Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Namaste, I disagree. First of all once abiding in this absolute state, the source, the self, there is no responsibility nor anyone to have the responsibility. Nor is there a mankind who is suffering. There cannot be any wants or need to help mankind, any desire is no better than any other no matter what this desire is. A sage is helping people who come near them by their silence. That is all that is needed. They can't want because there is no individual them to be able to want, and they know this and feel this. peace Prem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Namaskar Seva Mitra Would like to comment on this if that is OK When a person becomes more and more in Union with Lord Siva and the Devas then They actually direct the Path according to a persons observations and needs and wants to see the Destruction of Pain and Suffereing in the World >From personal experience there is no loss or gain of energy in this relationship of Action because there is no attachment to the work of service to the Mankind. In my particular case the only attatchment is to My Friends Lord Siva and the Devas Maybe am missing something here however pile of ashes reference does not compute in regard to responsibilities in service to the Mankind in the real world of suffereing and pain Emotional and Psychological and Physical pain and suffereing is real and causes Mankind and Evolution great difficulty therefore the more self realized or enlightened a person becomes the more they naturally wish to see the Destruction of Pain and Suffering so yes an attatchment of sorts takes place When a person meets the Lord Siva in Meditation it only enhances the need to stop the suffereing when we return to the Relative Field Yes all is an illusion in theory and that is totally correct as applied when experienceing in the Absolute Field of Consciousness however this theory breaks down in the relative field as we spend most of our time in the real world of physical stimulus and so does our families All the explanations in the world regarding illusion theory does not work when you are on battlefield with leg torn off and bleeding to death. Agony and Pain take the place of sitting quietly and cerebralizeing about how great the illusion affects any one person. In addition hitting another car head on will also change a persons belief system to the core of their existance in less then a micro second It is Mankinds Birthright in this physical world and all the Lokas for each individual Souls illusion to the Happiest and Most Comfortable at each micro second of physical life. Dharma Artha Kama Moksa Is great to sit in Meditation and see that all is an illusion however when we come back from the Absolute Field it is our duty to make the world a better place. Again in my particular life situation as a Hanuman sitting in Samadhi or acting in the Relative Field I will never see what I am to Protect as a pile of ashes because that is not my Path in this physical lifetime The Age of the Kali Yuga is an Age of Responsiblity and Accountability and Active Participation that forces the observer to balance the paying of the personal and family monetary responsibilities at the same time we are to continue our Spiritual Disciplines and also perform our service to the Mankind to eliminate pain and suffereing Some of what we see in Holy Books is from a Golden Age that we do not live in at this time and can only refer to and hope for in the future Hope this makes sense Pranams DharmaDev Arya viorica weissman <viorica NamoRamana <NamoRamana>; MillionPaths <MillionPaths> Cc: NDS <NonDualitySalon>; Sufi <SufiMystic>; Advaitin <advaitin> Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:42 PM Lalla-just a pile of ashes. Your pride in yourself and your wanting, these steal your energy along the road. If you can kill these robbers and become the servant of everyone, you'll meet the Lord in meditation and see what you used to protect as just a pile of ashes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lalla Naked Song ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Dear Premji You must be liveing in different world than I do if you are not able to look around you and see the pain and suffereing that could be alleviated with your help. Other thing is have never known a Sage to be silent except in stories. Most Sages have so much Saraswati Knowledge to share they write books and continualy lecture aspirants daily and the multitude becomes larger each day Being in Service to the Mankind it is really strange to hear someone named Prem say there connot be any want or need to help the Mankind. It would be most difficult if you were in charge of society because then I guess we would have no social services and emergency services and medical services and let each individual fend for themselves in survival of the fittest It also seems from what you are saying that the Lessons of the Ramayana are for nothing then Is a fair question to ask you please What did you learn from reading the Ramayana It would be most simple to prove to you quite plainly that you are incorrect in what you are saying The fastest way for someone to learn about the validity of needing and wanting is to simply take hammer and smash bones in fingers to learn what needing and wanting is all about You are them and them are You and when you damage yourself you will want relief no matter what I dont suggest you damage yourself in this manner however is really a fast way to discover the real world we live in Good Luck with your search Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum DharmaDev Arya ObtainingMoksha <ObtainingMoksha advaitin <advaitin> Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:50 AM Re: Lalla-just a pile of ashes. Namaste, I disagree. First of all once abiding in this absolute state, the source, the self, there is no responsibility nor anyone to have the responsibility. Nor is there a mankind who is suffering. There cannot be any wants or need to help mankind, any desire is no better than any other no matter what this desire is. A sage is helping people who come near them by their silence. That is all that is needed. They can't want because there is no individual them to be able to want, and they know this and feel this. peace Prem Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Namaste, You misunderstood what I wrote. We are to help, but desire is to not be there, desire is to be dropped. yes we are to help, but the sense of the individual doing these things is to not be there. Again ou have misunderstood what I have said. Sage bein gsilent, yes, I know they write books. But what I meant is the silence of a sage is often the thing that will throw someone into a temperary bliss just by being in their presence. The words do nothing like that, though they help with practices and such. The body feels pain, but I've heard of sages who have not felt this type of pain in their bodies, being so detached. up until then yes we feel the pain because we are stuck in the illusion. peace Prem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Namaste, All this is only from what I know and what I have learned. Ramana Maharshi has said when in the survice of others, this is to be a devotion to God, and in this way there is no desire except of the devotion to God, which should be motiveless. peace Prem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Namaste Premji You say that we have to help BUT desire has to be dropped. How can one do that? To help someone is a desire...a noble desire in fact. I don't think such desires are a problem. Ramana Maharishi, Adi Shankara and all the great teachers had desires too. Especially to help those in need .The only difference between them and us is that they are free and not bound by their desires. Kathi > > ObtainingMoksha [sMTP:ObtainingMoksha] > Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:34 AM > advaitin > Re: Lalla-just a pile of ashes. > > Namaste, > > You misunderstood what I wrote. We are to help, but desire is to not be > there, desire is to be dropped. yes we are to help, but the sense of the > individual doing these things is to not be there. Again ou have > misunderstood what I have said. Sage bein gsilent, yes, I know they write > > books. But what I meant is the silence of a sage is often the thing that > will throw someone into a temperary bliss just by being in their presence. > > The words do nothing like that, though they help with practices and such. > > The body feels pain, but I've heard of sages who have not felt this type > of > pain in their bodies, being so detached. up until then yes we feel the > pain > because we are stuck in the illusion. > > peace > > Prem > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Dear Premji Namaskar My Friend Aum Shanti Aum Really didnt misunderstand Main intent and purpose was to ask for an explanation of statements made before the list received about 1000 messages from participants We were born to this physical life in this world of desires as were all others. The most Enlightened Sage and the Greatest Avatara in the History of our World always had a desire at each micro second of physical life whether it be the conscious desire to take the next breath or the desire to protect the Mankind or the conscious desire to be one with Almighty God. All are attachments we can live with in the Relative Field at finer and finer levels Desires are even found in the Absolute Field of Consciousness at the highest levels when Brahma desires to re create and Visnu wishes to maintain and Siva desires to destroy ignorance Thank you for your explanation My Friend Aum NamaSivaya Sivaya Nama Aum DharmaDev Arya ObtainingMoksha <ObtainingMoksha advaitin <advaitin> Wednesday, July 10, 2002 7:33 PM Re: Lalla-just a pile of ashes. Namaste, You misunderstood what I wrote. We are to help, but desire is to not be there, desire is to be dropped. yes we are to help, but the sense of the individual doing these things is to not be there. Again ou have misunderstood what I have said. Sage bein gsilent, yes, I know they write books. But what I meant is the silence of a sage is often the thing that will throw someone into a temperary bliss just by being in their presence. The words do nothing like that, though they help with practices and such. The body feels pain, but I've heard of sages who have not felt this type of pain in their bodies, being so detached. up until then yes we feel the pain because we are stuck in the illusion. peace Prem Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Namaskar In this way there is not desire......except......of the devotion to God......which should be motiveless so whether with motive or without motive as reflected in this thought process there still seems to be a desire existing to the devotion of God Do you feel it would be necessary to do away with this desire also Pranams DharmaDev Arya ObtainingMoksha <ObtainingMoksha advaitin <advaitin> Wednesday, July 10, 2002 7:50 PM Re: Lalla-just a pile of ashes. Namaste, All this is only from what I know and what I have learned. Ramana Maharshi has said when in the survice of others, this is to be a devotion to God, and in this way there is no desire except of the devotion to God, which should be motiveless. peace Prem Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Namaste, I disagree, because of what I've been taught but I won't argue. peace Prem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Namaste, As for your question in the second email. Maybe upon the realization of the union with God yes, but devotion to God is an important part of my practice. peace Prem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Dear Seva Mitra Need to add something to the sentence here that is When you encounter sorrow and suffering remain with it and dont try to escape it There are a few on this group that might be new to Advaitin Philosophy and they are people with families. Even as an individual the path to remain with suffereing and pain is a trap and to drag the family down as a result of takeing this path traps other unsuspecting and innocent individuals in the family We really need to clarify that this one sentence was placed in print by one individual at only one moment in the History of the Entire world specific to what he was seeing in his world at that time. Although this phrase might apply to an Ascetic or Monk it does not apply to a householder Please comment on this however this does not relate to what we see in this world today. Today we basicly see most all the aspirants seeking out the Teachers because they are trying to escape from suffering and pain and be one with the desires to serve Almighty God In addition the Gurus support and validate this attempt to escape suffereing and pain with their Teachings that recognize suffereing and pain and give solutions that would enable a person to escape suffereing and pain so is a neverending circle supported by the Teachers the Teachings and the needs of the aspirants As an example to support what I am saying The Jaganath Temple of Puri in Orissa feeds about 25,000 people per day. The logistics of time effort and finances are totally immense. This Temple does not tell 25,000 people to remain with their suffereing and it is best to follow their example and the example of other Temples that are active in relieveing suffereing and pain throughout India I always keep going back to the indivduals who are described as I am as common Mankind who choose not to deal with the destructive exercise of following sorrow and pain to its foundation because we have to much respect for ourselves and Almighty God and the lives and comfort of the people who depend on us in our families In Hinduism that is Sanatana Dharma there is a phrase also that is Lokaa Samasta Sukhino Bhavantu meaning Let the entire world be Happy meaning please dont remain with suffereing and pain Lord Rudra continually howls and screams that the pain and suffereing be destroyed and Lord Siva supports this on all levels to include Spiritual and Everyday Life for all the Mankind and Womankind When individual life and the life and comfort of family or extended family are at risk it is our responsibility to deliberately act to stop sinking into suffereing and pain by following a more pro active path to resolution so that we can deliberately and with intent and purpose obtain the freedom we need through Self Empowerment and Fearless Life to Accomplish our Destiny in this physical lifetime Lord Siva and the Devas support a pro active path as is seen in the Holy Books we study This is not just about one person remaining in the exercise of giveing up to suffereing and pain because we all live in family groups where we affect another person or group of people so this is about an entire family of Mankind where if one person is not Happy then they affect another persons Happiness. It is not necessary to remain with suffereing and pain and each person is responsible to themselves and to the Mankind to make an effort to resolve the problems of pain and suffereing that cause breakdowns in relationships adding to more complications obstructions in life that are not acceptable What I am saying is that if anyone follows this Spiritual Tenet or Phrase it will do more damage than good because it does not stand the test of reality when a family depends on the head of household to provide for them and the head of household is suffering in Saturn Return time of life in physical and mental pain complicated by growing possibility of loseing job and loseing home and property and haveing family turned out on street. Saturn Return is Cosmic Head On Colission in the age brackets of 28 to 35 years and then each 28 years thereafter A man finding himself in this place is standing in Agni and can do one of two things. Can sink into the Destruction or learn the lessons and turn to Lord Siva and the Devas for their Protection and Help and Knowledge on the Path to Moksa There is another sentence here along the same lines that does not work also Neither learning or acting can really help This is another trap that eliminates going to a Guru or Teacher or Advaitin Group for consulatation or advice to end the suffering and pain Thanks Pranams DharmaDev Arya viorica_weissman <viorica advaitin <advaitin> Thursday, July 11, 2002 4:33 AM Re: Lalla-just a pile of ashes. > Namaskar > > In this way there is not desire......except......of the devotion to God......which should be motiveless > > so whether with motive or without motive > > as reflected in this thought process there still seems to be a desire existing to the devotion of God > > Do you feel it would be necessary to do away with this desire also > > Pranams > > DharmaDev Arya "When you don't require anything from the world and nothing from God, when you don't desire anything, when you don't strive for anything, don't expect anything, the divine will enter you, unasked and unexpected. The wish for truth is the best of all wishes, but it's still a wish. All wishes must be given up, that the truth can enter your life. When you encounter sorrow and suffering, remain with it and don't try to escape from it. Don't throw yourself into blind activity. Neither learning nor acting can really help. Be with the presence of sorrow and uncover their roots - help with insight is real help. Understanding confusion means becoming free of it." Nisargadatta Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Namaskar My Friend Thank you for your explanations Yes is not necessary to argue Aum Shanti Aum was simply trying to find out from your statements that you are printing in your messages matches what I am reading in your messages and is applicable to the present day world of what can be called the Human Condition of the Common Man The more a person questions the more they are better prepared to deal with different situations that are presented in life Thank you for takeing the time to answer and I look forward to speaking with you again Pranams My Friend DharmaDev Arya ObtainingMoksha <ObtainingMoksha advaitin <advaitin> Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:06 AM Re: Lalla-just a pile of ashes. Namaste, I disagree, because of what I've been taught but I won't argue. peace Prem Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2002 Report Share Posted July 11, 2002 Namaste: The ongoing discussions pertain to the question: "whether one can perform an action (help) without any desire?" is quite challenging. Such discussions are likely subject to confusion and misinterpretations because each discussant approaches such questions from a different angle. The above question and other questions similar to the above were discussed in the past more than once. They include the following: (1) Is it possible to perform an action without any desire? (1) Is the root problem desire or lack of noble desires? (1) Will noble desires remove the ill effects of any action? (1) Is the ultimate goal of life desireless? Such questions are discussed with greater details in Bhagavad Gita and also in the Upanishads implicitly and explicitly. In this list, our focus should be to get an understanding on these questions within the framework of Shankara's Advaita Philosophy. According to Shankara, the root cause of our confusions, misinterpretations and misstatements is IGNORANCE. We are quite comfortable in using quotations and statements from the sages and saints such as Ramana Maharishi, NisargatVedavyasa or Shankara to make a point. We seldom remember to mention the context of those statements and the implied qualifications attributable to such quotations. When we try to generalize those quotations universally for all the people and at all time, we are likely to bring more confusion and less enlightenment. For example, Ramana's statement, "The fact is, you are ignorant of your blissful state," is a powerful reminder to all of us that we should eradicate our IGNORANCE. Ramana's statement is an affirmation of the thesis of Shankara's advaita philosophy. All posters of the list (including me) need to pay attention to the scope of this list and the objectives stated at the URL: advaitin/. If we pay attention, we will be able to understand that just quoting the wisdom of the sages such as Ramana Maharishi is not sufficient for us to eradicate our ignorance. When we become members of this list, we have determined to take necessary steps to follow the words of sages such as Ramana Maharishi and relate those words within the framework of Shankara's Advaita Philosophy. Failure due to do so will deprive the members the available opportunity to learn Shankara's Vedanta with the proper perspective. For the past several weeks, we the list members seem to have forgotten that this list's main emphasis is Shankara's Advaita philosophy. We the members of the list respect the sage Ramana Maharishi from Arunachal but with our present ignorance, our understanding of his wisdom is not guaranteed. May I request those who quote the sage's words to relate those quotations within the framework of Shankara's advaita philosophy. I also recommend the posters to read the scope and objectives of the list more carefully. Someone recently pointed out there are specialized lists that propagate and discuss the works of Ramana and I do agree with the poster's contention. Several members have sent me private emails raising concerns that this list does not focus on Shankara and they are quite right. As a moderator of this list, it is my DUTY to remind all about the scope of this list and its policies again. Ramana is a great soul and we have not reached the level of spiritual maturity to understand and appreciate all his words and the context of his expositions. The right place for us to start our most important project, "ERADICATION OF IGNORANCE" is to study Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads using the texts from scholarly authors and discusses them on a regular basis. At appropriate times, we should use the quotations from Jnanis to get more insights of our understanding. If we reverse the direction, we will be putting the cart in front of the horse and we go nowhere! (To be continued in the second post) Warmest regards, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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