Meeting the clergy in London

[Guest guest]

Yesterday afternoon I was invited to meet a group from 'Churches together'

(consisting of clergy from Church of England, Baptist, Methodist, Quaker,

and Evangelical churches) forum in Pinner. Let me share with the list some

of the themes we touched on.

 

The reason why they wanted to talk to me were:-

(1) In this part of London one third of the population is Hindu - so

they wish to understand some of the basic concepts of Hinduism. e.g.

How would the Hindus look on conversion? asked the Evangelist : )

 

(2) Since September the 11th, religions face the following serious

challenge. How can religions co-exist without feeling threatened or

without having to water down their beliefs?

 

The way to go about this, I suggested is:-

Theological acceptance of pluralism.

The fact that there seems to be more than one path leading to the

(possibly) same ultimate has to be reconciled theologically within each

faith. This, at the moment is impossible and yet will have to happen if we

do not want September the 11th being repeated over and over again.

This will mean having to re-examine and re-interpret the scriptures

and theological foundations of religions, making allowance that however

grand these teachings may have appeared - they can only have contextual

(not absolute) significance. It is not only Islam which will strongly disagree

to any such re-interpretation, the Church will have great problem too!

 

The all-inclusive ideas within Hinduism that allows for and in fact

promotes 'pluralism' in spirituality is a very important tool that has to

be invoked.

 

It says that spiritual growth at all stages from the crudest to the most

theologically sophisticated, all have room and validity; as they allow

for and appeal to mankind at various levels of spiritual growth. This is

not a statement of compromise. It is a practical requirement. Spiritually

we can only progress from where we are and not where others are.

The path that relates to me and allows me to progress from where I

stand is the best path for me. This gives me the freedom to grow

spiritually from where I stand without feeling threatened or without

having to compromise the integrity of my chosen path. This is pluralism.

 

I suggested that even though the Interfaith movement at the moment

may appear 'Incidental' or if I want to be more unkind 'A token gesture'

with little or no relevance to the real world - the unfolding world events

will thrust 'Interfaith movements centre-stage'. To coin a phrase: This

little vehicle is about to be hi-jacked to take on a far greater role for the

benefit of mankind.

 

On the issue of conversion I had a bit of fun. I said my problem is Christians

emailing me asking me how to become Hindus... I have to tell them you are fine

where you are. Christianity is a valid, tried and tested pathway - you must

carry on,

do not become Hindus. This is pluralism in practise. On a more serious note I

said

that lessons the Christians and Muslims can learn about conversion comes from

the

first missionary religion the world saw - Buddhism.....it spread without force,

fear,

fraud or financial inducement. If you have to resort to these to spread your

religion

you demean your Christ.

 

There are some other issues that come to mind (which I did not discuss at this

meeting)

but which are relevant. Let me share my thoughts with the list - In the final

instance

the validity of each religion has to be the God-men of various religions and

their

spiritual experiences. They are the only proof or validity all religions can

offer. If pluralism

and interfaith ideas are thrust onto centre-stage to deal with the present

threat faced by mankind....... then a serious theological question will arise.

To justify 'pluralism' as

theologically valid we will now need a God-man who claims highest spiritual

experiences prescribed not just by one main religion but by a group of them

(preferably Christian, Muslim and Hindu!). Where do we find such a personality.

I wonder : )

 

jay (dilip)

Vivekananda Centre London

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaskar Mitra

 

Am understanding what you are saying here and commending you for your Bravery.

Am seeing that you are leading a totally Fearless Life on your Spiritual Path.

Please accept my greatest respect for the Path you have chosen. I wish you the

strength and protection of Lord Hanuman and Goddes Durga

 

Being raised as a Catholic in the Anglo Christian Society of America when I was

growing up my experience was that Christianity and Catholocism especially was

based in agony and suffereing and massive amounts of Guilt to manipulat the

mankind and that has caused intense damage to the Mankind and Womankind

throughout history from Holy Wars to the murdering of innocents in countries

that chose not to believe conversion was necessary. Christian and Catholic

Administrators continue their unacceptble acts today under the term of

prosletization changeing their tactics from murdering people to join their group

to offereing food to starving people to manipulate them to join their group

 

A reasonable thought process lead to the conclusion that there is the

possibility that Christ never intended for his work or life to become a religion

and then it is also possible due to the destructive history of the so called

Christian Religious Movement the Christian religion itself may be the Anti

Christ people keep ranting and raveing about. The past actions of Christian and

Catholic Administators have caused more damage than good however the people who

have been damaged are seldom heard from because they are shouted down and

shunned out of fear and superstition

 

Specific to any acceptance of Religious Pluralism there needs to be a standard

that determines if a what people are calling their religion qualifies as a

religion or simply an organization hiding behind Religious tenets so they can

take over the world at any cost like the Catholic Church that is responsble for

the murder of thousands of innocents in South America and Mexico

 

They key phrase here for acceptance in the process of determination are the

words Spiritual Growth at any level is considered valid and has a place

 

Some so called religions do not include Spiritual Growth as part of their agenda

to conquer the Mankind and have no place for consideration in Religious

Pluralism and someone in the near future is going to have to deal with these

determinations

 

When Lord Siva and the Shining Ones finally got through to me I found that

Sanatana Dharma that is Hinduism is based in Happiness and Knowledge and that

many other foriegn Religious Administrators throughout history actually took

from Sanatana Dharma and manipulated to fit their needs and called it their own

and then proceeded to denigrate and destroy Santatana Dharma. The leaders of the

Christian and Catholic movement seems to have been some of the worst for this

transgression

 

AM REALLY REALLY TOTALLY HAPPY TO BE HINDU AS THERE IS NO LIGHT BRIGHTER THAN

LORD SIVA AND THE SHINING ONES

 

Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum

Aum Namo Bahagavate Rudraya Namaha

Aum Gum Glaum Ganapatayei Namaha

Aum Srim Klim MahaLakshmiyei Swaha

Aum Eim Klim Saraswatyei Swaha

Aum Dum Durgayei Namaha

Aum Krim Kalikayei Namaha

Aum Sri Hanumate Ramaha

Aum Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum

 

Pranams

 

S R DharmaDeva Arya

Vivekananda Centre <vivekananda

list <ramakrishna >; Self Knowledge List

<selfknow-l

Thursday, June 13, 2002 1:35 AM

Meeting the clergy in London

 

 

Yesterday afternoon I was invited to meet a group from 'Churches together'

(consisting of clergy from Church of England, Baptist, Methodist, Quaker,

and Evangelical churches) forum in Pinner. Let me share with the list some

of the themes we touched on.

 

The reason why they wanted to talk to me were:-

(1) In this part of London one third of the population is Hindu - so

they wish to understand some of the basic concepts of Hinduism. e.g.

How would the Hindus look on conversion? asked the Evangelist : )

 

(2) Since September the 11th, religions face the following serious

challenge. How can religions co-exist without feeling threatened or

without having to water down their beliefs?

 

The way to go about this, I suggested is:-

Theological acceptance of pluralism.

The fact that there seems to be more than one path leading to the

(possibly) same ultimate has to be reconciled theologically within each

faith. This, at the moment is impossible and yet will have to happen if we

do not want September the 11th being repeated over and over again.

This will mean having to re-examine and re-interpret the scriptures

and theological foundations of religions, making allowance that however

grand these teachings may have appeared - they can only have contextual

(not absolute) significance. It is not only Islam which will strongly

disagree

to any such re-interpretation, the Church will have great problem too!

 

The all-inclusive ideas within Hinduism that allows for and in fact

promotes 'pluralism' in spirituality is a very important tool that has to

be invoked.

 

It says that spiritual growth at all stages from the crudest to the most

theologically sophisticated, all have room and validity; as they allow

for and appeal to mankind at various levels of spiritual growth. This is

not a statement of compromise. It is a practical requirement. Spiritually

we can only progress from where we are and not where others are.

The path that relates to me and allows me to progress from where I

stand is the best path for me. This gives me the freedom to grow

spiritually from where I stand without feeling threatened or without

having to compromise the integrity of my chosen path. This is pluralism.

 

I suggested that even though the Interfaith movement at the moment

may appear 'Incidental' or if I want to be more unkind 'A token gesture'

with little or no relevance to the real world - the unfolding world events

will thrust 'Interfaith movements centre-stage'. To coin a phrase: This

little vehicle is about to be hi-jacked to take on a far greater role for

the

benefit of mankind.

 

On the issue of conversion I had a bit of fun. I said my problem is

Christians

emailing me asking me how to become Hindus... I have to tell them you are

fine

where you are. Christianity is a valid, tried and tested pathway - you must

carry on,

do not become Hindus. This is pluralism in practise. On a more serious note

I said

that lessons the Christians and Muslims can learn about conversion comes

from the

first missionary religion the world saw - Buddhism.....it spread without

force, fear,

fraud or financial inducement. If you have to resort to these to spread your

religion

you demean your Christ.

 

There are some other issues that come to mind (which I did not discuss at

this meeting)

but which are relevant. Let me share my thoughts with the list - In the

final instance

the validity of each religion has to be the God-men of various religions and

their

spiritual experiences. They are the only proof or validity all religions can

offer. If pluralism

and interfaith ideas are thrust onto centre-stage to deal with the present

threat faced by mankind....... then a serious theological question will arise.

To justify 'pluralism' as

theologically valid we will now need a God-man who claims highest spiritual

experiences prescribed not just by one main religion but by a group of them

(preferably Christian, Muslim and Hindu!). Where do we find such a

personality.

I wonder : )

 

jay (dilip)

Vivekananda Centre London

 

 

 

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

May I submit for the attention of members on this list, the following

book : A Catholic Priest meets Sai Baba

by Don Mario Mazzoleni publd. by Sathya Sai Books and Publications

Trust(1998)?

It contains tons of ideas relevant to the subject of acceptance of

religious pluralism.

I give below just a very small sample of excerpts from the book:

-

 

..... we have one of the most obvious differences between Eastern

religions and Catholicism. In the East, free inquiry into the Divine

is a tradition, while the Vedic ritual is rigorously strict. In the

West, it is precisely the opposite: there is rigor on doctrinal

questions, which finds its fullest expression in dogma, and extreme

flexibility in the rituals, which change with the times and the

popes.

The saddest consequence of this is that the ecclesiastical authority

has more than once had to resort to repressive methods as the only

way to safeguard the integrity of doctrine, while it does nothing

about the fanciful initiatives that many pastors have taken in the

liturgy. The only purpose of the liturgy is to reveal through symbol

and gesture the secret truths concealed in them. But if the symbols

keep changing, their implicit meaning is lost. On the other hand, the

free inquiry into the Divine, unhampered by constrictions, fears and

threats, sharpens the power to intuit the Truth, which cannot be

reached by reason alone. .....

 

While a Hindu has no difficulty believing in the divinity of Jesus

Christ, and worshipping His form along with those of Krishna or Rama

or the avatars of Vishnu, for a westerner this would be apostasy.

The concept of avatar deserves close study on the part of Christian

scholars. The position taken by the Christian Church (and not just by

Catholics, in other words) on the figure of Christ does not see any

other possibility of redemption in the course of human history than

that linked with the name of Christ. The affirmation in the Acts of

Apostles (4.12) would not seem to leave any room for discussion: “For

of all names in the world given to men, this is the only one by which

we can be saved.” The name ‘Jesus’ in fact means ‘God saves’ and

this sentence drawn from Peter’s speech before the elders, scribes

and high priests of Jerusalem, underlines the saving power of that

name and of the work of Jesus,. Not many years had passed since His

crucifixion. At that particular moment the apostles were not

investigating what names and forms God takes in order to save

humanity, their concern was to spread the news that a great act of

redemption had occurred.

No human being has the authority to declare that God can only

incarnate in a certain way, or that He cannot choose to spread His

message as He wills, not only through prophets, but also incarnating

as the Christ, that is, as avatars. It would be an unforgivable

theological and philosophical absurdity to deny the Divine Power the

right of taking human form in other epochs, among other nations and

in other physical forms......

>From I. Timothy 2: ‘For there is only one God, and there is only one

mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus, who

sacrificed himself as a ransom for them all’. Paul says: Christ is

the only human manifestation of the Son. Therefore He alone has a

privileged and exclusive relation with the Trinity which for

Christians is clearly the only expression of God. Here, ‘For

Christians’ seems to imply, with noteworthy tolerance, that in other

cultures there may be other ways in which the divine is expressed and

explained. Paul seems to be saying: for us this is the way it is,

and there is no reason to change the form of God. Others reach the

same goal by other roads.

 

-

 

PraNAms to all advaitins,

Profvk

 

 

 

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

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http://fifaworldcup.