Maharshi-Self-Enquiry / Theory - [7]

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:34:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

viorica writes:

 

> Q: That is the transcendental state.

>

> A: No. Transcending what, and by whom? You alone exist.

>

 

Swami here has apparently never had such a glorious experience, something

that can be quite commonly found. Turiya is a distinct state of

consciousness that must be experienced to be known. No words or talk here

will bring such a state about. One may choose to remain closed over such

possibilities, or not. Reiteration of no, not so, will surely result in no,

not so. So be it.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/9/2002 9:40:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

capanellius writes:

 

>

> "The Fourth (Turiya) is without parts and without relationship;

> it is the cessation of phenomena; it is all good and non-dual. This

> Aum (i.e., in its soundless transcendental aspect) is verily Atman

> (Pure Consciousness). He who knows this merges is self with

> Atman."

>

> Given the above description of Turiya, it seems difficult to conceive

> of what lies beyond Pure Conscious or Moksha as Turiya is often

> conceived. Shankara in his comments of the above lines refers to it

> as the attainment of the Highest Goal.

>

> Does anyone know if the concept of "Beyond the Forth" has any

> basis in the principle Upanishads?

>

 

In TM, turiya is called transcendental consciousness, something that is

dynamically experienced by virtually everyone, with greater or lesser

intensity depending on many variables. One moves in and out of turiya,

spontaneously for different lengths of time during a meditation period. It

is recognized as a distinct state of consciousness, which reflects peace and

contentment back in the world of duality. It dissolves stress, the day to

day versions from the environment, and more slowly, the long term stresses

that veil a clearer vision of pure being, brahman, during waking activities.

 

Such an experienced state is far different, and much more gratifying, than

simply being aware of that which is left over after all thoughts and worldly

activities dissolve away. Now it may well be that there are individuals who

have attained to this turiya state, at least from time to time for moments or

so, and find themselves witness to such a state, without having called off

such a state with the intellect. I am quite certain that I have met such

people, those with unwittingly keen prajna introspection, but far removed

from the world of intellectual philosophy. However, this is a rare phenomena

and not regularly predictable. For example, I once initiated a long term

Rosicrucian adept into TM, indeed, one of my early Rosicrucian mentors. His

reply after decades of deep, profound, mystical Rosicrucian work was

something to the affect, "Wow, incredible. I'm pretty sure I've had such an

experience three or four time before in my life, and now it comes up in every

meditation!"

 

I have no need to offend anyone and I certainly do see many prodigious saints

and holy ones around me all the time, including Maharshi Ramana. My remarks

are simple and innocent, not blasphemous in any way, as for instance, "Jane

is wearing a red dress. Jane is not wearing a blue dress." That "Jane is

not wearing a blue dress" should not be considered as 'finding fault'. It's

a simple fact from a straight forward observation. That "turiya may not be

mentioned or implied" in some quote someplace does not mean fault finding.

It means that "turiya was not mentioned". The question might be asked, "Why

was it not mentioned?"

 

Defensive responses are an activation of the same type forces of reaction

that are often seen in the TM organization also, of those who do not allow

any remark about Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in any way at any time for any reason.

Such fundamentalist folks often consider Maharishi Mahesh to be God (with a

big G) on earth, or the like, omniscient and all that, rather than simply a

very wise avatar/human leader. He may well be (undoubtedly is) highly

evolved, but this misses the mark, and such folks often separate themselves

from the basic TM message (and reality), to get on with getting into turiya

on a regular basis and start being self-reliant and self-sufficient in the

field of duality (as well as of brahman) rather than trying to promote

another new cultish religion. Though the structure of TM teachings goes far

out of its way to avoid the avidya trappings of religious undertakings,

nevertheless, such cultish phenomena still manage to bleed through. As more

and more people and the world get to experience this turiya, this samadhi,

indeed this (real turiya infected) brahman, such problems of over protection

of one's istadevata will undoubtedly vanish.

 

jai guru dev,

 

Edmond

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:34:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> viorica@z... writes:

>

>

> > Q: That is the transcendental state.

> >

> > A: No. Transcending what, and by whom? You alone exist.

> >

>

> Swami here has apparently never had such a glorious experience,

something

> that can be quite commonly found. Turiya is a distinct state of

> consciousness that must be experienced to be known. No words or

talk here

> will bring such a state about. One may choose to remain closed

over such

> possibilities, or not. Reiteration of no, not so, will surely

result in no,

> not so. So be it.

 

 

Ed, I am surprised that you find fault with higher states of

expression as coming from this person. A teacher will give different

answers depending on the preparedness of the questioner. Not all of

his answers are quite so out there. You might see his authenticity in

some of his other answers perhaps. Perhaps his answer here is for one

already familar with turiya & he was pushing them further. I think

very highly of Ramana Maharshi.

 

Col

[Guest guest]

re: capanellius <capanellius

> Does anyone know if the concept of "Beyond the Forth" has any

> basis in the principle Upanishads?

>

 

This is probably a reference to Cosmic Consciousness, God Consciousness, and

Unity Consciousness as developed and used in TM circles. Cosmic

Consciousness is that state of awareness where appreciation of the joy/bliss

levels of Transcendental Consciousness start to remain with us in waking

state from time to time, a rather new and sometimes a bit tumultuous in that

many new levels of subtle reality begin to come forward. God Consciousness

sets in when Transcendental Consciousness is mostly around and the values of

awareness of the cosmos are much less limited. Unity Consciousness (brahman

consciousness) spontaneously arises at will after God Consciousness is fully

developed. These same names are used among some of the other spiritual

disciplines, but the meanings are usually quite different, even when

seemingly quite related.

 

jai guru dev,

 

Edmond

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "earthsunjoy" <radiantlove@h...> wrote:

> advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

>> Perhaps his answer here is for one already familar with turiya &

he was pushing them further.<<

 

Turiya is well grounded in the Upanishads e.g. in Mandukya Up (XII:

p. 248, by Nikhilananda):

 

"The Fourth (Turiya) is without parts and without relationship;

it is the cessation of phenomena; it is all good and non-dual. This

Aum (i.e., in its soundless transcendental aspect) is verily Atman

(Pure Consciousness). He who knows this merges is self with

Atman."

 

 

Given the above description of Turiya, it seems difficult to conceive

of what lies beyond Pure Conscious or Moksha as Turiya is often

conceived. Shankara in his comments of the above lines refers to it

as the attainment of the Highest Goal.

 

Does anyone know if the concept of "Beyond the Forth" has any

basis in the principle Upanishads?

 

Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Dear Capanelliusji

 

Thank you for finding Adi Shankaras comments on the Fourth Turiya and mentioning

the concept of Beyond the Fourth State

 

This is of great interest to anyone who experiences deep states in meditation

where at times a state described as Black Out is experienced during the

Meditation

 

One is sitting in Samadhi one moment and then 20 minutes later one only has

memory that they are coming back to Samadhi from a state of total Nothingness

and Bliss. Sitting in full lotus this is different than the experience of the

sleep state or the wakeing state or the dream state as there it total

nothingness experienced. Then when coming out of this area and only a wakening

conscious awareness of moveing back to the Union of the Kameshvara Chakra

 

Would be good to hear if anyone is able to locate the specific Knowledge where

the Upanisads explain and support the concept of...... consciously........ going

beyond the Fourth Sate while still in the physical body. To be consciously aware

while beyond the Fourth Sate as we are consciously aware of the State of Bliss

in Samadhi

 

It is good to continually merge the self with Atman in daily Meditation however

in doing this we actually earn the responsiblity of learning to act in the

present moment in the Relstive Field on what we are learning for the good of all

concerned

 

Continually sitting in Bliss is actually a training ground that allows us to

learn to take the next step in Accomplishment that is to practice takeing Action

from the Absolute Level of Consciousness for the betterment of the Mankind and

the Evolution of the world we live in. Maharshi Patanjali taught this in his

Sutras

 

Meditators are like the Arrow on the Bow at full Draw

 

Thank you again for finding this Knowledge My Friend

 

Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum

 

DharmaDev Arya

 

 

capanellius <capanellius

advaitin <advaitin>

Tuesday, July 09, 2002 6:39 AM

Re: Maharshi-Self-Enquiry / Theory - [7]

 

 

advaitin, "earthsunjoy" <radiantlove@h...> wrote:

> advaitin, edmeasure@a... wrote:

>> Perhaps his answer here is for one already familar with turiya &

he was pushing them further.<<

 

Turiya is well grounded in the Upanishads e.g. in Mandukya Up (XII:

p. 248, by Nikhilananda):

 

"The Fourth (Turiya) is without parts and without relationship;

it is the cessation of phenomena; it is all good and non-dual. This

Aum (i.e., in its soundless transcendental aspect) is verily Atman

(Pure Consciousness). He who knows this merges is self with

Atman."

 

 

Given the above description of Turiya, it seems difficult to conceive

of what lies beyond Pure Conscious or Moksha as Turiya is often

conceived. Shankara in his comments of the above lines refers to it

as the attainment of the Highest Goal.

 

Does anyone know if the concept of "Beyond the Forth" has any

basis in the principle Upanishads?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Sponsor

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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