Beliefs and Concepts

[Guest guest]

Religions and philosophies are made up of beliefs and concepts. These are

leftovers from the direct or absolute truth experienced by the founders of

these religions. Usually these leftovers have no more truth left in them.

 

My question is whether Advaita Vedanta has fallen into the same rut and if

not what keeps the finger still pointed at the truth? In other words do the

followers of Advaita Vedanta still look at where the finger is pointing or

have they begun to worship the finger?

 

With Love

Jan

[Guest guest]

Namaste Jan:

 

Welcome to the list and thanks for the thought provoking first post

on 'belief.'

 

Here is my understanding of Advaita Philosophy regarding Truth: Let

me provide you with a well known analogy. The dreamer (we are all

dreamers almost all the time!) frightened by a nightmare that a tiger

is pouncing on him/her gets awakened by the pouncing tiger. Suddenly,

the dreamer realizes that his nightmare was not real and it was just

a dream. The pouncing tiger is responsible for realizing the truth

about the dream and Advaita Vedanta Philosophy is like the pouncing

tiger can help us to become awake. Just like the pouncing tiger, the

philosophy can help us to negate the 'unreal' from the Truth. Both

the tiger and the philosphy are helpful tools and their presence were

necessary for pointing out the truth. The question of worshiping

become irrelevant in the context of 'Truth finding mission.'

 

Coming more specific to your question, I believe that Advaita Vedanta

philophy does not advocate 'blind faith.' At the same time to

understand the core of the Advaita Philosophy, faith is quite

fundamental. As a matter of fact, faith is necessary for the

acceptance of 'any finger pointing to the Truth.' When the Truth is

known, faith just like the pouncing tiger of the dream becomes

irrelevant!

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, Jan Sultan <swork@m...> wrote:

>

> My question is whether Advaita Vedanta has fallen into the same rut

and if

> not what keeps the finger still pointed at the truth? In other

words do the

> followers of Advaita Vedanta still look at where the finger is

pointing or

> have they begun to worship the finger?

>

> With Love

> Jan

[Guest guest]

Namaste Jan Sultan-Ji.

 

With all your contribiuting associations with sites dealing with

Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi, Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj et al

and "ultimate advaita", you, Sir, are better-qualified than we

ordinary mortals to answer your very incisive question.

 

The simple answer to what keeps the finger still pointed at the truth

is that we still keep asking the question "Who am I?" That is our

mariner's compass in this sea of samsaara and an advaitin cannot

afford to lose it. We worship the one who points the finger and the

pole star pointed at. To us, both are the same and that includes the

finger and the pointing too!

 

Incidentally,in Indian mythology, there is the story of a prince

called Dhruva who loved Naaraayana. It is said that Naaraayana

ultimately saved his devotee, Dhruva, from his wicked uncle and

granted him immortality by making him the pole star. To Indians,

the pole star is Dhruva Nakshatra. Dhruva also means pole in

Sanskrit. It is, thus, the thought of Dhruva (immortality) that helps

us navigate in our turbulent seas without losing our head and way.

 

See how we keep pointing our finger at Immortality in everything that

we say and do. Dhruva, pole star, immortality, the pointing finger -

all these are archetypes from the Indian unconscious. As long as

they prod us ceaselessly, we, advaitins, will keep asking the

question "Who am I?" and keep this world lighted up. There cannot be

any "rut" in that splendour and brilliance.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

____________________ Shri Jan Sultan, to us advaitin,

Jan Sultan <swork@m...> wrote:

> Religions and philosophies are made up of beliefs and concepts.

These are

> leftovers from the direct or absolute truth experienced by the

founders of

> these religions. Usually these leftovers have no more truth left in

them.

>

> My question is whether Advaita Vedanta has fallen into the same rut

and if

> not what keeps the finger still pointed at the truth? In other

words do the

> followers of Advaita Vedanta still look at where the finger is

pointing or

> have they begun to worship the finger?

>

> With Love

> Jan

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

This was beautifully put Ram ji.

 

However I do not agree about having faith. If it was a matter of

faith, all the Americans who are turning to advaita would have

remained Christians. I myself would have remained a liberal Muslim.

 

I was an agnostic for almost 30 years. After a bout of dispassion due

to getting tired with all worldly things I had a series of mystical

experiences. Thus started my seeking. The only writings that were

able to explain everything that I had experienced were those of

Nisargadatta Maharaj. Thus my interest in Advaita.

 

Love

Jan

 

advaitin, "ramvchandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> Namaste Jan:

>

> Welcome to the list and thanks for the thought provoking first post

> on 'belief.'

>

> Here is my understanding of Advaita Philosophy regarding Truth: Let

> me provide you with a well known analogy. The dreamer (we are all

> dreamers almost all the time!) frightened by a nightmare that a

tiger

> is pouncing on him/her gets awakened by the pouncing tiger.

Suddenly,

> the dreamer realizes that his nightmare was not real and it was

just

> a dream. The pouncing tiger is responsible for realizing the truth

> about the dream and Advaita Vedanta Philosophy is like the pouncing

> tiger can help us to become awake. Just like the pouncing tiger,

the

> philosophy can help us to negate the 'unreal' from the Truth. Both

> the tiger and the philosphy are helpful tools and their presence

were

> necessary for pointing out the truth. The question of worshiping

> become irrelevant in the context of 'Truth finding mission.'

>

> Coming more specific to your question, I believe that Advaita

Vedanta

> philophy does not advocate 'blind faith.' At the same time to

> understand the core of the Advaita Philosophy, faith is quite

> fundamental. As a matter of fact, faith is necessary for the

> acceptance of 'any finger pointing to the Truth.' When the Truth is

> known, faith just like the pouncing tiger of the dream becomes

> irrelevant!

>

> warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

> advaitin, Jan Sultan <swork@m...> wrote:

> >

> > My question is whether Advaita Vedanta has fallen into the same

rut

> and if

> > not what keeps the finger still pointed at the truth? In other

> words do the

> > followers of Advaita Vedanta still look at where the finger is

> pointing or

> > have they begun to worship the finger?

> >

> > With Love

> > Jan

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "madathilnair" <madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste Jan Sultan-Ji.

>

> With all your contribiuting associations with sites dealing with

> Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi, Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj et al

> and "ultimate advaita", you, Sir, are better-qualified than we

> ordinary mortals to answer your very incisive question.

>

 

Namaste Madathil ji

 

You, Sir, are putting me in a difficult position. Most of my

contributions were as a seeker, not as a learned finder. Nowadays,

however, I like to provoke discussions primarily in order to further

my understanding and maybe helping others in advertence. I am just a

humble bodhistiva who sometimes gets carried away. Forgive me.

 

Love

Jan

[Guest guest]

Is the teaching that gravitaional force exists - a belief or a

concept left overs by those who investigated the founders of physics?

If they are leftovers, then there is no more truth left in these

gravitational force concept! sir where is your demarcation? You

could say it is objectifiable facts and one can prove. So is

Vedanta? That you are existent and conscious entity - is it provable

fact or is it a religiion or is it a concept or is it a leftovers by

those who experienced that they exist and they are consious! Please

think it over.

 

Vedanta is not a religion and particularly adviata vedanta is advaita

- meaning non-dualilism - that non - referes to not only to duality

but to -ism too! It talks about not the world not the god but about

you - whose existence is beyond ones own doubt - That you exist and

that you are conscious is not a religion sir and not a concept either

- concepts and religions take validy because you exist. Your

existence is beyond concepets and religions. The philosophy that you

mentioned is called in sanskrit - darashana - a mirrir - If you go

and stand in front of mirror sir - I can bet you are not going to

learn about the mirror but about you - While the mirrors shows you

what you are - vedanta mirror or darshana or philosophy you call it -

shows you what you really in contrast what you think your are! It

reveals your own true nature which is beyond all imaginations and

religions and that is why Vedanta is called darshana.

 

What vedanta teaches is not only you are existent entity and consious

enmtity but also entity with full of bliss. All the time you are

seeking happyness in your beliefs in joining this list serve in

criticising these concepts with jarring notes. But what vedanta

teaches is what we already know but do not realise in all our

pursuits - that happyness that we seek comes not from the world nor

from going one relition or the other but from our own natuure. It

shows that we are not only sat(existent) and chit(conscious) but

ananda (bliss) too. More than than it also logically proves that

there is nothing other than satchitananda - and that is a teaching

not a religion not a concept but a fact -Sir, You cannot point a

figer at it since you cannot point a finger at yourself - yourself

being sat chit and ananda which is a subject and not an object to

point fingers!

 

Please think it over and discover yourself the truth of yourself -

not about religions and not about concepts but about fact of your own

nature. Advaita vedanta talks teaches about your self - not about a

religion nor about concpets. About you sir - And there is no way you

can point a figner at yourself- try!

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

--- Jan Sultan <swork wrote:

> Religions and philosophies are made up of beliefs and concepts.

> These are

> leftovers from the direct or absolute truth experienced by the

> founders of

> these religions. Usually these leftovers have no more truth left in

> them.

 

 

 

 

>

> My question is whether Advaita Vedanta has fallen into the same rut

> and if

> not what keeps the finger still pointed at the truth? In other

> words do the

> followers of Advaita Vedanta still look at where the finger is

> pointing or

> have they begun to worship the finger?

>

> With Love

> Jan

>

>

>

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

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[Guest guest]

I was looking for this quote. This is what I meant.

 

"If there is a God we must see Him,

if there is a soul we must perceive it;

otherwise it is better not to believe."

—Swami Vivekananda

 

Why just believe when you can follow the pointing finger and find out for

yourself?

Ramana or Nisargadatta or Balsekar never ask anyone to believe in anything.

They insist on finding out yourself.

 

Nisargadatta says, “What is religion? A cloud in the sky. I live in the

sky, not in the clouds, which are so many words held together. Remove the

verbiage and what remains? Truth remains.”

 

Balsekar says, “Religions were originally based on direct or absolute

Truth. In the course of time they degenerated into concepts. And on these

concepts has been erected gradually an enormous, amorphous structure

enchanting enough to attract and mislead millions of people.”

 

With Love

Jan

[Guest guest]

Hey Jan

I do agree that religions and beleifs are made up of

beleifs and concepts.

But i wouldnt regard them as left overs as u say.

Releigion gives a meaning to life.

Makes us what we are , a better indiviual.

But its sad that certain people in some relegions

(which i dont want to mention) interpret noble

intentions in a wrong way.

I beleive that releigion is a backbone to human

society.

It keeps us on top of the food chain , u know.

And as far ur statements are concerned i gauge u mean

to say that advaita has no truth in it .

Well if my deductions form ur e-mail is correct then i

would say that u should go back and get to reading

books on advaiata philosophy.

And let me tell u one more thing dude.............

"ITS EASY TO POINT FINGERS BUT DIFFICULT TO

UNDERSTAND"

So why dont u take some time of the fingers and rut

stuff and get urself into some serious reading.

 

Regards

Santosh

 

------"Life manifests itself in an indiviual,

education gives the indiviual freedom, Freedom to

think,to adore,to meditate.The safety and preservation

of human creativity is the end of all

education"------------

 

--- Jan Sultan <swork wrote:

> Religions and philosophies are made up of beliefs

> and concepts. These are

> leftovers from the direct or absolute truth

> experienced by the founders of

> these religions. Usually these leftovers have no

> more truth left in them.

>

> My question is whether Advaita Vedanta has fallen

> into the same rut and if

> not what keeps the finger still pointed at the

> truth? In other words do the

> followers of Advaita Vedanta still look at where the

> finger is pointing or

> have they begun to worship the finger?

>

> With Love

> Jan

>

>

>

 

 

=====

Santosh Rajan IyerDepartment of Mechanical EngineeringWayne State

UniversityDetroit Michigan 48201

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

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[Guest guest]

If we cannot examine that which supports us objectively then it

indeed has become a religion which we must take on faith.

If we must worship a source then the teachings become frozen.

 

To question ourselves and our practices is not a matter of

disrespect, rather it is a fulfillment of that which has been

provided as a guide and in its own way is the highest form of respect.

 

Who is upset at a question?

Who can be upset at its answer?

 

advaitin, santosh rajan <proton_2> wrote:

[Guest guest]

Hari OM! Narayana Smrithis!

 

Blessed Self,

 

As Poojya Gurudev Swami Chinmayanadaji says.

 

Faith is, `To believe what you do not see', the reward of which is,

`you see what you believed'.

 

We may worship the finger to understand the pointed, for some of us

it is diffcult to comprehend the pointed without a finger. So as a

pre-requisite faith in Sastras, faith in the Guru, is a must.

 

With Love & OM!

 

Krishna Prasad

 

--- Jan Sultan <swork wrote:

> Religions and philosophies are made up of beliefs and concepts.

> These are

> leftovers from the direct or absolute truth experienced by the

> founders of

> these religions. Usually these leftovers have no more truth left in

> them.

>

> My question is whether Advaita Vedanta has fallen into the same rut

> and if

> not what keeps the finger still pointed at the truth? In other

> words do the

> followers of Advaita Vedanta still look at where the finger is

> pointing or

> have they begun to worship the finger?

>

> With Love

> Jan

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

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[Guest guest]

Hari OM! Narayana Smrithis!

 

Blessed Self,

 

This advaita is not an Objective science it is a subjective science,

there is no harm in questioning, and nobody feels insult on that. The

intellect always questions, until we are on intellectual level the

questions never stops.

 

With Love & OM!

 

Krishna Prasad

 

 

--- johnrloganis <johnrloganis wrote:

> If we cannot examine that which supports us objectively then it

> indeed has become a religion which we must take on faith.

> If we must worship a source then the teachings become frozen.

>

> To question ourselves and our practices is not a matter of

> disrespect, rather it is a fulfillment of that which has been

> provided as a guide and in its own way is the highest form of

> respect.

>

> Who is upset at a question?

> Who can be upset at its answer?

>

> advaitin, santosh rajan <proton_2> wrote:

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

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