Gita Satsangh: Chapter 8 Verses 5 to 10

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Thanks to all respondents for their active participation in the

Satsangh. The list is really blessed with scholarly exchnages to get

better insights on Gita's message. Let us continue with the same

spirit of enhancing our knowledge through this Satsangh. Once again

the posted verses were collected by Sri Sunderji and I am just

reposting his original postings.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

Note: As ProfVK pointed out earlier, all youngsters should feel free

to raise questions and clarify their and others' doubts with their

active participation. The opportunity is knocking at your doors

(mail boxes!) and don't miss it!

 

=========================================

 

atha ashhTamo.adhyaayaH . Chapter 8 : Verses 5-10 [with Shankara-

Bhashya, tr. Sw.Gambhirananda] akshara-brahma-yogaH. The Yoga of the

Imperishable Absolute.

 

antakaale cha maameva smaranmuktvaa kalevaram.h .

yaH prayaati sa madbhaavaM yaati naastyatra sa.nshayaH .. 5..

 

5. And at the time of death, anyone who departs by giving up the body

while thinking of Me alone, he attains My state. There is no doubt

about this. cha, and ; anta-kaale, at the time of death; yaH, anyone

who; prayaati, departs; muktvaa, by giving up; kalevaram, body;

smaran, while thinking; maam eva, of Me alone, who am the supreme

Lord Vishnu; saH, he; yaati, attains; madbhaavam, My state, the

Reality that is Vishnu, asti, there is; na, no; sa.nshayaH, doubt;

atra, about this, in this regard, as to whether he attains (Me) or

not. 'This rule does not apply in relation to me alone.' 'What then?'

 

yaM yaM vaa.api smaranbhaavaM tyajatyante kalevaram.h .

taM tamevaiti kaunteya sadaa tadbhaavabhaavitaH ..6

 

6. O son of Kunti, thinking of any entity whichever it may be one

gives up the body at the end, he attains that very one, having been

always engrossed in its thought. kaunteya, O Son of Kunti; smaran,

thinking of; bhaavam, any entity, any particular deity; yam yam vaa

api, which ever it may be; tyajati, one gives up; kalevaram, body;

ante, at the end, at the time of the departure of life; eti, he

attains; tam tam eva, that very one, that very entity which is

remembered-none else; having been sadaa, always; tadbhaava-bhaavitaH,

engrossed in its thought. Engrossment in it is tad-bhaavaH; one by

whom that isremembered as a matter of habitual recollection is

tadbhaava-bhaavitaH. Since the last thought is thus the cause of

acquiring the next body-

 

tasmaatsarveshhu kaaleshhu maamanusmara yudhya cha .

mayyarpitamanobuddhirmaamevaishhyasyasa.nshayaH .. 7..

 

7. Therefore, think of Me at all times and fight. There is no doubt

that by dedicating your mind and intellect to Me, you will attain Me

alone. tasmaat, therefore; anusmara, think of; maam, Me, in the way

prescribed by the scriptures; sarveshhu kaaleshhu, at all times; and

yudhya, fight, engage yourself in war, which is your own (caste)

duty. asa.nshayaH, there is no doubt in this matter; that arpita-mano-

buddhih, by dedicating your mind and intellect; mayi; to Me; eshyasi,

you-you who have thus dedicated your mind and intellect to Me,

Vasudeva-will attain; maam eva, Me alone, as I shall be remembered.

[When the Lord instructs Arjuna to think of Him, and at the same time

engage in war, it may seem that He envisages a combination of

Knowledge and action. But this is not so, because when one thinks of

all actions, accessories and results that come within the purview of

the mind and the intellect as Brahman, it is denied that actions etc.

have any separate reality apart from Brahman. Therefore no

combination is involved here.]

 

Besides,

abhyaasayogayuktena chetasaa naanyagaaminaa .

paramaM purushhaM divya.n yaati paarthaanuchintayan.h .. 8.. 8.

 

O son of Prtha, by meditating with a mind which is engaged in the

yoga of practice and which does not stray away to anything else, one

reaches the supreme Person existing in the effulgent region. paartha,

O son of Prtha; anu-chintayan, by meditating, i.e. contemplating in

accordance with (anu) the instruction of teachers and scriptures;

chetasaa, with a mind; abhyaasa-yogayuktena, engaged in the yoga of

practice-abhyasa, practice, consists in the repetition of the same

kind of thought, uninterupted by any contrary idea, with regard to Me

who am the object of concentration of the mind; that practice itself

is yoga; the mind of a yogi is engrossed(yuktam) in that itself; with

a mind that is such, and na anya-gaamina, which does not stray away

to anything else which is not inclined to go away to any other

object; yaati, one reaches; the paramam,supreme, unsurpassed;

purushham, Person; divyam, existing in the effulgent region (divi),

in the Solar Orb. And, to what kind of a Person does he go? This is

being stated:

 

kaviM puraaNamanushaasitaaraM aNoraNiiya.nsamanusmaredyaH . sarvasya

dhaataaramachintyaruupaM aadityavarNaM tamasaH parastaat.h .. 9..

 

9. He who meditates on the Omniscient, the Ancient, the Ruler,

subtler than the subtle, the Ordainer of everything, of inconceivable

form, effulgent like the sun, and beyond darkness-(he attains the

supreme Person). yaH, he who, anyone who; anusmaret, meditates on;

kavim, the Omniscient, the Knower of things past, present and future;

puraaNam, the Ancient, the Eternal; anushasitaram, the Ruler,the Lord

of the whole Universe; aNiiya.nsam, subtler; aNoh, than the subtle;

dhaataaram, the Ordainer; sarvasya, of every-thing-one who grants the

fruits of actions, in all their varieties, individually to all

creatures; achintya-ruupam, who is of inconceivable form-His form,

though always existing, defies being conceived of by anybody; aaditya-

varNam, who is effulgent like the sun, who is manifest as eternal

Consciousness like the effulgence of the sun; and parastaat, beyond;

tamasaH, darkness-beyond the darkness of delusion in the form of

ignorance-(he attains the supreme Person). This verse is to be

connected with the earlier itself thus: 'by meditating (on Him)....he

attains Him.' Further,

 

prayaaNakaale manasaa.achalena bhaktyaa yukto yogabalena chaiva .

bhruvormadhye praaNamaaveshya samyak.h sa taM paraM purushhamupaiti

divyam.h .. 10..

 

10. At the time of death, having fully fixed the Prana (vital force)

between the eyebrows with an unswerving mind, and being imbued with

devotion as also the strength of concentration, he reaches that

resplendent supreme person. prayaaNa-kaale, at the time of death;

after first bringing the mind under control in the lotus of the

heart, and then lifting up the vital force-through the nerve going

upward-by gradually gaining control over (the rudiments of nature

such as) earth etc. [space, air, fire, water and earth.] and after

that, samyak, aaveshya, having fully fixed; praaNam, the Prana (vital

force); madhye, between; the bhruvoH, eye-brows, without losing

attention; achalena manasaa, with an unwavering mind; he, the yogi

possessed of suchwisdom, yuktaH, imbued; bhaktyaa, with devotion,

deep love; ca eva, as also; yoga-balena, [Yoga means spiritual

absorption, the fixing of the mind on Reality alone, to the exclusion

of any other object.] with the strength of concentration-i.e; imbued

with that (strength) also, consisting in steadfastness of the mind

arising from accumulation of impressions resulting from spiritual

absorption; upaiti, reaches; tam, that; divyam, resplendent; param,

supreme; purushham, Person, described as 'the Omniscient, the

Ancient,' etc. The Lord again speaks of Brahman which is sought to be

attained by the process going to be stated, and which is described

through such characteristics as, 'What is declared by the knowers of

the Vedas,'etc.: [to be cotd.

 

For Gita Dhyana Shlokas/Mantras and Mahatmya

/message/advaitin/6987

 

Adi Shankara's commentary, translated by Swami Gambhirananda, at URL:

advaitinGita/Shankara1/gmbCH6.htm

 

 

Swami Chinmayananda's commentary at URL:

advaitinGita/Chinmaya/COMM6.HTM

[Guest guest]

praNAm prabhujis

Hare Krishna,

 

Please clarify me, whenever the supreme godhead addresses *me* in BG

verses, whether it should be understood as formless, attributeless

*Self/parabrahman* or else Sri Krishna bhagavan himself with his mangala

rUpa. I have read in Sri chinmayananda's commentary on BG, that *me=Self*,

Swamy ParthasArathy also endorses this view in his discourse which I

attended recently.

 

Thanks for your kind clarification in advance.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

When we go to a temple, we see formless

attributeless 'Self/parabrahman' as Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, Ganesa,

Lakshmi, Saraswati, Durga, etc., When the Lord addresses "me," he

represents everthing that we can conceive of and nothing is left off!

Rama, Krishna and the names of other Godhead are the means to reach

the goal - "SELF." We entered this universe in the form of 'infants,'

slowly grow both physically and spiritually to get better perspective

of the purpose of our life and the ultimate goal of our life. Our

understanding of the ultimate reality depends on the level of our

spiritual maturity and that varies by person, the environment and

time.

 

In Chapter 11, to witness the Visvarupa Darshan of Lord Krishna,

Arjuna was provided by the Lord with 'divine vision.' As ordinary

human beings, we can only visualize Him with names and forms and this

message in spelled out in many verses of chapters 7 to 12. Swami

Chinmayanandaji is a great devotee of Lord Krishna and I am not

surprised to see him endorsing the view point in support of your

contention. The formless and attributeless Parabrahman is the

instrument which enable us to see the names and forms!

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

> praNAm prabhujis

> Hare Krishna,

>

> Please clarify me, whenever the supreme godhead addresses *me* in

BG

> verses, whether it should be understood as formless, attributeless

> *Self/parabrahman* or else Sri Krishna bhagavan himself with his

mangala

> rUpa.

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

The verse # 5 contains an important message from the Lord on his

minimum expectation from each of us:

 

antakaale cha maameva smaranmuktvaa kalevaram.h .

yaH prayaati sa madbhaavaM yaati naastyatra sa.nshayaH .. 5..

 

The Lord says even at the last moment of our life (time of death) if

we remember Him, we are assured of liberation from birth and death!

But His statement though appear so simple is very complicated. It is

simple because all that we need to do is call `Rama' or `Krishna'

or `Jesus' or `Allah' at the last moment of our life. It is

complicated because that none of us know the exact moment of our

death with certainty. What is the best way to guarantee the license

for liberation? The one and only way to remember Him at the time of

death is remember Him all the time!! Mahatma Gandhi is a great

example who uttered the word "Hey Ram" when he was shot and it was

possible for him because he remembered Him all the time. The Hindus

found a simple solution for remembering Him during the last moment.

Every Hindu child was affectionately called by Divine Names such as

Rama, Krishna, Govinda, Shiva, Gopala, Saraswati, Lakshmi, Parvati,

etc. As long as keep the company of friends and relatives all the

time, we are likely to remember the Lord in Namarupa all the time

including at the time of death.

 

A spiritual person on the contrary sees the Lord in everything that

he perceives and he/she remembers Him all the time. Most importantly,

we need to remember that only clear route for human salvation is to

grow spiritually and reach the ultimate plateau.

 

The point is to show that birth in the human species is attained by

the grace of God only after the Jiva has passed through eight million

and four hundred thousand sub-human species. If we fail to realize

God even after obtaining such a rare opportunity, there is no knowing

what a sorry plight we may come to and when we will be blessed with a

human body again! Realizing this, we should turn to account human

life up to the very last moment, if we care to do so. Thus making a

special occasion of the hour of death, the Lord says that to say

nothing of those who think exclusively of Him at all times, even

those who remember Him even at the last moment of life undoubtedly

will realize Him. Finally, we should realize the fact that even

remembering Him at the last moment is only possible with His Grace!

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> Namaste:

>

> What is the best way to guarantee the license

> for liberation? The one and only way to remember Him at the time of

> death is remember Him all the time!! Mahatma Gandhi is a great

> example who uttered the word "Hey Ram" when he was shot and it was

> possible for him because he remembered Him all the time

 

 

Pranaam,

 

Many wonder how it is possible to keep 'remebering' HIM whilst going

about our daily activities (Rajasic). The best example given is about

how a classical singer 'tunes' himself to the Shruti of the Tanpura

(accompanying instrument continuously playing in one tone). He is

singing/playing enchanting music but at ALL times is in tune with the

Shruti --- never goes out of tune with it!

 

So also maybe we can try and tune ourselves to HIM in all our

activites.

 

Regards,

 

Kamal

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Repetitive references in these verses to the body are a little

baffling to me. Earlier, in the second chapter, Lord Krishna already

mentioned that "even a little of this knowledge will protect one from

the worst of fears – the fear of death". The crux of the message

there was that one is never born and that which is unborn cannot

die. Thus, both birth and death are non-existent.

 

Logically too, that should be our understanding. My birth is not my

experience as I have no memory of it. Freudians believe that one can

be made to regress to the birth experience through hypnosis. What

one experiences on the hypnotist's couch may well be the birth

experience. However, we can't be very certain of it. Even if it

were a replay of a buried memory, it is an experience occurring in

the present and, therefore, cannot be called an original birth

experience. My death also cannot be my experience. The only thing

that I really know is that I should have born like the others whom I

see taking birth around me and I should die one day like the others

whom I see dying around me. Thus, my birth and death are mere

thoughts or concepts as far as I am concerned and, as such, things

not to pay undue attention to.

 

Viewed against the above, my body should be of little consequence to

me. It is a thing I am unaware of most of the time and even when I

am aware of it, I am aware of only parts of it. There is no complete

body awareness at any time. If one deliberately tries to conjure it

up, then it is just only a thought – an image on the mind's screen.

 

Thus, I "die" several times a day even in my waking life (not to

speak of the time when I am asleep), because I am unaware of my body

for long durations although I am involved in a lot of activities.

 

Then again, our body awareness is not our choice. We are simply

aware of it. So, our "leaving" it is also not our choice. It simply

happens if and when it happens.

 

Then, why should our Geetha talk so much about leaving this

inconsequential body and that too as late as in the 8th chapter? To

me it looks like an unnecessary emphasis that does not promote the

real message of the book. Why should one, who has

practiced "abhyaasa" for long be told to await the "departure time"

and be prepared for it by fixing the prana between the eyebrows

etc.? Where are the eyebrows for one who has enough vedantic

knowledge to perceive the inconsequential nature of his so-called

body? He has never entered his body and, therefore, he does not have

to leave it. He just "sees" his body whenever that happens as he sees

the rest of the world. Body or no body, he simply exists and will

continue to exist for he is verily nothing but existence.

 

It may be argued that the body was still important in reference to

Arjuna's spiritual development at that point of time. Can that be

accepted? Lord Krishna's advice to Arjuna was to fight on

(yudhdhya). It is well known that a person to whom the body is not

of much consequence fights well. All our martyrs were in that

mode. So, the Lord should not have called attention to the body

right here.

 

The story of Ajamila is just a story with a message that tells us

that even the unintentional thought of the Supreme can save us.

There is a similar story now told about rudraksha also. A sinner,

they say, was saved from the lord of Death by Siva's bhoothaganas

because there was a rudraksha tree at the place where he died. These

are just stories that should not be read too much into. True, at the

time of death, Ajamila called out to Narayana, his son. Judging from

the sensuous life he led, it is certain that he did not have the

thought of the real Narayana at that time. He just needed his son to

fulfill some material want.

 

However, this story and other similar stuff have had a tremendous

influence on the Hindu psyche. Life-long sinners continue to sin in

the hope of calling the magical name of Narayana at the time of

their "departure" in order that they are assured of a seat in

Vaikunda. Some of them wear rudraksha too. To help them, lest they

forget to call Narayana or are unable to do so due to any reason

whatsoever, their relatives light the lamp at their bedside and pour

over holy books like Ramayana to ensure a guided trip to heaven.

 

In my teens, I remember, a great maternal uncle of mine was passing

away. The guy had been unconscious for some time. There were signs

that he had already boarded his departure flight. A girl in the

family was summoned to his bedside to read the Ramayana. As she was

reading the text loud, uncle opened his eyes and looked around. From

the anxious expression on his face, there was no doubt he understood

what was going on! Isn't that gruesome? Were they helping that

chap? Our concern for this so-called departure from the body is

somewhat ridiculous.

 

It all stems from our belief, right or wrong, that there is a

continuing sequence of lives and deaths occurring in a very

chronological order. Those who propagate this belief quote even

Sankara's "Punarapi Jananam, Punarapi Maranam, Punarapi Jananeejatare

Sayanam" from the famous Bhaja Govindam. However, they forget the

fact that if this verse is literally accepted, we have no way to

explain our population explosion unless we are generous enough to

grant human births to all the viruses and bacteriae that we kill by

the trillions every day!

 

This is not to question the possibility of rebirth but to point out

that a more logical and saner explanation should be available.

Advaitically, all that is experienced is within me. So, the role or

life that I should take is also already within me. We have seen that

I have no birth or death. It is only logical then to conclude that I

don't need to "die" in order to enter another role in line with my so-

called "last thought". I also don't have to be "born" either. I

just naturally slide into that role and, when I am in that new role,

there will exist with it the usual concepts of a "birth" (jananam

following a jananeejatare sayanam) and "death" (maranam). That I get

terrified by these concepts is my ignorance. When I am able to see

through them, I become a seer. Then those concepts and the roles are

inconsequential to me. The abhyaasa gets over here when this

realization dawns and unshakably sinks in.

 

Even the chronology is unimportant here. The life warranted by

my "last thought" can be anywhere in the past or future as past and

future have no relevance from the point of view of total

Consciousness which I really Am. I can "die" this instant in the

21st Century and be "born"(like Kenji's deer) amidst the dinosaurs of

the Jurassic era if my so-called "last thought" is Spielberg! I

don't retrograde on my spiritual evolution in the process. Lord

Krishna has already guaranteed that in the Geetha.

 

As Prof. Murthyji pointed out in his post, our remembrance of the

Truth should be spontaneous remembering without recalling.

References to the body do not help here. We must cease referring to

it at all if we are to progress. Narayana should be a constant,

effortless and spontaneous remembrance. Then only we can cease to be

Ajamilas and attain the immortality of Narada. Narayana! Narayana!

May the Geetha grant us that immortality which we already are anyway.

 

The objective of this post is not to oppose the Geetha in any sense.

I felt that there is an apparent inconsistency here, which perhaps

can be accounted for or explained through "a not very literal

interpretation" of the verses. The bvbpune.org interpretation kindly

provided by SunderHji (Post # 14222) takes up the discussion with

great clarity of thought. However, it also gets weighed down by

frequent references to death, birth, body and practices.

 

This post contains views expressed by me previously on this forum. I

needed to repeat them in order to present my point of view

effectively. Please bear with me. I shall be more than pleased if

this provokes thoughtful insights from members.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

___________________________

 

advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

>

> atha ashhTamo.adhyaayaH . Chapter 8 : Verses 5-10 [with Shankara-

> Bhashya, tr. Sw.Gambhirananda] akshara-brahma-yogaH. The Yoga of

the

> Imperishable Absolute.

>

> antakaale cha maameva smaranmuktvaa kalevaram.h .

> yaH prayaati sa madbhaavaM yaati naastyatra sa.nshayaH .. 5..

>

> 5. And at the time of death, anyone who departs by giving up the

body

> while thinking of Me alone, he attains My state. There is no doubt

> about this.

[Guest guest]

--- madathilnair <madathilnair wrote:

>The crux

> of the message

> there was that one is never born and that which is

> unborn cannot

> die. Thus, both birth and death are non-existent.

 

Namaste,

 

How about this for a summary:

'Birth and death are events only noted by others.'

 

 

Re. the remembering of birth process comments.'

Two years ago I was enduring a very long and unwanted

lunch appointment. After three hours of clock watching

and social chit-chat the lady next to me picked up a

comment I had made on reported near-death

experiences(NDEs) and whispered, 'I have not spoken

about this before but I can remember being born.'

She had not spoken of this previously in her life,

fearing ridicule. She spoke of light, colour and

sound. As a professional musician and artist she felt

that it would be possible to play or paint the moment

but not express it in words.

We have yet to meet again but it is our intention to

do so. She is an English lady with no past study of

Eastern or Western philosophy so somehow I want to

questioin the relationship of 'I' with the light and

sound without putting my ideas into her head.

 

I just mention this as an extension to Madathilnair's

posting. It is not totally relevant to the Gita

Satsangh but my first statement above is intended for

that,

 

Om sri ram

 

 

ken Knight

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

http://health.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Kenji,

 

Granting that this lady experienced her "birth", we ought to ask her

what preceded "the light, colour and sound". I am sure that was her

earliest memory and she can't go beyond that. My earliest memory is

from somewhere around age 3 - the passing away of an old lady in the

neighbourhood and my enquiring with my concerned paternal aunt what

the hallabaloo was all about. Can I say that that was my birth as I

don't remember anything that happened before that incident? Whenever

I endeavour to go beyond that, what I confront is a blank. So, can I

conclude that my "birth" was just a "blank"?

 

Kindly don't forget to tell us what happens when you meet this lady

again. I would be much interested.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

______________________

 

advaitin, ken knight <hilken_98@Y...> wrote:

 

After three hours of clock watching

> and social chit-chat the lady next to me picked up a

> comment I had made on reported near-death

> experiences(NDEs) and whispered, 'I have not spoken

> about this before but I can remember being born.'

> She had not spoken of this previously in her life,

> fearing ridicule. She spoke of light, colour and

> sound. As a professional musician and artist she felt

> that it would be possible to play or paint the moment

> but not express it in words.

> We have yet to meet again but it is our intention to

> do so. She is an English lady with no past study of

> Eastern or Western philosophy so somehow I want to

> questioin the relationship of 'I' with the light and

> sound without putting my ideas into her head.

[Guest guest]

--- madathilnair <madathilnair wrote:

> Can I say that that

> was my birth as I

> don't remember anything that happened before that

> incident? Whenever

> I endeavour to go beyond that, what I confront is a

> blank. So, can I

> conclude that my "birth" was just a "blank"?

 

Namaste again,

I understand your point about the 'blank' before the

first memory. This is similar to my query as to the

'neti, neti' process which, being an action, will go

on and on, like shaving milliseconds off the search

for the beginning of the 'big-bang'. Somehow something

must take place to dissolve this linear

superimposition on consciousness; insight,

transcendence, grace?

What I want to ask this lady is, when did she first

feel an identification with the 'birth process'? I

would rather that she answer through her music or

painting but how can one put such a question without

implying the next step: could she then play/paint me

what was before that identification. Our next meeting

will be part of some related research that is looking

at states of consciousness and if anything interesting

turns up it will be on a web-page that is nearly

ready.

There is a long-dead English poet, so we cannot

question him, called Thomas Traherne who writes of his

experience of being born.

However for us, away from such speculation, maybe we

should seek the underlying meaning of the phrase

'twice-born'.

 

Meanwhile we had better return to Gita and Shankara's

commentary on verse 10: (trans. Dr.Warrier)

'First master the mind in the lotus of the heart; then

causing the life force, prANa, to enter the space

'between the eyebrows', viz. the vertical artery, by

stages, and vigilantly conquering the planes of yogic

experience, the Yogin who knows, reaches the supreme

Spirit of Light.'

 

Om sri ram

 

ken Knight

 

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

http://health.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Kenji.

 

Thanks for your prompt response.

 

Regarding Dr. Warrier's translation and other similar

interpretations, I would still like to believe that there is a lot of

symbolism involved even in Sankara's bhaashya and that we should look

for deeper meanings in the terminology used. I am fondly

anticipating some discerning mind to come up with just such a

consistent and satisfying explanation.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

____________________

 

In advaitin, ken knight <hilken_98@Y...> wrote:

> Meanwhile we had better return to Gita and Shankara's

> commentary on verse 10: (trans. Dr.Warrier)

> 'First master the mind in the lotus of the heart; then

> causing the life force, prANa, to enter the space

> 'between the eyebrows', viz. the vertical artery, by

> stages, and vigilantly conquering the planes of yogic

> experience, the Yogin who knows, reaches the supreme

> Spirit of Light.'

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

When Arjuna asked Krishna [Gita 2:7] to teach with certainty

wherein lay his 'shreyas' (Summum Bonum) as he had surrendered

himself to him, Krishna had several options for answers:

 

1. Teach Arjuna in the manner of Dakshinamurty to Sanatkumara, and

others, by silence.

 

2. Teach in the manner of Uddalaka Aruni to Shvetaketu in Chandogya

upanishad. Even there he repeats 'tattvamasi' at least three times.

 

3. Teach in the manner of Rishis Narada and Shandilya of total

surrender.

 

4. Teach as only Krishna did, for 'lokasa.ngraha', for the most dull-

witted to the brightest among those were on the 'pravritti marga',

those who can trudge along at an ant's pace, and those who can fly

like an eagle.

 

Option 1 was unsuitable to the occasion.

Option 2 could have ended with Chapter 2:38.

Option 3 needed only verse 18:66

Option 4 was needed to teach the generations to come the essence of

pravritti marga.

 

The word abhyaasa occurs 4 times in the Gita; the phrase/command

'shR^iNu' (listen!) 10 times (!) culminating in 18:72 'have you heard

with an attentive mind?'

 

In 10:25 Krishna declares his 'vibhuti':

yaj~naanaaM japayaj~no.asmi ......

 

'... among sacrifices I am japa (silent repetition)....'

 

May the 'eagles' co-exist with the 'ants', for both have the same

source and the same destination!

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste.

>

> Repetitive references in these verses to the body are a little

> baffling to me. Earlier, in the second chapter, Lord Krishna

already

> mentioned that "even a little of this knowledge will protect one

from

> the worst of fears – the fear of death". The crux of the message

> there was that one is never born and that which is unborn cannot

> die. Thus, both birth and death are non-existent.

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

The point I raised has not been answered.

 

Both ants and eagles have bodies. If advaita is to really sink in,

the body-sense must go. This is applicable to both ants and eagles.

And, above all, one does not need a body-sense to tread the path of

karma yoga. There are many yogis amidst us who go about their daily

chores with perfect yogic detachment and equanimity while their minds

are fully immersed in constant "rememberance without recollection."

They do not seem to sit and direct their prana to the point between

the eyebrows and most of them do not advise us to do so either. Ant

or egale, even Arjuna could not afford to do that. He had a war to

fight. In Arjuna's situation in the beginning of Chapter 8, Lord

Krishna's frequent references to the body seemed inappropriate (to me

at least). I thought there may be a subtler or more symbolic

connotation to words like prana, point between eye-brows, kalevaram,

thyakthwa, etc. than what is normally understood and I anticipated

someone to pop up with an unconventional answer. I did so in the

right spirit of discussion. I don't think Lord Krishna would expect

anyone of us to hold a brief for him at the cost of missing a proper

interpretation of what he said. Least of all, he would not like us

to start a class war between "ants" and "eagles" on this issue.

 

To conlcude, without looking at the book, I can say "cha" is the most

repeated word there! How is it?

 

Regards.

 

Madathil Nair

 

___________________________

In advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

>

> 4. Teach as only Krishna did, for 'lokasa.ngraha', for the most

dull-

> witted to the brightest among those were on the 'pravritti marga',

> those who can trudge along at an ant's pace, and those who can fly

> like an eagle.

>

> > Option 4 was needed to teach the generations to come the essence

of

> pravritti marga.

>

> The word abhyaasa occurs 4 times in the Gita; the phrase/command

> 'shR^iNu' (listen!) 10 times (!) culminating in 18:72 'have you

heard

> with an attentive mind?'

>

> May the 'eagles' co-exist with the 'ants', for both have the same

> source and the same destination!

[Guest guest]

--- madathilnair <madathilnair wrote:

> Namaste.

>

> Repetitive references in these verses to the body are a little

> baffling to me. Earlier, in the second chapter, Lord Krishna

> already

> mentioned that "even a little of this knowledge will protect one

> from

> the worst of fears – the fear of death". The crux of the message

> there was that one is never born and that which is unborn cannot

> die. Thus, both birth and death are non-existent.

>

> Logically too,

 

Interesting discussions on these slokas. Here from my understanding.

 

1. First understanding of death and birth - as Shree Nair discussed.

 

In Yakshaprasna-s (Mahabharat)- yaksha askes YudhishhTara - what is

the wonder of all wonders? - YudhishhTara replies - we see everyday

people are being born and people dying. Yet everyone feels and acts

as though they are going to live for ever - by agrandizing - I want

this - I want that - This is mine etc. - ahankaara and mamakaara.

 

In the sixth chapter Arjuna asks Krishna what happens to the one who

dies without achieving liberation. He gave up enjoyment of this life

in the pursuit of moksha but he did not gain the eternal happiness

either. He lost both. Arjuna was concerned about the death. Krishna

ofcourse answered as Nair pointed out that death is only an incident

in continuum.

 

But Death is feared most by all and the Giitopadeshaam stated with

Arjuna lamenting at the would be death of his teachers and kith and

kin in his own hands. - Hence death of the body has greatest

importace for most of unrealized souls. Here logic that Shree Nair

discusses operates only if one can be logical when emotions are

outpouring. If one can be absolutely logical then those samsaara will

not be there since we know logically that happiness comces from

within and is not there in objects or it does come with objects but

yet we go after objects.

 

2. Why Krishna emphasizes that even the last thought - antakaalepi.

If we analyze clearly, the next field of experince a jiiva will go

after is dictated by that most powerful thought germinating at that

time. Thought flow involves direction and direction is set by the

vasana-s. If the last thought is on the Lord and if is powerful

groove that formed by samksaara then that is the direction the

thinking will go if that is the most potential for germination.

Hence even though if one is no mentally involved in that direction,

the last thought that could germinate could be towards the Lord if he

has that samskaara form the past - the past includes not only the

current life but previous thousands of lives in the past.

 

3. The message is clear. To insure that the last thought is going to

be in that direction one has to have that samskaara before. This is

beautifully stated by Shree Kulashekhara Alwar in his Mukundamaala.

...... praaNaprayaana samaye kaphavaata pittaiH

kanThaavarodhanam kritau smaraNam kutaste||

therefore - chintayaami harimeva santatam ...

 

when one is leaving dying - all the organs of actions are not under

control - mind and intellect have become weak - How can I think of

you at that time. To insure that - I want to think of you all the

time right now.

 

For that we need to have Mumukshutvam - a burning desire for

liberation. Continous study of the Scriptures, and sat sangh is the

only way - sat sanghatve nissanghatveam.

 

Hari OM

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

http://health.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

The power of cha should not be underestimated!

 

Gita :

 

sa sa.nnyaasii cha yogii cha na nirgnirna cha akriyaH || 6/1 ||

 

amR^ita.n chaiva mR^ityushcha sadasach{}chaahamarjuna || 9/19 ||

 

 

Rudra Chamakam :

 

namo virupebhyo viruupebhyashcha vo namo .....4...

 

 

All the techniques described in the Gita are meant for the 'ants'

and 'eagles' [manda-madhyama-tivra viveka-vairaagya] to get rid of

the 'deha-buddhi'; those who have achieved aatma-buddhi are blessed

indeed through past efforts in the same direction.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> To conlcude, without looking at the book, I can say "cha" is the

most

> repeated word there! How is it?

>

> Regards.

>

> Madathil Nair

>

>

[Guest guest]

SunderHjiiiiiiii,

 

Admitted you are a wizard when it comes to digging out references.!

 

I need your help why our B. G. relapses into physiological references

so often (e.g. 4.29, 5.27, 6.13, 8.10 etc). Honestely, my friend, I

am a little bit out of breath here! I want your explanation. Please

do come with something very fresh. OK? And, don't antagonize me. I

am just joking. I do enjoy this very much.

 

Thanks and regards.

 

Madathil Nair

____________________________

 

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> The power of cha should not be underestimated!

>

> Gita :

>

> sa sa.nnyaasii cha yogii cha na nirgnirna cha akriyaH || 6/1 ||

>

> amR^ita.n chaiva mR^ityushcha sadasach{}chaahamarjuna || 9/19 ||

>

>

> Rudra Chamakam :

>

> namo virupebhyo viruupebhyashcha vo namo .....4...

>

>

> All the techniques described in the Gita are meant for the 'ants'

> and 'eagles' [manda-madhyama-tivra viveka-vairaagya] to get rid of

> the 'deha-buddhi'; those who have achieved aatma-buddhi are blessed

> indeed through past efforts in the same direction.

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunder

>

>

>

>

>

> advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

>

> > To conlcude, without looking at the book, I can say "cha" is the

> most

> > repeated word there! How is it?

> >

> > Regards.

> >

> > Madathil Nair

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> I need your help why our B. G. relapses into physiological

references

so often (e.g. 4.29, 5.27, 6.13, 8.10 etc).

Honestly, my friend, I

am a little bit out of breath here!

 

*****You have chosen the right verses to learn how to prevent being

out of breath!!

> I want your explanation. Please

do come with something very fresh. OK?

 

*****If you find anything fresh in what I say, there will not be any

references to back it up!!

> And, don't antagonize me.

 

*****Advaitic sadhana makes this an impossibility!!

 

> I am just joking.

I do enjoy this very much.

 

*****God was the first humorist! As long as I have His grace, and I

don't take myself too seriously, I shall never lack this sense!!

======================================================================

 

 

All the verses that refer to physiological processes refer to the

practice of Raja Yoga, i.e. Patanjali Yoga Sutras. Swami

Vivekananda's lectures

on this perhaps are the best introduction to this subject. For its

practice, only a true guide can instruct one.

 

[i do not have first-hand knowledge of this practice; I would like to

urge someone on the list who practises Raja Yoga to clarify

Madathilji's questions].

 

The fundamental premise of this approach is that control of the mind

is a prerequisite for the completion of the Spiritual destiny, or

Self Realization; and since the mind is comprised of thoughts, and

thoughts affect the breathing pattern, a mastery of the breathing

would in turn help the control of the mind.

 

[An advaitic interpretation of the process is found in

Aparokshanubhuti and Tejobindu Upanishad.]

 

======================================================================

 

apaane juhvati praaNaM praaNe.apaanaM tathaapare .

praaNaapaanagatii ruddhvaa praaNaayaamaparaayaNaaH .. 4\.29..

 

This verse, in the context of verse #4:32, enumerates the varieties

of actions that are performed, and can be made sacred as a yaj~na, a

sacrifice.

Basically a component of Patanjali's Raja-Yoga [ashtanga yoga]

======================================================================

 

sparshaankR^itvaa bahirbaahyaa.nshchakshushchaivaantare bhruvoH .

praaNaapaanau samau kR^itvaa naasaabhyantarachaariNau .. 5\.27..

 

This verse is an introduction to Chapter 6, dhyaana yoga; again, a

practice in Raja Yoga.

======================================================================

 

samaM kaayashirogriivaM dhaarayannachalaM sthiraH .

saMprekshya naasikaagraM svaM dishashchaanavalokayan.h .. 6\.13..

 

One more step in Raja Yoga.

======================================================================

 

prayaaNakaale manasaa.achalena

bhak{}tyaa yuk{}to yogabalena chaiva .

bhruvormadhye praaNamaaveshya samyak.h

sa taM paraM purushhamupaiti divyam.h .. 8\.10..

 

This verse indicates the possibility of controlling the process of

physical 'death', and absorption into the Supreme Spirit. A

description of Swami Vivekananda's last moments exemplify this.

 

======================================================================

 

P.S. In Humor Only!!

 

http://ai.iit.nrc.ca/~andre/humour/warning.humour

 

"Godelian Product Disclaimer:

 

As it has been proven that there are many true but unproveable

statements, the manufacturer cannot be held liable for any of its

unsupported product claims.

 

Penrose Addendum to Godelian Disclaimer:

 

Despite the above warning, the manufacturer is confident that all its

product claims are true because of its mystically acquired and

computationally unrepudiable organic intuition. Unfortunately, the

manufacturer cannot in any way demonstrate that its intuition is

correct, or indeed that it has an intuition."

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sunderji,

 

Thanks for all the pains you have taken to give me a very prompt

response.

 

To be honest, what I enjoyed most was your P.S. That represents a

very very sensible attitude.

 

Regarding the referneces to Rajayoga in B.G., I have found that some

others call it Kriyayoga. Is there an essential difference between

the two as they are understood and as they are practised? And then

there are these Kundalini guys.

 

With my lay understanding and from my experiences during prayers and

meditation (and even at other times, when I am really immersed in

some activity), I can appreciate that there is some truth in all

this. But, as you said, I would not like to trudge the path of

practising any of these yogas without competent supervision, which in

my present circumstances is nowhere in sight. Also, I am a lot

sceptical about the results, firstly because of the conflicting

claims made by "practitioners" (Courtesy for the word : Murthyji),

secondly because our philosophy has given us ample scope to reach the

goal through devoted jnaana and karma, and thirdly because of my

conviction that, even if one opts for the paths shown by these yogas,

there can't be any self-realization unless and until jnaana takes

place thorugh contemplation on scriptural statements.

 

This is perhaps the reason why I found the quoted references in B.G.

somewhat of out of place. Also, I thought it was a little odd to

refer to these yogas in a battlefield when the required jnaana about

the nature of samsaara and karma yoga have already been well

expounded. Also, I felt there perhaps was a hithertofore unfathomed

subtler meaning to the verses than meets the eyes. You might have

noticed that most intellectualizers do not devote much attention to

these verses but dwell much longer on other parts which demand deeper

philosophical exposition. Are they just closing their eyes and

pretending not to have seen these references lest they might be asked

for a deeper explanation?

 

Sunderji, you said: "If you find anything fresh in what I say, there

will not be any references to back it up!!". I would like to hear

you on this. That is this satsangh all about, no? I don't need any

references in support. What I am looking forward to seeing is a free

exchange of ideas within the framework of advaita. That is within

our reach if only we throw our walking sticks, wave our arms and walk

briskly in the advaitic breeze.

 

Thanks once again to you and Sadanandaji for the invaluable feedback.

 

Regards.

 

Madahtil Nair

_

 

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

> P.S. In Humor Only!!

>

> http://ai.iit.nrc.ca/~andre/humour/warning.humour

>

> "Godelian Product Disclaimer:

>

> As it has been proven that there are many true but unproveable

> statements, the manufacturer cannot be held liable for any of its

> unsupported product claims.

>

> Penrose Addendum to Godelian Disclaimer:

>

> Despite the above warning, the manufacturer is confident that all

its

> product claims are true because of its mystically acquired and

> computationally unrepudiable organic intuition. Unfortunately, the

> manufacturer cannot in any way demonstrate that its intuition is

> correct, or indeed that it has an intuition."

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunder

[Guest guest]

These are all excellent points Nairji. In practice, the path of Yoga

and Advaita cannot be separated in a contrived manner. In Bhagavad

Gita, Sri Krisna, in giving instructions to Arjuna and through Arjuna

to all of us shows full awareness of human strengths and limitations

and outlines many different paths in which aspects of both the yogic

and the advaitic perspectives are intertwined.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste Sunderji,

>

> Thanks for all the pains you have taken to give me a very prompt

> response.

>

> To be honest, what I enjoyed most was your P.S. That represents a

> very very sensible attitude.

>

> Regarding the referneces to Rajayoga in B.G., I have found that

some

> others call it Kriyayoga. Is there an essential difference between

> the two as they are understood and as they are practised? And then

> there are these Kundalini guys.

>

> With my lay understanding and from my experiences during prayers

and

> meditation (and even at other times, when I am really immersed in

> some activity), I can appreciate that there is some truth in all

> this. But, as you said, I would not like to trudge the path of

> practising any of these yogas without competent supervision, which

in

> my present circumstances is nowhere in sight. Also, I am a lot

> sceptical about the results, firstly because of the conflicting

> claims made by "practitioners" (Courtesy for the word : Murthyji),

> secondly because our philosophy has given us ample scope to reach

the

> goal through devoted jnaana and karma, and thirdly because of my

> conviction that, even if one opts for the paths shown by these

yogas,

> there can't be any self-realization unless and until jnaana takes

> place thorugh contemplation on scriptural statements.

>

> This is perhaps the reason why I found the quoted references in

B.G.

> somewhat of out of place. Also, I thought it was a little odd to

> refer to these yogas in a battlefield when the required jnaana

about

> the nature of samsaara and karma yoga have already been well

> expounded. Also, I felt there perhaps was a hithertofore

unfathomed

> subtler meaning to the verses than meets the eyes. You might have

> noticed that most intellectualizers do not devote much attention to

> these verses but dwell much longer on other parts which demand

deeper

> philosophical exposition. Are they just closing their eyes and

> pretending not to have seen these references lest they might be

asked

> for a deeper explanation?

>

> Sunderji, you said: "If you find anything fresh in what I say,

there

> will not be any references to back it up!!". I would like to hear

> you on this. That is this satsangh all about, no? I don't need any

> references in support. What I am looking forward to seeing is a

free

> exchange of ideas within the framework of advaita. That is within

> our reach if only we throw our walking sticks, wave our arms and

walk

> briskly in the advaitic breeze.

>

> Thanks once again to you and Sadanandaji for the invaluable

feedback.

>

> Regards.

>

> Madahtil Nair

> _

>

> advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

> > P.S. In Humor Only!!

> >

> > http://ai.iit.nrc.ca/~andre/humour/warning.humour

> >

> > "Godelian Product Disclaimer:

> >

> > As it has been proven that there are many true but unproveable

> > statements, the manufacturer cannot be held liable for any of its

> > unsupported product claims.

> >

> > Penrose Addendum to Godelian Disclaimer:

> >

> > Despite the above warning, the manufacturer is confident that all

> its

> > product claims are true because of its mystically acquired and

> > computationally unrepudiable organic intuition. Unfortunately, the

> > manufacturer cannot in any way demonstrate that its intuition is

> > correct, or indeed that it has an intuition."

> >

> >

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste Madathilnair:

 

Though the purpose of any Satsangh is free exchange of ideas, I agree

with Sunderji that some directions are always implied.

 

 

When we are inside a dark cave to find an opening, a torch light or

candle light or just a match stick is quite useful. When nothing is

available, we have no other alternative other than free roaming! For

a meaningful Satsangh, knowledgeable people, the scriptures, books

and quotations from Jnanis will guide us to stay within the framework

of advaita. A candle brings more light inside the dark cave and to

light up the candle, we also need a match stick. With the lighted

candle, we can liberate from the darkness to reach the open Sun Light!

 

As advaitins, we want to enjoy Freedom and also want to sustain the

freedom for ever. But our saints and sages have provided us 'Dharma'

to protect our freedom! The king can enjoy his freedom if he built a

stong Fort to withhold assaults from his enemies. The strongest Fort

for all of us is built by observing "Dharma" without any compromise.

When enclose ourselves with Dharma, we can enjoy the freedom for ever

and this is only Bhagavad Gita is known as the "Dharma Sastra." Gita

also has another title "Yoga Sastra" that is a way to sustain and

maintain Dharma. The message of Gita is sound and clear: Build the

stongest Fort - "Dharma" and maintain through "Yoga" and Enjoy the

Eternal Freedom with peace and happiness!!

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste Sunderji,

>

> .....

> Sunderji, you said: "If you find anything fresh in what I say,

there

> will not be any references to back it up!!". I would like to hear

> you on this. That is this satsangh all about, no? I don't need any

> references in support. What I am looking forward to seeing is a

free

> exchange of ideas within the framework of advaita.

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Sorry for my misplaced enthusiasm.

 

Thanks for saying openly what you want me to do. Will endeavour my

best to cooperate and adhere to your wish as best as and if I can.

If not, you have my word - I will keep quiet.

 

Madathil Nair

_________________________

 

 

advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> Namaste Madathilnair:

>

> Though the purpose of any Satsangh is free exchange of ideas, I

agree

> with Sunderji that some directions are always implied.

>

>

> When we are inside a dark cave to find an opening, a torch light or

> candle light or just a match stick is quite useful. When nothing is

> available, we have no other alternative other than free roaming!

For

> a meaningful Satsangh, knowledgeable people, the scriptures, books

> and quotations from Jnanis will guide us to stay within the

framework

> of advaita. A candle brings more light inside the dark cave and to

> light up the candle, we also need a match stick. With the lighted

> candle, we can liberate from the darkness to reach the open Sun

Light!

>

> As advaitins, we want to enjoy Freedom and also want to sustain

the

> freedom for ever. But our saints and sages have provided

us 'Dharma'

> to protect our freedom! The king can enjoy his freedom if he built

a

> stong Fort to withhold assaults from his enemies. The strongest

Fort

> for all of us is built by observing "Dharma" without any

compromise.

> When enclose ourselves with Dharma, we can enjoy the freedom for

ever

> and this is only Bhagavad Gita is known as the "Dharma Sastra."

Gita

> also has another title "Yoga Sastra" that is a way to sustain and

> maintain Dharma. The message of Gita is sound and clear: Build the

> stongest Fort - "Dharma" and maintain through "Yoga" and Enjoy the

> Eternal Freedom with peace and happiness!!

>

> warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

>

> advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> > Namaste Sunderji,

> >

> > .....

> > Sunderji, you said: "If you find anything fresh in what I say,

> there

> > will not be any references to back it up!!". I would like to

hear

> > you on this. That is this satsangh all about, no? I don't need

any

> > references in support. What I am looking forward to seeing is a

> free

> > exchange of ideas within the framework of advaita.

[Guest guest]

My dear Sri Madathilnair:

 

namaste,

 

You are doing just fine and you are stimulating discussions and that

is one of the fine tradition of Satsangh. It seems that you seem to

have some misunderstanding of what I have stated in my previous

posting. Swami Chinmayanandaji for example always insisted that

during Satsangh, the participants should express using their own

words instead of just reading from the book. What you have expressed

is with the same spirit and is well taken.

 

As a coordinator of this Satsangh, it is my duty to emphasize the

interrelationship between our expression and the words of saints and

sages. When we read and understand the words of sages and saints, we

should still express them using our own words because each of us have

different perceptions. Different perspectives will give us greater

opportunity to comprehend the sayings of the saints and sages. You

are learned scholar and please feel free express your understanding

of Gita and by all means use your own words and phrases!

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste.

>

> Sorry for my misplaced enthusiasm.

>

> Thanks for saying openly what you want me to do. Will endeavour my

> best to cooperate and adhere to your wish as best as and if I

can.

> If not, you have my word - I will keep quiet.

>

> Madathil Nair

> _________________________

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

It is interesting to carefully analyse the use of ‘tasmAt’ (=

therefore) by the Lord in the gItA. Every time He uses it,

particularly at the beginning of the first quarter or the third

quarter of a sloka, he gives a verdict, that sums up in one sentence

what he has been conveying in the previous slokas. And consequently,

it happens that every time He uses it this way, there is a change of

topic of discussion from the next sloka. In fact one can stretch

one’s imagination to even venture to say that the collection of all

these ‘tasmAt’ slokas could give us quickly a glimpse of the total

gItA. Since one of these ‘tasmAt’ slokas occurs in the verses under

discussion now (8 -7), I take this opportunity to point this out and

also refer to the similar verses that occurred up to this chapter.

 

2-25, 2-27, 2-30: In each of these three cases the Lord is winding

up an argument why Arjuna should not grieve. In #25, it is the

Vedanta argument that is wound up; in #27, it is the commonplace

argument that whatever is born has to die; and in #27, it is the

argument of mystery about the goings-on of the resident of the body.

In each case, after the sentence that begins with ‘tasmAt’, the topic

changes to a different line of aregument.

 

2-37: The argument that as a kshatriya, withdrawing from the

battlefield is out of question, is wound up and the topic thereafter

shifts to buddhi-yoga.

 

2-50: The buddhi-yoga point is wound up with the famous sentence:

‘Therefore, O Arjuna, devote yourself to yoga. Yoga is skill in

action.’ From sloka 52 onwards, the sthita-prajnA discussion begins.

 

2-68: After the monumental statements about the characteristics of a

sthita-prajnA, He winds it up, in one sentence, by giving the

bottomline of the sthita-prajnA elaboration: ‘Therefore, O Arjuna,

the knowledge of his is steady whose senses are completely restrained

from sense-objects’. The next four slokas are an overflow of the same

thus constituting a winding up of the whole chapter.

 

3-15: Therefore the all-pervading brahman ever rests in sacrifice

(yajna). This is the bottom line of the discussion that started in

the beginning of the chapter and proceeded like this: No one can sit

quiet, without doing anything. Every action has to be done with the

yajna attitude. The yajna is a kind of reciprocity obligation

between humans and the divines. Without doing the yajnas if you

consume what is given to you in the world, it is nothing but living

in sin and eating sin. From food come forth beings. From rain food is

produced. From yajna arises rain. And yajna is born of action. Action

comes forth from brahman in the aspect of purusha in prakriti, that

is, the creator and originator of all mutability; and, finally, this

manifestation of purusha in prakriti comes from the akshara, that is

The Immutable. Therefore the all-pervading brahman from which all

work is born is established in yajna. Having thus summed up the train

of thought He, from the next sloka, goes to the macro-aspect of the

theory, namely, this grand cycle of cosmic action and how we should

react to this.

 

3-19: This is a beautiful summing up of the entire karma-yoga given,

in the previous three verses (and also in all that goes before). The

wheel thus set revolving is the basis of the whole of creation. It is

the law of reciprocal self-sacrificing service. This is the first

principle of the gita way of life. However, (3-17) for the man who

rejoices only in the self, who is satisfied with the self, and who is

content in the self alone, verily there is nothing to do. (3-18) For

him there is no importance whatever in what is done and what is not

done, nor does he depend on any being for any object. Now comes the

denoument in 3-19. Therefore, without attachment do thou perform

action that (anyway) has to be done (as your duty). For, by

performing action without attachment one reaches the Supreme. From

the next verse, other reasons are being given why one should perform

action.

 

3-41: When Arjuna asks the question why man commits sins, in spite of

himself, as if forced by something, The Lord replies that it is all

because of Anger and Desire that holds sway over man. He explains how

this happens and winds it up by giving us the recipe of where to

begin for any kind of ascent to spirituality. Therefore, Arjuna, says

He, controlling the senses is your first job; first kill this sinful

thing, the destroyer of knowledge and realisation.

 

4-15: Here the word ‘tasmAt’ does not occur in the beginning of the

sloka but still this is in fact a punchline sloka of the argument

that Action has to be done but with the thought that ‘I am not the

doer’ so that the action does not result in bondage. And, as

everywhere else, the next sloka takes up a new trend of thought, by

his saying: ‘I will now tell you about Action and Inaction’.

 

4-42: This is again a winding up of all the thoughts of the fourth

chapter. Therefore, with the sword of knowledge cut asunder the doubt

of the self born of ignorance residing in thy heart, take refuge in

Yoga.

 

And now comes our present 8-7: This, as we have already seen is the

bottom line of the injunction on How to die.

 

The remaining slokas of the gita that begin with ‘tasmAt’ will be

seen by us as we proceed with the gItA satsangh.

 

praNAms to all advaitins.

Yours, profvk

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

http://health.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> Namaste.

>

> It is interesting to carefully analyse the use of `tasmAt' (=

> therefore) by the Lord in the gItA.

 

Namaste,

 

Excellent point. Relating this to the previous messages on

this thread, starting with Nair-ji's questions on the place of

certain verses in this scripture, I like to visualise the Gita as the

Himalayan ranges, with several peaks inviting the adventurers to

climb, from any direction, on trodden or untrodden paths, showing

vistas of breath-taking grandeur, at various levels of camp-grounds!

 

One can hope to prepare oneself for one or more expeditions in

the process. Having a map helps, a guide is even better, but the

exertion has to be one's own!

 

In the words of Vivekachudamani, the three rare gifts of human

birth (manushhyatvam), desire for freedom (mumukshhutvam), guidance

of the sages (mahaapurushhasa.nshraya), should not be wasted.

 

The Gita, being a literary production, with the specific aim

of giving in a capsule form the entire Vedic dharma, deals with many

topics that can be arguably out of place on a battle-field as

depicted. In the metaphorical context, Arjuna's questions are those

that would occur to a 'spiritual warrior', and a bird's eye-view of

the whole process of 'victory' is presented. Other warriors have thus

a wide choice of selecting those techniques that answer their own

particular circumstances.

 

The final advice of the Guide is 18:63 'having heard the most

secret teachings from me, deliberate on them, and then do as you see

fit'.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

I join Sri Ramji in thanking Sri Nairji for his warm and yet

brilliant, thought provoking, original, and eloquent posts -- at

times tinged with humorous insights.

 

We are fortunate to have someone of Sri Nairji's caliber and

understanding among us.

 

Often what we reflect on, worry about, meditate on or devote

ourselves to during the day appears to us at night when the conscious

mind is not under control.

 

Similarly, Lord Krishna has said that what we devote ourselves to and

meditate on during our life becomes prominent at the time of death

because as death approaches our organs of perception are less under

our conscious control.

 

Socrates also said that a philospher's life is preparation for death.

 

One time a Sadhu asked Sri Ramana what will his future be. Sri Ramana

said something like "What is in the present will be in the future."

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

 

 

advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> My dear Sri Madathilnair:

>

> namaste,

>

> You are doing just fine and you are stimulating discussions and

that

> is one of the fine tradition of Satsangh. It seems that you seem

to

> have some misunderstanding of what I have stated in my previous

> posting. Swami Chinmayanandaji for example always insisted that

> during Satsangh, the participants should express using their own

> words instead of just reading from the book. What you have

expressed

> is with the same spirit and is well taken.

>

> As a coordinator of this Satsangh, it is my duty to emphasize the

> interrelationship between our expression and the words of saints

and

> sages. When we read and understand the words of sages and saints,

we

> should still express them using our own words because each of us

have

> different perceptions. Different perspectives will give us greater

> opportunity to comprehend the sayings of the saints and sages. You

> are learned scholar and please feel free express your understanding

> of Gita and by all means use your own words and phrases!

>

> warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

> advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> > Namaste.

> >

> > Sorry for my misplaced enthusiasm.

> >

> > Thanks for saying openly what you want me to do. Will endeavour

my

> > best to cooperate and adhere to your wish as best as and if I

> can.

> > If not, you have my word - I will keep quiet.

> >

> > Madathil Nair

> > _________________________

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Thanks Ramji for your clarification. There is no more any

misunderstanding. I will continue my participation in the usual

manner. I don't have any other place to go.

 

Harshaji - I have no words to thank you for your good words about

me. I doubt if I deserve all that.

 

Sunderji - Thanks for your patience. I am beginning to see the

light. That there is so much ignorance in me is also Grace. May I

reword Harshaji's quote of Socrates: "Ignorance is the preparation

for Enlightenment."? Andrew Cohen, please note if this would help you

answer your perennial conundrum: "What is Enlightenment?". No wonder

the wise said "Ignorance is knowledge".

 

And Prof. Krishnamurthyji - that monumental personal anecdote of

your dear father's departure from the mortal plane is a great

spiritual lesson. Immense thanks for sharing it with us. In my

childhood, after reading Ajamila's story, I had taken a vow to always

repeat the name of Rama. (At that itme, Rama the archer used to

fascinate me more than flutist Krishna. I was monkeyish too in my

behaviour to have had an affinity towards the friend of monkeys!)

Sadly, I grew up to become an atheist and it took me about forty

years of life to realize that I became an atheist just for the style

of it. Thus, my atheism was actually a preparation for advaita.

With your post, I think I now have come a full circle back to dear

Narayana. May your great dad and you yourself, Sir, inspire us

advaitins more and more on our path to self-realization. I believe

my intemperate prodding on the "last thought" issue has made you come

out with this great personal experience. That is also Grace in

operation.

 

May we find Grace "every which way" we look! Lokaha samasthaha

sukhino bhavanthu. As I pointed out somewhere before, the

word "look" is related to "loka" (world), "lochanam"

(eye), "aalokana" (looking at or seeing) etc. in Sanskrit. "Lokaha"

(worlds) result from "aalokana" (looking at or seeing). Of course,

here "seeing" includes all sense organs and senses without organs, if

at all any (Courtesy: Knight Shyamalan). So, back again

to "naanachchidra ghatodarasthitham...." and Dakshinamoorthy from

Prof. Krishnamoorthyji. Blessed indeed are us advaitins!

 

Pranams to all.

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

advaitin, "harshaimtm" <harshaimtm> wrote:

> I join Sri Ramji in thanking Sri Nairji