Gita Satsangh (avyakta)

September 10, 2002

Namaste.

Tonnes of thanks to Sadanandaji, Prof. Krishnamurthyji, Sunderji and

Michael Reidiji for their prolific comments/quotes on this conundrum

of the "unmanifest"

This "conundrum" woke me up in the middle of last night and I

couldn't sleep thereafter. My restless movements due to a bad

cervical spondylosis were annoying my sleepless wife who is

undergoing considerable menopausal problems these days. I couldn't,

therefore, expect any kindness from her for my spiritual menopause at

midnight.

Whenever I am confronted with a spiritual dilemma, my usual reaction

is to test it on my advaitic vision, which I regard as something akin

to a goldsmith's touchstone. The "unmanifest" was, therefore,

mercilessly rubbed on the stone till at last it started shining (so I

suppose) and shedding some light by early morning.

When I think of "vykta", the thing that rushes into my mind is a

rainbow. Where does it come from and where does it go so fast?

>From "avyakta" to "vyakta" and then again back to "avyakta". The

rainbow wasn't there but what made the rainbow, i.e. the rain-bearing

cloud and sunlight, were already there. The rainbow was "avyakta" in

them. And, then again, when it disappeared, it became "avyakta" back

in them.

So, avyakta here is something that flanks "vyakta" on either side.

The three are interdependent. "Vyakta" cannot exist alone without

its "avyakta" counterpart(s). This is the case with all "beings"

and, therefore, applies to the entire universe. No wonder then that

BG referred to "bhUtas" (beings) as "vyktamadhyAni" (with manifest

middles). The word necessarily and grammatically implies that

the "avyakta" at either end is also in the "bhUtas". In other words,

a being cannot be complete without the unmanifest at either end

because what is manifest is only the "madhya" (middle).

Since "vykta" and "avyakta" are interdependent or part of the same,

the latter should be subject to conditionings like the former. One

cannot think of "vykta" without "avyakta" and vice versa.

The "avyakta" on either side of "vykta", as pointed out in my earlier

post, is not really unmanifest in the complete sense. It is an

object of our inferential knowledge. In the case of the rainbow, we

know that it was there in the cloud and sunlight. Although both

cloud and sunlight are "vykta", the rainbow was/is "avyakta" before

it came into being from them and after it disappeared into them. This

applies to the cloud and sunlight too. Both were not there and will

cease to exist. So, we have to necessarily qualify this kind

of "avyakta" and understand it as "vyakta avyakta", an "avyakta" that

is deducible and understood as existent in hidden form. Nothing in

creation is beyond this rule – the mountains, stars, solar system,

galaxies, thoughts, dreams, and all.

An Arab colleague of mine, who is much younger than me, is in a state

of coma in a London hospital. His stomach cancer has spread like

wildfire. Inexorable entropy is just undoing his physical being.

The young boy of the 80s, who wanted to remain thin and trim for ever

to fascinate his numerous girlfriends, is being consumed by a

multitude of reckless cells! The vykta that was born from avyakta is

now sadly taking its return flight back home.

In the local hospital here, a friend of mine is in the ICU after a

massive heart-attack. His ECG is dancing wild mocking at attending

doctors. Entropy taking over? "Vykta" eagerly undoing itself to

be "avyakta"?

And, then I think of me – my cervical spondylosis, a so far obedient

but enlarged prostate and a sluggish pancreas. When the attention

roosts home, the call automatically goes out: "Maa". She appears on

the red lotus, bedecked in jewels, clad in red. I become Her pet cat

that rubs against Her frills. She lifts and places me on Her lap

where I curl up secure, comfortable and mew at Her: "Maa". She

listens, Her eyes gleaming with kindness, love, lost in the thought

of Siva.

She was my thought. Where did it come from? From which "avyakta"

did it become "vyakta"? Definitely, that "avyakta" had parameters.

If I were born a Christian, probably I could have had Mother Mary for

the Devi. So, many imponderables including my samskaras dictated the

shape of the "vykta" for me. They were my "avyakta" for the Devi

thought.

The "vykta" disappears to be "avyakta" again to generate more and

more "vyktas". The cycle continues ceaselessly at all levels – the

microcosmic as well as the macrocosmic.

The rainbow, my exiting colleagues, my Devi thought – these are

all "vyaktamadhyAni" transformations in this inexorable cycle. What

sustains the cycle? What lights it up? What is that that does not

transform?

Permit me to reword Sankara:

Avyaktoham, vyaktoham, avyaktoham punah punah

Satchitaananda roopoham

Ahamekaahamavyayam.

The last line is the clincher. Ahamekahamavyayam is the

second "avyakta" – the Unmanifest with a capital "U", avyaktaat

avyakta, sanaatana, beyond all conditionings, because of which

conditionings and the conditioned exist. There is no knowing That as

I deduce and understand the first "avyakta". The first "avyakta"

and "vykta" are impermanent, changing, eternally in flux. There

should be something that sustain them and that should be Me, the

Seer. Who else?

"Aham aadischa madhyam cha bhoothanamanthameva cha" (BG)

I am the (avyakta) beginning, the (vykta) middle and (avyakta) end.

I am in the "vyktas" and "avyaktas". They are because I am. Not vice

versa. There is no knowing Me because the knower and known are Me.

I liked all the interpretations. Those by Shri Aurobindo are really

fascinating. But, as Prof. Krishnamurthyji rightly pointed out, they

may not be acceptable to an advaitin. Isn't it better if we can

understand what is meant without taking recourse to concepts like

advidya in seed form etc. and without being sitting ducks in anti-

mUla-avidyAvAdins' line of fire?

Hence, this endeavour. And this is my understanding of the conundrum

till of course our Sunderji enters to tear me apart with sharp,

glistening quotes.

Please bear with me if have been repetitive.

Pranams to all advaitins.

Madathil Nair

P.S.:

Dear Michael: Your message demands repeated reading, which I will do

later so that the ideas really sink in. Besides, I have already used

a lot of office time for this post, presumably like most other

advaitins whose messages usually pop up during the US daytime Monday -

Friday and less so during weekends and holidays. There is therefore

a prick at the back of my conscience.

The universe has no beginning and, therefore no end. It is a

continuous cycle in macrocosm - a continuous flux that spits out

matter, time and space. If we conceive an end to the cycle, then

that should be understood as a beginning too. The universe is ever-

existent as it is a projection on Immortality. It can be undone by

looking in and re-erected by looking out.

Best regards.

Madathil Nair

_________________

advaitin, "michael Reidy" <ombhurbhuva@h...> wrote:

> When you are offered the concept of a universe which is

beginingless but not

> endless this must be a signal that we are in the domain of the non-

logical

> (not illogical). There is a creative tension between the two

concepts of a

> universe in manifestation which shares with its creator a

beginingless

> nature and which at the same time according to Vedic revelation

will end.

September 10, 2002

Madathil Rajendran Nair wrote:

Namaste.

So, avyakta here is something that flanks "vyakta" on either side.

The three are interdependent. "Vyakta" cannot exist alone without

its "avyakta" counterpart(s). This is the case with all "beings"

and, therefore, applies to the entire universe.

--------------------

Most certainly!

Here is a veda vakyam worth remembering and then to mergae in TRUTH :

"Indriyebhyah paraarthaahaa,arthebhyascha param manah,

Manasastu paraa budhihi,Budhiraatmaa mahaan parah,

MahatahparamAvyaktam, Avyaktaat Purushahparahaa,

Purushaan na param kinchit, Saa Kaashtaa Saa Paraa

Gathihi !"

Hari Om!

Swaminarayan.

- We Remember

9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost

September 11, 2002

My dear noble devotee Sri Swamy Narayan garu of Sri

Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada,

May I know the transalation of the Veda Vakyam you

quoted.

Have you expreinced how this avyakta state is?I am

seriously in search of someone who can tell me how the

transition from the avyakta state to vyakta state

takes place in the case of creation

,i.e.,physical,mental,and vocal action.

May I also know whether you are interested in Language

and its manifestation.

Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada

Chilukuri Bhuvaneswar

--- Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Madathil Rajendran Nair wrote:

Namaste.

So, avyakta here is something that flanks

"vyakta" on either side.

The three are interdependent. "Vyakta"

cannot exist alone without

its "avyakta" counterpart(s).

This is the case with all "beings"

and, therefore, applies to the entire universe.

--------------------

Most certainly!

Here is a veda vakyam worth remembering and then to

mergae in TRUTH :

"Indriyebhyah paraarthaahaa,arthebhyascha param

manah,

Manasastu paraa budhihi,Budhiraatmaa mahaan parah,

MahatahparamAvyaktam, Avyaktaat Purushahparahaa,

Purushaan na param kinchit, Saa Kaashtaa Saa Paraa

Gathihi !"

Hari Om!

Swaminarayan.

- We Remember

9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost

[Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

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September 11, 2002

Namaste.

Thanks Swaminarayan-Ji.

Yes. It is very clear. This says purusha is beyond avyakta and there

is nothing beyond purusha. We don't have a double-avyakta confusion

here. Purhsha is that Ultimate which lights up the existence of

avyakta (because we know that there is an avyakta as against vyakta)

and the rest upto the indriyas.

Pranams and regards.

Madathil Nair

___________________________

advaitin, Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan> wrote:

> "Indriyebhyah paraarthaahaa,arthebhyascha param manah,

>

> Manasastu paraa budhihi,Budhiraatmaa mahaan parah,

>

> MahatahparamAvyaktam, Avyaktaat Purushahparahaa,

>

> Purushaan na param kinchit, Saa Kaashtaa Saa Paraa

>

> Gathihi !"

September 11, 2002

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

This says purusha is beyond avyakta and there

> is nothing beyond purusha. We don't have a double-avyakta

confusion

> here. Purusha is that Ultimate which lights up the existence of

> avyakta (because we know that there is an avyakta as against

vyakta)

> and the rest upto the indriyas.

Namaste,

The confusion of double avyakta is only in the context of

refutation of Sankhya by Vedanta. For Sankhya, even Purusha is a 'co-

ordinate principle', and not transcending avyakta [Radhakrishnan's

commentary].

Just as a point of reference the following verses are worth

comparing:

Katha Upanishad 1:3:10-13

http://sanskrit.gde.to/doc_upanishhat/katha.itx

indriyebhyaH paraa hyarthaa arthebhyashcha paraM manaH .

manasastu paraa buddhirbuddheraatmaa mahaanparaH .. 10..

mahataH paramavyaktamavyaktaatpurushhaH paraH .

purushhaanna paraM ki.nchitsaa kaashhThaa saa paraa gatiH .. 11..

eshha sarveshhu bhuuteshhu guuDho.a.atmaa na prakaashate .

dR^ishyate tvagryayaa buddhyaa suukshmayaa suukshmadarshibhiH .. 12..

yachchhedvaaN^manasii praaGYastadyachchhejGYaana aatmani .

GYaanamaatmani mahati niyachchhettadyachchhechchhaanta aatmani .. 13..

=======================================================

>From the Gita:

indriyaaNi paraaNyaahurindriyebhyaH paraM manaH .

manasastu paraa buddhiryo buddheH paratastu saH .. 3\.42..

evaM buddheH paraM buddhvaa sa.nstabhyaatmaanamaatmanaa .

jahi shatruM mahaabaaho kaamaruupaM duraasadam.h .. 3\.43..

sukhamaatyantikaM yattad.h buddhigraahyamatiindriyam.h .

vetti yatra na chaivaayaM sthitashchalati tattvataH .. 6\.21..

Regards,

Sunder

September 14, 2002

Bhuvaneswar Chilukuri wrote:

May I know the transalation of the Veda Vakyam you

quoted.

--------------

Dear Shri C,

The translation of the verse quoted, according to Swami Gambhirananda, goes as

follows:

"Mahataha",as compared (even)with "Mahat"(the great soul)

"Param",higher-subtler,the inner self,and the most pervasive;is "Avyaktam",the

unmanifested-that which is the seed of the whole Universe,the essence of

unmanifested name and form,the state of aggaragation of all powers of causes and

effects,called by such names as

"Avyakta"(Unmanifested),"Avyakruta"(Unevolved),akasha(Space),etc.,resting on the

supreme Self through and through like the potentiality of a banyan tree in a

tiny banyan seed."Avyaktat",as comparaed to that "Avyakta"(The Purasha is)

"Parah",higher-subtler and greater,being the cause of all the causes and the

innermost self of all-and therefore too,He is called PURASHA,because He fills up

everything..Ruling out the possibility of anything being higher than Him,the

text says,"Purushat na param kinchit",there is nothing higher than the

Purusha.Since there is no other substance beyond the Purusha who is a mass of

pure conciousness,therefore,"Sa",He, the Purusha;is "Kashtha",the acme,the

culmination-of subtleness,greatness,and inwardness,as Self.Here indeed culminate

all subtleness etc.,commencing from the senses.And hence this is "Paraa

gatih",the supreme goal-of all travellers,all individual souls that

transmigrate;because the Smriti says,"Going where they do not return"(Gita

VIII.21;XV.6)

--------

Have you expreinced how this avyakta state is?I am

seriously in search of someone who can tell me how the

transition from the avyakta state to vyakta state

takes place in the case of creation

,i.e.,physical,mental,and vocal action.

-----

Really,No ! I have to take it for granted that such a state exists only from

the Scriptures like the verse translated above. I should further practice what

is preached in the same Katha Upanishad I.iii.13which stateas that the

discriminating man should mearge the (organ of)speech into the mind;he shouyld

merge that (mind) into the intelligent self;he shouild merge the intelligeant

self into the Great Soul;he should merge the Great Soul into the peaceful Self.

-

May I also know whether you are interested in Language

and its manifestation.

------------------------

Yes. I am intaeraestaedain Languagea and its manifestation only to the very

basic form and source which according to our Scriptures is "AUM"

-------

Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada

Chilukuri Bhuvaneswar

-----------------------------

Hari Om1

Swaminarayan

News - Today's headlines

September 16, 2002

My dear Noble Devotee of Sri SankaraBhagavatpujyapada,

Thank you very much for your kind reply and the

translation.

Your quotation from The Holy Kathopanishad is

informative.

May I request you to kindly do this experiment and let

me know the results.

According to the tradition, there are ,I think, three

kinds of japams - You may please enlighten me more if

you know more about this. They are

va:chaka: saying a thought loudly with audible

sound;

upa:msu: saying a thought inaudibly but with the

movement of the vocal organs,i.e.,lips,tongue,etc.,

ma:nasika: saying the thought mentally without any

movement of the vocal organs.

I think,there is another higher form of japam where

there is a leap from manasika level to the actual

contemplation of the meaning of the thought,i.e.,the

objective action of the thought is contemplated. For

example ,the material glory of the sun as a real

object impelling the intuitions of the devotee is

materially willed as an action in Gayathri japam.In

technical parlance,the leap is from the va:chaka level

to the va:chyam level in the reverse direction if we

start from sound to meaning.This I think is still at

the gross level of that material action of the

manthram.If we only imagine that action as a pattern

without without this material manifestation of the

action,then it is at the subtle level (Su:kshma

Sari:ra level).

NOW THE POINT IS: IF WE TRY TO TAKE IT BACK FURTHER

FROM THAT SUBTLE STATE TO ITS ORIGIN,WE GET INTO

BLANKNESS,DARKNESS.BUT BEHIND THE DAKNESS THERE IS AN

AWARENESS OF THE DARKNESS.pLEASE TRY TO PROBE HOW THAT

SPRINGING OF THE THOUGHT COMES.SINCE YOU ARE

INTERESTED IN AUM WHOSE MEANING IS ALL CREATION

INCLUSIVE,IT AMOUNTS SELF REALIZATION,iF YOU TRY THIS

METHOD.Probably,then you can tell me authoratitively

what that avyakta is.

So I request you to start with small ideas

encompassing different feelings.Please critically

trace the path of the origin of your thoughts.First,

you record why a particular thought has emanated.If

you start with base thoughts ,you will easily trace

the CAUSE of such creations.I am only at this stage

now.Let me take you as a case study and map out the

results and cross-check our findings.When we

successfully uncover these little secrets then we can

try the second stage which you are I think interested

as you said about AUM.

May the full-moon coolth of Sri Bala Sankara's grace

unfold the bliss of what we are all aspiring for!

Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada's love

Chilukuri Bhuvaneswar

--- Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Bhuvaneswar Chilukuri wrote:

May I know the transalation of the Veda Vakyam you

quoted.

--------------

Dear Shri C,

The translation of the verse quoted, according to

Swami Gambhirananda, goes as follows:

"Mahataha",as compared (even)with

"Mahat"(the great soul)

"Param",higher-subtler,the inner self,and

the most pervasive;is "Avyaktam",the

unmanifested-that which is the seed of the whole

Universe,the essence of unmanifested name and form,the

state of aggaragation of all powers of causes and

effects,called by such names as

"Avyakta"(Unmanifested),"Avyakruta"(Unevolved),akasha(Space)\

,etc.,resting

on the supreme Self through and through like the

potentiality of a banyan tree in a tiny banyan

seed."Avyaktat",as comparaed to that

"Avyakta"(The Purasha is)

"Parah",higher-subtler and greater,being the

cause of all the causes and the innermost self of

all-and therefore too,He is called PURASHA,because He

fills up everything..Ruling out the possibility of

anything being higher than Him,the text

says,"Purushat na param kinchit",there is

nothing higher than the Purusha.Since there is no

other substance beyond the Purusha who is a mass of

pure conciousness,therefore,"Sa",He, the

Purusha;is "Kashtha",the acme,the

culmination-of subtleness,greatness,and inwardness,as

Self.Here indeed culminate all subtleness

etc.,commencing from the senses.And hence this is

"Paraa gatih",the supreme goal-of all

travellers,all individual souls that

transmigrate;because the Smriti says,"Going where

they do not return"(Gita VIII.21;XV.6)

--------

Have you expreinced how this avyakta state is?I am

seriously in search of someone who can tell me how

the

transition from the avyakta state to vyakta state

takes place in the case of creation

,i.e.,physical,mental,and vocal action.

-----

Really,No ! I have to take it for granted that

such a state exists only from the Scriptures like the

verse translated above. I should further

practice what is preached in the same Katha Upanishad

I.iii.13which stateas that the discriminating man

should mearge the (organ of)speech into the mind;he

shouyld merge that (mind) into the intelligent self;he

shouild merge the intelligeant self into the Great

Soul;he should merge the Great Soul into the peaceful

Self.

-

May I also know whether you are interested in

Language

and its manifestation.

------------------------

Yes. I am intaeraestaedain Languagea and its

manifestation only to the very basic form and source

which according to our Scriptures is

"AUM"

-------

Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada

Chilukuri Bhuvaneswar

-----------------------------

Hari Om1

Swaminarayan

News - Today's headlines

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September 16, 2002

Namaste, Sir.

Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi has beautifully dealt with the three methods

of japa in his sweet UpadesasAram.

The fourth level written about by you is a little confusing to me.

You are saying: "I think,there is another higher form of japam where

there is a leap from manasika level to the actual contemplation of

the meaning of the thought, i.e.,the objective action of the thought

is contemplated.".

Such contemplation is again mAnasika and, therefore, should belong to

the third level irrespective of whether the object is vAchaka or

vAchyam. Am I right? It is said that we have to go all the way with

the help of the mind/intellect till the question who is it that

enquires (does the japa) is appreciated. So, there cannot be any

fourth level. When the third (chiththajam japam as Bh. Ramana calls

it) ends, one "knows" and keeps quiet, because there is no way the

appreciated avyakta can be described.

Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

Pranams.

Madathil Nair

____

But advaitin, Bhuvaneswar Chilukuri <bhuvaneswarc>

wrote:

>

> NOW THE POINT IS: IF WE TRY TO TAKE IT BACK FURTHER

> FROM THAT SUBTLE STATE TO ITS ORIGIN,WE GET INTO

> BLANKNESS,DARKNESS.BUT BEHIND THE DAKNESS THERE IS AN

> AWARENESS OF THE DARKNESS.pLEASE TRY TO PROBE HOW THAT

> SPRINGING OF THE THOUGHT COMES.SINCE YOU ARE

> INTERESTED IN AUM WHOSE MEANING IS ALL CREATION

> INCLUSIVE,IT AMOUNTS SELF REALIZATION,iF YOU TRY THIS

> METHOD.Probably,then you can tell me authoratitively

> what that avyakta is.

September 16, 2002

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

>

> Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi has beautifully dealt with the three

methods

> of japa in his sweet UpadesasAram.

>

> The fourth level written about by you is a little confusing to me.

>

Namaste,

The reference is likely to be to 'ajapa japa'.

"....If you are not aware of the ajapa (unspoken chant) which is

eternally going on, you should take to japa. Japa is made with an

effort. The effort is meant to ward off other thoughts. Then the japa

becomes mental and internal. Finally, its ajapa and eternal nature

will be realized. For it will be found to be going on even without

your effort. The effortless state is the state of realization....."

p. 272, Talks with Maharshi, 5th ed. 1972

Sw. Sivananda puts it this way:

http://www.thedivinelifesociety.org/download/yogadaily.htm

....."Soham Dhyana

Soham and OM are one and the same. Soham Dhyana is Nirguna, Nirakara

meditation only. Soham means "I am he" This is associated with the

breath. Repeat "So" when you inhale and "Ham" when you exhale. This

is easy for some. This is known as `Ajapa Japa'. Feel that you are

the all-pervading pure consciousness when you think of Soham. The

source for this breath is Brahman or Atman. You are identical with

that source and reality....."

Regards,

Sunder

September 16, 2002

Sunderji, if I remember right Bhagwan's words in UpadesasAram

are: "Ajya dhArayA srotasA samam, chithajam japam sreyamuthamam"

(Like the flow of gheee, of a stream - unbroken, continuous,

effortless and spontaneous - the japa born in the mind is the best.)

This is ajapa japa and, since it is chithajam, it is in the third

level beyond which no "level" can exist or be defined or described.

Regards.

Nair

_____________

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

>

> The reference is likely to be to 'ajapa japa'.

September 16, 2002

Namaste Madathilji,

You have reversed the sequence!

uttamastavaaduchchamandataH |

chittajaM japadhyaanamuttamam.h || 6.

aajyadhaarayaa srotasaa samam.h |

saralachintanaM viralataH param.h || 7.

Effortless dhyaana is same as turiya, if I understand it correctly

(the so-called 'fourth' is the ever-existent).

Regards,

Sunder

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

> Sunderji, if I remember right Bhagwan's words in UpadesasAram

> are: "Ajya dhArayA srotasA samam, chithajam japam sreyamuthamam"

> (Like the flow of gheee, of a stream - unbroken, continuous,

> effortless and spontaneous - the japa born in the mind is the

best.)

> This is ajapa japa and, since it is chithajam, it is in the third

> level beyond which no "level" can exist or be defined or described.

>

> Regards.

>

> Nair

>

> _____________

>

> advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

> >

> > The reference is likely to be to 'ajapa japa'.

September 16, 2002

Namaste Sunderji.

Thanks for the exact quotes. I was quoting from a very old memory.

No disagreement about the ever-existent "fourth" - turiya. Let us

keep It out of this. We are talking about the different levels of

japa. I only meant that the "aajyadhaarayaa srotasaa samam japam",

which is described as "ajapa japa", is

only "saralachintanam". "Chintanam" falls within the purview of the

mind.

Regards.

Madathil Nair

______________________

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

You have reversed the sequence!

>

> uttamastavaaduchchamandataH |

> chittajaM japadhyaanamuttamam.h || 6.

>

> aajyadhaarayaa srotasaa samam.h |

> saralachintanaM viralataH param.h || 7.

>

> Effortless dhyaana is same as turiya, if I understand it correctly

> (the so-called 'fourth' is the ever-existent).

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunder

September 17, 2002

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

>

>"ajapa japa", is

> only "saralachintanam". "Chintanam" falls within the purview of

the

> mind.

Namaste,

Agree! with the proviso that 'chitta' is a non-entity at this

stage, and is mentioned only as a way of expression.

Regards,

Sunder

September 17, 2002

My dear noble devotee of Sri Sankara

Bhagavatpujyapada,

Glory be to the Lotus Feet of Sri Ramana Bhagavan!!!

I don't think I am in any way contradicting Sri Ramana

Bhagavan. I am only trying to explain the sukshma

sarira of the thought process within languaging.

Such contemplation is again mAnasika and, therefore,

should belong to

the third level irrespective of whether the object is

In the karana sarira,there is no mentation since there

is no mind. Am I right ,sir? It is only in the sukshma

and sthula sariras there is a possibility of

mentation.

At this level, there is a mere thinking of x as x by

thought; there is another thinking of x as x by

identification with x.This is what I am trying to say.

Beyond this process, there is neither identification

nor thinking. It is the karana sarira where avidya is

enveoping the individual consciousness like a tiny

little star enveloped by the clouds in the dark night

and in deep sleep there is the absence of knowledge

while in samadhi - which I have not attained and about

which I cannot talk authoritatively,there is awareness

according to the enlightened. This is the third level

- sthula,first;sukshma,second; and karana ,third. So I

am only trying to look at the issue as an ordinary

linguist.The fourth is the turiyam beyond the karana.

In this process of tracking thought and its origin, a

layman like me will easily get to the awareness of the

aham sphurana which Sri Ramana Bhagavan most

benevelently points out and he further asks us to

find the origin of this first thought of all

thoughts.This origin is the problem.It is from here

the thought design of I springs and from there the

other thoughts.I want to investigate the how of this

patterning.

I may kindly be corrected of my ignorance in this

vicharam.

Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada's love

Chilukuri Bhuvaneswar

--- Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair

wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Namaste, Sir.

Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi has beautifully dealt with the

three methods

of japa in his sweet UpadesasAram.

The fourth level written about by you is a little

confusing to me.

You are saying: "I think,there is another

higher form of japam where

there is a leap from manasika level to the actual

contemplation of

the meaning of the thought, i.e.,the objective action

of the thought

is contemplated.".

Such contemplation is again mAnasika and, therefore,

should belong to

the third level irrespective of whether the object is

vAchaka or

vAchyam. Am I right? It is said that we

have to go all the way with

the help of the mind/intellect till the question who

is it that

enquires (does the japa) is appreciated. So,

there cannot be any

fourth level. When the third (chiththajam japam

as Bh. Ramana calls

it) ends, one "knows" and keeps quiet,

because there is no way the

appreciated avyakta can be described.

Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

Pranams.

Madathil Nair

____

But advaitin, Bhuvaneswar Chilukuri

wrote:

>

> NOW THE POINT IS: IF WE TRY TO TAKE IT BACK

FURTHER

> FROM THAT SUBTLE STATE TO ITS ORIGIN,WE GET

INTO

> BLANKNESS,DARKNESS.BUT BEHIND THE DAKNESS THERE

IS AN

> AWARENESS OF THE DARKNESS.pLEASE TRY TO PROBE HOW

THAT

> SPRINGING OF THE THOUGHT COMES.SINCE YOU ARE

> INTERESTED IN AUM WHOSE MEANING IS ALL

CREATION

> INCLUSIVE,IT AMOUNTS SELF REALIZATION,iF YOU TRY

THIS

> METHOD.Probably,then you can tell me

authoratitively

> what that avyakta is.

</tt>

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______________________

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September 17, 2002

Bhuvaneswar Chilukuri wrote:

So I request you to start with small ideas

encompassing different feelings.Please critically

trace the path of the origin of your thoughts.First,

you record why a particular thought has emanated.If

you start with base thoughts ,you will easily trace

the CAUSE of such creations.I am only at this stage

now.Let me take you as a case study and map out the

results and cross-check our findings.When we

successfully uncover these little secrets then we can

try the second stage which you are I think interested

as you said about AUM.

---------------------------

Dear Shri Bhuvaneshwarji,

Thank you so much for your guidance for meditation.

Somehow, I have been of the opinion that I should, in my efforts to unravel the

path to liberation,follow the Scriptural injunction that "AUM" is to be resorted

to as "Alambanaa"and feel like fully endorsing the Veda Vak:"Etad aalambanam

sreshtham, etad aalambanam param., etad aalambanam gyaathwaa Brahmaloke

maheeyate"

Again, whenever I repeat this Verse from the Upanishad I get a feeling of

remorse that after all, this is going to take me only to Brahmaloka from where

this soul is sure to return to this loka or to a baser loka as per our own

scriptures! (Idam vaa heenataram vaa vishanti)

I strongly feel that in my meditation I should not "THINK".

No thought whatsoever should be allowed to emenate in meditation.In my current

practice I am trying to be in a state of "Amana" i.e."Non-Mind"

So, why should I first think atall and then try to trace that thought?

Shall come back to you again in this thread.

Hari Om!

Swaminarayan

News - Today's headlines

September 17, 2002

Namaste Sunder Saab.

I have no means to confirm this. Will send you a mail hopefully when

I reach there. So long then.

Best wishes.

Madathil Nair

______________________

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

>

> Agree! with the proviso that 'chitta' is a non-entity at

this

> stage, and is mentioned only as a way of expression.

September 17, 2002

Namaste Madathilji,

That will be, in Sri Ramakrishna's words, like 'the salt

doll reporting on the depth of the ocean'!

Regards,

Sunder

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

>

> I have no means to confirm this. Will send you a mail hopefully

when

>

September 18, 2002

My dear Bhubaneswar-Ji,

Thanks for the elaborate clarification on your view-point.

You asked: "In the karana sarira, there is no mentation since there

is no mind. Am I right?".

My answer: Honestly, I don't know much about these sareeras except

this corporeal one which is instrumental in making this communication

possible. Although I have read and have an academic appreciation of

the other sareeras, I have never laboured to find out where one ends

and the other starts. So, I am totally incompetent and inadequately

informed to answer your question.

However, what I can say from experience repeat experience is that,

even in our "normal waking operating hours", there are many moments

when we don't identify with an "I" (an ego or doership). The

duration of such moments vary from person to person. For example,

one who has a diseased body and is very much anxious about it finds

it very difficult to escape getting overburdened by the body-thought

or "sufferer-ship" except in deep sleep. For one who has a punctured

ego, it will be equally difficult not to undergo the resultant mental

torment and indignation. However, there are many fortunate people

who really enjoy a relatively free life drifting like golden clouds

in the azure spring sky despite having more or less or least of such

problems. Not all of them are vedantins.

What I mean to say is that one can be a doer without the doership

even in this "normal waking operating mode" when one is spontaneous,

i.e. in ones very natural mode. I can see the evening star without

having the seership. Literally, I become the star then. The seership

emerges only when I analyse the experience and realize that "I" saw

something. The same happens when I listen to music. But I can't

be that natural with my mother-in-law if I can't relate with her

properly. Then, there is the slighted son-in-law-ship. The problem

then is definitely with me – not with the mother-in-law. Advaita

becomes practical when I see the stars, mother-in-law and the rest of

all creation down to the wriggling worms with spontaneity, i.e.

without a "seership" and a sense of separation or a feeling

that "I " am seeing something other than me. Then I am in love with

everything – nay, I am love personified. To such an accomplished

person, there is no need to delve into the meditation swimming pool

morning and evening, look for the various sareeras, and reemerge with

answers - for, to him, even this very corporeal sareera is "non-

existent" - I mean it is something that is there at his command if

at all and when he needs it.

Meditation should be the means to attain the above-mentioned

spontaneity. What is the point in seeking to identify the different

sareeras and undoing them one by one like peeling an onion to look

into what is right at the centre? Meditation can be used for doing

vichara - for contemplation – without a sense of meditatorship. I

meditate doing Lalita Sahasranaama japa. My mind may not be on the

names of the Devi always. That is impossible. I am not unhappy about

it. Her naamavali provides a continuous background on which I can

fall back at any time. My mind is engaged in vichara – vichara on

the advaitic vision - the scriptural truth that I am everything and,

if that be the truth, then there is no need for an "I" that sees

itself as separate from the rest. Here vichara is done by the mind

but I don't see the mind as a separate entity. So, there is no need

for me to undo it or overcome it. There is not even an awareness of

its existence. Everything is one mass of consciousness, which is

Lalita Herself. Call it samaadhi, if you want. Qualify it with any

adjectives like nirvikalpa, savikalpa, samprajnata*, asamprajnata*

etc. It does not matter. This vichara should continue whenever and

wherever possible – not while "sitting" for meditation alone. Only

this can bestow the above spontaneity I talked about and when that

happens nothing ever matters. Other thoughts will come and go as

usual. They don't bother because they are not any more separate. Is

there then anything more to look for? Is there then any

investigation into the thought-patterning to be carried out?

Kaupeenavanta khalu bhAgyavanta!

This is my understanding and point of view. I believe my very limited

knowledge of our scriptures and the advice of mentors have brought me

here. If this clarifies, I am more than happy.

Pranams.

Madathil Nair

P.S.:

1. This does not mean that I have had samadhi. This only means that

I will not know if and when I have it. Who cares as long as She is

all around and I am Her?

2. Sunderji, salt that knows its solubility does not bother about

the extent to which it has dissolved. Neither does it care to know

when and if it has completely disappeared.

* as quoted in a recent post

______

advaitin, Bhuvaneswar Chilukuri <bhuvaneswarc> wrote:

It is only in the sukshma

> and sthula sariras there is a possibility of

> mentation.

> At this level, there is a mere thinking of x as x by

> thought; there is another thinking of x as x by

> identification with x.This is what I am trying to say.

> Beyond this process, there is neither identification

> nor thinking. It is the karana sarira where avidya is

> enveoping the individual consciousness like a tiny

> little star enveloped by the clouds in the dark night

> and in deep sleep there is the absence of knowledge

> while in samadhi - which I have not attained and about

> which I cannot talk authoritatively,there is awareness

> according to the enlightened. This is the third level

> - sthula,first;sukshma,second; and karana ,third. So I

> am only trying to look at the issue as an ordinary

> linguist.The fourth is the turiyam beyond the karana.

>

> In this process of tracking thought and its origin, a

> layman like me will easily get to the awareness of the

> aham sphurana which Sri Ramana Bhagavan most

> benevelently points out and he further asks us to

> find the origin of this first thought of all

> thoughts.This origin is the problem.It is from here

> the thought design of I springs and from there the

> other thoughts.I want to investigate the how of this

> patterning.

September 18, 2002

Namaste. Madathilnairji, Your plea for spontaneity and

naturalness in the effort at spirituality is marvellous.

Personally I would like to know more about your background and

the path you trod to arrive at such clarity. I reproduce part of

your post below, mostly to emphasize its contents:

-------------------------------

Nairji:

.......Meditation should be the means to attain the

above-mentioned spontaneity. What is the point in seeking to

identify the different sareeras and undoing them one by one like

peeling an onion to look into what is right at the centre?

Meditation can be used for doing vichara - for contemplation –

without a sense of meditatorship. I meditate doing Lalita

Sahasranaama japa. My mind may not be on the names of the Devi

always. That is impossible. I am not unhappy about it. Her

naamavali provides a continuous background on which I can fall

back at any time. My mind is engaged in vichara – vichara on

the advaitic vision - the scriptural truth that I am everything

and, if that be the truth, then there is no need for an "I" that

sees itself as separate from the rest. Here vichara is done by

the mind but I don't see the mind as a separate entity. So,

there is no need for me to undo it or overcome it. There is not

even an awareness of its existence. Everything is one mass of

consciousness, which is Lalita Herself. Call it samaadhi, if

you want. Qualify it with any adjectives like nirvikalpa,

savikalpa, samprajnata*, asamprajnata* etc. It does not matter.

This vichara should continue whenever and wherever possible –

not while "sitting" for meditation alone. Only this can bestow

the above spontaneity I talked about and when that happens

nothing ever matters. Other thoughts will come and go as usual.

They don't bother because they are not any more separate. Is

there then anything more to look for? Is there then any

investigation into the thought-patterning to be carried out?

Kaupeenavanta khalu bhAgyavanta!

----------------------------

VK: The idea - or call it strategy -- that the names of God, the

recitation of these names, and their recalling, even mentally,

is the only panacea for preventing the mind from its constant

and persistently repetitive dwelling on the mundane and the

worldly routine , has been used by all our saints and seers from

ancient times. It is not necessary that these be the names of

God. As you said, it can be Atma vicAra, encompassed in

beautiful language by great giants of spirituality from

YAjnavalkya down to Ramana and Kanchi Paramacharya. In fact

this is also an antidote to all our intellectual hairsplitting

speculations about what is which, and who meant what.

Intellectual speculations can carry us far, of course, but after

a certain stage, we have to say 'Thus far and no further'.

I salute you, Nairji!

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

http://finance.

September 19, 2002

Namaste Prof. Krishnamurthyji.

Immense thanks for your kind words and personal interest to know more

about me. You are making me feel flattered again. I will be sending

a detailed post to you directly.

Thanks once again.

Humble pranams.

Madathil Nair

_______________

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> Namaste. Madathilnairji, Your plea for spontaneity and

> naturalness in the effort at spirituality is marvellous.

> Personally I would like to know more about your background and

> the path you trod to arrive at such clarity.

September 19, 2002

Namaste Sri Nair:

Your recent postings are unique in their style and content of the

presentations. Instead of just sending to Profvk, please feel free

to post to the list (if you don't mind) so that others get

inspirations from your experience.

warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

> Namaste Prof. Krishnamurthyji.

>

> Immense thanks for your kind words and personal interest to know

more

> about me. You are making me feel flattered again. I will be

> sending a detailed post to you directly.

>

September 20, 2002

My dear noble devotee of Sri Sankara

Bhagavatpujyapada,

First of all may I thank humbly for spending so much

of your precoius time to write to me.

Second, I have been hearing the argument that one need

not know about all the sastraik knowledge.If it were

the case then why did the satras come in the first

place?

Third,those people who drift like golden clouds do so

not spontaneously.They must have worked for such a

stage by the dissolution of their desires,vasanas and

gunas.Happiness is a result of this process.It does

not just come of its own.If that were the the case why

not all people get it .Our anubhavam tells that it is

not so.

May I salute you for being a devotee of Sri

Lalithamba, a rare fortune for any one indeed!

In Sri Lalitha Sahasranamam, there is an elaborate

description of the three sareeras from the

beginning.Why is it so ? Does it mean that they are

only meant for academic exposition? Or is there any

other motive for their description in that Most

auspicious chant of Sri Lalithamba?

It is because of the punyam my mother did that I could

touch that Holy Book.

PARA PRATHYAK CHITI RUPA PASYANTI PARA DEVATHA

MADHYAMA VAIKHARI RUPA BHAKTAMANASA HAMSIKA

is a description of Sri Lalithamba.The three circles

in Sri Chakram are the three sareeras of Sri

Lalithamba. Without knowing what is what how can some

one reach a destination? For laymen like me,knowledge

is absolutely essential.How can I cure my disease of

the thought world without knowing what,how , when and

wherefrom they come ? Whatever meditation I do ,at

that moment the thought may be suppressed but again

when I get out of it the thoughts come back as usual.

So I must trace the path of thinking so that I know

how and why it comes and then only I will be in a

position to destroy it from whence it comes .I believe

that even in every day life knowledge is important.

That is why I am seeking the satsanga of aadvaitis

like your group.

Please ,please note that I have not come to guide

anyone.That is the job of Sri Sankara

Bhagavatpujyapada. I only want to test my ideas on

advaita so that I will complete my research .

Sri Swami Narayanan asks why should I think ? Can he

escape from thinking even if he wants to as long as he

does not trace back the thought to its origin where it

automatically resides and gets lost as and when he

bombards the thinker of that thought with the question

of where does he come from. The knowledge of the

nature of thought is essential I think.

I may kindly be corrected of my ignorance: Someone who

does not have the parachute of knowledge will shatter

himself if he jumps from the sky of the samsara on to

the base of Brahmavastha.

Please, all I want to know at this stage is how does a

thought emanate ???

May I once again express my gratitude to you for your

kind atttention.

Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada's Love,

Chilukuri bhuvaneswar

--- Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair

wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

My dear Bhubaneswar-Ji,

Thanks for the elaborate clarification on your

view-point.

You asked: "In the karana sarira, there is

no mentation since there

is no mind. Am I right?".

My answer: Honestly, I don't know much about

these sareeras except

this corporeal one which is instrumental in making

this communication

possible. Although I have read and have an

academic appreciation of

the other sareeras, I have never laboured to find out

where one ends

and the other starts. So, I am totally

incompetent and inadequately

informed to answer your question.

However, what I can say from experience repeat

experience is that,

even in our "normal waking operating hours",

there are many moments

when we don't identify with an "I" (an ego

or doership). The

duration of such moments vary from person to

person. For example,

one who has a diseased body and is very much anxious

about it finds

it very difficult to escape getting overburdened by

the body-thought

or "sufferer-ship" except in deep

sleep. For one who has a punctured

ego, it will be equally difficult not to undergo the

resultant mental

torment and indignation. However, there are many

fortunate people

who really enjoy a relatively free life drifting like

golden clouds

in the azure spring sky despite having more or

less or least of such

problems. Not all of them are vedantins.

What I mean to say is that one can be a doer without

the doership

even in this "normal waking operating mode"

when one is spontaneous,

i.e. in ones very natural mode. I can see the

evening star without

having the seership. Literally, I become the star

then. The seership

emerges only when I analyse the experience and realize

that "I" saw

something. The same happens when I listen to

music. But I can't

be that natural with my mother-in-law if I can't

relate with her

properly. Then, there is the slighted

son-in-law-ship. The problem

then is definitely with me – not with the

mother-in-law. Advaita

becomes practical when I see the stars, mother-in-law

and the rest of

all creation down to the wriggling worms with

spontaneity, i.e.

without a "seership" and a sense of

separation or a feeling

that "I " am seeing something other than

me. Then I am in love with

everything – nay, I am love personified. To such

an accomplished

person, there is no need to delve into the meditation

swimming pool

morning and evening, look for the various sareeras,

and reemerge with

answers - for, to him, even this very corporeal

sareera is "non-

existent" - I mean it is something that is

there at his command if

at all and when he needs it.

Meditation should be the means to attain the

above-mentioned

spontaneity. What is the point in seeking to

identify the different

sareeras and undoing them one by one like peeling an

onion to look

into what is right at the centre? Meditation can

be used for doing

vichara - for contemplation – without a sense of

meditatorship. I

meditate doing Lalita Sahasranaama japa. My mind may

not be on the

names of the Devi always. That is impossible. I am not

unhappy about

it. Her naamavali provides a continuous

background on which I can

fall back at any time. My mind is engaged in

vichara – vichara on

the advaitic vision - the scriptural truth that

I am everything and,

if that be the truth, then there is no need for an

"I" that sees

itself as separate from the rest. Here vichara is done

by the mind

but I don't see the mind as a separate entity. So,

there is no need

for me to undo it or overcome it. There is not

even an awareness of

its existence. Everything is one mass of

consciousness, which is

Lalita Herself. Call it samaadhi, if you

want. Qualify it with any

adjectives like nirvikalpa, savikalpa, samprajnata*,

asamprajnata*

etc. It does not matter. This vichara should

continue whenever and

wherever possible – not while "sitting" for

meditation alone. Only

this can bestow the above spontaneity I talked about

and when that

happens nothing ever matters. Other thoughts

will come and go as

usual. They don't bother because they are not

any more separate. Is

there then anything more to look for? Is there

then any

investigation into the thought-patterning to be

carried out?

Kaupeenavanta khalu bhAgyavanta!

This is my understanding and point of view. I believe

my very limited

knowledge of our scriptures and the advice of mentors

have brought me

here. If this clarifies, I am more than

happy.

Pranams.

Madathil Nair

P.S.:

1. This does not mean that I have had

samadhi. This only means that

I will not know if and when I have it. Who cares

as long as She is

all around and I am Her?

2. Sunderji, salt that knows its solubility does

not bother about

the extent to which it has dissolved. Neither

does it care to know

when and if it has completely disappeared.

* as quoted in a recent post

______

advaitin, Bhuvaneswar Chilukuri

<bhuvaneswarc> wrote:

It is only in the sukshma

> and sthula sariras there is a possibility of

> mentation.

> At this level, there is a mere thinking of x as x

by

> thought; there is another thinking of x as x

by

> identification with x.This is what I am trying to

say.

> Beyond this process, there is neither

identification

> nor thinking. It is the karana sarira where

avidya is

> enveoping the individual consciousness like a

tiny

> little star enveloped by the clouds in the dark

night

> and in deep sleep there is the absence of

knowledge

> while in samadhi - which I have not attained and

about

> which I cannot talk authoritatively,there is

awareness

> according to the enlightened. This is the third

level

> - sthula,first;sukshma,second; and karana ,third.

So I

> am only trying to look at the issue as an

ordinary

> linguist.The fourth is the turiyam beyond the

karana.

>

> In this process of tracking thought and its

origin, a

> layman like me will easily get to the awareness

of the

> aham sphurana which Sri Ramana Bhagavan most

> benevelently points out and he further asks

us to

> find the origin of this first thought of all

> thoughts.This origin is the problem.It is from

here

> the thought design of I springs and from

there the

> other thoughts.I want to investigate the how of

this

> patterning.

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September 20, 2002

My dear noble devotee of Sri Sankara

Bhagavatpujyapada,

Thank you very much for your kind reply.

First, let me humbly inform you that I have no

intention of guiding you at all.It is for the saints.

I am approaching you like a student of advaita without

scriptural and spiritual realization of God.

Please dont go into amanasa so quickly before giving

me some sweet quotations from the sastras! You see how

selfish I am. I have traced the cause of this

thought,now. Having traced its cause,now I make an

effort to be not selfish,i.e.,I am attacking the guna

and vasana complex. Next ,I ask to whom does it come

first of all? To me. I trace the thought to

ME<YES<ME.

Now I feel the ME.It is real. It is like a tiny star

glowing behind a mass of Darkness.I stay there funnily

without any thought whatsoever.I want to further trace

wherefrom it came.Haha, it broke. I am back to your

name.That is the point. Unless I destroy the Me

itself I think I will not be able to be amanasa.And

to know that I have to think.

Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada's love,

Chilukuri Bhuvaneswar

--- Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Bhuvaneswar Chilukuri wrote:

So I request you to start with small ideas

encompassing different feelings.Please critically

trace the path of the origin of your

thoughts.First,

you record why a particular thought has

emanated.If

you start with base thoughts ,you will easily

trace

the CAUSE of such creations.I am only at this

stage

now.Let me take you as a case study and map out

the

results and cross-check our findings.When we

successfully uncover these little secrets then we

can

try the second stage which you are I think

interested

as you said about AUM.

---------------------------

Dear Shri Bhuvaneshwarji,

Thank you so much for your guidance for

meditation.

Somehow, I have been of the opinion that I should, in

my efforts to unravel the path to liberation,follow

the Scriptural injunction that "AUM" is to

be resorted to as "Alambanaa"and feel like

fully endorsing the Veda Vak:"Etad aalambanam

sreshtham, etad aalambanam param., etad aalambanam

gyaathwaa Brahmaloke maheeyate"

Again, whenever I repeat this Verse from the Upanishad

I get a feeling of remorse that after all, this is

going to take me only to Brahmaloka from where this

soul is sure to return to this loka or to a baser loka

as per our own scriptures! (Idam vaa heenataram vaa

vishanti)

I strongly feel that in my meditation I should not

"THINK".

No thought whatsoever should be allowed to emenate in

meditation.In my current practice I am trying to be in

a state of "Amana"

i.e."Non-Mind"

So, why should I first think atall and then try to

trace that thought?

Shall come back to you again in this thread.

Hari Om!

Swaminarayan

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September 21, 2002

My dear Bhuvaneswarji.

Reference your post 14734.

I will try to be as short as possible. But when it comes to Vedanta,

I am noisy and talkative. Can't help it.

I believe you meant the pramanAs by sAstrik knowledge. Pramanas are

the landmarks. They are like light houses. We need them to do

vichAra without getting lost. I have made this clear in my previous

two posts.

Your understanding of my metaphor of people who drift like golden

clouds in an azure sky is cent percent right. I employed that

metaphor to drive home the point that such people exist, that we

could be like them in this very birth if only we did proper vichAra

on our true nature according to pramAnas, and that meditation

opportunities could be utilized to do this vichAra instead of using

them to tirelessly prod at the unknown. Such constant vichAra

ultimately delivers even without the need of samAdhi stopovers! One

who does not do vichAra can have a samAdhi "experience". But once he

comes out of samAdhi, he goes back to his old ways of ignorance.

Thank you for quoting from our Mother Lalita's nAmAvali. Please

consider the last name of your quote – bhaktamAnasa hamsika: the

swan of the mAnasa (lake) of the devotee. The swan is where? In the

mAnasa. So, we are still at mAnasa level. We can't afford to end

that mAnasa! Our most beautiful swan is there. Please look at the

swan. The mAnasa is not seen any more. Bhuvaneswarji doesn't exist.

Only She exists – the one who shines like a million Suns. And, lo!

All of a sudden the realization dawns – "I am looking at myself". I

hope you got the point. Please try to see that hamsika all the time –

at the bus stop, at the market place, in your classroom, when you

look at the eyes of your students (You are a teacher, I remember! How

wonderful!). She will take care of you and answer your doubts.

Isn't She avidyAnam antastimiradweepanagari? (Saundarya Lahari).

Now about thoughts bothering you. Why should they bother you? Do

the stars bother you? No. Why? Because they are out there and they

are not yours. Thoughts bother you because you feel that they

are "your" thoughts, they concern you and they are inside you.

Please sit and look at them like you look at the stars. You can see

them come, twinkle in your mental space and go. It is like sitting at

Chicago airport and watching the planes land one after another.

Simply look at them. It may be the wife thought. Salute her and let

her pass. Wives are most demanding. Don't go after that thought.

It may be money thought which has a very great pull. Salute and

leave it to pass. Mind you, Bhuvaneswarji, this watching is great

fun. It is like JohnL of our list watching the grass grow. Who is

the watcher – you Bhuvaneswarji. You are the big light from which

those little thoughts borrowed their light. And you are worried

about them?! The Sun worrying about the candles! So, don't ever

think of destroying your thoughts or your mind, which is nothing but

a flow of thoughts. Have them, treasure them, watch them and be

yourself inspite of them. Then they go away because they are

intelligent enough to understand that you don't care to entertain

them. With them, your desire to get at the root of your thoughts

will also vanish because you already know that the "root" is you –

the brilliant hamsika! The root of not the thoughts alone but the

whole universe that you experience!

No one can escape thinking like no one can escape breathing (na

kaschit ksanamapi …… (BG)). But don't think that I am thinking and I

am breathing. Be the witness of both which you actually are. That

witness dictates your thoughts but does not think. The thinker who

has the thinkership thinks that he thinks and then grieves! That is

not you. You are the witness.

May I reverse metaphor at the end of your post? SamsAra is down

below. BrahmAvasta is the sky. You need the rocket and fuel of

proper knowledge (pramAnAs)and vichAra on them to send you up there

and place you in permanent orbit!

Now, please join me in singing the thousand names of our Hamsika, Sri

Lalita Parameswari.

Pranams.

Madathil Nair

advaitin, Bhuvaneswar Chilukuri <bhuvaneswarc> wrote:

September 21, 2002

http://www.blessingsonthenet.com/geeta/home.asp

Musical rendering in 18 diffrent melodious Hindustani ragas by Shri Rajkumar

Bharathi.

Blessings messages from H.H.jagadguru Swami Jayendra Saraswathi,Sankaracharya of

kanchi kamakoti peetam.

Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote: My dear Bhuvaneswarji.