Deep sleep state

[Guest guest]

Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Deep Sleep are essentially the same. The difference

is this. In Nirvikalpa, individual consciousness enters the Heart

Consciously and becomes (or Recognizes It Self as Sat-Chit-Ananda) and comes

out Consciously ---- thus completing the full circuit Consciously.

Consciousness is then seen to be fully unbroken and continuous and the

identity of the essence of individual consciousness with that of

Sat-Chit-Ananda becomes obvious. In the waking state "Sat" is apparent but

Chit and Ananda are veiled to different degrees by the force of Maya.

 

When Individual consciousness goes to deep sleep, it usually cannot retain

awareness due to the force of Maya. Therefore, the apparent forgetfulness

and the question, where was I?

 

In Nirvikalpa, such a question, "Where was I", Who am I, etc. do not arise.

Consciousness Knows that Consciousness Was Where It Ever Is Eternally.

Having swallowed up Space and Time, such questions cannot arise.

 

That is called the Silence of the Heart. Its nature is that of

Sat-Chit-Ananda. Fullness in all its Fullness.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I accept your views without qualms, dear Harshaji. However, what

bothers me is why we, as advaitins, should talk about individual

consciousness when the waking world of today yearns for universality

beyond national and cultural limitations. May be I am asking this

foolish question because I have not so far had any samaadhi

experience (or, if at all I have had one, I have not been able to

recognize it!).

 

Immense thanks for your input.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

_____________________________

 

advaitin, "Harsha" wrote:

> Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Deep Sleep are essentially the same. The

difference

> is this. In Nirvikalpa, individual consciousness enters the Heart

> Consciously and becomes (or Recognizes It Self as Sat-Chit-Ananda)

and comes

> out Consciously ---- thus completing the full circuit Consciously.

> Consciousness is then seen to be fully unbroken and continuous and

the

> identity of the essence of individual consciousness with that of

> Sat-Chit-Ananda becomes obvious. In the waking state "Sat" is

apparent but

> Chit and Ananda are veiled to different degrees by the force of

Maya.

>

> When Individual consciousness goes to deep sleep, it usually cannot

retain

> awareness due to the force of Maya. Therefore, the apparent

forgetfulness

> and the question, where was I?

>

> In Nirvikalpa, such a question, "Where was I", Who am I, etc. do

not arise.

> Consciousness Knows that Consciousness Was Where It Ever Is

Eternally.

> Having swallowed up Space and Time, such questions cannot arise.

>

> That is called the Silence of the Heart. Its nature is that of

> Sat-Chit-Ananda. Fullness in all its Fullness.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 

madathilnair [madathilnair]

Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:28 PM

advaitin

Re: Deep sleep state

 

I accept your views without qualms, dear Harshaji. However, what

bothers me is why we, as advaitins, should talk about individual

consciousness when the waking world of today yearns for universality

beyond national and cultural limitations. May be I am asking this

foolish question because I have not so far had any samaadhi

experience (or, if at all I have had one, I have not been able to

recognize it!).

 

Immense thanks for your input.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

_____________________________

 

Dear Nairji:

 

I share with you the yearning for going beyond national and cultural

limitations.

 

May all beings be free from sorrow.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/29/2002 3:29:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

madathilnair writes:

 

> May be I am asking this

> foolish question because I have not so far had any samaadhi

> experience (or, if at all I have had one, I have not been able to

> recognize it!).

>

> Immense thanks for your input.

>

> Best regards.

>

> Madathil Nair

>

 

But it is truly possible to know this samadhi, first hand, by direct

experience, but as you say, hardly a one there is who wants to hear. Indeed,

this message may not even reach you as it probably will continue NOT to be

sent across to the group e-mail bins. I don't think the moderators feel

interested in such messages. Talking around in this group with all the

expertise and deep worded wisdom herein is not that which brings about a

samadhi experience. Samadhi is beyond words and intellect. One just can't

pull oneself up by his own boot straps. The pride and long term habituation

to the intellectual routine, solely, inhibits and stops the possibility even,

of allowing samadhi flowings to move forward. Innocence like the 5-year old

child is needed, especially in going deep into puja with proper holy

tradition, with deep yearning and irresistible drawing to joy.

 

jai guru dev,

 

Edmond Chouinard

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Shri Ramchandranji.

 

You have gone so deep that I am already feeling giddy. I have to get

over it, for your thoughts are food for lot of rumination and

contemplation.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

 

_________________

 

 

advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> Namaste Sri Madthilnair:

>

> Your concluding statement was quite effective to get the essence of

> advaita in a nutshell. Let me add the following additional

comments

> and pretend that 'understood the difference between deep sleep and

the

> waking state!.

>

> The statements:

> 'I know that I don't know' and

> 'I don't know that I don't know'

> though in appearance look different (dual) but in reality are

> non-dual!

>

> Also, 'I don't know that I know' and 'I know that I know' will fall

> into the same category.

>

> Due to the spell of 'mAyA' we do state:

> 'I don't know whatever I should know' and

> 'I know whatever I shouldn't know.'

>

> A careful contemplation on the same line of thought will reach the

> conclusion "We can't be too sure of answers that distinguishes

between

> different states of our experiences." When we ponder over those

> answers, we infact go far away from the 'Truth of our existence!'

>

> regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Edmondji,

 

Received your post intact. Lot of thanks.

 

I have carefully read all your posts since you joined this List. I

appreciate your wisdom and spiritual experience.

 

You are right. Chilkdlike innocence, strong yearning, etc. are

prerequisites for uninhibited spiritual experiences. Let us all

endeavour in that direction.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

___________________________

 

advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

> But it is truly possible to know this samadhi, first hand, by

direct

> experience, but as you say, hardly a one there is who wants to

hear. Indeed,

> this message may not even reach you as it probably will continue

NOT to be

> sent across to the group e-mail bins. I don't think the moderators

feel

> interested in such messages. Talking around in this group with all

the

> expertise and deep worded wisdom herein is not that which brings

about a

> samadhi experience. Samadhi is beyond words and intellect. One

just can't

> pull oneself up by his own boot straps. The pride and long term

habituation

> to the intellectual routine, solely, inhibits and stops the

possibility even,

> of allowing samadhi flowings to move forward. Innocence like the 5-

year old

> child is needed, especially in going deep into puja with proper

holy

> tradition, with deep yearning and irresistible drawing to joy.

>

> jai guru dev,

>

> Edmond Chouinard

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste All,

> In a message dated 5/29/2002 3:29:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> madathilnair writes:

> > May be I am asking this

> > foolish question because I have not so far had any samaadhi

> > experience (or, if at all I have had one, I have not been able to

> > recognize it!).

 

This topic has been extensively discussed in the past. In this

regard I would like to mention two of my past postings: 11940

and 12008. I was able to find support for these postings in

Tripura Rahasya:

http://www.vinnica.ua/~sss/tripura2.htm#CHAPTER%20XVII

 

Mandukya upanishad refers to deep sleep as prajna that is the

source of all wisdom. How are we to understand this ?

 

advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

> Innocence like the 5-year old

> child is needed, especially in going deep into puja with proper

holy

> tradition, with deep yearning and irresistible drawing to joy.

>

 

Getting that innocence back is very challenging, if we are not

careful, we let the world expolit us. Innocence, positive

thinking when practised intentionally cause more harm than

not practising them.

 

Best regards

Shrinivas Gadkari

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "sgadkari2001" <sgadkari2001> wrote:

> advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

> > Innocence like the 5-year old

> > child is needed, especially in going deep into puja with proper

> holy

> > tradition, with deep yearning and irresistible drawing to joy.

> >

>

> Getting that innocence back is very challenging, if we are not

> careful, we let the world expolit us. Innocence, positive

> thinking when practised intentionally cause more harm than

> not practising them.

>

 

Namaste,

 

Felt it was incorrect on my part to point out a flaw in

this relevant point, namely, bring back the childhood

innocence into our lives.

 

A safe approach to take probably is the path of bhakti.

Whenever we see such child like innocence around us, take

a moment to recognize it as being an aspect of the divine.

Then unknowingly this divine quality will slowly distill

into our personality.

 

Best regards

Shrinivas Gadkari

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Thanks Shrinivasji, I read your posts 11940 and 12008 and also the

relevant part of Thripura Rahasya.

 

I am totally with you. Even while hammering this post out, I am

having fleeting micro-micro seconds of samaadhi. (It is sad that I

have to use the unit of time to explain this point!). But I don't

pause to recognize them!

 

Permit me to quote the relevant sections of Thripurarahasya referred

to by you about samaadhi and sleep:

 

QUOTE:

 

80. "Absolute Reality is manifest in Samadhi; a void or unmanifest

condition distinguishes sleep and diversity is the characteristic of

cognition in wakefulness.

 

81. "The illuminant is however the same all through and is always

unblemished. Therefore it is said to be abstract intelligence.

 

82. "Samadhi and sleep are obvious because their experience remains

unbroken for some appreciable period and can be recapitulated after

waking up.

 

84. "The wakeful state is iridescent with fleeting Samadhi and sleep.

Men when they are awake can detect fleeting sleep because they are

already conversant with its nature.

 

85-86. "But fleeting Samadhi goes undetected because people are not

so conversant with it. O Brahmin! fleeting Samadhi is indeed being

experienced by all, even in their busy moments; but it passes

unnoticed by them, for want of acquaintance with it. Every instant

free from thoughts and musings in the wakeful state is the condition

of Samadhi.

 

87. "Samadhi is simply absence of thoughts. Such a state prevails in

sleep and at odd moments of wakefulness.

 

88. "Yet, it is not called Samadhi proper, because all the

proclivities of the mind are still there latent, ready to manifest

the next instant.

 

UNQUOTE

 

But, Shrinivasji, sleep experience still is an illumination of "I did

not know anything". Isn't there anything that relates to a sense of

physical well-being (refreshed feeling) after sleep that makes us

say "I *enjoyed* sleep? In this regard, I would request you to

surmise what the man whom I have put in space would say because he is

not aware of any of his biological processes. Will he ever recognize

the fact that he slept?

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

_____________

 

advaitin, "sgadkari2001" <sgadkari2001> wrote:

> Namaste All,

> This topic has been extensively discussed in the past. In this

> regard I would like to mention two of my past postings: 11940

> and 12008. I was able to find support for these postings in

> Tripura Rahasya:

> http://www.vinnica.ua/~sss/tripura2.htm#CHAPTER%20XVII

>

> Mandukya upanishad refers to deep sleep as prajna that is the

> source of all wisdom. How are we to understand this ?

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/30/2002 7:59:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

sgadkari2001 writes:

 

> . . . bring back the childhood

> innocence into our lives.

>

> A safe approach to take probably is the path of bhakti.

> Whenever we see such child like innocence around us, take

> a moment to recognize it as being an aspect of the divine.

> Then unknowingly this divine quality will slowly distill

> into our personality.

 

A question arises as to how safe any particular path of bhakti may be. The

'safety' aspect would seem to depend on several parameters, i.e., how the

path is performed and to whom the path is performed upon. With what

particular agency is a yearning superposition of subtle prakriti being

developed? To answer such a question, it would seem useful to know more

about exactly what bhakti is all about, i.e., the actual operational

mechanics that result in the experience of bhakti. There would seem to be

many levels and flavors associated with divine qualities, some that are

better liked than others and most importantly, some that are more

evolutionary than others. 'Safety' then, would seem to correspond to the

degree of yajna associated with the thoughts and actions of bhakti, and

particularly with the thought and action qualities inherent in the integrated

holy tradition where bhakti is being directed.

 

And how can the inherent qualities of a holy tradition be evaluated? I see

no way except through personal experience in evaluating results of many holy

traditions. There are differences in subtleties among traditions, i.e.,

among levels in purity of yajna being supported, among the associated states

of realized consciousness. It is in playing among several or many holy

traditions that such flavors may be seen. Perhaps some days we move one way

and on another day we move another way. A rich vocabulary then develops

through associated personal experiences and this development occurs through a

variety of energy flowings in the mind-body system. New expressions of

subtle prakriti mechanics then begin to evolve in consciousness as innocence

and awe allow the subtle universe to become more visible.

 

Since everything that we are doing here is self-referential, it would seem

that in the end, we must take self as the final authority, yes brahman also

and all that, but here in the sense of the self-reliance as expressed in the

transcendentalism of Emerson and Thoreau, for instance. We can only stand on

the shoulders of all the giants preceding us (and all the giants here on this

list) to yet peruse the greater arcane values of existence. That is, it

would seem that there must be a time that we must leave our parents,

forefathers, teachers, and gurus, to go to a self-reliant existence, based on

self, for self, by the self, so help us our god self. Yet, all the time we

know that there is nothing being said or done that has not come from the

mouths of others earlier in time who have taught us. We maintain a

superposition, bhakti association with all of our past, yet we are finally

grown up and go on our own. It is my feeling that only then does growth

move, very quickly indeed.

 

jai guru deva, punah, punah

 

Edmond

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste MadathilnairJi,

 

Thanks for quoting the verses of Tripura Rahasya, here is one more:

 

Chapter XVII,

 

15-18.

(Deleted)

"Anyway when once interruptions in the stream of Intelligence are

admitted, it follows that these intervals between the various

modifications of the intellect into objects, would represent its

unmodified, original state."

 

*****************************************************************

"O son of Kahoela, know that if one can become aware of these broken

Samadhis no other Samadhi need attract one."

*****************************************************************

 

I think this is a very important point, we are all hunting for

samadhi and are oblivious of the samadhi experience that comes

to us so often. Does this not remind us of Shankara words (I think

they are Shankaras): We are already Self realized, we just dont

know it.

>

> But, Shrinivasji, sleep experience still is an illumination of "I

did

> not know anything". Isn't there anything that relates to a sense

of

> physical well-being (refreshed feeling) after sleep that makes us

> say "I *enjoyed* sleep? In this regard, I would request you to

> surmise what the man whom I have put in space would say because he

is

> not aware of any of his biological processes. Will he ever

recognize

> the fact that he slept?

>

 

There are two issues here:

1. Will the man realize that he slept ?

2. If yes, will he feel that he enjoyed sleep ?

 

To realize that he had fallen asleep, he does not need

awareness of the physical plane. Sleep simply is a blank

period between thoughts CHARACTERIZED BY IGNORANCE.

 

So yes, he will realize that he slept.

 

2. To say he enjoyed sleep he necessarily has to feel

good in some sense after sleep. This feeling of goodness

may not be of physical origin. Though typically it will

be a physical feeling.

 

So this man may or may not say that he enjoyed sleep.

 

Best regards

Shrinivas Gadkari

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shrinivasji,

 

I admire your conviction, for which, I am sure, our philosophical

texts including Thripura Rahasya, are the basis.

 

However, about this fellow in outer space, I am afraid I have to

differ. Kindly be severely critical with me if I am wrong.

 

You said sleep is a blank. A blank, a not experiencing, is also like

any other experience, because it is objectified. But, the difference

is that it is objectified upon waking as a past experience. They

call it prathiabhigna. Whatever the name, as we know it, it is

something recalled. But, there is an essential difference. With the

other experiences there is apparently an "actual experiencing" and

then a subsequent "recalling of experience". With regard to sleep,

however, the second part operates without the first. (Please note

that I am not stating this based on any philosophical postulate or

theory. I am just analyzing the subject like one not exposed to any

philosophy would do. So, I don't want to introduce into this

discussion any "silent witness" etc. who witnessed the sleep

experience while it was ongoing).

 

As a non-philosophical person, my conclusion then is that I just

become aware of a "refreshing" like I am aware of other

objects/experiences. Since I am the only subject and everything else

and other people in my life who corroborate this perceived world for

me are objects of my knowledge, I have to necessarily base my

conclusions on my point of view and experience alone. The points of

view of others with regard to this experience do not count at all.

 

So, let us look at the essential progression in my experiencing: "I

know I have had a tiring time. I know I am exhausted. I know I wish

if I could have some rest. I know I am now feeling rested and

refreshed. I know I slept, i.e. I know I did not know anything,

because there is an apparent inexplicable gap". This experiential

progression of cognitions is a continuous chain linked by the micro-

samaadhis (Please permit this expression.) between them. It is

corroboration by others and things external to me (day, night, time

shown, biological changes etc.) that introduces the sense of a gap.

That is a necessary "add in" for me to substantiate my "sleep

experience" as the reason for my feeling refreshed.

 

So, what I mean to say is that, if I look at the progression purely

from my subjective angle, which is of paramount importance in

advaita, there is no real "gap" at all, and, therefore, there is no

need to take recourse to postulates like prathyabhigna, which is

required only when the subject is discussed and understood from a

collective point of view where the act of sleeping is a collectively

acknowledged event.

 

This leads me to the conclusion that, in situations sans temporal

physiological and circumstantial awareness, sleep will not be known

at all. Our fellow in space, therefore, does not know that he slept.

Nevertheless, his awareness is continuous like ours; the exclusion of

a "gap", which we feel here down below, makes no difference.

Inclusive of the gaps we are continuous and exclusive of the same he

is also continuous. There is, therefore, advaita in both. This

explanation also speaks for a "continuous present" without past and

future as both past and future are "objects" in the present.

 

I may be totally wrong in expressing this personal opinion. However,

as of now, I feel that it does not contradict the essence of

advaita. All are welcome to correct me.

 

Best regards and pranams to all.

 

Madathil Naair

 

__________________________

advaitin, "sgadkari2001" <sgadkari2001> wrote:

> Namaste MadathilnairJi,

>

> Thanks for quoting the verses of Tripura Rahasya, here is one more:

>

> Chapter XVII,

>

> 15-18.

> (Deleted)

> "Anyway when once interruptions in the stream of Intelligence are

> admitted, it follows that these intervals between the various

> modifications of the intellect into objects, would represent its

> unmodified, original state."

>

> *****************************************************************

> "O son of Kahoela, know that if one can become aware of these

broken

> Samadhis no other Samadhi need attract one."

> *****************************************************************

>

> I think this is a very important point, we are all hunting for

> samadhi and are oblivious of the samadhi experience that comes

> to us so often. Does this not remind us of Shankara words (I think

> they are Shankaras): We are already Self realized, we just dont

> know it.

>

> >

> > But, Shrinivasji, sleep experience still is an illumination of "I

> did

> > not know anything". Isn't there anything that relates to a sense

> of

> > physical well-being (refreshed feeling) after sleep that makes us

> > say "I *enjoyed* sleep? In this regard, I would request you to

> > surmise what the man whom I have put in space would say because

he

> is

> > not aware of any of his biological processes. Will he ever

> recognize

> > the fact that he slept?

> >

>

> There are two issues here:

> 1. Will the man realize that he slept ?

> 2. If yes, will he feel that he enjoyed sleep ?

>

> To realize that he had fallen asleep, he does not need

> awareness of the physical plane. Sleep simply is a blank

> period between thoughts CHARACTERIZED BY IGNORANCE.

>

> So yes, he will realize that he slept.

>

> 2. To say he enjoyed sleep he necessarily has to feel

> good in some sense after sleep. This feeling of goodness

> may not be of physical origin. Though typically it will

> be a physical feeling.

>

> So this man may or may not say that he enjoyed sleep.

>

> Best regards

> Shrinivas Gadkari

[Guest guest]

madathilnair <madathilnair wrote:

Namaste Shrinivasji,

 

However, about this fellow in outer space, I am afraid I have to

differ. Kindly be severely critical with me if I am wrong.

 

As a non-philosophical person, my conclusion then is that I just

become aware of a "refreshing" like I am aware of other

objects/experiences.

 

_______-

 

Dear Madathilnairji,

 

Your example of an imaginary situation is in no way different from a Vyavaharika

Jiva's daily experience of going to sleep and getting up!

 

'Space' in your example is in no way different from the space in which this

universe appears to exist. The couple of stars in your example are also in no

way different from the various objects that appear to exist in our

environment.Further, a person who gets up from sleep may not necessarrily have a

refreshed feeling always and could sometimes even feel miserable that he could

not sleep well atall!

 

I have myself also not had any experience of "Samadhi". Basically,no jiva can

ever have the "Experience" of "Samadhi".For, in Samadhi,there is only the "

I-THE SELF" as the "ANUBHAVA VIGRAHAHAA"--The "REALISED SELF.

 

This only reminds me of Ashtavakra's finishing two slokas( XX-13,14)which are as

follows:

 

"Kvopadeshahaa kva vaa shastram kva shishyahaa kva cha vaa guruhuh,

Kvachaasti purusharthovaa nirupaadhehey shivasya mey."

 

Where are instruction and scriptural injunction,where is the disciple and where

is the preceptor;Where indeed,is the object of life for me who am absolute good

and free from limitation?

 

"Kvachaasti kvachavaanasti kvaasti chaikam kva cha dwayam Bahunaatra kimuktena

kinchinnotishtate mama."

 

Where is existence, where is non-existence;where is unity,where is duality? What

need is there to say more? Nothing emanates from me.

 

According to Ashtavakra, there is but one Reality , the Infinite,indivisible

Self which is Knowledge Absolute,Bliss Absolute.The realisation of the Self is

the only summum bonum and in this alone does life find its fulfilment.

 

If you come across a jivanmukta or a Brahmanishti,do let me know so that I too

can have the opportunity to have satsangh with such a ONE.

 

May we strive for this.

 

Hari Om!

 

Swamainarayan.

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Swaminarayanji,

 

Thanks for your views.

 

I am afraid you missed why I put the guy in space and not on bed in

mundane surroundings. In outer-space, in the situation I described,

there is nothing in his environment to tell him about change. Change

is important here. Our going to sleep at home is different in the

sense that the environmental details (not to speak of the biological

aspects) when we go to sleep and emerge from sleep are different.

Change lets us appreciate a gap. Another important aspect is that

our sleep is mostly fitful. There are, therefore, experiences of

varying degrees of intensity taking place during sleep, which make

the sleeper aware that he was in fact "sleeping". Our sleep is not

just like a switch-off and switch-on situation. Our man in space

experienced his last heart-beat before he "switched off" and felt

another heart-beat when he "switched on". That the heart beat

several times between the two experiences is non-existent as far he

is concerned. Nothing has changed in the surroundings while he

slept. There is nothing to tell him of any change. So, I feel

repeat I feel that he will not know that he slept.

 

I fully accept Ashtavakra's statements. I don't understand why you

quoted them.

 

About Samaadhi, I also have not "had" one. Having laboured with

Advaita so far, I would not look for such an "experience" even if

offered free of cost. However, there is no denying the fact that the

awareness that I am Consciousness and that everything is within me

has given me great moments of ectasy. I can feel that joy even now

as I express myself on this keyboard for you. Isn't that enough,

Swaminarayanji?

 

I believe a person who has understood what Ashtavakra said and goes

on this roller-coaster ride of existence with that attitude of

surrender implied in "Sarva Dharmaan Parithyaajya, Maamekam Saranam

Vraja....." at the end of Bhagvat Geetha (not even desiring a

samaadhi experience) is a jeevanmuktha. I have no one of that

stature in sight right now. That I don't see anyone now does not mean

that there aren't any. However, when I "know" that I have reached

that stage, I will sure visit you or at least send you my

photograph. I am joking, Swaminarayanji.

 

Thanks for your wonderful views. It was a pleasure reading your

post. Do keep posting.

 

Best regards.

 

Madahtil Nair

_______________

 

advaitin, Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan> wrote:

> > Dear Madathilnairji,

>

> Your example of an imaginary situation is in no way different from

a Vyavaharika Jiva's daily experience of going to sleep and getting

up!

>

> 'Space' in your example is in no way different from the space in

which this universe appears to exist. The couple of stars in your

example are also in no way different from the various objects that

appear to exist in our environment.Further, a person who gets up from

sleep may not necessarrily have a refreshed feeling always and could

sometimes even feel miserable that he could not sleep well atall!

[Guest guest]

Regarding the ongoing discussion about the astronaut's (non-) experience of

deep sleep in space:

 

I understand what you are getting at, Madathilji, but is it not possible to

establish what actually happens in a situation such as this? What you

describe is a state of sensory deprivation and there have been many

experiments conducted on this. I tried to find some relevant data on the

Internet today but was not very successful. Perhaps Sunder H. might be

interested in having a look? (He is a wizard at finding things!)

 

One article I did find ('A Study on Polysomnographic Observations and

Subjective Experiences under Sensory Deprivations' Kazuki Iwata, Mitsuaki

Yamamoto, Mitsuyuki Nakao and Masayuki Kimura) made the following statement:

"In this case, the subject reported that she had deeply slept, and had not

perceived visual images. On the polysomnograph, delta waves were

predominantly observed(Fig.2-b)."

 

The implication is that people may well be aware of having slept, even

though there are apparently no sensory clues to indicate passage of time.

 

(Apologies if someone has already suggested this - I am a couple of days

behind on my reading!)

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I have not followed this thread closely, as Yoga/Meditation

literature is fairly consistent in asserting the Turiya/Advaita state

pervading all the other states [awake, dreaming, sleep].

 

These two articles may shed more light for the 'biologically'

inclined investigators:

 

 

http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic444.htm

 

http://www.floatdreams.com/brainwaves.htm

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@d...> wrote:

> Regarding the ongoing discussion about the astronaut's (non-)

experience of

> deep sleep in space:

>

> One article I did find ('A Study on Polysomnographic Observations

and

> Subjective Experiences under Sensory Deprivations' Kazuki Iwata,

Mitsuaki

> Yamamoto, Mitsuyuki Nakao and Masayuki Kimura) made the following

statement:

> "In this case, the subject reported that she had deeply slept, and

had not

> perceived visual images. On the polysomnograph, delta waves were

> predominantly observed(Fig.2-b)."

>

> The implication is that people may well be aware of having slept,

even

> though there are apparently no sensory clues to indicate passage of

time.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Waite,

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

Perhaps, you are right it may not possible for us to establish the

turth. However, whether the guy recalls his sleep experience or not,

there is the subjective continuity all the same. That is important

for us and that was what I was trying to stress, i.e. the view of

a "witness" witnessing the sleep experience and then recalling it

after waking is not that very essential for us to understand the

truth of advaita if the question is looked at from the subjective

angle of the "experiencer". I have never questioned thuriya as Shri

SunderH seems to imply. (By the way, Thuriya is not a state - it is

that because of which the other three states exist.). I know that I,

at this moment, sans these seeming projections, am Thuriya and always

Thuriya.

 

Thanks once again.

 

Madathil Nair

 

________________

 

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@d...> wrote:

> Regarding the ongoing discussion about the astronaut's (non-)

experience of

> deep sleep in space:

>

> I understand what you are getting at, Madathilji, but is it not

possible to

> establish what actually happens in a situation such as this? What

you

> describe is a state of sensory deprivation and there have been many

> experiments conducted on this. I tried to find some relevant data

on the

> Internet today but was not very successful. Perhaps Sunder H. might

be

> interested in having a look? (He is a wizard at finding things!)

>

> One article I did find ('A Study on Polysomnographic Observations

and

> Subjective Experiences under Sensory Deprivations' Kazuki Iwata,

Mitsuaki

> Yamamoto, Mitsuyuki Nakao and Masayuki Kimura) made the following

statement:

> "In this case, the subject reported that she had deeply slept, and

had not

> perceived visual images. On the polysomnograph, delta waves were

> predominantly observed(Fig.2-b)."

>

> The implication is that people may well be aware of having slept,

even

> though there are apparently no sensory clues to indicate passage of

time.

>

> (Apologies if someone has already suggested this - I am a couple of

days

> behind on my reading!)

>

> Dennis

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/4/2002 5:01:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

dwaite writes:

 

> Regarding the ongoing discussion about the astronaut's (non-) experience of

> deep sleep in space:

>

> I understand what you are getting at, Madathilji, but is it not possible to

> establish what actually happens in a situation such as this? What you

> describe is a state of sensory deprivation and there have been many

> experiments conducted on this.

 

Harvard did a big study on such things quite a while back. Folks were

isolated in a chamber completely devoid of outside influences, no windows,

noises, radio, TV, etc. Environmental temperatures were kept warm and

constant. Their sleep cycles were quickly disrupted from the normal 24-hour

cycle and eventually they became quite disoriented.

 

NASA does have lots of info on such things, though, but they remain ever so

tight lipped about it all. Long ago, perhaps the moon visit or thereabouts,

one astronaut said spontaneously on public TV that he experienced lots of

every so tiny flashing lights about him during portions of the trip. I tried

to follow up on this but got cutoff along every step of the way.

 

Long ago, Jose Silva, living in Texas near some major NASA facilities, tried

to dig in more, concerning other similar such things, which sounded so very

close to the experiences had by many folks with his 'Mind Control'

techniques. He, of course, was quickly escorted out of NASA. Jose Silva

took a couple of basic Rosicrucian principles and developed some amazing

simple techniques, far exceeding what Rosicrucians had been doing, which

were/are absolutely phenomenal in the realm of yoga sutra type activities,

all with a turn of the century 6th grade school education in rural Mexico.

There are things long happening in the domains of subtle states of

consciousness that are absolutely phenomenal and repeatable, meeting all of

the preliminary demands of any science, yet the worlds of government, power,

and academia continue to cringe and conspire in forceful revolt and cover-up.

Not too much different from the X-Files TV series. The power of avidya.

Amazing!

 

jai guru dev,

 

Edmond

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/5/2002 12:54:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

madathilnair writes:

 

> . . . (By the way, Thuriya is not a state - it is

> that because of which the other three states exist.). I know that I,

> at this moment, sans these seeming projections, am Thuriya and always

> Thuriya.

>

 

This is a very important point often mixed with lots of confusion. On the

one hand, it is so easy to discern seven distinct states of consciousness:

sleep, dream, waking, thuriya, cosmic, god, and unity; needed for

discrimination, for those ultimate jeweled viveka experiences that are

indispensable for the growth of awareness. Yet, on the other hand, in a very

real sense, all of these states are always around all of the time, though in

ever varying degrees of appreciation among the states. Our consciousness

floats among these states, in varying degrees, whether or not we attach a

name to them. Our cultures promptly stomp out appreciation or even admission

of their being more subtle states long before puberty. This is the lost of

innocence. The most subtle tattva left in society's consciousness for

adornment is buddhi, that intellectual prowess that dominates the higher good

of society, which is here reflected in advaita. It would seem to be time

now, to pursue these more subtle states of consciousness, starting with a

good grounding in turiya and moving on to the more subtle strata.

 

jai guru dev,

 

Edmond

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Perhaps there is a better translation for the

word 'turyAvasthA' which is used in several upanishads.

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

(By the way, Thuriya is not a state - it is

> that because of which the other three states exist.).

[Guest guest]

Hi to you both, am enjoying your explorations :-)

 

advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/5/2002 12:54:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> madathilnair writes:

>

>

> > . . . (By the way, Thuriya is not a state - it is

> > that because of which the other three states exist.). I know

that I,

> > at this moment, sans these seeming projections, am Thuriya and

always

> > Thuriya.

> >

>

 

Ed:

 

Our cultures promptly stomp out appreciation or even admission

> of their being more subtle states long before puberty. This is the

lost of

> innocence.

 

 

This is such a beautiful word ~ innocence ~ without attachment to

clinging to a position ~ but floating with what is.

 

I work with young children. I see soul shining so much. I also get to

see it being clouded & veiled as they start to age & receive

education that does not welcome soul into the world.

 

Around the age of 6, the natural radiance & joy that children display

begins to be dulled as they learn to start trying to become .. to

become what others tell them to seek to be (without honouring what is

already present). It is very sad.

 

Children have so much they can teach the rest of us.

 

Col

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

One of the dilemmas in the discussion of deep sleep is : how

can one state of Ignorance/Maya validate its conclusions about

another state which is also part of Ignorance/Maya?

 

It would be highly desirable to discuss the 7th mantra of

Mandukya Upanishad, Gaudapada's karikas #10-18 in Agama Prakarana,

and Shankara's Bhashya on both.

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

 

it is so easy to discern seven distinct states of consciousness:

> sleep, dream, waking, thuriya, cosmic, god, and unity; needed for

> discrimination, for those ultimate jeweled viveka experiences that

are

> indispensable for the growth of awareness. Yet, on the other hand,

in a very

> real sense, all of these states are always around all of the time,

though in

> ever varying degrees of appreciation among the states. Our

consciousness

> floats among these states, in varying degrees, whether or not we

attach a

> name to them.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

My opinion is based on the term "avasthaathrayam" repeated frequently

in vedanta and by Sankara, and reinforced by the following daily

prayer that most of us chant in the morning:

 

Praathasmaraami hridi samsphurathaathma thathwam

Sachchithsukham Pramahamsagathim Thureeeyam

Yathswapnajaagarasushupthamavaithi nithyam

Thath brahmanishkalamaham na cha boothasanghah

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

_______________________

 

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> Perhaps there is a better translation for the

> word 'turyAvasthA' which is used in several upanishads.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunder

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

In the Tattva Bodha too, it appears as 'avasthaatraya saakshi'. So Turiya is

indeed the witness of the 3 experiential states permeating the three.

Regards.

>

> madathilnair [sMTP:madathilnair]

> Thursday, June 06, 2002 2:15 PM

> advaitin

> Re: Deep Sleep State

>

> Namaste,

>

> My opinion is based on the term "avasthaathrayam" repeated frequently

> in vedanta and by Sankara, and reinforced by the following daily

> prayer that most of us chant in the morning:

>

> Praathasmaraami hridi samsphurathaathma thathwam

> Sachchithsukham Pramahamsagathim Thureeeyam

> Yathswapnajaagarasushupthamavaithi nithyam

> Thath brahmanishkalamaham na cha boothasanghah

>

> Pranams.

>

> Madathil Nair

> _______________________

>

> advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

> > Namaste,

> >

> > Perhaps there is a better translation for the

> > word 'turyAvasthA' which is used in several upanishads.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sunder

> >

>

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

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>

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>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Yes, Edmondji, you are right - there are so many "seeming" states if

one is a freelance floater who has imbibed the essence of advaita but

still wants to enjoy the leela of maaya. For others who prefer to

close their eyes and look intwards while the enchanting dance goes

on, there are moorings and buoys required. The advaitic explanation

of the three states (avasthas) and thuriya pervading all of them

provides a solid mooring for them.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

_____

 

advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

> This is a very important point often mixed with lots of confusion.

On the

> one hand, it is so easy to discern seven distinct states of

consciousness:

> sleep, dream, waking, thuriya, cosmic, god, and unity; needed for

> discrimination, for those ultimate jeweled viveka experiences that

are

> indispensable for the growth of awareness. Yet, on the other hand,

in a very

> real sense, all of these states are always around all of the time,

though in

> ever varying degrees of appreciation among the states. Our

consciousness

> floats among these states, in varying degrees, whether or not we

attach a

> name to them.