Guest guest Posted June 13, 2002 Report Share Posted June 13, 2002 Without wishing to cause offence to anyone, I am reminded of Swami Parthasarathy's comments regarding such phenomena. He said that whenever people talk to him about their experiences of seeing white lights etc. during meditation or whatever, he always recommends that they visit the optician! Regards, Dennis Incidentally, I'll drop out of the deep sleep discussions for the time being. I don't believe we have any fundamental disagreements on the subject and I see no purpose in trying further to press the points I was trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 In a message dated 6/13/2002 3:22:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dwaite writes: > Without wishing to cause offence to anyone, I am reminded of Swami > Parthasarathy's comments regarding such phenomena. He said that whenever > people talk to him about their experiences of seeing white lights etc. > during meditation or whatever, he always recommends that they visit the > optician! > > Regards, > > Dennis > Well, though I'm not an optician, perhaps I still can qualify for having extensive, in depth contact with most of its surrounding worlds, including the early pioneering work during the 60s about the mechanisms of vision via the Harvard cats and MIT frogs research programs. In addition, I've spent much of my life in optical physics and the measurements of flux that reaches the eyes. And I've had many intimate contacts with ophthalmologists about my own eyes and sight, even specifying my preferred eye glass lens formula in cooperation with optometrists. Yes, I am pretty much an optician, though not licensed. I'm sorry if I have offended some folks, here. I get spontaneously excited (joyous) on this sruti, smriti, and purana talk and sometimes come-on too strong. I think that dear Colette tried to moderate the intensity, but to little avail. However, Swami, above, undoubtedly has no experience about white lights and he wisely puts the task to others. I need to tell another little story. It is very pertinent. Please bear with me. Nearly half a century ago, I found myself very confused and disoriented (no, I've never used drugs). A brilliant MIT professor took me in hand and really impressed me with the knowledge-reality of quantum mechanics, something totally unknown before, and the knowledge shook me to the roots of my being. I couldn't believe it. I was quite distraught. This can't be. I even went to a couple retreats and novenas in a Catholic Church setting, something that I had permanently left a couple years earlier, trying to find some sort of 'safe-house' to dwell in. That didn't work. I wound up in a Harvard philosophy class on British Empiricism by the head of philosophy, rumored to be half mad, but smart. If this person could not settle my doubts, then who? Here are the routes of modern science, I thought. I sat at the back of the class, just a kid among mostly graduate students, and listened. Near the end of the course, I finally asked a question, a very deep question, something that had been gnawing away through much of the course. Though I do not remember the exact question, it went along the lines of what I now know to be the neti, neti routines of Indian philosophy; what is the cause of the cause of the cause, ad infinitum. The professor chain-smoked, lighting a new cigarette off the old cigarette before doffing it on the nice hardwood floors. I then smoked also, as was the Humphrey Bogart fashion of the day, and I occasionally felt superior because I did not need to light the next cigarette off the old one. I could wait a few minutes. He was brilliant and extremely intense, as if for life or death. I too was intense, this was a matter of most extreme importance, close to life or death importance; there was nothing else more important. I pursued the question, and it bounced back and forth a few rounds, when suddenly he quickly plowed through the random locations of the chair-desks that students were sitting in, to the back of the room, to me, six-inches from my face. I still remember those super intense bloodshot eyes, and he looked deep into me as I similarly looked back. Like this, into each other's soul, with no words being spoken, perhaps for some 30-seconds or more. Though my question was undoubtedly poorly stated, as my vocabulary in such an environment was most limited, yet it caught a deep nerve in the professor. Suddenly, time stood still for a bit and a great sigh of relief passed throughout the body mind system, shivering up and down the spine in delight. Somehow, I knew that the same sort of thing simultaneously happened to the professor. The seriousness of the notion, life or death threatening, somehow was completely relieved and a breath of fresh air was felt. The professor, dazed, pulled back, turned around, and with hands in the air, shouted "You cannot ask such a question", "You cannot ask such a question", over and over again as he trumpeted out of the classroom, for the day. It would be almost another decade before I would be initiated into TM, but only after the turiya experience of TM did I realize that this encounter with the professor was my first and only previous experience of deep heavy turiya. We had literally backed ourselves into turiya, having no other place to go, even though such an experience was here-to-for totally unknown, indeed, even the word 'turiya' was not a faintness in the imagination even. But it's not the talk and the thoughts that brought us directly into the experience, it was the 'life or death' intensity, knowing in the intellect that things are heading that way (for there is no other place to go), even though not having a 'clue' on how to get there and then relating the reality back to the topic at hand. Sakti moved that day, though I would not know what such a word even meant for at least another decade. "When two or more are gathered in my name . . . (Jesus)" Yes, nama-rupa was involved here, though not of a sage or a saint. Rather, all of the neti, neti arguments preceding led directly to dissolution, to brahman. Here, nama-rupa was subtle and subtler, where knowing the direction with fierce intensity, nama-rupa dissolves. The dissolution, in part, was brought about through the fierce staring in each others eyes, down to the core of creation itself where the source of creation momentarily saw the source of creation, and vice versa, reciprocally, each contacting the subtlest fluctuations of brahman itself. It takes two or more to tango. This is the idea and ideal of guru, though seldom seen enacted with a spontaneous healthy sakti flow, where all fear and trembling dissolve away. Most of the time, guru is mistaken to be a nice and mutually comforting telling of stories to each other, keeping words alive in endless circular motion. This is fine and it is well motivated with true intentions, and it is heart warming, but it mostly falls short of the mark of getting into turiya instead of just talking about it. To have effortless turiya available upon demand. That would be great. This is the glory and genius of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and the particular flavors of the Sankara camp of holy tradition peers with its puja connection device. Not a belief, not a hope, and certainly not a religion; rather, just an effortless reality available to anyone at any time, a simple invocation of the natural laws of nature. It is universal science in that it is repeatably, all the time, for anyone, on demand. Turiya is a state that ostensibly resembles sleep, in that there is no-thing around, but the awakened one knows that something very different and extremely pleasing has occurred, something that dispels fear within the mind-body system, and it feels good. Lots of folks talk about it in different ways, quite literally here in advaita with extreme intellectual precision, though hardly a one has experienced it, and if so, rarely, with excruciating work. Like the Christians, the Hindus also feel that one has to work and suffer hard (in different ways) to achieve the Kingdom of Heaven. Not so. jai guru dev, Edmond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote: This > is the glory and genius of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and the particular flavors > of the Sankara camp of holy tradition peers with its puja connection device. Namaste Edmond, It will be great to read your exposition of the concept of puja. That is your views on puja and its practical utility. Thanks Shrinivas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Dear Edji You are obviously an intelligent person with many experiences and are able to seperate issues however you still may be liveing in a dream land of your own makeing. Need to come down to earth and take a look at the damage the glories and genius of MMY and the TM Program have caused. Of course we cant speak with those Meditators and Sidhas who have committed suicide due to not being able to deal with the Kundalini Experience however we can still deal with the emotionally damaged who are still alive and are abandoned by the TM Program as they are off to new money makeing deals to save the world Your mention of the glories and genius of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is more than inappropriate considering all those Meditators Teachers and Governors who have had their lives damaged because the glories and genius of MMY did not see fit to provide a total complete program to them based in Sanatana Dharma that is Hinduism to protect those Anglo physiologies that could not deal with the Kundalini Experience that is the stress of releaseing stress Telling people to repeat something good is happening when they are in the midst of a full blown Kundalini Experience is irresponsible. TM Program is disgusting and needs to teach based in the safety of Puja and Ceremony for the people they are charging $5000 each for and teaching the Siddhi Program in English instead of Hindi as they do in India for what $100 The TM Program is so money hungry they have lost site of Sanatana Dharma and as a result Dharma and Karma will take care of the glories and genius of MMY and the recent King he crowned and the recent course he offered to save the world by teaching 108 people an advanced course in his brand of Enlightenment for $1 million US each Yes the Mantra Initiation is important to learn to transcend however TM is not the only glory and genius to provide this and again they do not teach complete program Perfect example is the recommendations we make at Rudra Centre for the Holy Rudraksa and other Hindu Holy Items needed for Traditional Puja according to the Puranas and Upanasads to Hindu Communities throughout the world and to former and current Meditators Teachers and Governors of the TM movement who are trying to protect themselves from the effects created by the incomplete TM Program taught by the glories and genius of MMY We have found a solution to the emotional problems created in Anglo Physiology by the TM Technique that is taught in an incomplete format that damages because TM does not teach a balanced Knowledge Program that includes Traditional Daily Worship Meditating twice a day is not Tradional Puja and Daily Worship it is Meditating twice a day without the support of Traditional Puja Is great you are intelligent and know how to express yourself and manipulate conversation however at some time you may wish to wake up from your dreaming and look around at the Kundalini Support Groups and TM Controversy sites on the internet that are trying to help those who have fallen Is also good to contact Local Law Enforcement in Fairfield where crime rates are continuing to rise It is extremely inappropriate for MMY and his group of idiot administrators to be crowning his own Kings and printing his own money and trying to take credit for world peace and to be spending time with 108 millionares that dont exist when people in his own organizations are suffereing daily And is extremely inappropriate for you to be attempting to manipulate others thoughts through mis direction in the context of a message by mentioning the genius and glories of a spiritual technique marketing genius whose program is based on Knowledge found in every city in India for thousands of years Will be interesting to see your calm intelligent methodical TM Teacher answer to this and out of respect for the intelligence of Mankind in general please dont ask us to continually repeat something good is happening Since TM claims Adi Shankara as part of their lineage maybe is a good idea if MMY starts acting like he knows something about the life history of this Saint and what he actually taught the Mankind regarding helping those who are suffering and in pain in this world Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum Aum Namo Bhagavate Rudraya Namaha Siva Rudra DharmaDeva Arya edmeasure <edmeasure advaitin <advaitin> Friday, June 14, 2002 6:09 AM Re: RE: White Light In a message dated 6/13/2002 3:22:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dwaite writes: > Without wishing to cause offence to anyone, I am reminded of Swami > Parthasarathy's comments regarding such phenomena. He said that whenever > people talk to him about their experiences of seeing white lights etc. > during meditation or whatever, he always recommends that they visit the > optician! > > Regards, > > Dennis > Well, though I'm not an optician, perhaps I still can qualify for having extensive, in depth contact with most of its surrounding worlds, including the early pioneering work during the 60s about the mechanisms of vision via the Harvard cats and MIT frogs research programs. In addition, I've spent much of my life in optical physics and the measurements of flux that reaches the eyes. And I've had many intimate contacts with ophthalmologists about my own eyes and sight, even specifying my preferred eye glass lens formula in cooperation with optometrists. Yes, I am pretty much an optician, though not licensed. I'm sorry if I have offended some folks, here. I get spontaneously excited (joyous) on this sruti, smriti, and purana talk and sometimes come-on too strong. I think that dear Colette tried to moderate the intensity, but to little avail. However, Swami, above, undoubtedly has no experience about white lights and he wisely puts the task to others. I need to tell another little story. It is very pertinent. Please bear with me. Nearly half a century ago, I found myself very confused and disoriented (no, I've never used drugs). A brilliant MIT professor took me in hand and really impressed me with the knowledge-reality of quantum mechanics, something totally unknown before, and the knowledge shook me to the roots of my being. I couldn't believe it. I was quite distraught. This can't be. I even went to a couple retreats and novenas in a Catholic Church setting, something that I had permanently left a couple years earlier, trying to find some sort of 'safe-house' to dwell in. That didn't work. I wound up in a Harvard philosophy class on British Empiricism by the head of philosophy, rumored to be half mad, but smart. If this person could not settle my doubts, then who? Here are the routes of modern science, I thought. I sat at the back of the class, just a kid among mostly graduate students, and listened. Near the end of the course, I finally asked a question, a very deep question, something that had been gnawing away through much of the course. Though I do not remember the exact question, it went along the lines of what I now know to be the neti, neti routines of Indian philosophy; what is the cause of the cause of the cause, ad infinitum. The professor chain-smoked, lighting a new cigarette off the old cigarette before doffing it on the nice hardwood floors. I then smoked also, as was the Humphrey Bogart fashion of the day, and I occasionally felt superior because I did not need to light the next cigarette off the old one. I could wait a few minutes. He was brilliant and extremely intense, as if for life or death. I too was intense, this was a matter of most extreme importance, close to life or death importance; there was nothing else more important. I pursued the question, and it bounced back and forth a few rounds, when suddenly he quickly plowed through the random locations of the chair-desks that students were sitting in, to the back of the room, to me, six-inches from my face. I still remember those super intense bloodshot eyes, and he looked deep into me as I similarly looked back. Like this, into each other's soul, with no words being spoken, perhaps for some 30-seconds or more. Though my question was undoubtedly poorly stated, as my vocabulary in such an environment was most limited, yet it caught a deep nerve in the professor. Suddenly, time stood still for a bit and a great sigh of relief passed throughout the body mind system, shivering up and down the spine in delight. Somehow, I knew that the same sort of thing simultaneously happened to the professor. The seriousness of the notion, life or death threatening, somehow was completely relieved and a breath of fresh air was felt. The professor, dazed, pulled back, turned around, and with hands in the air, shouted "You cannot ask such a question", "You cannot ask such a question", over and over again as he trumpeted out of the classroom, for the day. It would be almost another decade before I would be initiated into TM, but only after the turiya experience of TM did I realize that this encounter with the professor was my first and only previous experience of deep heavy turiya. We had literally backed ourselves into turiya, having no other place to go, even though such an experience was here-to-for totally unknown, indeed, even the word 'turiya' was not a faintness in the imagination even. But it's not the talk and the thoughts that brought us directly into the experience, it was the 'life or death' intensity, knowing in the intellect that things are heading that way (for there is no other place to go), even though not having a 'clue' on how to get there and then relating the reality back to the topic at hand. Sakti moved that day, though I would not know what such a word even meant for at least another decade. "When two or more are gathered in my name . . . (Jesus)" Yes, nama-rupa was involved here, though not of a sage or a saint. Rather, all of the neti, neti arguments preceding led directly to dissolution, to brahman. Here, nama-rupa was subtle and subtler, where knowing the direction with fierce intensity, nama-rupa dissolves. The dissolution, in part, was brought about through the fierce staring in each others eyes, down to the core of creation itself where the source of creation momentarily saw the source of creation, and vice versa, reciprocally, each contacting the subtlest fluctuations of brahman itself. It takes two or more to tango. This is the idea and ideal of guru, though seldom seen enacted with a spontaneous healthy sakti flow, where all fear and trembling dissolve away. Most of the time, guru is mistaken to be a nice and mutually comforting telling of stories to each other, keeping words alive in endless circular motion. This is fine and it is well motivated with true intentions, and it is heart warming, but it mostly falls short of the mark of getting into turiya instead of just talking about it. To have effortless turiya available upon demand. That would be great. This is the glory and genius of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and the particular flavors of the Sankara camp of holy tradition peers with its puja connection device. Not a belief, not a hope, and certainly not a religion; rather, just an effortless reality available to anyone at any time, a simple invocation of the natural laws of nature. It is universal science in that it is repeatably, all the time, for anyone, on demand. Turiya is a state that ostensibly resembles sleep, in that there is no-thing around, but the awakened one knows that something very different and extremely pleasing has occurred, something that dispels fear within the mind-body system, and it feels good. Lots of folks talk about it in different ways, quite literally here in advaita with extreme intellectual precision, though hardly a one has experienced it, and if so, rarely, with excruciating work. Like the Christians, the Hindus also feel that one has to work and suffer hard (in different ways) to achieve the Kingdom of Heaven. Not so. jai guru dev, Edmond Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Dear List Members and Edmondji if your listening It would be good if I could sit down in same room with Edmond and straighten him out as I read the last part of his message again and somebody needs to tell him the Advaitin Group is not a recruiting grounds for the TM Program Man proves he has no frame of reference or experience when he states Like the Christians the Hindus also feel they have to work hard and suffer to achieve the Kingdom of Heaven There is nothing farther from the Truth. Please dont compare Christians and Hindus as this is dumbest most offensive and inappropriate remarks by person who does not know Hindus and that it is worth throwing him out door along with his bath water Has been said that I am a Hanuman and am proud of this and am knowing at this moment that Lord Hanuman is certainly not pleased with people like this and if I am makeing too much of this then please censor my messages also I am a TM Trained Sidha and I know their programs world wide and I dont appreciate TM Teachers trying to manipulate others and thinking they are more intelligent than the common man because they are not Edmondji you need to rethink why you are on the Advaitin Group Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Auma Aum Namo Bhagavate Rudraya Namaha Siva Rudra DharmaDeva Arya edmeasure <edmeasure advaitin <advaitin> Friday, June 14, 2002 6:09 AM Re: RE: White Light In a message dated 6/13/2002 3:22:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dwaite writes: > Without wishing to cause offence to anyone, I am reminded of Swami > Parthasarathy's comments regarding such phenomena. He said that whenever > people talk to him about their experiences of seeing white lights etc. > during meditation or whatever, he always recommends that they visit the > optician! > > Regards, > > Dennis > Well, though I'm not an optician, perhaps I still can qualify for having extensive, in depth contact with most of its surrounding worlds, including the early pioneering work during the 60s about the mechanisms of vision via the Harvard cats and MIT frogs research programs. In addition, I've spent much of my life in optical physics and the measurements of flux that reaches the eyes. And I've had many intimate contacts with ophthalmologists about my own eyes and sight, even specifying my preferred eye glass lens formula in cooperation with optometrists. Yes, I am pretty much an optician, though not licensed. I'm sorry if I have offended some folks, here. I get spontaneously excited (joyous) on this sruti, smriti, and purana talk and sometimes come-on too strong. I think that dear Colette tried to moderate the intensity, but to little avail. However, Swami, above, undoubtedly has no experience about white lights and he wisely puts the task to others. I need to tell another little story. It is very pertinent. Please bear with me. Nearly half a century ago, I found myself very confused and disoriented (no, I've never used drugs). A brilliant MIT professor took me in hand and really impressed me with the knowledge-reality of quantum mechanics, something totally unknown before, and the knowledge shook me to the roots of my being. I couldn't believe it. I was quite distraught. This can't be. I even went to a couple retreats and novenas in a Catholic Church setting, something that I had permanently left a couple years earlier, trying to find some sort of 'safe-house' to dwell in. That didn't work. I wound up in a Harvard philosophy class on British Empiricism by the head of philosophy, rumored to be half mad, but smart. If this person could not settle my doubts, then who? Here are the routes of modern science, I thought. I sat at the back of the class, just a kid among mostly graduate students, and listened. Near the end of the course, I finally asked a question, a very deep question, something that had been gnawing away through much of the course. Though I do not remember the exact question, it went along the lines of what I now know to be the neti, neti routines of Indian philosophy; what is the cause of the cause of the cause, ad infinitum. The professor chain-smoked, lighting a new cigarette off the old cigarette before doffing it on the nice hardwood floors. I then smoked also, as was the Humphrey Bogart fashion of the day, and I occasionally felt superior because I did not need to light the next cigarette off the old one. I could wait a few minutes. He was brilliant and extremely intense, as if for life or death. I too was intense, this was a matter of most extreme importance, close to life or death importance; there was nothing else more important. I pursued the question, and it bounced back and forth a few rounds, when suddenly he quickly plowed through the random locations of the chair-desks that students were sitting in, to the back of the room, to me, six-inches from my face. I still remember those super intense bloodshot eyes, and he looked deep into me as I similarly looked back. Like this, into each other's soul, with no words being spoken, perhaps for some 30-seconds or more. Though my question was undoubtedly poorly stated, as my vocabulary in such an environment was most limited, yet it caught a deep nerve in the professor. Suddenly, time stood still for a bit and a great sigh of relief passed throughout the body mind system, shivering up and down the spine in delight. Somehow, I knew that the same sort of thing simultaneously happened to the professor. The seriousness of the notion, life or death threatening, somehow was completely relieved and a breath of fresh air was felt. The professor, dazed, pulled back, turned around, and with hands in the air, shouted "You cannot ask such a question", "You cannot ask such a question", over and over again as he trumpeted out of the classroom, for the day. It would be almost another decade before I would be initiated into TM, but only after the turiya experience of TM did I realize that this encounter with the professor was my first and only previous experience of deep heavy turiya. We had literally backed ourselves into turiya, having no other place to go, even though such an experience was here-to-for totally unknown, indeed, even the word 'turiya' was not a faintness in the imagination even. But it's not the talk and the thoughts that brought us directly into the experience, it was the 'life or death' intensity, knowing in the intellect that things are heading that way (for there is no other place to go), even though not having a 'clue' on how to get there and then relating the reality back to the topic at hand. Sakti moved that day, though I would not know what such a word even meant for at least another decade. "When two or more are gathered in my name . . . (Jesus)" Yes, nama-rupa was involved here, though not of a sage or a saint. Rather, all of the neti, neti arguments preceding led directly to dissolution, to brahman. Here, nama-rupa was subtle and subtler, where knowing the direction with fierce intensity, nama-rupa dissolves. The dissolution, in part, was brought about through the fierce staring in each others eyes, down to the core of creation itself where the source of creation momentarily saw the source of creation, and vice versa, reciprocally, each contacting the subtlest fluctuations of brahman itself. It takes two or more to tango. This is the idea and ideal of guru, though seldom seen enacted with a spontaneous healthy sakti flow, where all fear and trembling dissolve away. Most of the time, guru is mistaken to be a nice and mutually comforting telling of stories to each other, keeping words alive in endless circular motion. This is fine and it is well motivated with true intentions, and it is heart warming, but it mostly falls short of the mark of getting into turiya instead of just talking about it. To have effortless turiya available upon demand. That would be great. This is the glory and genius of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and the particular flavors of the Sankara camp of holy tradition peers with its puja connection device. Not a belief, not a hope, and certainly not a religion; rather, just an effortless reality available to anyone at any time, a simple invocation of the natural laws of nature. It is universal science in that it is repeatably, all the time, for anyone, on demand. Turiya is a state that ostensibly resembles sleep, in that there is no-thing around, but the awakened one knows that something very different and extremely pleasing has occurred, something that dispels fear within the mind-body system, and it feels good. Lots of folks talk about it in different ways, quite literally here in advaita with extreme intellectual precision, though hardly a one has experienced it, and if so, rarely, with excruciating work. Like the Christians, the Hindus also feel that one has to work and suffer hard (in different ways) to achieve the Kingdom of Heaven. Not so. jai guru dev, Edmond Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Namaste ShiningLotusji. Yes, I have been listening for quite a while. I did visit the Nader site (Courtesy: SunderHji). The buffoonery there made me question my sanity. The guy looks like Richard Burton in "Camelot" (?) - I mean the movie he co-starred with Peter O'Toole and in which he inherits the British throne. Is this some type of megalomania? Has that guy written a book on the Vedas!? What is happening to the world, Sir? I have always held the opinion that Edmondji's messages (with all respect to his age, wisdom, knowledge and interest in oriental thoughts) are most of the time irrelevant to advaita. Off and on, I have expressed this view at least obliquely in my posts. However, sadly, he seems to be living in a world of his own and untiringly calling out to us to join in! Yes, you are right the advaitin list should not be used to promote TM or MMY. TMjis have ample resources to do that from elsewhere on the net and outside. We are better off without the "white shining lights", para-normal and abnormal! Pranams. Madathil Nair advaitin, "ShiningLotus" <shininglotus@c...> wrote: > Dear List Members and Edmondji if your listening > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Dear Madathilnairji Yes is extremely embarrassing to see what is takeing place with these people and extremely sad to see how they ignore the damaged and concentrate on the money Feel like trying to apologize for MMY actions and at same time knowing is hopeless as am not responsible for what he is doing. Am totally grateful that he taught the teachers who instructed me and they accepted the money for the instruction however they kind of shot themselves in the foot when my Siddhi Teachers taught me to be Boundless because that is exactly what happened at the time of Maha Kumbamela Aum Gum Ganapatayei Namaha Aum Namo Hanumate Rudra Avataraya Prayentra Sarva Karya Siddhi Pradaya Sri Rama Dutaya Swaha Is an insult to Sanatana Dharma and really starts the Agni when they sneak around looking for new money in the many ways they are trying to come up with It is a special time in this world where the students of the last 30 years are now more and more becomeing those who Share the Knowledge and speak publicly about the issues of Spiritual Path and Who will teach the teachers and Who will heal the healers and Who will help others resolve the suffereing caused by incomplete instruction in Spiritual Techniques that causes full blown Kundalini Effects without the proper balanceing that is needed for the Human Neurophysiology This is the time of the Kali Yuga when Goddess Kali sheds her outer dark exterior and shows the world her true form of the Smileing Golden Crystal Goddess that she truly is. Only Hindus will understand this however she is here with me now as I write this. She is right here to the right of my peripherial vision and she is smileing as the Golden Crystal Goddess She Truly Is Aum Krim Klim Kalikayei Namaha Lord Siva and the Shining Ones are all here with us now more and more and is like the Ramayana Balakanda all over again only now seems the power of Lord Rama has multiplied a million times and Mankind is moveing into a different age at this very moment Is an age of Truth and Justice and Sanatana Dharma and India >From the Daily Morning Prayers of a Young Angel in Mumbai Lokaa Samasta Sukhino Bhavantu Sarve Janah Sukhino Bhavantu Samasta San Mangalani Bhavantu OH MY GOD PLEASE KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum Hrim Shrim Klim ParamEshwari Swaha Aum Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum Dhanyawaad aur Pranams to you and Family Mitra DharmaDev Arya madathilnair <madathilnair advaitin <advaitin> Saturday, June 15, 2002 9:41 PM Re: White Light Namaste ShiningLotusji. Yes, I have been listening for quite a while. I did visit the Nader site (Courtesy: SunderHji). The buffoonery there made me question my sanity. The guy looks like Richard Burton in "Camelot" (?) - I mean the movie he co-starred with Peter O'Toole and in which he inherits the British throne. Is this some type of megalomania? Has that guy written a book on the Vedas!? What is happening to the world, Sir? I have always held the opinion that Edmondji's messages (with all respect to his age, wisdom, knowledge and interest in oriental thoughts) are most of the time irrelevant to advaita. Off and on, I have expressed this view at least obliquely in my posts. However, sadly, he seems to be living in a world of his own and untiringly calling out to us to join in! Yes, you are right the advaitin list should not be used to promote TM or MMY. TMjis have ample resources to do that from elsewhere on the net and outside. We are better off without the "white shining lights", para-normal and abnormal! Pranams. Madathil Nair advaitin, "ShiningLotus" <shininglotus@c...> wrote: > Dear List Members and Edmondji if your listening > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Yes, I feel the pain of that small handful of folks who express their pain concerning things apparently tied to TM in some way. Such painful expressions are usually accompanied with deep anger and divisiveness. It need not be that way. In my opinion, much of the problem rests around the notion of 'kundalini', a word that is never heard around the TM organization nor around Rosicrucians for that matter, mostly because of its world-wide negative and false connotations. I personally find that word very offensive and ridden with the terror of avidya, not for its fundamental Sanskrit meaning, but rather for its typical usage in many popular and even learned Indian Swami texts on yoga and related subjects. Somewhere in the writings, early on, a potential guru starts by wanting to drive away students, to the affect, " . . . and one must be very wary of rising kundalini, something that can even kill or at least hurt you badly . . .. one must ONLY do such yoga as discussed herein in context with a competent guru . . . after long and torturous denial and abstinence (a usual and very common practical interpretation of yajñâ)", the implication being, of course, that the Swami speaking is one of those competent gurus. This is avidya rubbish, to set up such fears in the minds of potential students. Oh, there is hardly ever any doubt that the Swami speaking is being sincere and devout, no not at all. He is merely repeating, over and over again, what has been presented to him by his gurus, over and over again. Brainwashing habituation to happily (in distress) pass on more of the avidya stuff. Nor am I picking on the Hindus, for the Catholics and Protestants and Jews have also mastered such an art form, perhaps even extending it with science influences, keeping people away from the holy miraculous shiverings of sakti itself, in all of its purity and unbounded lively freshness. The nature of priests and gurus is often to position themselves between the student and the godhead, ostensibly, as preconceived conspiracy rather than as reflection on the nature of universal law. Long ago, a good TM friend of mine (we were commonly involved in similar esoteric groups along with physics-engineering matters) complained about 'kundalini' pains in reference to TM. I explored and explored with him, patiently for many months, trying to localize the abstractions being presented. The more we talked, the more I realized his extremely deep, long term connection with Theosophy, who do indeed value the scare tactics with 'kundalini'. It was becoming plain in my mind, that even in such a case as with this extremely intelligent friend of mine, the mind was being influenced by what was felt to be a necessary condition to having achieved some non-trivial degree 'enlightenment', of experience of the subtle and all that. In short, we again ***must suffer*** to experience the Kingdom of Heaven. This avidya nonsense reeks all over and grabs all of us. For me, it was the Catholic Church that long had tight reigns over any possibility of progressing. There is no doubt that TM is not a religion, and many severe steps are taken to maintain such a position. Folks, all folks, are told this early on. If one is religious in any particular religion, then TM enhances THAT religious feeling/sector. TM does not get into speculations, certainly not most of the speculations that I am getting into here. TM does teach that very profound, yes, earth rattling, technique, which is much different and more subtle than one normally experiences. This is fact and no apology wants to be made for having this sublime reality available to anyone. Relative to "unstressing" the affectation of long term heavy meditation routines that all teachers have gone through and some siddhas have touched upon, yes there are occasional less than the most pleasant experiences, the throwing off of stress, sometimes causing a bit of uneasiness for a time. And it does take a good six months to reacclimatize fully the usual normal environmental habitat. Much the same as moving from Military Life to Civilian Live or from College Life to Working Life. A new life style where adjustments need be made. It is difficult, perhaps impossible, to isolate the never ending innumerable factors that lead to individual concerns with pain and blame, but science and industry have long found ways to express and deal with such things. For instance, consider the problem of trying to track the motions the air particles in a box of air, to understand the interrelationships between the particles. Such a problem is impossible, as there are much more than some trillion trillion particles in the box. Physics eventually managed to deal with the problem without ever having to consider any particular individual particle, and called it thermodynamics, something that complete specified the Steam Engine and thereby changed the lives of all people on earth. The Statistical Mechanics people came around and solved the very same problems again by considering the behavior of large aggregates of particles, where other types of detailed information developed about the particles themselves. So too in modern day assessments of responses from large groups of people. An example: A big Ford Utility Van goes happily trailing down a long Texas highway in the middle of a hot summer. The Van is overloaded, filled to the brim with heavy oil drilling tools and other personal things. It travels near or at double the speed limit for long periods as the driver becomes fatigued. Suddenly a tire blows out, and the Van tumbles over, fortunately leaving the driver unhurt. The driver then sues Ford Motor for delinquency in product safety and any other charges that a good lawyer will dream up. The case often settles of a few million dollars to the driver. End of case. Ford, and everyone else, uses Mathematical Statistics "normal distribution curve", that famous curve where virtually any defined event containing many participants will lie under such a curve, i.e., as in grading, most of the class is 'average' with a few dunce types and a couple of genius types at each end of the curve. So similarly, regardless of design criteria and what is done and what is not done, it is inevitable that Ford Motors (or any one else) will get hit with some number of lawsuits, for some reason or other, someplace. Out of a millions of cars, maybe one or ten or a hundred, whatever the number. (Interestingly, in pharmaceuticals the reference unit is deaths, i.e., so many deaths per million will occur with the introduction of any new pill, that is a law of life. If the death rate increases some certain maximum number, a red flag rises and all company forces take extreme reaction.) There are millions and millions of TM folks now spread over the world. I think the pharmaceuticals would be overjoyed to have such a low rate of "disasters" as such a small handful of folks out of such huge numbers. (I don't know what the numbers are but suspect they are in the several dozens, at most, and even here, the so called 'severe' cases may be countable on one's fingers.) Again, this is not saying that true suffering is not occurring, and I feel bad about that. What the 'cause' of suffering may be is something again. I surely wish that those who are suffering so badly would find a good lawyer (easy to find in a few minutes around USA) and to please sue the TM movement for whatever claims might be (can be) (can be conjured to be) found. If you have been hurt by TM, you are entitled to compensation. This way the party that has been allegedly hurt will find compensation and get on with his/her life, rather than to maintain such long term hatred, anger, and revenge to try to wipe out TM. It sometimes almost seems like a bunch of less than desi rable saksharas have taken over and are in control of the situation. There are innumerable solutions here, and hardly a soul in the TM movement has not had contact with such experiences, but I do understand that solutions are hard to come by as long as great doses of anger and hatred are still being released. Peace my friends, really. jai guru dev, Edmond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 In a message dated 6/17/2002 5:21:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shininglotus writes: > Dear Edmondji > > Yes Aum Shanti Aum to you also You live off of your anger and hate. You might consider a move to Trancenet where you will find yourself at home. I shall no longer pursue this topic and I shall be away. Good night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Dear Edmondji Yes Aum Shanti Aum to you also There has been so much damage to individuals and communities that Individuals, State Government and Countries have already sued the TM Organization. Cases are already on the internet Am wondering why am haveing to tell you all this. How many years did you spend at Harvard and becomeing a Teacher that you dont refer to what has happened already. Arent you aware of the change that has been takeing place worldwide specific to the TMO and the Legal Systems of more than one country Please investigate further from Trancenet.com to TM Controversy sites to the American East Coast Educational System Case to the Suicide of the Siddha who placed himself on the train tracks at Fairfield Shakti Kundalini is nothing to be afraid of if approached in a respectful manner however if you teach a person Mantra Science that releases and accelerates the Kundalini Flow you need to teach how to deal with the everyday changes in the relative field or the program is causeing more problem than good. Why in the world would a teacher give a person a loaded gun and not give him operateing instructions specific to Yes you are now initiated and Please add this Hindu Puja to your Meditation Program so you dont make your Neurophysiological self the target of the Kundalini when you pull the trigger each day The answers for resolution to pacify the Kundalini Experience and benefit moment by moment from this experience are in The Siva Purana The Padma Purana The Srimaddevibhagavat The RudraksaJabalopanisad The Mantramaharnava The BrihajJabalopanisad and MahaKala Samhita to name only a few There are proactive solutions to helping people that will leave NOT ONE PERSON SUFFERING and suing the TM Organization is not the answer. They simply move to another country and continue operations The answer is in understanding what is takeing place and discovering the solutions and showing others how to deal with the problem to destroy suffereing and pain and sin worldwide Aum Namo Bhagavate Rudraya Namaha One of the projects that has manifested for us is our work to clean up the mess the TMO is leaveing worldwide and we are haveing great success with this. There are other projects we are working on with the direction of Lord Siva and the Shining Ones and these are all being successful also In addition we are really not doing all this. This Knowledge is flowing through from Lord Siva and Goddess Saraswati and Goddess MahaLakshmi and Protected by Shield of Goddess Durga and Goddess Kali and all the others who are determined to see Happiness reign on this planet Sri Krishna Das has written something totally fundamental to this entire conversation Devotee How do I find God Neem Karoli Baba " Serve People " Devotee How can I raise Kundalini Neem Karoli Baba " Feed People " Ayurveda shows Mankind needs to be fed a complete balanced diet or there will be major problems Spiritual Path also shows Mankind needs to be fed a complete balanced diet of Knowledge or there will be major problems Sanatana Dharma and Karma are also working to balance what the TMO Administration and Marketing has caused so we are all working together to resolve this problem Dhanyawaad aur Pranams to you and Family Rudra Centre India and America S R DharmaDeva Arya edmeasure <edmeasure advaitin <advaitin> Monday, June 17, 2002 7:14 AM Re: Re: White Light Yes, I feel the pain of that small handful of folks who express their pain concerning things apparently tied to TM in some way. Such painful expressions are usually accompanied with deep anger and divisiveness. It need not be that way. In my opinion, much of the problem rests around the notion of 'kundalini', a word that is never heard around the TM organization nor around Rosicrucians for that matter, mostly because of its world-wide negative and false connotations. I personally find that word very offensive and ridden with the terror of avidya, not for its fundamental Sanskrit meaning, but rather for its typical usage in many popular and even learned Indian Swami texts on yoga and related subjects. Somewhere in the writings, early on, a potential guru starts by wanting to drive away students, to the affect, " . . . and one must be very wary of rising kundalini, something that can even kill or at least hurt you badly . .. . one must ONLY do such yoga as discussed herein in context with a competent guru . . . after long and torturous denial and abstinence (a usual and very common practical interpretation of yajñâ)", the implication being, of course, that the Swami speaking is one of those competent gurus. This is avidya rubbish, to set up such fears in the minds of potential students. Oh, there is hardly ever any doubt that the Swami speaking is being sincere and devout, no not at all. He is merely repeating, over and over again, what has been presented to him by his gurus, over and over again. Brainwashing habituation to happily (in distress) pass on more of the avidya stuff. Nor am I picking on the Hindus, for the Catholics and Protestants and Jews have also mastered such an art form, perhaps even extending it with science influences, keeping people away from the holy miraculous shiverings of sakti itself, in all of its purity and unbounded lively freshness. The nature of priests and gurus is often to position themselves between the student and the godhead, ostensibly, as preconceived conspiracy rather than as reflection on the nature of universal law. Long ago, a good TM friend of mine (we were commonly involved in similar esoteric groups along with physics-engineering matters) complained about 'kundalini' pains in reference to TM. I explored and explored with him, patiently for many months, trying to localize the abstractions being presented. The more we talked, the more I realized his extremely deep, long term connection with Theosophy, who do indeed value the scare tactics with 'kundalini'. It was becoming plain in my mind, that even in such a case as with this extremely intelligent friend of mine, the mind was being influenced by what was felt to be a necessary condition to having achieved some non-trivial degree 'enlightenment', of experience of the subtle and all that. In short, we again ***must suffer*** to experience the Kingdom of Heaven. This avidya nonsense reeks all over and grabs all of us. For me, it was the Catholic Church that long had tight reigns over any possibility of progressing. There is no doubt that TM is not a religion, and many severe steps are taken to maintain such a position. Folks, all folks, are told this early on. If one is religious in any particular religion, then TM enhances THAT religious feeling/sector. TM does not get into speculations, certainly not most of the speculations that I am getting into here. TM does teach that very profound, yes, earth rattling, technique, which is much different and more subtle than one normally experiences. This is fact and no apology wants to be made for having this sublime reality available to anyone. Relative to "unstressing" the affectation of long term heavy meditation routines that all teachers have gone through and some siddhas have touched upon, yes there are occasional less than the most pleasant experiences, the throwing off of stress, sometimes causing a bit of uneasiness for a time. And it does take a good six months to reacclimatize fully the usual normal environmental habitat. Much the same as moving from Military Life to Civilian Live or from College Life to Working Life. A new life style where adjustments need be made. It is difficult, perhaps impossible, to isolate the never ending innumerable factors that lead to individual concerns with pain and blame, but science and industry have long found ways to express and deal with such things. For instance, consider the problem of trying to track the motions the air particles in a box of air, to understand the interrelationships between the particles. Such a problem is impossible, as there are much more than some trillion trillion particles in the box. Physics eventually managed to deal with the problem without ever having to consider any particular individual particle, and called it thermodynamics, something that complete specified the Steam Engine and thereby changed the lives of all people on earth. The Statistical Mechanics people came around and solved the very same problems again by considering the behavior of large aggregates of particles, where other types of detailed information developed about the particles themselves. So too in modern day assessments of responses from large groups of people. An example: A big Ford Utility Van goes happily trailing down a long Texas highway in the middle of a hot summer. The Van is overloaded, filled to the brim with heavy oil drilling tools and other personal things. It travels near or at double the speed limit for long periods as the driver becomes fatigued. Suddenly a tire blows out, and the Van tumbles over, fortunately leaving the driver unhurt. The driver then sues Ford Motor for delinquency in product safety and any other charges that a good lawyer will dream up. The case often settles of a few million dollars to the driver. End of case. Ford, and everyone else, uses Mathematical Statistics "normal distribution curve", that famous curve where virtually any defined event containing many participants will lie under such a curve, i.e., as in grading, most of the class is 'average' with a few dunce types and a couple of genius types at each end of the curve. So similarly, regardless of design criteria and what is done and what is not done, it is inevitable that Ford Motors (or any one else) will get hit with some number of lawsuits, for some reason or other, someplace. Out of a millions of cars, maybe one or ten or a hundred, whatever the number. (Interestingly, in pharmaceuticals the reference unit is deaths, i.e., so many deaths per million will occur with the introduction of any new pill, that is a law of life. If the death rate increases some certain maximum number, a red flag rises and all company forces take extreme reaction.) There are millions and millions of TM folks now spread over the world. I think the pharmaceuticals would be overjoyed to have such a low rate of "disasters" as such a small handful of folks out of such huge numbers. (I don't know what the numbers are but suspect they are in the several dozens, at most, and even here, the so called 'severe' cases may be countable on one's fingers.) Again, this is not saying that true suffering is not occurring, and I feel bad about that. What the 'cause' of suffering may be is something again. I surely wish that those who are suffering so badly would find a good lawyer (easy to find in a few minutes around USA) and to please sue the TM movement for whatever claims might be (can be) (can be conjured to be) found. If you have been hurt by TM, you are entitled to compensation. This way the party that has been allegedly hurt will find compensation and get on with his/her life, rather than to maintain such long term hatred, anger, and revenge to try to wipe out TM. It sometimes almost seems like a bunch of less than desi rable saksharas have taken over and are in control of the situation. There are innumerable solutions here, and hardly a soul in the TM movement has not had contact with such experiences, but I do understand that solutions are hard to come by as long as great doses of anger and hatred are still being released. Peace my friends, really. jai guru dev, Edmond Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 Dear Edji Goodness was it the Harvard comment or the fact that more people out there know about you and what you are doing than you thought. Took about an hour on the internet to find someone who has documented your behaviour and knows of your activities Extremely good decision on your part May Lord Siva Light Your Way Aum Sharavana Bhavaya Namaha S R DharmaDeva Arya edmeasure <edmeasure advaitin <advaitin> Monday, June 17, 2002 4:36 PM Re: Re: White Light In a message dated 6/17/2002 5:21:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shininglotus writes: > Dear Edmondji > > Yes Aum Shanti Aum to you also You live off of your anger and hate. You might consider a move to Trancenet where you will find yourself at home. I shall no longer pursue this topic and I shall be away. Good night. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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