dharma and saMskAra

[Guest guest]

I have a question regarding dharma and saMskAra. Apologies if some readers

think that this has been covered in earlier discussions but it is a fairly

specific question so should not cause lots of responses.

 

It is my understanding (I think from Swami Chinmayananda) that nitya

(obligatory, daily duties) and naimittika (occasional, special duties)

karmas, because they are not prompted by desire, do not generate any

saMskAra. But it was also my understanding (from the gItA) that performance

of svadharma (one's own duty) was a key aspect of karma yoga. The reasoning

behind this, I thought, was that one's own status in life was a result of

prArabdha saMskAra and that the process of 'burning this up' (or at least

not generating any new AgAmin saMskAra) was brought about by acting in

accordance with svadharma. Does svadharma only ever fall into the category

of kAmya karma?

 

Can anyone clarify this please?

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

It was indeed a long wait for you Shri Waite to reappear (pun

intended).

 

Here is my commonsense answer. Authorities might disagree though.

 

There is no karma that is not prompted by desire. If Vyasa wrote the

BG, he wanted somebody to read it and benefit thereby. NishkAma

karma means action that does not bind, i.e. action performed with

prasAdabuddhi. It does not mean action performed without desire,

which is impossible. Perform action - the result may be exactly what

you expected, or just the opposite, or less than what you expected or

more than what you wanted. When the result comes, accept it as

prasAda coming from the lord without complaints. If action

(swadharma or otherwise) is performed with this attitude, it does not

bind.

 

Don't then worry about the balance in your account. Let it burn or

evaporate. That is not your business anymore. The Lord will take

care of it because you have placed it at His Feet (I personally like

Her Feet). If He kicks it, it will be an enjoyable sight! Lord

sometimes plays football and He is always better than our best.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

> I have a question regarding dharma and saMskAra.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

> I have a question regarding dharma and saMskAra.

> Does svadharma only ever fall into the category of kAmya karma?

 

Namaste,

 

Based on Gita's analysis of the subject, the answer would

be 'No'. Here are the relevant verses:

 

dhyaayato vishhayaanpu.nsaH saN^gasteshhuupajaayate .

saN^gaatsa.njaayate kaamaH kaamaatkrodho.abhijaayate .. 2\.62..

 

krodhaadbhavati saMmohaH saMmohaatsmR^itivibhramaH .

smR^itibhra.nshaad.h buddhinaasho buddhinaashaatpraNashyati .. 2\.63..

 

yastvindriyaaNi manasaa niyamyaarabhate.arjuna .

karmendriyaiH karmayogamasak{}taH sa vishishhyate .. 3\.7..

 

tasmaadasak{}taH satataM kaaryaM karma samaachara .

asak{}to hyaacharankarma paramaap{}noti puurushhaH .. 3\.19..

 

yaGYadaanatapaHkarma na tyaajya.n kaaryameva tat.h .

yaGYo daanaM tapashchaiva paavanaani maniishhiNaam.h .. 18\.5..

 

etaanyapi tu karmaaNi saN^ga.n tyak{}tvaa phalaani cha .

kartavyaaniiti me paartha nishchitaM matamuttamam.h .. 18\.6..

 

shreyaansvadharmo viguNaH paradharmaatsvanushhThitaat.h .

svabhaavaniyataM karma kurvannaap{}noti kilbishham.h .. 18\.47..

 

asaktabuddhiH sarvatra jitaatmaa vigataspR^ihaH .

naishkarmyasiddhiM paramaaa.n sa.nnyaasenaadhigachchhati .. 18\.49..

 

Thus 'desire' is the third step on the way to perdition -

especially if not in accordance with the 'shaastras' -, and svadharma

is the royal path to liberation, because it is always in accord.

 

'gahanaa karmaNo gatiH' - profound indeed is the course

of 'action'.

 

yaGYaarthaatkarmaNo.anyatra loko.aya.n karmabandhanaH .

tadartha.n karma kaunteya muk{}tasaN^gaH samaachara .. 3\.9..

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste Dennisji.

 

On re-reading your post I felt that my reply last night was a little

off the point. Sorry about it. Happy that SunderHji has quoted the

relevant verses from BG. Happy also that you are back after your

sabbatical.

 

Regards.

 

Madathil Nair

 

_______________

 

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

> I have a question regarding dharma and saMskAra.

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Some more verses for cogitation:

 

dharmaaviruddho bhuuteshhu kaamo.asmi bharatarshhabha .. 7\.11.

 

yaH shaastravidhimutsR^ijya vartate kaamakaarataH .

na sa siddhimavaap{}noti na sukhaM na paraaM gatim.h .. 16\.23..

 

tasmaach{}chhaastraM pramaaNaM te kaaryaakaaryavyavasthitau .

GYaatvaa shaastravidhaanok{}ta.n karma kartumihaarhasi .. 16\.24..

 

ashaastravihitaM ghoraM tapyante ye tapo janaaH .

dambhaaha.nkaarasa.nyuk{}taaH kaamaraagabalaanvitaaH .. 17\.5..

 

karshhayantaH shariirasthaM bhuutagraamamachetasaH .

maa.n chaivaantaHshariirastha.n taanvid.hdhyaasuranishchayaan.h .. 17

\.6..

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

>

the

> relevant verses from BG.

> advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

> > I have a question regarding dharma and saMskAra.

[Guest guest]

Thanks to Madathil and Sunder for their response.

 

I don't disagree with Madathil but it does not appear to answer the specific

question.

 

As regards Sunder's references:

 

BG 2\62 and 2\63 refer to desired objects, i.e. kAmya karma.

BG 3\7 relates to controlling the senses, i.e. kAmya karma.

3\19 refers to acting without attachment, i.e. kAmya karma.

18\5 and 6 refer to acts of sacrifice and their purifying effect. Certainly

these could be referring to nitya or naimittika but no specific reference is

made to these. In fact, Swami Chidbhavananda in his commentary on 18\5

specifically says "The varieties of kAmya karma that he performs...". Nor do

these appear to relate to svadharma specifically.

18\47 refers to svadharma and "duties ordained by one's own nature". Again

no reference to nitya or naimittika.

18\49 is about obtaining liberation through renunciation.

3\9 seems to be the most relevant in that it does not differentiate at all

between types of action, simply saying that all should be performed in the

spirit of yaj~na. However, attachment to action seems synonymous with desire

which makes it kAmya karma again.

 

In conclusion, I remain very confused. You say, Sunder, that the answer

would seem to be 'no'. i.e. svadharma could be nitya or naimittika as well

as kAmya. But all of the references you have given seem to be talking about

kAmya or, at least, to be unclear.

 

I suppose there are three separate questions:

1. Are nitya and naimittika karmas ever prompted by desire?

2. Can they generate saMskAra? (Presumably they must if the answer to the

first question is yes.)

3. Are they separate from svadharma or does the latter include them?

 

Regards,

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

 

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

But all of the references you have given seem to be talking about

> kAmya or, at least, to be unclear.

>

> I suppose there are three separate questions:

> 1. Are nitya and naimittika karmas ever prompted by desire?

 

******Yes; the desire, if part of svadharma and in accord with the

shastras, is part of traversing the path to moksha.

 

> 2. Can they generate saMskAra? (Presumably they must if the answer

to the

> first question is yes.)

 

******Yes. They nullify the past bad ones, and by creating new ones

that are conducive to liberation [to transcend the sukR^ita and

dushhkR^ita.

> 3. Are they separate from svadharma or does the latter include them?

 

*******It includes them. [b.G. 18:41-45]

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

For an authoritative discussion of the subject, the following

chapters will be helpful:

 

 

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part12/chap9.htm

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

>

> I suppose there are three separate questions:

> 1. Are nitya and naimittika karmas ever prompted by desire?

> 2. Can they generate saMskAra? (Presumably they must if the answer

to the

> first question is yes.)

> 3. Are they separate from svadharma or does the latter include them?

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all the gItA references, Sunder. It all seems reasonably clear

now. Indeed, this would have been my interpretation to begin with had it not

been for the idea I had from somewhere about Swami Chinmayananda's

statement. Presumably he did in fact never say this (that nitya and

naimittika karma do not generate saMskAra because they are not prompted by

desire). Do you have any knowledge of this, one way or the other, Sadananda?

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

Presumably he did in fact never say this (that nitya and

> naimittika karma do not generate saMskAra because they are not

prompted by

> desire).

 

Namaste,

 

The word saMskAra seems to be inappropriate in this context! It

denotes a purifying act. The correct word would be 'vAsanA'. Swamiji

could not have said this, as he is quite clear in his commentary on

Gita, 3:6-9, and 4:17:

 

advaitinGita/Chinmaya/COMM3.HTM

 

advaitinGita/Chinmaya/COMM4.HTM

Destructive activities are those that are totally condemned by the

Shastras, because they tend to devolve the individual, and those are

termed in our text books as Vi-karma. The constructive activities

(Karma) can be of three kinds: Nitya --- constant duties, Naimittika -

-- special duties on special occasions, and Kamya --- work purposeful

and self-determined for winning a desirable result or reward.

 

Built upon the ancient Vedic doctrine, Krishna here expounds an

elaborate theory of self-development. He says that life is but a name

for continuous activities. These activities can fall within two

distinct classifications as Karma and Vi-karma. Lord Krishna's advice

to Arjuna is to avoid the forbidden actions (Vi-karma) and to pursue

the constructive and creative activities of self-development (Karma).

In this scientific analysis, without any formality, or mental

reservation, Krishna totally rejects "inactivity" (A-karma).

 

It is necessary, it is said here, that a true seeker who is trying to

live a diligent life, contributing to his material progress and to

his spiritual self-development, must necessarily know this triple

classification of life, considered as a bundle of activities.

 

Even after so beautifully defining the three clear and distinct

classifications, Krishna admits that, for an ordinary man it is not

easy to distinguish the one from the other, and to readily and

successfully classify all his activities under these three headings,

because, Krishna says, "THE NATURE OF KARMA IS IMPONDERABLE. "

 

In this statement lies the secret suggestion that an action is to be

evaluated not merely on its face value but after a sincere

consideration of the motive working behind it. If the motive, or

desire, or intention of one is pure and constructive, then the action

too is noble and meritorious for that particular individual. Since in

this evaluation of actions the individual factor is so very

predominant, one must agree with Krishna over the imponderability of

the nature of Karma.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

--- Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

> Thanks for all the gItA references, Sunder. It all seems reasonably

> clear

> now. Indeed, this would have been my interpretation to begin with

> had it not

> been for the idea I had from somewhere about Swami Chinmayananda's

> statement. Presumably he did in fact never say this (that nitya and

> naimittika karma do not generate saMskAra because they are not

> prompted by

> desire). Do you have any knowledge of this, one way or the other,

> Sadananda?

>

> Dennis

 

 

Dennis - sorry I missed the discussions and your questions.

 

Sunder has beautifully answered with giita references. As he rightly

pointed out that samskaara is normally used for purification acts.

Vasanas are the impressions that left behing due to any ego-centric

actions. It is not the action per sec but the attitude in the action

that makes types of vasana-s that it leaves.

 

Karma-s can be nayamita karma-s which are obligatory duties - nitya

daily type and naimittika - occational types. Both are obligatory -

It is said that one incurrs sin by not doing the obligatory duties.

It was Arjuna's obligation to fight the righteous war when called far

since he was enjoying up to that time tax-payer's money for his

support as kshatriya prince. It is like getting salary as an army

officer but runnning away from the duty when one has to fight for the

nation. Daily obligation can be - taking bath to keeping the body,

mind, and budhhi clean - in sandhyavandanam - that is exactly done as

part of prayer - paapebhyo rakshantaam - a daily prayer to cleanse

oneself so that mind starts with a clean slate - What do I gain by

takin bath - nothing but I may get rid of all the dirt that is

hanging - snaanam is samskaara - It is an obligatory duty -

obligation to oneself and to his surroudings-family and frieds. Daily

prayer is also an obligation to those because of whom we are enjoying

all the benifits of the life - including the fore fathers to gods or

phenomenal forces to the rest of the society. Once one understand

the meaning one can adopt it to his needs and requirements.

 

Does one gain vasana-s in doing obligatory duties - by not doing one

will gain vasana-s since one knows one has to do it and when it is

not done there is alreay intellectual conflect between the mind and

intellect - that divergence is vasana or sin. If it is done with an

attitude of ego then again it will leave vasana-s too. It is like

this - if I am ticklish - I feel like scratching - but that is

natural response to the body - But if I start enjoying the scratching

then it becomes a pleasuable action and I may end up doing it to the

degree that I may damage my skin - just to give a gross example. One

has to work to support the family - an obligatory action. But one

can become a workaholic to the degree that it becomes a vasana.

Sunder has correctly brought to our attention the attitude in the

action becomes very important in all these. The niyamita karma

depends on what one think one is - If I think I am a father then I

have a fatherly duties - a gruhasta - has gruhasta duties - an

employee has his duties etc. There are also veda vihita karma -

obligatory duties insisted by veda-s.

 

Kaamya karam - are those propelled by self-centered desires - the

desires are manefestations of vasana-s. We have them and advice not

to have them is of no use. The question is how to deal with them -

those that can be negated by intellectual analysis - if they can go

away that is best - one is convinced due to health reasons not to eat

sweets or not to smoke etc. If if they are powerful - then get the

help form the Lord - Offer the desires to him - or perform the action

and offer it to him - If I have a desire for sweet - make them and

offer it to the Lord - it becomes naivadyam and once it is offered

that which returns back is prasaadam - as Nairji mentioned. Prasadam

should not be eaten alone - it has to be shared. Also whatever the

prasaada it has to be accepted with reverence since it comes from the

Lord - sweetish - saltish- bitter - fruit - flower - water does not

matter - one accepts whatever is offered with reverential attitude.

Also prasadam one does asks for second serving.

 

There are nishiddha karma - actions that one should avoid - these are

adharmic actions that heart others.

 

If by mistake one does those nishhiddakaram there are praayaschitta

karma -actions that help repair the worong doing - like saying

(feeling) I am sorry when one hurts others by mistake - which also

involves not repeating that mistake again.

 

The best ofcurse is givng up all the kartRitva bhaava - that notion

that I am the doer. When one realizes that he is never a doer - Then

all the above discussions become acadamic.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Thanks, Sunder, that is a very clear exposition. Just one thing you said for

which I would welcome clarification:

 

* The word saMskAra seems to be inappropriate in this context! It denotes a

purifying act. The correct word would be 'vAsanA'.

 

I have always used these terms effectively interchangeably. My understanding

was that actions performed with any desire for a result (whether for oneself

or others) produced saMskAra and that this, in turn, affected future

actions. Again, colloquially, I have said that one tends to act (i.e. out of

habit) according to one's vAsanAs.

 

Monier-Williams does not seem to make a clear distinction either:

 

saMskAra - the faculty of memory , mental impression or recollection ,

impression on the mind of acts done in a former state of existence

 

vAsanA - the impression of anything remaining unconsciously in the mind

 

Is it really the case that the correct usage is saMskAra = good, vAsanA =

bad? Can you provide any authoritative reference for this?

 

Regards,

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

Just one thing you said for

> which I would welcome clarification:

>

> * The word saMskAra seems to be inappropriate in this context! It

denotes a

> purifying act. The correct word would be 'vAsanA'.

>

> I have always used these terms effectively interchangeably.

> Monier-Williams does not seem to make a clear distinction either:

>

> saMskAra - the faculty of memory , mental impression or

recollection ,

> impression on the mind of acts done in a former state of existence

>

> vAsanA - the impression of anything remaining unconsciously in the

mind

>

> Is it really the case that the correct usage is saMskAra = good,

vAsanA = bad?

 

Can you provide any authoritative reference for .....

 

 

Namaste,

 

This is the complete definition from M-W :

 

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon

Entry saMskAra

 

Meaning m. (ifc. f. %{A}) putting together , forming well , making

perfect , accomplishment , embellishment adornment , purification ,

cleansing , making ready , preparation , dressing (of food) ,

refining (of metals) , polishing (of gems) , rearing (of animals or

plants) Gr2S3rS. MBh. Ka1v. , &c. ; cleansing the body , toilet ,

attire Hariv. ; forming the mind , training , education R. Ragh. ;

correction (also in an astronomical sense Su1ryas.) , correct

formation or use of a word Nir. Sarvad. ; correctness , purity (esp.

of pronunciation or expression) MBh. R. &c. ; making sacred ,

hallowing , consecration Mn. MBh. &c. ; a sacred or sanctifying

ceremony , one which purifies from the taint of sin contracted in

the , womb and leading to regeneration (12 such ceremonies are

enjoined on the first three or twice-born classes in Mn. ii , 27 ,

viz. 1. %{garbhA7dhAna} , 2. %{puM-savana} , 3. %{sImanto7nnayana} ,

4. %{jAta-karman} , 5. %{nAmakarman} , 6. %{niSkramaNa} , 7. %{anna-

prA7zana} , 8. %{cUDA-karman} , 9. %{upanayana} , 10. %{kezA7nta} ,

11. %{samAvartana} , 12. %{vivAha} , qq. vv. ; accord. to Gaut.

viii , 8 &c. there are 40 Sam2ska1ras) Gr2S. Mn. MBh. &c. (IW.188 ;

192 &c. RTL. 353) [1120,3] ; the ceremony performed on a dead body

(i.e. cremation) R. ; any purificatory ceremony W. ; the faculty of

memory , mental impression or recollection , impression on the mind

of acts done in a former state of existence (one of the 24 qualities

of the Vais3eshikas , including %{bhAvanA} , the faculty of

reproductive imagination "') Kan2. Sarvad. (IW. 69) ; (pl. , with

Buddhists) a mental conformation or creation of the mind (such as

that of the external world , regarded by it as real , though actually

non-existent , and forming the second link in the twelvefold chain of

causation or the fourth of the 5 Skandhas) Dharmas. 22 ; 42 ; a

polishing stone MW.

 

Etymologically, saM = auspicious, kAra from kR^i = act(ion)

 

40+ saMskAra-s are recognised by the shastras, that help one on one's

spiritual journey. Colloquially, saMskAra is used as any 'impression'

on the mind, thus losing its etymological exactness.

 

Entry

 

vAsanA

 

Meaning

 

f. the impression of anything remaining unconsciously in the mind ,

the present consciousness of past perceptions , knowledge derived

from memory S3am2k. Ka1v. Katha1s. ; fancy , imagination , idea ,

notion , false notion , mistake (ifc. , e.g. %{bheda-v-} , the

mistake that there is a difference) ib. Ra1jat. Sarvad. &c. ;

thinking of , longing for , expectation , desire , inclination

Katha1s. ; liking , respectful regard Bha1m. ; trust , confidence

W. ; (in math.) proof , demonstration (= %{upapatti}) Gol. ; a kind

of metre Col. ; N. of Durga1 BhP. ; of the wife of Arka ib. ; of a

Comm. on the Siddha7nta- s3iroman2i.

 

====================================================================

 

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part16/chap1.htm

 

Samskara

(HinduDharma: The Forty Samskaras)

I used the word "samskara" above [in the previous chapter - of part

Fifteen ]. I also explained its meaning according to the Tarka-sastra

(science of logic) as "impression on memory". But this is not how the

word is generally understood. "Sam

(s)"=well; "kara"=making. "Samskara" means making something good,

refining or purifying it.

 

The dharmasasthras deal with such samskaras as purify a man so as to

make him fit to be united with the Paramathman. From the

dharmasastras we know in detail the forty samskaras that are based on

the Kalpa-sutras and that are to be performed by a man during his

life's journey.

=====================================================================

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part1/chap2.htm

 

Papa, sinful action, is two-pronged in its evil power. The first

incites us to wrong-doing now. The second goads us into doing evil

tomorrow. For instance, if you take snuff now you suffer now. But

tomorrow also you will have the same yearning to take the same. This

is what is called the vasana that comes of habit. An effort must be

made not only to reduce such vasana but also cultivate the vasana of

virtue by doing good deeds.

 

 

vAsanA is impression of habit, bad as well as good.

 

[i hope Kanchi Paramacharya is acceptable to you as an authority.]

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadananda,

 

Many thanks for your thoughts, here. The point about the bad feeling when

you do not do what is perceived to be your duty being 'sinful' was useful.

Can I just ask for one further point of clarification? You said "Kaamya

karma - are those propelled by self-centered desires". I was assuming that

so-called unselfish acts, for example, (i.e. doing something specifically

for another person) unless carried out in a spirit of sacrifice (purely in

response to the need) were also kaamya. Is this not so?

 

Dear Sunder,

 

Thanks for the extract from MW - I really should have gone back to the book

rather than rely on the 'pocket' electronic version before asking the

question - my apologies! Certainly, that does seem quite definitive. I will

have to revise my statements on the subject in the book slightly, now.

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

--- Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

> Can I just ask for one further point of clarification? You said

> "Kaamya

> karma - are those propelled by self-centered desires". I was

> assuming that

> so-called unselfish acts, for example, (i.e. doing something

> specifically

> for another person) unless carried out in a spirit of sacrifice

> (purely in

> response to the need) were also kaamya. Is this not so?

 

Dennis

 

Self-centered actions or ego centric actions involve - I and I want.

It is not just based on who is the beneficiary of the results - that

is whether the results are for my benefit or for the benefit of the

larger society. For example, if I built an orphanage it may be an

unselfish action. But it can still be ego-centric action as I and I

want - These come under 'punya' or merits. vasana-s get accumulated

in these actions too.

 

To neutralize these only we need to bring Iswara and offer the

results to the Lord just as we made sweets and offered them to the

Lord as naivedyam or kaikaryam. Then the attitude of prasaada buddhi

etc follows. This will neutralize the vasana-s. Vasana-s neutralized

become an ornament like the snake as bhuushhaNa for the Lord Siva.

 

Truly spontaneous actions are slightly different. When you are

walking and suddenly see a child drowing in a pool and immediately

you jump into water to save the child. - in the court of law - the

action is not pre-meditated. Actually Iswara himself take the help

of your upaadhi's and acts. That is a truely spontaneous action.

 

Now when a jiivan mukta acts - it is also not 'his' kaamaya karma,

since he is no more there - what is there is upaadhiis and being used

by Iswara for loka kalyaaNa. In that case even the premeditated

actions also comes under Iswara ichha. In principle all actions

correctly should be considered as Iswara ichcha reather jiiva ichcha.

That is knowledge, since jiiva has no independent stand. In

Vishwaruupa Krishna shows that the war is being faught by the Lord

himself. Arjuna is just an instrument in the action. But Arjuna as

jiiva bringsin his whims and fancies and assumes a kartRitva bhaava.

Therefore vasana-s will found a local locus.

 

Hope this is clear.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

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