid but simple primer, which explains basic advaitic concepts. Thanks once again. Madhavan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Dear Rajanji, Yours is a great suggestion. Yes. We should have a draft for beginners. No doubt, the summary by Swami Harshanandaji is really impresive and illuminative. However, from the point of view of my own personal experience, I would not recommend it for a beginner, because I feel that, had I read it in my early days of spiritual struggle (This does not mean that the struggle is yet over!), I would have missed the whole point. In my early days in College, I had come across a series of books like "Physics Made Easy", "Calculus Made Easy", "ABC Of Relativity" etc., written in so very simple and lucidly flowing manner that any Tom, Dick and Harry could immediately appreciate the essence of the subjects dealt with. The need of the hour with Vedanta is such a simple treatise - a "Vedanta Made Easy" or, to be more chauvinistic, "Advaita Made Easy". I don't know if any such works are already available. My personal opinion is that such a work should necessarily tackle the issue of advaita from the asthi, bhaathi, priyam angle, which connotes the "I am or I exist", "I know" and "I am dear to myself or I am happiness" triad and conclude that Brahman is sat-chit- aanandah. This is the fundamental issue. "Asthi, bhaathi, priyam" deals with our daily life and enables a commonsensical understanding of advaita. Starting elsewhere is like trying to contain an unwieldly balloon in ones palm. Recourse to terminology / issues such as avidya with bhaavaroopa, maaya, sat, asat, kosas (sheaths), the locus of adhyaasa, etc. should be only to the barest minimum extent required to facilitate the understanding of the above triad. Differing view-points on such topics can be included in a glossary with possibly message references to relevant discussions in our archives, which are already rich particularly with regard to major contentious issues. Now, who will undertake this task? Or, who will bell the cat? Who else - other than our moderators. A big MIAVOO, dear moderators. Pranams and best regards to all. Madathil Nair _______ advaitin, "pbvrajan" <pbvrajan@i...> wrote: > Hari Om, > > > I was myself, so troubled with my earlier posting on the "Origin of the word Advaitin". I felt I had not done "due diligence" on this subject. I now wish to offer this draft as a summary for beginners like me who join the list to be finalized by moderators and sent when they join the list. This is only a suggestion - Pranams - P.B.V.Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Om Thanks to Shri Rajanji and Shri Nairji for the posts on "Primer for Beginners". I am a new member - less than 2 weeks old and this introduction definitely helped. When I say I am new, let me caution you that I have been reading about advaita for some time and then became a member and then read these posts. So the individual's understanding and prior knowledge matters, when you read and assimilate something I have a further question. Just as Shri Nairji said, do we *also* need a "ready reference list of terms" for starters ? If yes, following are the terms I would suggest. Can someone explain these terms to a beginner like me or refer me to URLs that have an explanation The terms are -------------------- adhyaasa, ajAti vAda asat, asthi, bhaathi, priyam angle bhaavaroopa, bhAmatI school of thought kosas (sheaths), maaya, Nirvikalpa Samadhi pAramArthika prakRti sAm.khya Samadhi sat, sat-chit- aanandah sRshTi-dRshTi vAda taTastha-lakshaNa turIya vyavahAra Best Regards On 30 May 2002 at 6:54, madathilnair wrote: > Dear Rajanji, > > Yours is a great suggestion. Yes. We should have a draft for > beginners. > > No doubt, the summary by Swami Harshanandaji is really impresive and > illuminative. However, from the point of view of my own personal > experience, I would not recommend it for a beginner, because I feel > that, had I read it in my early days of spiritual struggle (This does > not mean that the struggle is yet over!), I would have missed the > whole point. > > In my early days in College, I had come across a series of books > like "Physics Made Easy", "Calculus Made Easy", "ABC Of Relativity" > etc., written in so very simple and lucidly flowing manner that any > Tom, Dick and Harry could immediately appreciate the essence of the > subjects dealt with. The need of the hour with Vedanta is such a > simple treatise - a "Vedanta Made Easy" or, to be more > chauvinistic, "Advaita Made Easy". I don't know if any such works are > already available. > .... -- bharath bharath -- http://fastmail.fm - Click it, you'll feel better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Dear Bharath, I notice that your mail has not appeared on Advaitin message board. Perhaps you didn't address it properly. I am, therefore, sending a cc to them to ensure continuity of archives. You have asked for the meaning of a number of words which I am afraid cannot be answered without covering the entire gamut of vedanta. I don't think I am competent to help you in the matter. Let us hope that the draft we are talking about will have a glossary of terms with their crisp definitions. The central theme of advaita, as I understand, is asthi, bhaathi, priyam which is nothing other than sat, chit and aananda. Discussion on "asthi" will lead us to the self-evident conclusion that "I exist and, therefore, everything else exists". "Bhaathi" deals with knowing, all knowledge transactions, at the end of which we conclude that "I know and, therefore, all that I know (experience) is". Discussion on "Priyam" tells us that "I am dearest to me, I am happiness, I don't have to look outside for happiness and I am full in all respects". Thus, I am Existence (Immortality), Knowledge, and Fullness (Sat-Chit-Ananda). Since all three (Sat-Chit-Ananda) are Me, then they cannot be different from one another. They are the same. Sat-Chit-Ananda is Brahman and I am Brahman. Thus, we conclude that Brahman Is, therefore all the worlds are. My suggestion was that the proposed draft be built based on the above central idea. I would also request you to read our archives from the very beginning. Many of the terms like sat, asat, adhyaasa have been discussed there thread-bare. Best regards. Madathil Nair ______________________ --- bharath <bharath wrote: > Om > > Thanks to Shri Rajanji and Shri Nairji for the posts > on "Primer for > Beginners". I am a new member - less than 2 weeks > old and this > introduction definitely helped. > > When I say I am new, let me caution you that I have > been reading about > advaita for some time and then became a member and > then read these > posts. > > So the individual's understanding and prior > knowledge matters, when you > read and assimilate something > > I have a further question. > > Just as Shri Nairji said, do we *also* need a "ready > reference list of > terms" for starters ? > > If yes, following are the terms I would suggest. > > Can someone explain these terms to a beginner like > me or refer me to > URLs that have an explanation > > > The terms are > -------------------- > > adhyaasa, > > ajAti vAda > > asat, > > asthi, bhaathi, priyam angle > > bhaavaroopa, > > bhAmatI school of thought > > kosas (sheaths), > > maaya, > > Nirvikalpa Samadhi > > pAramArthika > > prakRti > > sAm.khya > > Samadhi > > sat, > > sat-chit- aanandah > > sRshTi-dRshTi vAda > > taTastha-lakshaNa > > turIya > > vyavahAra > > > > Best Regards > > > - bharath > bharath - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Namaste all, I shall be happy to give a helping hand in this project. It would be preferable to use the modern idiom of 'FAQs' [Frequently Asked Questions] in place of a Primer, as even a Primer can be written at different levels of complexity! If a list of such questions is collected and posted, it will help to organise the answers from different sources. Regards, Sunder advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote: > Dear Rajanji, > > Yours is a great suggestion. Yes. We should have a draft for > beginners. The need of the hour with Vedanta is such a > simple treatise - a "Vedanta Made Easy" or, to be more > chauvinistic, "Advaita Made Easy". I don't know if any such works are > already available. > >> Now, who will undertake this task? Or, who will bell the cat? Who > else - other than our moderators. A big MIAVOO, dear moderators. > > Pranams and best regards to all. > > Madathil Nair > _______ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Namaste all, Sunderji has a point here. We can go in for a FAQ format to keep up with the times. However, we have to ensure that the questions are so planned and arranged that they are in a logical progresssion providing an effective synopsis of what advaita is all about. The issue to start with can still be asthi, bhaathi, priyam, as I suggested earlier. The FAQ should be capable of imparting an effective vision to the beginner, so that he has a firm platform to stand on and challenge the List with further incisive and logical enquiries. Pranams to all. Madathil Nair advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote: > Namaste all, > > I shall be happy to give a helping hand in this project. It > would be preferable to use the modern idiom of 'FAQs' [Frequently > Asked Questions] in place of a Primer, as even a Primer can be > written at different levels of complexity! > > If a list of such questions is collected and posted, it will > help to organise the answers from different sources. > > Regards, > > Sunder > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 FELLOW-ADVAITINS, Advaita is like Mathematics. It has to be learnt level by level, each level being based on the previous ones. Every level has most of the preceding levels as a prerequisite. As soon as a student says that he wants to learn advaita if he is taught ‘aham brahma asmi’ or ‘tat tvam asi’ he will either not understand it or he will mis-understand it. Too early an introduction of the deeper advaita concepts in the spiritual rise of the student, can be only counter-productive. Please note that I am not denying the fact that, due to the effects of karmic evolution, one may be very much in readiness to receive this message of aham brahma asmi or tat tvam asi just as duck to water. These are the rare meritorious souls who are already ripe in their spiritual evolution and need only the right guru to whisper into their ears these mahavakyas and they become enlightened. I am talking of the vast majority of many of us who have to stumble up the spiritual ladder. What I write below is for this average seeker. So it will be counter-productive to tell the new student all the jargon of advaita right in the beginning. His curiosity has to be awakened for him to ask the right questions. In my little experience I have found that those who want to study advaita without having a trait of bhakti towards the Supreme in them, usually fail to get into grips with the real advaitic teaching. Bhakti is the first prerequisite. This bhakti has to ripen in its own way and by God’s grace. By giving him a whole glossary of technical words, only his intellect is being fed whereas his spiritual intuition is not nurtured. Questions and answers are alright after we have been exposed to some basics. But these basics have to come in graded lessons. The graded lessons may follow some such sequence as below. Please note that this is not the only sequence that might work. There could be other sequences of lessons. Mine is only one of the many possible suggestions. Lesson 1. Morality, fair play, ethics and justice are the basis of karma yoga. Faith, conviction and an attitude of surrender are the basis of bhakti yoga. But Morality is not the end of religion. Nor is ecstatic yearning for the grace of God an end in itself. So long as a distance persists between the imperfect individual we are and the perfect Absolute that is, we have not reached the goal. Advaita philosophy has the objective of narrowing down this distance to downright zero. Lesson 2. In the level of bhakti yoga we experience a fragment of the infinite grandeur of God. The level of jnana yoga wants to take you to the realization of the infiniteness of that grandeur. It tells you that in addition to His transcendence He is immanent in us as the Soul of our souls. Lesson 3. Atman. Abstraction of Immanence. Lesson 4. Brahman. Abstraction of Transcendence. Lesson 5. Upanishad says that these two are the same Lesson 6. Then why is it we don’t realise it? Our own Ignorance. But don’t start here about what the locus of this Ignorance is and all that sort of stuff. Of course you have to answer the natural question: Where did I get my original Ignorance? The answer at this stage is: One is not ready to understand the answer at this stage. Remember, in Hinduism and Hindu philosophy, the same question has different answers at different levels of evolution. The answers need not be wrong but they progressively become deeper and deeper. Lesson 7. Description of the Absolute with all its superlatives as well as all the negations. It exists as Absolute Consciousness. Lesson 8. Attributeless non-dualistic Absolute. Lesson 9. Different Orders of Reality. Lesson 10. The Logic of Pure Contentless Consciousness. Lesson 11. It is not a complete blank. Comparison with the state of deep sleep. The fourth state beyond deep sleep. Lesson 12. How do we worship the attributeless, formless brahman? The concept of saguna brahman. Role of bhakti. Lesson 13. The jIva. The five sheaths. Lesson 14. mAyA. Dream. The various standard analogies. Lesson 15. Distinctness from Being and non-being. Lesson 16. The mahA-vAkyas Lesson 17. Difference versus non-difference, between God, Soul and Universe. Three types of difference: svagata, sajAtIya and vijAtIya. What do the three philosophies advaita, viSishTAdvaita and dvaita accept and reject? Lesson 18. jIvan-mukti concept. If the above sequence of 18 lessons is written up with not more than a page for each topic, that is, material that can be expounded for the average listener in about 20 to 30 minutes, then the whole sequence would form an advaita primer. But some one has to write it in such a way that the jargon gets postponed to the later lessons. It is the jargon (in the beginning) and what appears to be a dogmatic approach (all the time), that repel the student. After each lesson there could be questions and answers but very often the questions that are raised would have their own answers as the lessons advance. If this fact is taken into consideration, there will be very few questions to answer midway. Of course at the end of the eighteen lessons, he will perhaps be ready to participate knowledgeably in the discussions of the advaitin group! PraNAms to all advaitins, profvk ===== Prof. V. Krishnamurthy My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/ You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site. - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Namaste all, With great respect to Prof. Krishnamurthyji, his erudition, wisdom and experience, kindly permit me to differ. If we believe that an aspirant reaches a Guru due to Grace, then we should necessarily assume that he reaches the portals of "Advaitin" also due to some Grace. Otherwise, he should be visiting a Bollywood site or, at worst, a porno site. If he knocks at the door of "Advaitin", it is the duty of all of us here to tell him something to satisfy his curiosity. Then what happens to him is his destiny decided by the Lord. The Lord has a knack of doing what he wants. Why bother about His inscrutable ways? What we tell the aspirant need not be so elaborate as to run into 18 lessons. We can tell him a gyst of what we know. That, in effect, is the primer we have in mind based on the idea originally seeded by Shri Rajanji. We will tell him what we know in the best way possible with the best of intentions. If our efforts are counter- productive, well, it is then the will of the Lord. We have no onus on us to grant anybody jeevanmukthi or self-realization. That will happen depending on the karma of the aspirant concerned. I hope Prof. Krishnamoorthyji will not differ with my point of view. Pranams. Madathil Nair ________________ advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote: > FELLOW-ADVAITINS, > Advaita is like Mathematics. It has to be learnt level by level, each > level being based on the previous ones. Every level has most of the > preceding levels as a prerequisite. As soon as a student says that > he wants to learn advaita if he is taught `aham brahma asmi' or `tat > tvam asi' he will either not understand it or he will mis-understand > it. Too early an introduction of the deeper advaita concepts in the > spiritual rise of the student, can be only counter-productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 advaitin Shri Nairji wrote:With great respect to Prof. Krishnamurthyji, his erudition, wisdom and experience, kindly permit me to differ...If anyone knocks at the door of "Advaitin", it is the duty of all of us here to tell him something to satisfy his curiosity. Hari Om, The list has some members who are really advanced in their research and comprehension of advaita as a way of life. Most of the moderators presumably belong to this category. I have personally met Dr Sadananda and Shri Madhava and know they are experts. However there are also many new entrants to this "e-school" of advaita. I was myself one such person and I say with all due humility that it has helped me a lot. It would have been better if there were some introductory notes on some subjects which are free of jargon. Hence the idea of primer. Shri Nair in one of his earlier mails also mentioned that we must start with vedanta. On thinking about the subject, I think we may start with Religion>Hinduism>Vedanta> Advaita in that order, especially for those who are just getting initiated into the spiritual matters. I have in mind people, like I was 3 years back, as well as my own children who whenever I start this subject, say" Appa, it is so boring". At the same time, I do not think it is good to force them like the Islamic style but not making a different attempt to interest them is also not right in my opinion.So these simplified notes are more of interest creating primers and not really route maps or guides to correct comprehension. So first I will post notes with each not exceeding 500 words- to keep it brief. When I finish that I will start working on the suggestion of Dr Krishnamurthyji and develop simple notes on the 18 steps. It will help me to learn the subject better. Ofcourse if the effort is found wanting in quality, the feedback from the list would enable me to decide on whether I should try to improve it or stop with the hope that somebody can do it better. Pranams P.B.V.Rajan Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com Buy Music, Video, CD-ROM, Audio-Books and Music Accessories from http://www.planetm.co.in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 Namaste, Our very own Frank-ji [Maiello] has an FAQ page at URL: http://ddi.digital.net/~egodust/fmpagez2.html One can also explore the questions from these scriptures: Prashna Upanishad - 6 questions BhagavadGita - Arjuna's 15 questions Prashnottara-Ratna-Malika - Shankara - 60+ Q. !! Regards, Sunder advaitin, "pbvrajan" <pbvrajan@i...> wrote:> Hari Om, > > > The list has some members who are really advanced in their research and comprehension of advaita as a way of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 advaitin Shri Madathil Nair wrote: Yes. We should have a draft for beginners....., had I read it in my early days of spiritual struggle , I would have missed the whole point...., written in so very simple and lucidly flowing manner that any Tom, Dick and Harry could immediately appreciate the essence of the subjects dealt with. The need of the hour with Vedanta is such a simple treatise - a "Vedanta Made Easy" or, to be more chauvinistic, "Advaita Made Easy". Hari Om. From my personal experience I tend to agree with Shri Nair. Introduction to any subject is an important step. If it is found to be confusing or too big for comprehension one loses interest. In these days when "lobbying" is an accepted practice even at the level of the President of USA, there is nothing wrong as I see it, if a group of Advaitin enthusiasts lobby for it. Also the "Cheer Leaders" are rarely the best players, so I have no hesitation in being an advocate of a theory although I myself may not be an expert. There is just one big difference, which I recognize right in the beginning. Advaita is not just one more subject, but is probably the ultimate in human thought process. It is intensly introspective, if not deeply intellectual. So we cannot compare Apples to Oranges or Lemons. To get a level playing field, I propose to summarize in 4 parts Religion> Hinduism> Vedanta>Advaita in that order so that we are talking within the same frame work. Each of these postings will not exceed 500 words, a self imposed condition. I feel that I should take efforts, to express in the least possible space, to give less trouble to the readers. So here is the first part on Religion in 485 words. RELIGION SIMPLIFIED 1) Religion is widely acknowledged as an aspect of Human civilization. Humans in different regions, speaking different languages, in different age groups, with varying material resources, living in different periods, and in most cultures have developed religion. This has often evolved indigenously and also accepting those from other regions. 2) In essence, the main function of the religion is to explain many phenomena not comprehensible to most humans. One of them is a human spiritual feeling that is quite distinct from, other emotions such as happiness or sorrow or anger etc or just curiosity about things. Spirituality is a distinct human need, some times the most powerful. Defining this human need and satisfying it with solutions, has given birth to the concept and practice of “Religion”. 3) The prominent characteristics of most religions are as follows: a) It nominates a specific Super-human power as the “God” who has all most total control, over humans including the creation and termination of life and all incidents in between. The power is unseen but can be felt. b) It defines relationship between God(s) and humans, both ways. It also defines the relationships between both God(s) and man to non-human life, non-life matter and natural phenomena. c) Up to this point, the relationships are on individual basis with respect to God(s). This may be classified as “individual spiritual quest”. The strength of this feeling varies in different people and also within the same person at different times of life. It is not a constant as the physical needs like hunger or requirements of sleep which are more easily “quantifiable” and predictable. Different practices are suggested to close the gap between God & man. This is an important threshold. d) Most of the religions then go on to codify the relationship between different humans in the context of their common acceptance of one set of God(s). This includes rituals related to birth, marriage, death and transfer of property. It also includes punishments for acts viewed as crimes in a religious context. There is also some “reward and punishment”‘ system after end of this life in most religions. 4) At this stage, it becomes a defacto social management tool, different from an individual spiritual quest, although it is shown to be overlapping. The codification is then documented as a “text” which becomes a manual. The other main features are: Mode of Prayers, Visual Symbols, Clergy, Places of congregation, celebrations and membership qualifications. 5) A critical examination of the human history of last 5,000 years shows that while the concept of “God” as something more powerful than humans is universal, the definition and description vary widely. There is no unanimity of opinion when it comes to “God” and Religion. 6) The religions with more than 500 million followers each are: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as of now in year 2002. More than one billion people in China do not formally have a religion under the communist regime. Pranams. P.B.V.Rajan Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com Buy Music, Video, CD-ROM, Audio-Books and Music Accessories from http://www.planetm.co.in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 In a message dated 5/31/2002 11:09:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pbvrajan writes: > . . .I think we may start with Religion>Hinduism>Vedanta> Advaita > in that order, especially for those who are just getting initiated into the > spiritual matters. With greatest respect and kindness, may I please remark on this ordered outline for a "Primer . . .". Immediately, I asked myself, "Who is the intended audience for this Primer?" If it is to be the greater Hindu environment, then perhaps this is good; I know not. If the audience is to be the world at large, then I would think that the above 'Hinduism' would rather be a subset of 'Religion'. Understandably, perhaps it is that the Hindu culture provides a more immediate and direct route to advaita, though it might be pressing for devoted bhaktis solely out of Buddha or Jesus or Mohammed to so agree. Audiences with no former contact with Hinduism might misinterpret the proposed hierarchy. Such presentations are always difficult. Could it be that a hierarchy based on various levels of perceived subtlety would be more affective, getting away from the world religious names, which especially now, again, are presenting so many problems to the world. Creating a hierarchy about the various perceptions dawning at various levels of consciousness could arouse a non confrontational interest from the newly aroused one. For instance, something along the lines of progressive movement from religious fundamentalism to subtler advaita: 1 - Religion that self is born into -- presented automatically on birth and habituated thereafter through repetition of intellectual dogma along with feelings of well being. 2 - Vedanta-Advaita - the emergence of a more comprehensive world model as earlier habituation is outgrown, where subtler forms of divine outpourings blossom forward. I do not consider this Vedanta-Advaita end of the spectrum to be Hindu knowledge, any more than I consider Einstein's Relativity to be Jewish or German knowledge. In both cases, the knowledge is about universal law applicable to everyone. However, to be sure, Germans and Jews were the principle source of such physical knowledge a while back, just as Vedic articulators are now the principle source of the Vedanta-Advaita views. jai guru dev, Edmond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 Dear Friends First of all the Primer is a perfect idea and congratulations to all on this project Specific to a Primer in the format of Religion Hinduism Vedanta Advaita in that specific order and with these specific words is really perfect for someone who is just getting initiated into spritual matters because these are the words and subject matter that act as a bridge from the uninitiated to the initiated and is an Introduction to more advanced Knowledge and Learning Primers are for introduction to new learning for those who are seeking new learning and this is perfect Thank You for this as will be looking forward to reading and learning Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum DharmaDev Arya edmeasure <edmeasure advaitin <advaitin> Saturday, June 01, 2002 7:47 AM Re: Re: Draft of " Primer for Beginners" in Advaita >In a message dated 5/31/2002 11:09:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >pbvrajan writes: > > >> . . .I think we may start with Religion>Hinduism>Vedanta> Advaita >> in that order, especially for those who are just getting initiated into the >> spiritual matters. > >With greatest respect and kindness, may I please remark on this ordered >outline for a "Primer . . .". Immediately, I asked myself, "Who is the >intended audience for this Primer?" If it is to be the greater Hindu >environment, then perhaps this is good; I know not. If the audience is to be >the world at large, then I would think that the above 'Hinduism' would rather >be a subset of 'Religion'. Understandably, perhaps it is that the Hindu >culture provides a more immediate and direct route to advaita, though it >might be pressing for devoted bhaktis solely out of Buddha or Jesus or >Mohammed to so agree. Audiences with no former contact with Hinduism might >misinterpret the proposed hierarchy. Such presentations are always >difficult. > >Could it be that a hierarchy based on various levels of perceived subtlety >would be more affective, getting away from the world religious names, which >especially now, again, are presenting so many problems to the world. >Creating a hierarchy about the various perceptions dawning at various levels >of consciousness could arouse a non confrontational interest from the newly >aroused one. For instance, something along the lines of progressive movement >from religious fundamentalism to subtler advaita: > >1 - Religion that self is born into -- presented automatically on birth and >habituated thereafter through repetition of intellectual dogma along with >feelings of well being. > >2 - Vedanta-Advaita - the emergence of a more comprehensive world model as >earlier habituation is outgrown, where subtler forms of divine outpourings >blossom forward. > >I do not consider this Vedanta-Advaita end of the spectrum to be Hindu >knowledge, any more than I consider Einstein's Relativity to be Jewish or >German knowledge. In both cases, the knowledge is about universal law >applicable to everyone. However, to be sure, Germans and Jews were the >principle source of such physical knowledge a while back, just as Vedic >articulators are now the principle source of the Vedanta-Advaita views. > >jai guru dev, > >Edmond > > > > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 Namaste, Edmondji is right. A renowned teacher of advaita once said that this knowledge (advaitic) exists in many parts of the world, but, the Indian methodology of arriving at it is unique. Vedanta/advaita belongs to all thinking beings whereever and whoever they are. About the primer, the way things are moving I am afraid we would end up writing Indian history! My opinion is that we stick to a very simple but enlightening treatise on advaita alone. Pranams to all. Madathil Nair __________ advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote: > > I do not consider this Vedanta-Advaita end of the spectrum to be Hindu > knowledge, any more than I consider Einstein's Relativity to be Jewish or > German knowledge. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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