Guest guest Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 The dichotomy suggesting that there are two approaches to the Truth (gradual versus direct)is illusionary. Vedas declare with authority, "I Am That." Sri Ramana has said that the Truth of the Self Is Simple and is within everyone's grasp. However, the spiritual effort needed in terms of meditation and inquiry to make the mind subtle and to refine the intellect cannot be dismissed as trivial. If some people feel that they do not need such efforts and can grasp the Truth immediately by hearing Jean Klein give an English translation of ancient Mahavakyas, that is wonderful indeed. The state of the Self is natural. Sages called it the Sahaj state. It means easy and natural. So, you have to see what is natural for you and what comes natural to you. Wedded to either the "direct" approach or the "gradual" approach, one misses the obvious. Both the "direct" and "gradual" depend on each other for meaning and have no basis in the Reality of the Self. The Self Always Is. It is not seen by "another" directly. Neither is it approached by "another" gradually. Self Eternally Reveals It Self Alone to It Self. Love to all Harsha Th "Mark Hovila" <hovila@a...> Thu Sep 5, 2002 2:02 am Direct Approach: "You Are the Truth" -- Jean Klein The NoDoer e-mail list has been renamed DirectApproach. Here is the new list description: "There are basically two known approaches to truth, the gradual and the direct. In the direct approach the premise is that you are the truth, there is nothing to achieve. Every step to achieve something is going away from it. The 'path,' which strictly speaking is not a path from somewhere to somewhere, is only to welcome, to be open to the truth, the I am. When you have once glimpsed your real nature it solicits you. There is therefore nothing to do, only be attuned to it as often as invited. There is not a single element of volition in this attuning. It is not the mind which attunes to the I am but the I am which absorbs the mind. "In the gradual approach you are bound to the mind. The mind is under the illusion that if it changes, alters states, stops, etc., it will be absorbed in what is beyond it. This misconception leads to the most tragic state in which a truth-seeker can find himself: he has bound himself in his own web, a web of the most subtle duality." -- Jean Klein Inspired by the late Jean Klein, teacher of Advaita Vedanta (nonduality), this forum aims to bring together those who have been touched by the teachings of Jean Klein, Sri Atmananda (Krishna Menon) and other expressions of the direct approach to truth. Please share your questions, your stories, your pointers to the Ultimate. The list home page is DirectApproach/ Mark ===== /join Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 --- Harsha <harshaimtm wrote: > Wedded to either the "direct" approach or the > "gradual" approach, one misses the obvious. Both the > "direct" and "gradual" depend on each other for > meaning and have no basis in the Reality of the Self. > The Self Always Is. It is not seen by "another" > directly. Neither is it approached by "another" > gradually. Self Eternally Reveals It Self Alone to It > Self. > > Love to all > Harsha > Harshaji Pranaams I could not have said any better. Thanks - The obvious is not so obvious only becuase of habitual notions deeply engraved in the mind that sees the false as true and true as false. This is precidsely why Shankara wrote adhyaasa bhaashya before he started the Brahmasuutra bhaashya. Unless the fundamental problem is not understood any attempt to solve - truely a non-existent problem is going to be futile. To recognize that the problem itself is an invlaid problem requires the habitual notions to be dropped and that Bhagavaan Ramana recognized as well as he advocated - karma bhakti and j~naana as the means for sadhana before one plunges into an inquiry. His teaching in Upadesha saara goes from karma yoga to bhakti yogo to j~naana yoga - with pinacle of the teaching with sloka - dRisyavaaritam chittam atmanaaH chitta darshhanam tatva darshhanam. This is the most directly seeing by stripping of the seens to see the truth of the seens. What a beauty! My saashhTanga pranaams to that great Arunachala sage. Hari OM! Sadananda ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 Sadaji, my prannams to you and so many brilliant and profound exponents of the Vedanta here who are such beautiful people with warm hearts as well. Many of us who have only a little knowledge of the Shastras are very grateful to the Advaitin Sangha for this continuing wonderful learning experiences. Love to all Harsha advaitin, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada> wrote: > > Harshaji Pranaams > > I could not have said any better. Thanks - The obvious is not so > obvious only becuase of habitual notions deeply engraved in the mind > that sees the false as true and true as false. This is precidsely > why Shankara wrote adhyaasa bhaashya before he started the > Brahmasuutra bhaashya. Unless the fundamental problem is not > understood any attempt to solve - truely a non-existent problem is > going to be futile. To recognize that the problem itself is an > invlaid problem requires the habitual notions to be dropped and that > Bhagavaan Ramana recognized as well as he advocated - karma bhakti > and j~naana as the means for sadhana before one plunges into an > inquiry. His teaching in Upadesha saara goes from karma yoga to > bhakti yogo to j~naana yoga - with pinacle of the teaching with sloka > - dRisyavaaritam chittam atmanaaH chitta darshhanam tatva darshhanam. > This is the most directly seeing by stripping of the seens to see > the truth of the seens. What a beauty! My saashhTanga pranaams to > that great Arunachala sage. > > Hari OM! > Sadananda > > > ===== > What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 Harsha, We may have a different understanding of the direct and gradual approaches. Perhaps the post I just sent to Sadananda will clarify my views a bit. If anyone thinks that all they have to do is hear Jean Klein or any other sage say "You are the truth" and they will instantly become enlightened, they will most likely be disappointed. Certainly Jean Klein never stated that it was this simple. The direct approach does not mean that one becomes instantly enlightened. It says that we are already enlightened, but it recognizes that our understanding of this truth is obscured. It too is gradual in the sense that it takes time for the truth to sink in. But what Dr. Klein calls the gradual, or progressive approach, begins with the premise that I am bound and that I must "do" something to free myself. Would it not be better to simply be open to the Truth, the Self, the I Am, and to undertake any "doing" in the spirit of nondoership, of celebration of What IS than to struggle and struggle to become something that one imagines one is not? Mark - Harsha Harsha ; ; Advaitin Thursday, September 05, 2002 10:46 AM The False Dichotomy - Direct vs. Gradual The dichotomy suggesting that there are two approaches to the Truth (gradual versus direct)is illusionary. Vedas declare with authority, "I Am That." Sri Ramana has said that the Truth of the Self Is Simple and is within everyone's grasp. However, the spiritual effort needed in terms of meditation and inquiry to make the mind subtle and to refine the intellect cannot be dismissed as trivial. If some people feel that they do not need such efforts and can grasp the Truth immediately by hearing Jean Klein give an English translation of ancient Mahavakyas, that is wonderful indeed. The state of the Self is natural. Sages called it the Sahaj state. It means easy and natural. So, you have to see what is natural for you and what comes natural to you. Wedded to either the "direct" approach or the "gradual" approach, one misses the obvious. Both the "direct" and "gradual" depend on each other for meaning and have no basis in the Reality of the Self. The Self Always Is. It is not seen by "another" directly. Neither is it approached by "another" gradually. Self Eternally Reveals It Self Alone to It Self. Love to all Harsha Th "Mark Hovila" <hovila@a...> Thu Sep 5, 2002 2:02 am Direct Approach: "You Are the Truth" -- Jean Klein The NoDoer e-mail list has been renamed DirectApproach. Here is the new list description: "There are basically two known approaches to truth, the gradual and the direct. In the direct approach the premise is that you are the truth, there is nothing to achieve. Every step to achieve something is going away from it. The 'path,' which strictly speaking is not a path from somewhere to somewhere, is only to welcome, to be open to the truth, the I am. When you have once glimpsed your real nature it solicits you. There is therefore nothing to do, only be attuned to it as often as invited. There is not a single element of volition in this attuning. It is not the mind which attunes to the I am but the I am which absorbs the mind. "In the gradual approach you are bound to the mind. The mind is under the illusion that if it changes, alters states, stops, etc., it will be absorbed in what is beyond it. This misconception leads to the most tragic state in which a truth-seeker can find himself: he has bound himself in his own web, a web of the most subtle duality." -- Jean Klein Inspired by the late Jean Klein, teacher of Advaita Vedanta (nonduality), this forum aims to bring together those who have been touched by the teachings of Jean Klein, Sri Atmananda (Krishna Menon) and other expressions of the direct approach to truth. Please share your questions, your stories, your pointers to the Ultimate. The list home page is DirectApproach/ Mark ===== /join Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Namaste Sri Mark: Thanks for the clarification and some additional comments become necessary to emphasize the role of 'sadhana.' The saying that - 'not by words but by deeds,' is quite relevant in this context. The statement, "It says that we are already enlightened, but it recognizes that our understanding of this truth is obscured," needs careful evaluation. Who is obscured? What is the reason for the obscurity? Does it implicitly imply presence of Duality? Sankara rightly points out that the non-recognition our True Identity is due to 'ignorance,' which needs eradication. The process of eradication of ignorance is spiritual Yoga sadhana. In your posting you seem to recognize the problem and the problem is labelled (new marketing scheme) with a new slogan! I wish that it is so simple just to open to the Truth (as you seem to imply). I want to mail my letter to the post office to reach a destination but in order to accomplish this task, I need to know its exact location. I should seek all the help that I can get to locate the postoffice for the mail to reach the destination! Vedanta doesn't stipulate that I am bound but on the contrary it starts with the statement, 'Aham Brahamatami - I am Brahman.' It also states 'Brahmaiva Satyam - Brahman is the Truth.' I believe that the statement, 'I am bound' should attributable to Buddhism where human 'desires' are recognized the cause for the human misery. In Vedanta, the focus is on diverting the 'desires' from 'selfish fulfilment' to the universal happiness. Warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "Mark Hovila" <hovila@a...> wrote: > Harsha, > > We may have a different understanding of the direct and gradual approaches. Perhaps the post I just sent to Sadananda will clarify my views a bit. If anyone thinks that all they have to do is hear Jean Klein or any other sage say "You are the truth" and they will instantly become enlightened, they will most likely be disappointed. Certainly Jean Klein never stated that it was this simple. The direct approach does not mean that one becomes instantly enlightened. It says that we are already enlightened, but it recognizes that our understanding of this truth is obscured. It too is gradual in the sense that it takes time for the truth to sink in. But what Dr. Klein calls the gradual, or progressive approach, begins with the premise that I am bound and that I must "do" something to free myself. Would it not be better to simply be open to the Truth, the Self, the I Am, and to undertake any "doing" in the spirit of nondoership, of celebration of What IS than to struggle and struggle to become something that one imagines one is not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Ram, >In your posting you seem to recognize the problem and the problem is labelled (new marketing scheme) with a new slogan! I wish that it is so simple just to open to the Truth (as you seem to imply). I want to mail my letter to the post office to reach a destination but in order to accomplish this task, I need to know its exact location. I should seek all the help that I can get to locate the postoffice for the mail to reach the destination! But we already KNOW the location, as you point out: "I am Brahman." The problem is that we would rather play around in our minds than face this truth. Give me a mantra, give me a technique, give me something to play with, but don't ask me to actually look at myself! Yes, it is not easy, because we are so attached to this supposed separate identity. And yes indeed, we need help. We need somebody to point out the truth of our situation, not someone to dispense lollipops to keep us happy. And again, nothing wrong with mantras and other techniques. But if we don't simultaneously face the truth about ourselves (self-inquiry, surrender, abandoning doership, renouncing the fruit of our actions, etc.), they may do more harm than good, strengthening the ego rather than destroying it. This is the essence of Jean Klein's criticism of the gradual path. My comments here are not intended to present "new marketing schemes" or "slogans." None of this is new, and I did not intend to imply that it was new. I am not a teacher, just somebody trying to face the truth about himself. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Namaste Mark: Thanks again for the clarifications and your posting again confirms the fact that the 'Direct approach' of Dr. Klein is no different from the Vedantic Self Enquiry. Vedanta doesn't suggest recitation of Mantras or completion of an educational course with scriptural materials. Vedanta wants us utilize our intellect to conduct self- enquiry and at the end with the subtle message that "Vedanta" needs to be abaondoned at certain point. Use the intellect to go beyond the intellect. For most of us the process is 'gradual' though we can label the process as 'direct.' Let me clarify one other point regarding the slogan is certainly not directed against you but the modern tendency of marketing 'spirituality' as a commodity! regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "Mark Hovila" <hovila@a...> wrote: > But we already KNOW the location, as you point out: "I am Brahman." The problem is that we would rather play around in our minds than face this truth. Give me a mantra, give me a technique, give me something to play with, but don't ask me to actually look at myself! Yes, it is not easy, because we are so attached to this supposed separate identity. And yes indeed, we need help. We need somebody to point out the truth of our situation, not someone to dispense lollipops to keep us happy. > > And again, nothing wrong with mantras and other techniques. But if we don't simultaneously face the truth about ourselves (self-inquiry, surrender, abandoning doership, renouncing the fruit of our actions, etc.), they may do more harm than good, strengthening the ego rather than destroying it. This is the essence of Jean Klein's criticism of the gradual path. > > My comments here are not intended to present "new marketing schemes" or "slogans." None of this is new, and I did not intend to imply that it was new. I am not a teacher, just somebody trying to face the truth about himself. > > Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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