Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya Namaste, I asked earlier about self-enquiry. This is the first method I mentioned and, Greg, i believe it was, mentioned that this was a wrong interpretation. So, you see why I'm confused. Conflicting interpretations. Sorry but I just need all of this clairified. Namo Ramana Prem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Friends Looks like Sri Ramana was either misquoted or was incorrect in his thinking when he consistanly maintained that most other practices were ineffective. There are many traditional yoga practices that do not include the practice of the subject concentrateing on an object so you people are really talking in circles here and if you have 3 more chapters of this intelectual program we need an interpreter for the new Sri Ramana Advaitin Group. Why in the world am I the only one speaking up here Why in the world would Sri Ramana intentionally make comments to eliminate the bulk of Hindu Spiritual Practice. This is not the way the Vedic Knowledge has been established Have listened for many days and would really like to hear one of you actually come up with an original thought instead of continually intellectually cerebralizeing the quotes of someone else Anyone can repeat quotes from other people till the end of time So my question here is do any of you actually meditate in silence and experience what you are continually talking about or is this simply a quote fest with pages and pages of attention getting material till the subject falls asleep If you decide to answer could you please keep your answer to a few short paragraphs that us simple folk who only meditate could understand as it would be greatly appreciated Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Mitra DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica MillionPaths <MillionPaths>; NamoRamana <NamoRamana> Cc: Advaitin <advaitin> Monday, July 01, 2002 9:20 PM Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman SELF-ENQUIRY / THEORY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From : Be As You Are The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi edited by David Godman ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It will be remembered that in the chapter of Self-awareness and Self-ignorance Sri Ramana maintained that Self-realisation could be brought about merely by giving up the idea that there is an individual self, which functions through the body and the mind. A few of his advanced devotees were able to do this quickly and easily, but the others found it virtually impossible to discard the ingrained habits of a lifetime without undertaking some form of spiritual practice. Sri Ramana sympathised with their predicament and whenever he was asked to prescribe a spiritual practice which would facilitate Self-awareness he would recommend a technique he called self-enquiry. This practice was the cornerstone of his practical philosophy and the next three chapters will be devoted to a detailed presentation of all its aspects. Before embarking on a description of the technique itself it will be necessary to explain Sri Ramana's views on the nature of the mind since the aim of self-enquiry is to discover by direct experience, that the mind is non-existent. According to Sri Ramana, every conscious activity of the mind or body revolves around the tacit assumption that there is an 'I' who is doing something. The common factor in 'I think', 'I remember','I am acting', is the 'I' who assumes that it is responsible for all these activities. Sri Ramana called this common factor the 'I'-thought [aham-vritti]. Literally aham-vritti means "mental modification of 'I' ". The Self or real 'I' never imagines that it is doing or thinking anything; the 'I' that imagines all this is a mental fiction and so it is called a mental modification of the Self. Since this is a rather cumbersome translation of aham-vritti it is usually translated as 'I'-thought. Sri Ramana upheld the view that the notion of individuality is only the 'I'-thought manifesting itself in different ways. Instead of regarding the different activities of the mind [such as ego, intellect and memory] as separate functions he preferred to view them all as different forms of the 'I'-thought. Since he equated individuality with the mind and the mind with the 'I'-thought it follows that the disappearance of the sense of individuality [i.e. Self-realisation] implies the disappearance of both the mind and the 'I'-thought. This is confirmed by his frequent statements to the effect that after Self-realisation there is no thinker of thoughts, no performer of actions and no awareness of individual existence. Since he upheld the notion that the Self is the only existing reality he regarded the 'I'-thought as a mistaken assumption which has no real existence of its own. He explained its appearance by saying that it can only appear to exist by identifying with an object. When the thoughts arise the 'I'-thought claims ownership of them- 'I think', 'I believe', 'I want', 'I am acting' - but there is no separate 'I'-thought that exists independently of the objects that it is identifying with. It only appears to exist as a real continuous entity because of the incessant flow of identification which are continually taking place. Almost all of these identifications can be traced back to an initial assumption that the 'I' is limited to the body, either as an owner-occupant or co-extensive with its physical form. This 'I am the body' idea is the primary source of all subsequent wrong identifications and its dissolution is the principal aim of self-enquiry. Sri Ramana maintained that this tendency towards self-limiting identifications could be checked by trying to separate the subject 'I' from the objects of thought which it identified with. Since the individual 'I'-thought cannot exist without an object, if attention is focused on the subjective feeling of 'I' or 'I am' with such intensity that the thoughts 'I am this' or 'I am that' do not arise, then the individual 'I' will be unable to connect with objects. If this awareness of 'I' is sustained, the individual 'I' [the 'I'-thought] will disappear and in its place there will be a direct experience of the Self. This constant attention to the inner awareness of 'I' or 'I am' was called self-enquiry [vichara] by Sri Ramana and he constantly recommended it as the most efficient and direct way of discovering the unreality of the 'I'-thought. In Sri Ramana's terminology the 'I'-thought rises from the Self or the Heart and subsides back into the Self when its tendency to identify itself with thought objects ceases. Because of this he often tailored his advice to conform to this image of a rising and subsiding 'I'. He might say 'trace the "I"-thought back to its source', or 'find out where the "I" rises from', but the implication was always the same. Whatever the language used he was advising his devotees to maintain awareness of the 'I'-thought until it dissolved in the source from which it came. He sometimes mentioned that thinking or repeating 'I' mentally would also lead one in the right direction but it is important to note that this is only a preliminary stage of the practice. The repetition of 'I' still involves a subject (the 'I'-thought) having a perception of an object [the thoughts 'I, I'] and while such duality exists the 'I'-thought will continue to thrive. It only finally disappears when the perception of all objects, both physical and mental ceases. This is not brought about by being aware of an 'I', but only by being the 'I'. This stage of experiencing the subject rather than being aware of an object is the culminating phase of self-enquiry. This important distinction is the key element which distinguishes self-enquiry from nearly all other spiritual practices and it explains why Sri Ramana consistently maintained that most other practices were ineffective. He often pointed out that traditional meditations and yoga practices necessitated the existence of a subject who meditates on an object and he would usually add that such a relationship sustained the 'I'-thought instead of eliminating it. In his view such practices may effectively quieten the mind, and they may even produce blissful experiences, but they will never culminate in Self-realisation because the 'I'-thought is not being isolated and deprived of its identity. The conversations which comprise this chapter mostly deal with Sri Ramana's views on the theoretical background of self-enquiry. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya Namaste, You asked: So my question here is do any of you actually meditate in silence and experience what you are continually talking about or is this simply a quote fest with pages and pages of attention getting material till the subject falls asleep Yes I've definitely experienced some of this before, for instance, once having the experience of self for a short moments, tries to meditate at least an hour or two every day...don't see any point in the practice if you just read and do no practice...that's kind of why it's called a practice... Namo Ramana Prem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Friends Lets make an effort to go back to speaking about the life of Adi Shankara and his teachings Please Maybe we could talk a little about the beginning of Bhaja Govindam that is reflected in an article by C Rajagopalachari in the latest edition of the U S India Post Adi Sankara it is said was walking along a street in Varanasi. He heard the sound of grammatical rules being recited by an old scholar. Takeing pity on the scholar he went up to him and advised him not to waste his time on grammer at his age but to turn his mind to God in worship and adoration. The hymn Bhaja Govindam was composed on this occasion Sri Sankara has packed into the Bhaja Givindam song the substance of all Vedanta and set the oneness of gyana and bhakti to melodious music Our people have heard the Bhaja Govindam song and they know it. Snatches of it are sung now and then. Yet it is good to read it in full as a whole poem. The first verse says Lift up the Heart to Govinda, lift the heart up to Govinda Lift the heart up to Govinda, O foolish mind ! When thou art at deaths door The rules of grammer which you are trying to master will be of no avail The Goddess of Learning Herself speaks through Sankara beloved of her. Will the sciences that you have learnt, the books that you have read and the skills that you have acquired, will these stand by you when you are at deaths door ? No they will not This first stanza is a warning relateing to the mistake of the intellect and the arrogance of knowledge Chakravarti Rajagopalachari the first Indian Governor General of India was a great patriot, stute politician and incisive thinker Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum Aum Eim Klim Saraswatyei Swaha Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Mitra DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica MillionPaths <MillionPaths>; NamoRamana <NamoRamana> Cc: Advaitin <advaitin> Monday, July 01, 2002 9:20 PM Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman SELF-ENQUIRY / THEORY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From : Be As You Are The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi edited by David Godman ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It will be remembered that in the chapter of Self-awareness and Self-ignorance Sri Ramana maintained that Self-realisation could be brought about merely by giving up the idea that there is an individual self, which functions through the body and the mind. A few of his advanced devotees were able to do this quickly and easily, but the others found it virtually impossible to discard the ingrained habits of a lifetime without undertaking some form of spiritual practice. Sri Ramana sympathised with their predicament and whenever he was asked to prescribe a spiritual practice which would facilitate Self-awareness he would recommend a technique he called self-enquiry. This practice was the cornerstone of his practical philosophy and the next three chapters will be devoted to a detailed presentation of all its aspects. Before embarking on a description of the technique itself it will be necessary to explain Sri Ramana's views on the nature of the mind since the aim of self-enquiry is to discover by direct experience, that the mind is non-existent. According to Sri Ramana, every conscious activity of the mind or body revolves around the tacit assumption that there is an 'I' who is doing something. The common factor in 'I think', 'I remember','I am acting', is the 'I' who assumes that it is responsible for all these activities. Sri Ramana called this common factor the 'I'-thought [aham-vritti]. Literally aham-vritti means "mental modification of 'I' ". The Self or real 'I' never imagines that it is doing or thinking anything; the 'I' that imagines all this is a mental fiction and so it is called a mental modification of the Self. Since this is a rather cumbersome translation of aham-vritti it is usually translated as 'I'-thought. Sri Ramana upheld the view that the notion of individuality is only the 'I'-thought manifesting itself in different ways. Instead of regarding the different activities of the mind [such as ego, intellect and memory] as separate functions he preferred to view them all as different forms of the 'I'-thought. Since he equated individuality with the mind and the mind with the 'I'-thought it follows that the disappearance of the sense of individuality [i.e. Self-realisation] implies the disappearance of both the mind and the 'I'-thought. This is confirmed by his frequent statements to the effect that after Self-realisation there is no thinker of thoughts, no performer of actions and no awareness of individual existence. Since he upheld the notion that the Self is the only existing reality he regarded the 'I'-thought as a mistaken assumption which has no real existence of its own. He explained its appearance by saying that it can only appear to exist by identifying with an object. When the thoughts arise the 'I'-thought claims ownership of them- 'I think', 'I believe', 'I want', 'I am acting' - but there is no separate 'I'-thought that exists independently of the objects that it is identifying with. It only appears to exist as a real continuous entity because of the incessant flow of identification which are continually taking place. Almost all of these identifications can be traced back to an initial assumption that the 'I' is limited to the body, either as an owner-occupant or co-extensive with its physical form. This 'I am the body' idea is the primary source of all subsequent wrong identifications and its dissolution is the principal aim of self-enquiry. Sri Ramana maintained that this tendency towards self-limiting identifications could be checked by trying to separate the subject 'I' from the objects of thought which it identified with. Since the individual 'I'-thought cannot exist without an object, if attention is focused on the subjective feeling of 'I' or 'I am' with such intensity that the thoughts 'I am this' or 'I am that' do not arise, then the individual 'I' will be unable to connect with objects. If this awareness of 'I' is sustained, the individual 'I' [the 'I'-thought] will disappear and in its place there will be a direct experience of the Self. This constant attention to the inner awareness of 'I' or 'I am' was called self-enquiry [vichara] by Sri Ramana and he constantly recommended it as the most efficient and direct way of discovering the unreality of the 'I'-thought. In Sri Ramana's terminology the 'I'-thought rises from the Self or the Heart and subsides back into the Self when its tendency to identify itself with thought objects ceases. Because of this he often tailored his advice to conform to this image of a rising and subsiding 'I'. He might say 'trace the "I"-thought back to its source', or 'find out where the "I" rises from', but the implication was always the same. Whatever the language used he was advising his devotees to maintain awareness of the 'I'-thought until it dissolved in the source from which it came. He sometimes mentioned that thinking or repeating 'I' mentally would also lead one in the right direction but it is important to note that this is only a preliminary stage of the practice. The repetition of 'I' still involves a subject (the 'I'-thought) having a perception of an object [the thoughts 'I, I'] and while such duality exists the 'I'-thought will continue to thrive. It only finally disappears when the perception of all objects, both physical and mental ceases. This is not brought about by being aware of an 'I', but only by being the 'I'. This stage of experiencing the subject rather than being aware of an object is the culminating phase of self-enquiry. This important distinction is the key element which distinguishes self-enquiry from nearly all other spiritual practices and it explains why Sri Ramana consistently maintained that most other practices were ineffective. He often pointed out that traditional meditations and yoga practices necessitated the existence of a subject who meditates on an object and he would usually add that such a relationship sustained the 'I'-thought instead of eliminating it. In his view such practices may effectively quieten the mind, and they may even produce blissful experiences, but they will never culminate in Self-realisation because the 'I'-thought is not being isolated and deprived of its identity. The conversations which comprise this chapter mostly deal with Sri Ramana's views on the theoretical background of self-enquiry. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Freinds Does anyone know why the pictures of Adi Sankara show him to be wearing the Holy Rudraksa Beads in Neck Malas and what looks like Sphatik Crystal also Pranams DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica MillionPaths <MillionPaths>; NamoRamana <NamoRamana> Cc: Advaitin <advaitin> Monday, July 01, 2002 9:20 PM Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman SELF-ENQUIRY / THEORY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From : Be As You Are The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi edited by David Godman ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It will be remembered that in the chapter of Self-awareness and Self-ignorance Sri Ramana maintained that Self-realisation could be brought about merely by giving up the idea that there is an individual self, which functions through the body and the mind. A few of his advanced devotees were able to do this quickly and easily, but the others found it virtually impossible to discard the ingrained habits of a lifetime without undertaking some form of spiritual practice. Sri Ramana sympathised with their predicament and whenever he was asked to prescribe a spiritual practice which would facilitate Self-awareness he would recommend a technique he called self-enquiry. This practice was the cornerstone of his practical philosophy and the next three chapters will be devoted to a detailed presentation of all its aspects. Before embarking on a description of the technique itself it will be necessary to explain Sri Ramana's views on the nature of the mind since the aim of self-enquiry is to discover by direct experience, that the mind is non-existent. According to Sri Ramana, every conscious activity of the mind or body revolves around the tacit assumption that there is an 'I' who is doing something. The common factor in 'I think', 'I remember','I am acting', is the 'I' who assumes that it is responsible for all these activities. Sri Ramana called this common factor the 'I'-thought [aham-vritti]. Literally aham-vritti means "mental modification of 'I' ". The Self or real 'I' never imagines that it is doing or thinking anything; the 'I' that imagines all this is a mental fiction and so it is called a mental modification of the Self. Since this is a rather cumbersome translation of aham-vritti it is usually translated as 'I'-thought. Sri Ramana upheld the view that the notion of individuality is only the 'I'-thought manifesting itself in different ways. Instead of regarding the different activities of the mind [such as ego, intellect and memory] as separate functions he preferred to view them all as different forms of the 'I'-thought. Since he equated individuality with the mind and the mind with the 'I'-thought it follows that the disappearance of the sense of individuality [i.e. Self-realisation] implies the disappearance of both the mind and the 'I'-thought. This is confirmed by his frequent statements to the effect that after Self-realisation there is no thinker of thoughts, no performer of actions and no awareness of individual existence. Since he upheld the notion that the Self is the only existing reality he regarded the 'I'-thought as a mistaken assumption which has no real existence of its own. He explained its appearance by saying that it can only appear to exist by identifying with an object. When the thoughts arise the 'I'-thought claims ownership of them- 'I think', 'I believe', 'I want', 'I am acting' - but there is no separate 'I'-thought that exists independently of the objects that it is identifying with. It only appears to exist as a real continuous entity because of the incessant flow of identification which are continually taking place. Almost all of these identifications can be traced back to an initial assumption that the 'I' is limited to the body, either as an owner-occupant or co-extensive with its physical form. This 'I am the body' idea is the primary source of all subsequent wrong identifications and its dissolution is the principal aim of self-enquiry. Sri Ramana maintained that this tendency towards self-limiting identifications could be checked by trying to separate the subject 'I' from the objects of thought which it identified with. Since the individual 'I'-thought cannot exist without an object, if attention is focused on the subjective feeling of 'I' or 'I am' with such intensity that the thoughts 'I am this' or 'I am that' do not arise, then the individual 'I' will be unable to connect with objects. If this awareness of 'I' is sustained, the individual 'I' [the 'I'-thought] will disappear and in its place there will be a direct experience of the Self. This constant attention to the inner awareness of 'I' or 'I am' was called self-enquiry [vichara] by Sri Ramana and he constantly recommended it as the most efficient and direct way of discovering the unreality of the 'I'-thought. In Sri Ramana's terminology the 'I'-thought rises from the Self or the Heart and subsides back into the Self when its tendency to identify itself with thought objects ceases. Because of this he often tailored his advice to conform to this image of a rising and subsiding 'I'. He might say 'trace the "I"-thought back to its source', or 'find out where the "I" rises from', but the implication was always the same. Whatever the language used he was advising his devotees to maintain awareness of the 'I'-thought until it dissolved in the source from which it came. He sometimes mentioned that thinking or repeating 'I' mentally would also lead one in the right direction but it is important to note that this is only a preliminary stage of the practice. The repetition of 'I' still involves a subject (the 'I'-thought) having a perception of an object [the thoughts 'I, I'] and while such duality exists the 'I'-thought will continue to thrive. It only finally disappears when the perception of all objects, both physical and mental ceases. This is not brought about by being aware of an 'I', but only by being the 'I'. This stage of experiencing the subject rather than being aware of an object is the culminating phase of self-enquiry. This important distinction is the key element which distinguishes self-enquiry from nearly all other spiritual practices and it explains why Sri Ramana consistently maintained that most other practices were ineffective. He often pointed out that traditional meditations and yoga practices necessitated the existence of a subject who meditates on an object and he would usually add that such a relationship sustained the 'I'-thought instead of eliminating it. In his view such practices may effectively quieten the mind, and they may even produce blissful experiences, but they will never culminate in Self-realisation because the 'I'-thought is not being isolated and deprived of its identity. The conversations which comprise this chapter mostly deal with Sri Ramana's views on the theoretical background of self-enquiry. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Friends Please let me add to the quote fest here with remarks from a book titled Our Spiritual Heritage by Lynn D. Napper Adi Sankaras Advaita Vedanta says The Absolute is real. All else is unreal The Atman that is your real self is the Absolute Now in view of that philosophy how do we attain enlightenment Certainly saying the Absolute is the only reality does not change your world. Even believing it with all your heart will not result in any significant change. It must be a living reality If it is not now a living reality how could it ever become one since Advaita states that the Absolute is without beginning. It is eternal How could it begin to be real for anyone when it always has been real and to make things even less clear if I and the Absolute are the same why is all this a mystery in the first place Adi Sankaras answer to this is that maya the power of illusion makes a thing appear real when the only reality is the underlying Brahman. A man dreaming believes all that he experiences in his dream is real but upon awakening discovers all was an illusion. Like that the state of enlightenment is a state in which the experiences of the wakeing state are seen to be nothing more than an illusion. The wakeing state is just a higher form of dream The ultimate reality is Brahman and that is found by the Native in the silence of Samadhi in Meditation Everything you see is Brahman. Everything you percieve is Brahman. The whole Universe is Brahman. And YOU are Brahman In your dream the underlying reality is YOU. You are dreaming that is you are creating the dream and you are acting in it and you are also percieiving the dream. You are also creating the illusion that you are separate from other pople and objects in you dream The reality is that without you there would be no dream Universe YOU are the underlying reality in your dream and a higher you the Atman is the underlying reality of this Universe When the Truth was explained in this manner to Vartikakar all doubts were destroyed by the Light of Sankaras Teachings and he prostrated himself before the master and became a devoted desciple Dhanyawaad aur Pranams DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica MillionPaths <MillionPaths>; NamoRamana <NamoRamana> Cc: Advaitin <advaitin> Monday, July 01, 2002 9:20 PM Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman SELF-ENQUIRY / THEORY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From : Be As You Are The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi edited by David Godman ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It will be remembered that in the chapter of Self-awareness and Self-ignorance Sri Ramana maintained that Self-realisation could be brought about merely by giving up the idea that there is an individual self, which functions through the body and the mind. A few of his advanced devotees were able to do this quickly and easily, but the others found it virtually impossible to discard the ingrained habits of a lifetime without undertaking some form of spiritual practice. Sri Ramana sympathised with their predicament and whenever he was asked to prescribe a spiritual practice which would facilitate Self-awareness he would recommend a technique he called self-enquiry. This practice was the cornerstone of his practical philosophy and the next three chapters will be devoted to a detailed presentation of all its aspects. Before embarking on a description of the technique itself it will be necessary to explain Sri Ramana's views on the nature of the mind since the aim of self-enquiry is to discover by direct experience, that the mind is non-existent. According to Sri Ramana, every conscious activity of the mind or body revolves around the tacit assumption that there is an 'I' who is doing something. The common factor in 'I think', 'I remember','I am acting', is the 'I' who assumes that it is responsible for all these activities. Sri Ramana called this common factor the 'I'-thought [aham-vritti]. Literally aham-vritti means "mental modification of 'I' ". The Self or real 'I' never imagines that it is doing or thinking anything; the 'I' that imagines all this is a mental fiction and so it is called a mental modification of the Self. Since this is a rather cumbersome translation of aham-vritti it is usually translated as 'I'-thought. Sri Ramana upheld the view that the notion of individuality is only the 'I'-thought manifesting itself in different ways. Instead of regarding the different activities of the mind [such as ego, intellect and memory] as separate functions he preferred to view them all as different forms of the 'I'-thought. Since he equated individuality with the mind and the mind with the 'I'-thought it follows that the disappearance of the sense of individuality [i.e. Self-realisation] implies the disappearance of both the mind and the 'I'-thought. This is confirmed by his frequent statements to the effect that after Self-realisation there is no thinker of thoughts, no performer of actions and no awareness of individual existence. Since he upheld the notion that the Self is the only existing reality he regarded the 'I'-thought as a mistaken assumption which has no real existence of its own. He explained its appearance by saying that it can only appear to exist by identifying with an object. When the thoughts arise the 'I'-thought claims ownership of them- 'I think', 'I believe', 'I want', 'I am acting' - but there is no separate 'I'-thought that exists independently of the objects that it is identifying with. It only appears to exist as a real continuous entity because of the incessant flow of identification which are continually taking place. Almost all of these identifications can be traced back to an initial assumption that the 'I' is limited to the body, either as an owner-occupant or co-extensive with its physical form. This 'I am the body' idea is the primary source of all subsequent wrong identifications and its dissolution is the principal aim of self-enquiry. Sri Ramana maintained that this tendency towards self-limiting identifications could be checked by trying to separate the subject 'I' from the objects of thought which it identified with. Since the individual 'I'-thought cannot exist without an object, if attention is focused on the subjective feeling of 'I' or 'I am' with such intensity that the thoughts 'I am this' or 'I am that' do not arise, then the individual 'I' will be unable to connect with objects. If this awareness of 'I' is sustained, the individual 'I' [the 'I'-thought] will disappear and in its place there will be a direct experience of the Self. This constant attention to the inner awareness of 'I' or 'I am' was called self-enquiry [vichara] by Sri Ramana and he constantly recommended it as the most efficient and direct way of discovering the unreality of the 'I'-thought. In Sri Ramana's terminology the 'I'-thought rises from the Self or the Heart and subsides back into the Self when its tendency to identify itself with thought objects ceases. Because of this he often tailored his advice to conform to this image of a rising and subsiding 'I'. He might say 'trace the "I"-thought back to its source', or 'find out where the "I" rises from', but the implication was always the same. Whatever the language used he was advising his devotees to maintain awareness of the 'I'-thought until it dissolved in the source from which it came. He sometimes mentioned that thinking or repeating 'I' mentally would also lead one in the right direction but it is important to note that this is only a preliminary stage of the practice. The repetition of 'I' still involves a subject (the 'I'-thought) having a perception of an object [the thoughts 'I, I'] and while such duality exists the 'I'-thought will continue to thrive. It only finally disappears when the perception of all objects, both physical and mental ceases. This is not brought about by being aware of an 'I', but only by being the 'I'. This stage of experiencing the subject rather than being aware of an object is the culminating phase of self-enquiry. This important distinction is the key element which distinguishes self-enquiry from nearly all other spiritual practices and it explains why Sri Ramana consistently maintained that most other practices were ineffective. He often pointed out that traditional meditations and yoga practices necessitated the existence of a subject who meditates on an object and he would usually add that such a relationship sustained the 'I'-thought instead of eliminating it. In his view such practices may effectively quieten the mind, and they may even produce blissful experiences, but they will never culminate in Self-realisation because the 'I'-thought is not being isolated and deprived of its identity. The conversations which comprise this chapter mostly deal with Sri Ramana's views on the theoretical background of self-enquiry. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Namaste Sri Mitraji: You have raised several questions and also clearly indicated your doubts on the quoted works attributed to Ramana Maharishi. First, let us take a deep breathe and relax our mind and spirit and keep our thoughts with a friendly attitude. All our scriptures rightly pointed out that our attitude matters and that determines our approach to finding answers and respecting other viewpoints orthogonal to our own notions. The sages and saints from the Vedic time period including Sankara and Ramana have provided us the wisdom to be calm, polite and compassionate toward viewpoints that we do not readily accept partially or completely. We can disagree and it is our right and duty to express our disagreements on the subject matter but how express our disagreement is equally important. The answer to the question, whether anyone in the list meditates is quite simple. The fact that we all live confirms that we meditate and living is nothing but meditation. The notion of meditation differs from person to person and the meditative experience also differs from person to person. Fundamentally, the common denominator of meditation is breathing and we all breathe and that confirms that we all meditate. I am not aware of any yardstick to measure the intensity level of awareness of one's meditation. We don't have any yardstick to measure one's happiness, and peace. What makes one happy or at peace is quite mystical and we can't judge whether somebody is happy or at peace! As advaitins, we should focus on finding the unity in the diversity of opinions that ever exist in this universe. The question that should focus is: "what is meditation?" instead of "how to meditate? When we take time to contemplate on what is meditation, this very enquiry will open the door to meditation. With an intense enquiry on what is meditation, we slowly become aware of our surrounding spontaneously without making attempts to see, hear, and touch we attain meditation and momentarily withdraw our thoughts . There are no prescriptions for meditation and it can happen without us knowing. For example those who try very hard to go sleep fail and those who don't want to go to sleep, just sleep while sitting and even standing! Our life is quite mystical and we still can't figure out whether we learn to live or live to learn. The sages of the Upanishad say that we don't need to figure out how to live but just live with the understanding, "Life is a bridge, enjoy while crossing and don't build any castle!" Warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "ShiningLotus" <shininglotus@c...> wrote: > Dear Friends > > > If you decide to answer could you please keep your answer to a few short paragraphs that us simple folk who only meditate could understand as it would be greatly appreciated > > Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Mitra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Premji Welcome to the group My Friend and nice to speak with you again Wasnt really meaning you when I was stateing..........do any of you actually meditate in silence...... I was more directing the question to those who have been placeing the barrage of recent Sri Sri Ramana Maharishi Teachings on the Advaitin Site Simply do not know why this is spilling over onto Advaitin in quantity when all this is on other sites that apply specificly to the Teachings of Sri Sri Ramana Maharshi like www.ramana-maharshi.org.uk and www.RamanaCentre.org and www.Ramana-Maharshi.org and maybe also Ramana As always I look forward to your comments Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Mitra DharmaDev Arya ObtainingMoksha <ObtainingMoksha advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 4:19 AM Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya Namaste, You asked: So my question here is do any of you actually meditate in silence and experience what you are continually talking about or is this simply a quote fest with pages and pages of attention getting material till the subject falls asleep Yes I've definitely experienced some of this before, for instance, once having the experience of self for a short moments, tries to meditate at least an hour or two every day...don't see any point in the practice if you just read and do no practice...that's kind of why it's called a practice... Namo Ramana Prem Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Ramji I understand and respect what you have said In addition I have also read stories of Adi Sankaras life and there seem to have been times where He also displayed a quite strong attitude in public regarding certain disagreements and debates in life For those interested There is a book that might help with scientific explanation of what meditation and enlightment is and how it is felt by different people. The Scientific Experiments in the book quite plainly show the yardstick for knowing what meditation is and how Yogic Mantra Meditation actively changes the life of a person who practices daily Yogic Breathing Techniques can also be a way to enlightenment however the world is filled with people who simply breath and the majority are in pain and suffereing. Simply breathing does not result in the Spiritual Freedom and Happiness that Yogic Mantra Meditation produces on the Spiritual Path to Fearless Life and Final Liberation. If it did am sure we would be in the Golden Age The Neurophysiology of Enlightenment By Robert Keith Wallace Another Book is The Serpent Power by Sir John Woodroffe These are good books that explain what the scientific nature of Meditation actually is all about Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Seva Mitra DharmaDev Arya ramvchandran <rchandran advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 6:54 AM Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman Namaste Sri Mitraji: You have raised several questions and also clearly indicated your doubts on the quoted works attributed to Ramana Maharishi. First, let us take a deep breathe and relax our mind and spirit and keep our thoughts with a friendly attitude. All our scriptures rightly pointed out that our attitude matters and that determines our approach to finding answers and respecting other viewpoints orthogonal to our own notions. The sages and saints from the Vedic time period including Sankara and Ramana have provided us the wisdom to be calm, polite and compassionate toward viewpoints that we do not readily accept partially or completely. We can disagree and it is our right and duty to express our disagreements on the subject matter but how express our disagreement is equally important. The answer to the question, whether anyone in the list meditates is quite simple. The fact that we all live confirms that we meditate and living is nothing but meditation. The notion of meditation differs from person to person and the meditative experience also differs from person to person. Fundamentally, the common denominator of meditation is breathing and we all breathe and that confirms that we all meditate. I am not aware of any yardstick to measure the intensity level of awareness of one's meditation. We don't have any yardstick to measure one's happiness, and peace. What makes one happy or at peace is quite mystical and we can't judge whether somebody is happy or at peace! As advaitins, we should focus on finding the unity in the diversity of opinions that ever exist in this universe. The question that should focus is: "what is meditation?" instead of "how to meditate? When we take time to contemplate on what is meditation, this very enquiry will open the door to meditation. With an intense enquiry on what is meditation, we slowly become aware of our surrounding spontaneously without making attempts to see, hear, and touch we attain meditation and momentarily withdraw our thoughts . There are no prescriptions for meditation and it can happen without us knowing. For example those who try very hard to go sleep fail and those who don't want to go to sleep, just sleep while sitting and even standing! Our life is quite mystical and we still can't figure out whether we learn to live or live to learn. The sages of the Upanishad say that we don't need to figure out how to live but just live with the understanding, "Life is a bridge, enjoy while crossing and don't build any castle!" Warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "ShiningLotus" <shininglotus@c...> wrote: > Dear Friends > > > If you decide to answer could you please keep your answer to a few short paragraphs that us simple folk who only meditate could understand as it would be greatly appreciated > > Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Mitra Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Vickiji Namaskar Mitra This is a good reply as is short and to the point and can understand your message Yes please take as many deep breaths as you are needing Aum Shanti Aum and I will try to answer this according to rules of conduct here First of all to those members who feel they will be offended by a process of questioning the status quo or Spiritual Authority please delete this message immediately so you dont have to be subjected to the questioning of authority figures and their teachings Couple of mistakes here You incorrectly centered on only one part of message I mentioned misquoted or incorrect thinking so I gave you a choice Then am seeing an mistaken assumption that because I am on the Advaitin List that I am labled an Advaitin meaning I limit my Practice to Sri Adi Sankaras Advaitin Teachings Out of self imposed necessity I am here to learn and am doing so however I study in many areas of Veda and The Advaitin Teachings are not the only Path to Realization and Enlightenment so please dont be too surprised because believe it or not Sri Sri Ramana Maharshi is a human person same as you and I. Yes he is a great Human Person however he is not the only Realized Master who knows the only Truth there is to know. Sri Sri Ramana Maharshi knows this also As difficult as some might think all persons make mistakes and he is same as we are and the same as you are and the same as I am and as a Great Teacher he expects his Teachings to be Questioned as Blind Faith gets you no where and He knows this also We are all nothing and at the same time we are everything Has been shown throughout history and the Vedas that there are many Paths to the same Goal and that the majority certainly cannot be discounted so yes if you are going to Label Sri Sri Ramana Maharshi as the Advaitin of Authority and he actually said that his way was basicly the only way and that he continually discounted the majority of Disciplines then yes he was incorrect in his thinking because history and The Vedas and Puranas and Upanasads have shown the world otherwise I really dont think he would make such a statement myself so I am thinking we need to look to the person who is editing his words however that would result questioning another authority figure and where would it all end Truth is questioning authority figures never ends as we become more and more Self Realized So am in firm belief that I have answered this message in the manner required by the moderators and at the same time made the point that no authority figure would be opposed to the questioning of his teachings as that is how people learn and go forward on the particular path and all the Teachers and Gurus know this also Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum Pranams DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 3:02 AM Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman dear Shining Lotus, > Dear Friends > > Looks like Sri Ramana was either misquoted or was > incorrect in his thinking when he consistanly > maintained that most other practices were > ineffective. Please allow me to take a deep deep breath and understand what is going on here. An advaitin says that Sri Ramana was incorrect in his thinking ?! Let me recover from surprize and I'll be back soon. vicki ===== Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free http://sbc. Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Ok I can do this also if thats what it takes Aum Nama Sivaya Sivo s Hum Aham Amritam Aham Brahmasmi Looks kind of like we are saying the same Pranams to you and Family Mitra DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:31 PM Re: Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman dear ShiningLotus, this is for you: Verse 260 ,Viveka-Chudamani , Sri Sankaracharya --------- Realize that thou art 'That' - Brahman which is the cessation of all differentiation , which never changes its nature , and is as unmoved as a waveless ocean , eternally unconditioned and undivided. ----------------- taken from In Days of Great Peace , Mouni Sadhu hope you'll like it more; Mouni Sadhu is another devotee of Sri Ramana; Why bring separation and differentiation where it doesn't exist ? vicki Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Vickiji Yes am familiar with this type of formatted response His teachings do not cause suffereing as you and I both know so I do not understand the context of this message and this kind of comment unless it is simply to elicit some kind of reaction so according to rules of conduct on this list here is response His teachings are as perfect as any other Realized Master and that is the point I am trying to make When you say he is teaching His Way to the exclusion of most others this leaves most all the other good teachings by the wayside and the other teachings need to be respected as perfect teachings also There are people out there that truly do not understand Advaitin and they need to reach the same Goal we are all striving for so there needs to be acceptance of their teachings as good from them as true teaching Am hopeing this makes sense as have explained this as much as possible am thinking Pranams to You and Family Mitra DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:03 PM Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman dear ShiningLotus, I am sincerely sorry to notice that Sri Ramana's teachings on advaitin list make you suffer so; really I don't know what to do , I only try to understand you , vicki > Dear Premji > > Welcome to the group My Friend and nice to speak with you again > > Wasnt really meaning you when I was stateing..........do any of you actually meditate in silence...... I was more directing the question to those who have been placeing the barrage of recent Sri Sri Ramana Maharishi Teachings on the Advaitin Site > > Simply do not know why this is spilling over onto Advaitin in quantity when all this is on other sites that apply specificly to the Teachings of Sri Sri Ramana Maharshi like www.ramana-maharshi.org.uk and www.RamanaCentre.org and www.Ramana-Maharshi.org and maybe also Ramana > > As always I look forward to your comments > > Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Mitra > > DharmaDev Arya > > Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Vickiji I understand your message however we could only speak about this more if you were able to look at the information that is in this book because the nuerological experiments are based on brain waves during Samadhi and brainwaves at different states of conscousness If a person learns to sit in meditation in Samadhi each day they basicly can relate what state of consciousness and Bliss they are in at any given time Then also after reading this material a persons thinking might change or it might not so that is something else to consider In addition I think is truly beautiful for you to continue to believe in all that is Sri Sri Ramana Maharshi as he has had great influence on the Evolution of the Mankind Thanks DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 1:36 PM Re: Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman > Dear Ramji > .................. > For those interested > > There is a book that might help with scientific explanation of what meditation and enlightment is and how it is felt by different people. Dear ShiningLotus, I think that "enlightenment" can't be explained scientifically ; it is to be in the pristine state as Sri Ramana says , or 'That' ; [ I am no admirer of the world "enlightenment" so this is why i put it between apostrophes], I think that in our pristine state science doesn't enter ; and we have the sages and their teachings for that , different experiences of different people could be only a distraction , just an opinion, Love Ramana , the Greatest of All, vicki p.s - as you talked about enlightenment , I'll bring Sri Ramana again to tell us what is enlightenment , as actually many different people are different people having different experiences delluding themselves and others that they know what enlightenment is. The Scientific Experiments in the book quite plainly show the yardstick for knowing what meditation is and how Yogic Mantra Meditation actively changes the life of a person who practices daily > Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Seva Mitra > > DharmaDev Arya Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Namaste: Let me state a few things just for all of us to think carefully before we indulge in conversational style of debating like political leaders with opposing view points. For a many decades, Ramanashram established by Ramana Maharishi and Sringeri Saradha Peetam, and Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam established by Adi Sankracharya continuosly maintain friendly ties. Sri Ramana, Sri Chandrasekara Bharathi of Sringeri Peetam and Chandrasekaredra Saraswati (with the nickname of Periyava) of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam were contemporaries and they greatly respected each other. Visitors who come from different parts of India and abroad usually visit these three spiritual centers and the sages. The above three spiritual masters had the one common goal - uplifting the spirit of the masses who needed their services. I have never heard or read the sayings and writings of these great masters any negative comments on others. We have a lot to learn from these giants in preserving civility during any our conversational style interactive dialogs. If any of us have disagreement with another member in the list(not only on the subject matter but in addition on the personality) we are better off to have separate email correspondence. This can greatly enhance civility and can potentially remove unpleasantness and frustration. One of the most important purpose for posting a message in this list is to highlight or bring new insights to the delivered messages of spiritual masters. As a minimum the poster should have a great inner feeling and relaxation of mind after posting his/her message. When one or several members who read the message also felt some relief, relaxation and uplifting of their spirits, message and consequently this list fulfilled its noble goal. The well known principle in economics, "pareto optimal" is quite useful for of us as a guidance for posting a message: When the message uplifts the spirit of atleast one member and at the same time brings frustration or unhappiness to none then the message is pareto optimal. Most important, we should never atttempt to send a message which conveys our unhappiness and frustration and brings unhappiness to the readers of this message. Isn't it our duty to choose a win-win strategy instead of opting for a lose-lose strategy! Let us take a moment to contemplate and act accordingly, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote: As a minimum the poster should have a > great inner feeling and relaxation of mind after posting his/her > message. When one or several members who read the message also felt > some relief, relaxation and uplifting of their spirits, message > and consequently this list fulfilled its noble goal. > ********** This list is better than joining a health spa! :-). Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Namaste Vicki, What you've mentioned is indeed true. In the past I have introduced Ramana Maharishi's books to my friends and most of them have been shocked and shakened by the way the Maharishi teaches with no compromise. Therefore, a few of my friends have also given up reading his books immediately after that, finding it too difficult. I felt very bad about it initially. Later when these same friends started to attend the talks by visiting swamijis from Chinmaya Mission, Arsha Vidya Gurukulam and Samvit Sagar they were in a better position to appreciate the teachings of Maharishi. especially after studying the Upadesha Saram commentaries by the visiting swamijis. >From my experience, I found that one is able to better appreciate Ramana Maharishi's teachings after knowing the fundamentals of Vedanta. What do others think? One point that has been in my mind for quite some time is the association of Kundalini Yoga with Advaita Vedanta in Maharishi's teachings. I find the Kundalini Yoga approach to non-duality entirely different from the Vedantic approach to non-duality through sharvanam, mananam and nidhidhyasanam. What do you all think? Kathi > > viorica weissman [sMTP:viorica] > Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:47 AM > advaitin > Re: Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman > > dear Ram, > > Now i understand that there are people who are afraid to get closer > to Sri Ramana and his teaching; certainly he is a terrible menacing > to one's ego , therefore why not say that his thinking is incorrect or > that > he 'was' a human being just like me and you ? > Certainly not. He is not the human being that other may like to think, > it is funny to say that his thinking is incorrect ; > it is funny to say that his editors - whose personal life is inexistent > as it has already been given up to Ramana - should be questioned; > what other than the play of a ego - frightened to get closer to the fire > that could burn him out - can this be? > I am sure many learn from this dialog , > > namo Ramana, > vicki > > > > > > > Namaste: > > > > Let me state a few things just for all of us to think carefully before > > we indulge in conversational style of debating like political leaders > > with opposing view points. For a many decades, Ramanashram established > > by Ramana Maharishi and Sringeri Saradha Peetam, and Kanchi Kamakoti > > Peetam established by Adi Sankracharya continuosly maintain friendly > > ties. Sri Ramana, Sri Chandrasekara Bharathi of Sringeri Peetam and > > Chandrasekaredra Saraswati (with the nickname of Periyava) of Kanchi > > Kamakoti Peetam were contemporaries and they greatly respected each > > other. Visitors who come from different parts of India and abroad > > usually visit these three spiritual centers and the sages. The above > > three spiritual masters had the one common goal - uplifting the spirit > > of the masses who needed their services. I have never heard or read > > the sayings and writings of these great masters any negative comments > > on others. We have a lot to learn from these giants in preserving > > civility during any our conversational style interactive dialogs. > > > > If any of us have disagreement with another member in the list(not > > only on the subject matter but in addition on the personality) we are > > better off to have separate email correspondence. This can greatly > > enhance civility and can potentially remove unpleasantness and > > frustration. One of the most important purpose for posting a message > > in this list is to highlight or bring new insights to the delivered > > messages of spiritual masters. As a minimum the poster should have a > > great inner feeling and relaxation of mind after posting his/her > > message. When one or several members who read the message also felt > > some relief, relaxation and uplifting of their spirits, message > > and consequently this list fulfilled its noble goal. > > > > The well known principle in economics, "pareto optimal" is quite > > useful for of us as a guidance for posting a message: When the message > > uplifts the spirit of atleast one member and at the same time brings > > frustration or unhappiness to none then the message is pareto optimal. > > Most important, we should never atttempt to send a message which > > conveys our unhappiness and frustration and brings unhappiness to > > the readers of this message. Isn't it our duty to choose a win-win > > strategy instead of opting for a lose-lose strategy! > > > > Let us take a moment to contemplate and act accordingly, > > > > Ram Chandran > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Ramji and List Members Yes I agree with a win win strategy however I still remember the tradition of debate in India that allows us to learn. I believe opposeing points of view can be discussed without upset or frustration or unhappiness takeing place. As has been seen by the most recent exchanges between Vickiji and I there has been an understanding take place at least from my side to the point where I was able to quote from Teachings found on the Internet Specific to Sri Sri Ramana Maharishi and his recognition of what I have been mentioning on the Advaitin site for some time. Without this method of questioning and answering this information would probably not have been printed on Advaitin It is traditional in India to see debates go on for days or maybe longer and learning comes from this. If we were to follow the economic principal Pareto Optimal with the hundreds of members on this list then each person would have to check with each member before posting to see if any one of the members would be opposed to the message. If this is feasable and doable am all in favor of this I still believe in your win win situation and your uplifting messages however have no idea how you would implement Pareto Optimal in a timely and successful format with hundreds of members. How would you communicate with one another For an example I am a member here also and my remarks were made because someone placed a sentence in a message that was not true and was not uplifiting to me so I said something. Then someone on the list who did not understand my intent chose to say that I needed to be removed as a final solution if I was going to question what was placed on the group list. So now we have jumped from freedom of speech to censorship and removal if we dont all believe in the same way of communicateing or questioning to learn something Specific to this other persons problem with feeling the need to defend something or someone who does not need defending I would also suggest that the moderators of this group really adopt the principles of Pareto Optimal that have been suggested here and check each message sent to the List before approval to be placed on the list site It would probably also be good if the moderators could find some way to send each message sent to them on to each member of the group for approval before posting because the moderators really wont be able to implement Pareto Optimal until they hear from each of the hundreds of members who might be offended. If one person from the group does not approve then there you have your one person and the message does not need to be posted Or other solution is that you could simply and freely empower members on this list not to be afraid to say what they feel and to be allowed to express what they feel at their level of understanding My personal solution is I really dont have the time to check with hundreds of others before I say something so what I would like the moderators to do if possible is to find a way to stop the emails of the group being sent here and if I need to see the groups daily emails I can see them on I dont have control over this as my connection to Advaitin was made by moderator and am not on the so I can change this I would like to continue to recieve the seperate messages from Chennai however am really to busy anymore to participate on the group site Would you please be able to make the changes in my Advaitin Account so that the situation no longer takes place where I find myself reacting to messages placed on the Advaitin List and sent to my email address that are not uplifting to me as a member. In addtion I am sure Pareto Optimo will work splendidly if you are able to eliminate enough people from the Advaitin Group Site so that you can get down to a core group of mutual supporters however I have never seen this work in public forum so all I can say is Good Luck to you My Friends and my personal and public apologies to Vickiji if I have offended her. When all was said she actually helped me to find more Knowledge. I wish her the greatest Health and Happiness and Success the World has to offer her Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Seva Mitra S R DharmaDeva Arya ramvchandran <rchandran advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 4:23 PM Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman Namaste: Let me state a few things just for all of us to think carefully before we indulge in conversational style of debating like political leaders with opposing view points. For a many decades, Ramanashram established by Ramana Maharishi and Sringeri Saradha Peetam, and Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam established by Adi Sankracharya continuosly maintain friendly ties. Sri Ramana, Sri Chandrasekara Bharathi of Sringeri Peetam and Chandrasekaredra Saraswati (with the nickname of Periyava) of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam were contemporaries and they greatly respected each other. Visitors who come from different parts of India and abroad usually visit these three spiritual centers and the sages. The above three spiritual masters had the one common goal - uplifting the spirit of the masses who needed their services. I have never heard or read the sayings and writings of these great masters any negative comments on others. We have a lot to learn from these giants in preserving civility during any our conversational style interactive dialogs. If any of us have disagreement with another member in the list(not only on the subject matter but in addition on the personality) we are better off to have separate email correspondence. This can greatly enhance civility and can potentially remove unpleasantness and frustration. One of the most important purpose for posting a message in this list is to highlight or bring new insights to the delivered messages of spiritual masters. As a minimum the poster should have a great inner feeling and relaxation of mind after posting his/her message. When one or several members who read the message also felt some relief, relaxation and uplifting of their spirits, message and consequently this list fulfilled its noble goal. The well known principle in economics, "pareto optimal" is quite useful for of us as a guidance for posting a message: When the message uplifts the spirit of atleast one member and at the same time brings frustration or unhappiness to none then the message is pareto optimal. Most important, we should never atttempt to send a message which conveys our unhappiness and frustration and brings unhappiness to the readers of this message. Isn't it our duty to choose a win-win strategy instead of opting for a lose-lose strategy! Let us take a moment to contemplate and act accordingly, Ram Chandran Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 Dear Vickiji Thanks for your generous words however time is limited and as Krishna Das has said Live on Earth for a Limited Time Am finding am reacting to things that are not necessary to react to so our exchange has worked out for the best My Friend. Thanks for your help in this I hope you will be posting more and more of your Gurus Teachings on Advaitin Thanks and Take Care DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 9:32 PM Re: Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman dear Mitra, of course you haven't offended me ! please don't think so and don't leave this group if you are feeling good here ; there was not the slightest offence or unpleasantness to me in anything that has been said , so I feel I can't let you think so; I make no difference between people , no difference between 'realize that Thou art That ' and 'Who Am I?' , otherwise I wouldn't have d to this group had I seen any difference . namo Ramana, vicki > Dear Ramji and List Members > > Yes I agree with a win win strategy however I still remember the tradition of debate in India that allows us to learn. I believe opposeing points of view can be discussed without upset or frustration or unhappiness takeing place. As has been seen by the most recent exchanges between Vickiji and I there has been an understanding take place at least from my side to the point where I was able to quote from Teachings found on the Internet Specific to Sri Sri Ramana Maharishi and his recognition of what I have been mentioning on the Advaitin site for some time. Without this method of questioning and answering this information would probably not have been printed on Advaitin > > It is traditional in India to see debates go on for days or maybe longer and learning comes from this. > > If we were to follow the economic principal Pareto Optimal with the hundreds of members on this list then each person would have to check with each member before posting to see if any one of the members would be opposed to the message. If this is feasable and doable am all in favor of this > > I still believe in your win win situation and your uplifting messages however have no idea how you would implement Pareto Optimal in a timely and successful format with hundreds of members. How would you communicate with one another > > For an example I am a member here also and my remarks were made because someone placed a sentence in a message that was not true and was not uplifiting to me so I said something. Then someone on the list who did not understand my intent chose to say that I needed to be removed as a final solution if I was going to question what was placed on the group list. So now we have jumped from freedom of speech to censorship and removal if we dont all believe in the same way of communicateing or questioning to learn something > > Specific to this other persons problem with feeling the need to defend something or someone who does not need defending I would also suggest that the moderators of this group really adopt the principles of Pareto Optimal that have been suggested here and check each message sent to the List before approval to be placed on the list site > > It would probably also be good if the moderators could find some way to send each message sent to them on to each member of the group for approval before posting because the moderators really wont be able to implement Pareto Optimal until they hear from each of the hundreds of members who might be offended. If one person from the group does not approve then there you have your one person and the message does not need to be posted > > Or other solution is that you could simply and freely empower members on this list not to be afraid to say what they feel and to be allowed to express what they feel at their level of understanding > > My personal solution is I really dont have the time to check with hundreds of others before I say something so what I would like the moderators to do if possible is to find a way to stop the emails of the group being sent here and if I need to see the groups daily emails I can see them on > > I dont have control over this as my connection to Advaitin was made by moderator and am not on the so I can change this > > I would like to continue to recieve the seperate messages from Chennai however am really to busy anymore to participate on the group site > > Would you please be able to make the changes in my Advaitin Account so that the situation no longer takes place where I find myself reacting to messages placed on the Advaitin List and sent to my email address that are not uplifting to me as a member. In addtion I am sure Pareto Optimo will work splendidly if you are able to eliminate enough people from the Advaitin Group Site so that you can get down to a core group of mutual supporters however I have never seen this work in public forum so all I can say is Good Luck to you My Friends and my personal and public apologies to Vickiji if I have offended her. When all was said she actually helped me to find more Knowledge. I wish her the greatest Health and Happiness and Success the World has to offer her > > Dhanyawaad aur Pranams Seva Mitra > > S R DharmaDeva Arya > > > Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2002 Report Share Posted July 3, 2002 Dear Miss all is Ok so please dont blame your self for anything as all worked out perfectly. I learned what I needed and is time to move on also need to take some time out to rest for awhile Thanks Seva Mitra DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:14 PM Re: Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman dear Mitra, be a little more generous to yourself and don't blame yourself for reacting ; as long as identification with our opinions,feelings,thoughts, is there - we all react , and the good thing is happening also : we are aware of it . please accept my apologizes if my words have brought any offence to you, namo Ramana, vicki > Dear Vickiji > > Thanks for your generous words however time is limited and as Krishna Das has said Live on Earth for a Limited Time > > Am finding am reacting to things that are not necessary to react to so our exchange has worked out for the best My Friend. Thanks for your help in this > > I hope you will be posting more and more of your Gurus Teachings on Advaitin > > Thanks and Take Care > > DharmaDev Arya > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2002 Report Share Posted July 3, 2002 Dear Seva Mitra Wait Has been a busy week here and is a new day Is there a way to access more information from the Teachings of Sri Sri Ramana Maharshi specific to his mention of Kundalini Yoga and the Chakras In the process of going beyond the Sahasrara Chakra in Meditation each explorer has to find their own way. However looks like Sri Ramana is holding up the Lantern in the Distance ahead so would like to know if there is more that he has said to the Path I am following as a recluse Look forward to your message Thanks and Take Care Seva Mitra DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica advaitin <advaitin> Wednesday, July 03, 2002 12:24 AM Re: Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman dear Mitra, I am very glad everything is Ok, with love, vicki > Dear Miss > > all is Ok so please dont blame your self for > anything as all worked out perfectly. I learned what > I needed and is time to move on > > also need to take some time out to rest for awhile > > Thanks Seva Mitra > > DharmaDev Arya ===== Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free http://sbc. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya Namaste, you wrote: Welcome to the group My Friend and nice to speak with you again Thank you. Speak to me again? Have we spoken before? Sorry just wanted to aska bout that. As for the rest of the post, that is understandable. I wasn't aware that this was pointed to them only. thank you. Oh also, sorry for how long it took for me to reply, I was away on vacation. Namo Ramana Prem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2002 Report Share Posted July 8, 2002 Dear Premji There was a Premji on the Shakti Sadhana Group site on who I met and I thought this might be you My Friend Thanks and Take Care DharmaDev Ary ObtainingMoksha <ObtainingMoksha advaitin <advaitin> Sunday, July 07, 2002 3:52 PM Re: Self-Enquiry Theory - David Godman Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya Namaste, you wrote: Welcome to the group My Friend and nice to speak with you again Thank you. Speak to me again? Have we spoken before? Sorry just wanted to aska bout that. As for the rest of the post, that is understandable. I wasn't aware that this was pointed to them only. thank you. Oh also, sorry for how long it took for me to reply, I was away on vacation. Namo Ramana Prem Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2002 Report Share Posted July 14, 2002 Namaste. Are you guys running Ramana and Sankara Fans Clubs or what? Why all this competition in the name of advaita? This is like some movie bum saying "Amitabh or Shah Rukh is the gretest". Just been away for a short while and really surprised to see that a great lot has flown under the Advaitin bridge! Pranams. Madathil Nair ___________________________ advaitin, "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote: > Dear ShiningLotus, > Love Ramana , the Greatest of All, > vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2002 Report Share Posted July 15, 2002 Namaste Kathirasanji. (1) That was fresh breeze indeed. I fully agree with you as it is my personal experience too. (2) There is no problem with Kundalini as long as the advaitin understands that Kundalini is the very Consciousness he is after. Problems arise only when Kundalini yoga is practised for limited ends. Sorry I am late with this. Pranams. Madathil Nair _______________ advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote: (1) From my experience, I found that one is able to better appreciate Ramana > Maharishi's teachings after knowing the fundamentals of Vedanta. What do > others think? > >(2) One point that has been in my mind for quite some time is the association of > Kundalini Yoga with Advaita Vedanta in Maharishi's teachings. I find the > Kundalini Yoga approach to non-duality entirely different from the Vedantic > approach to non-duality through sharvanam, mananam and nidhidhyasanam. What > do you all think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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