Gita Satsangh: Chapter 8 Verses 20 to 22 - Additional Clarifications

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Ken knight rightly said (Message 14549) that

 

“English is

not subtle in its philosophical insights and most of

us do not have the etymological tools to peel away the

grimy layers of added meanings”. This is what has happened to

our discussion on the conundrum (Nairji’s pleasant title of this

tangle) of ‘avyakta’, the unmanifest.

 

The word ‘avyakta’ occurs five times in all in the portion

under discussion, namely

Two times in sloka 18.

Two times in sloka 20.

And once in sloka 21.

I shall use the word ‘unmanifest’ hereafter, so that the

repeated use of ‘avyakta’ in the post may not drive away those

with whom Sanskrit may not be very friendly.

The twice used ‘unmanifest’ in sloka 18 is actually the same

‘unmanifest’ though Krishna takes care to refer to it as ‘the

so-called unmanifest’ when he uses it the second time.

The gist of #18 is: From the ‘unmanifest’ all the manifest is

produced.

Here as Ken rightly pointed out, ‘unmanifest’ is prakriti or

mAya. So far no problem.

Let us come to Sloka 20. Let us refresh ourselves with a

translation:

Sloka 20: But verily there exists, higher than the unmanifested,

another unmanifested eternal being who is not destroyed when all

beings are destroyed.

 

Nairji in #s 14591 and 14598, focussed on the irresolubility of

the two ‘unmanifests’ (one of sloka 18 and one of sloka 20).

Later in #14626 and #14639 he wrote elaborately on this and

explained how he lost his sleep thinking about the ‘conundrum’.

His analysis of the analogy of a rainbow and the analogy of the

friend in the hospital lying in a coma, are very

thought-provoking. Swaminarayan concorded in #14638 with Nairji

that 'unmanifested' flanks 'manifested' on either side. And in

#14640 Nairji wrote that there is no more confusion because

‘Purusha is beyond the unmanifested’, thus spilling into Slokas

21 and 22.

Sundarji in #14600, suggested the physical-vital-mental selves’

as one unmanifest and the intellectual-blissful selves as the

other unmanifest. He later hinted that this may answer to the

‘unmanifest’ of sloka 21 also. In #14646, he wanted us to look

into the commentary on Kathopanishad.

 

The ‘another unmanifested eternal being’ could be the

supra-cosmic unmanifest according to Aurobindo, as I pointed out

in #14616 and Sunderji supplemented this by explaining that

Aurobindo really took the first ‘unmanifest’ in the Sankhya

sense and the second one in the vedantic sense. This agrees with

the original suggestion of Kenji that the first ‘unmanifest’ is

prakriti and the ‘another unmanifested eternal being’ is nothing

but the imperishable immutable Absolute. This is also concordant

with the conclusion of Sadanandaji’s eloquent post in #14614,

where, with his usual clarity he shows up one ‘unmanifest’ at

the Iswara-mAyA level and the ‘another unmanifested being’ at

the Absolute Level, where there is nothing but brahman. This is

again concordant with Savithri Devarj’s post quoting Swami

Sachidanandrendra Saraswathi’s interpretations, clinching the

issue. Let us remember Ken’s comment (quoted at the beginning of

this post) on the failure of the English language to catch the

added meanings of the philosophical literature in Sanskrit!

 

In #14641 Bhuvaneshwar Chilukuri asks how the

transition from the unmanifested state to the manifested state

takes place in the case of creation

,i.e.,physical,mental,and vocal action. This transition is the

great cosmic mystery. Exactly this is the mAyA. No use asking

for an explanation of mAyA works. If only we had the answer to

this question we would know 'the mind of God' - inthe language

of Stephen Hawking!

 

To wind up this post in which, just for my own sake, I tried to

write a summary of the discussion, let me quote the relevant

portion from Sankara’s commentary on Katha Upanishad, as

suggested by Sunderji. Here it is:

Avyaktam, the Unmanifested – that which is the seed of the whole

universe, the essence of unmanifested name and form, the state

of aggregation of all powers of cause and effects, called by

such names as ‘avyakta’ (Unmanifested), ‘avyAkRta’ (Unevolved),

AkAsha, (Spacce), etc. resting on the Supreme Self through and

through like the potentiality of a banyan tree in a tiny banyan

seed. (from Swami Gambhirananda’s translation of Kathopanishad

I.iii.11)

 

Here is another passage, again that of Sankara, from his

prakaraNa work called panchI-karaNam. (Translation by Advaita

Ashrama, Kolkatta):

 

Bound up with the reflection of Pure Consciousness, the

Nescience (mAya or Ignorance) which hides the Atman and is the

cause of both the gross and the subtle bodies, is called the

‘avyAkRta’ or undifferentiated. This is the causal body of the

Atman. This is neither existent nor non-existent, nor even both

existent and non-existent; neither different from, nor identical

with, nor both different from and identical with, the Atman.

This Nescience is neither composite, nor both composite and

non-composite, but removable by the knowledge of the identity of

Brahman and the Atman alone.

----------------------------

Finally, I have a comment to make. It is actually Ramana

Maharishi’s. He says: I tell you there is no snake; there is

only the rope. You are all spending time on whether the snake is

a cobra or a speckled viper!

 

The important thing for our context is the sloka #22 which is

the climax to which the Lord is taking us.

 

With praNAms to all advaitins,

profvk

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> With praNAms to all advaitins,

> profvk

 

your manifested post on the unmanifest gives a panoramic vision of

the discussions on the unmanifest! - Now we know why we keep calling

you as professor!

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namate;

 

It is good to have a professor among us so that we can understand the

concepts thoroughly. ProfVK has excelled in his explanations and we

are very fortunate that he agreed to take this additional load.

 

My explanations below will serve as additional corollaries to the

theorems explained by ProfVK.

 

Verse 20

 

The word Avyakta taken together with the demonstrative adjective

Tasmat refers to the Unmanifest mentioned in verse 18 (where all

embodied beings merge during a Brahmic night). Another existence

distinct from this is explained by Adhiyagna in verse 4 of this

chapter. Several other adjectives which include 'The All-wise Eternal

Being (verse 9), Supreme Divine Person (verse 10) and Supreme Person

(verse 22). In the upcoming chapters there are additional

descriptions of the Unmanifest aspects of God.

 

Gita clearly distinguishes between Nirguana and Saguna Brahman. The

Nirguna Brhaman is the purest unmanifest form or the stage

of 'Nirvana.' Then the Saguna Brhaman as the Supreme Lord or the

Controller of the Universe is also presented in two distinct form -

manifested and unmanifested. There is a clear distinction in the

terminology and that needs explanation. The Lord can expand and

contract expressing Himself through cycles of birth and death -

being and non-being, night and day, good and evil, etc. Evidently

time and space are introduced to accommodate our understanding of

the distinction between the manifest and unmanifest form of the Lord

(Saguna Brahman). This entire phenomena is unexplainable and

conveniently denoted by the terminology - spell of mAyA.

 

All beings in this verse stands for the whole multitude of embodied

beings, both sentient and insentient, who appear during Brahma's day

and disappear during his night, including their mind, senses, bodies,

objects of enjoyment and abodes, etc. The absorption of these beings,

divested of their gross and subtle bodies, into the primordial

Prakrti, or undifferentiated Maya, during the Final Dissolution is

what has been spoken of here as their destruction. Even at that time

the supreme Divine Purusa or God, who is the supervisor of that

Prakrti, and has been referred to here as the eternal Unmanifest,

exists in His on, absorbing within Himself all those beings together

with Prakrti itself.

 

Verse 21

 

The words Unmanifest and Indestructible, in their verses, stand for

the same Adhiyagna who has been referred to as the eternal unmanifest

in the preceding verse and as the supreme Divine Purusa in verse 12

of this chapter. The words supreme Goal denote the state of

liberation or final beatitude, which is the highest worth attaining,

the attainment of which, leaves nothing to be attained, and which

brings the total cessation at all forms of suffering as soon as it is

attained.

Therefore supreme Goal stands here for the absolute formless

Divinity, the embodiment of Truth, Knowledge and Bliss, who is spoken

of as the supreme Indestructible. (chapter, VIII 13). The eternal

Abode of God, being all truth, all knowledge and all bliss, and also

divine and sentient in character, is in reality identical with God.

Therefore, the supreme Abode mentioned in this verse stands for the

Lord's eternal Abode, His very being and His divine state. That is to

say, there is no difference in reality between the attainment of the

eternal Abode of God, of the divine state and of God Himself.

 

Verse 22

 

Just as the four elements of air, fire, water and earth are part and

parcel of ether, the entire creation consisting of sentient and

insentient beings is part and parcel of God. The creation has

emanated from God and on God alone does it rest. This is what is

meant by the statement that all beings reside in the supreme Purusa.

Similarly, the statement that all this is pervaded by the supreme

Purusa should be understood to mean that just as air, fire, water and

earth are all pervaded by ether, even so the entire creation is

pervaded by God. The same idea has also been elaborated in verses 4,

5 and 6 of Chapter IX. The supreme Purusa mentioned in this verse

stands for the all-pervading Adhiyagna aspect of God. The formless

God with attributes, whose worship has been discussed in verses 8, 9

and 10 of this chapter, and the eternal Unmanifest referred to in

verse 20 are just the same as this Adhiyagna.

 

As a professional engaged in statistics and economics, it is possible

to see similarity between the term God and Statistics: The

word 'statistics' is neither plural nor singular and explain a

phenomena just like the phenomena of God. Statistics and Can both be

in the manifested and unmanifested form. Statistics in unmanifested

form is not a number. But the manifested Statistics is a number and

has many names - estimate, figure, distribution of a population,

estimator, etc. Please note an analogy such as the one given here is

just to make a point and it can't explain all aspects and is always

limited!

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada>

> > profvk

>

> your manifested post on the unmanifest gives a panoramic vision of

> the discussions on the unmanifest! - Now we know why we keep calling

> you as professor!

>

> Hari OM!

> Sadananda

>

[Guest guest]

OM/PRAABRAHMA

-> -> ->

AVYAKTA (Unmanifest)/Maya/that which is unknown

-> -> ->

Jeeva

 

The above hirachy is what is known. All that we know is beings come

from unmanifest they manifest in the middle and disappear in to the

unmanifest. But there is this Consciousness beyond unmanifest which

is ever present. The Avyakta has come into picture because the Jiva

is asking questions --- asking questions like a child who is watching

the moving pictures in the movie theatre, taking them as real he is

asking the questions. There is only one light which is playing

through the vasanas and projecting the entire universe. That light

is the Paramapurusha and the eternal disturbances, the big drama

which is taking place is coming from the Unmanifest. When the real

light behind the drama is understood, the questioner disappears.

When there is no drama where is the question of actor, who himself is

the questioner?...

 

Yours,

Madhava

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Madhava Turumella" <madhava@f...> wrote:

> OM/PRAABRAHMA

> -> -> ->

> AVYAKTA (Unmanifest)/Maya/that which is unknown

> -> -> ->

> Jeeva

>

 

Namaste,

 

This is how Jnaneshvara comments:

 

But higher than this Unmanifest, there is another being, Unmanifest

and eternal, which, when all beings perish, does not perish.

 

In this state of equilibrium, nothing does exist, nor can one say

that similar or different things exist. Just as when milk turns into

curds, it loses its name and form, so with the dissolution of its

form the world disappears (166-170). But it continues to exist as it

was before creation. This is known as Unmanifest; when it takes shape

it becomes the manifest world; the one implies the other and so they

are not two different things. When the gold is melted, it is known as

a bar of gold, but its bar form vanishes, when it is turned into

ornaments. Just as these two modifications take place in gold, so the

manifest world and the Unmanifest are the two forms of Brahman. But

that Brahman is neither manifest nor umanifest, abiding forever.

Brahman becomes the world, but does not perish with the world, just

as the meaning is not lost when the letters are erased. Look, even

when the waves come and go, water remains unaffected; so this Brahman

retains its imperishable form, even when beings perish. Just as gold

remains even when the ornaments are melted, so even when beings die,

it remains immortal.

 

 

It is called the eternal Unmanifest; they speak of it as the highest

goal. After reaching it, they do not return; that is my supreme abode.

 

 

But that supreme person, O Partha, is attainable only through

exclusive devotion. In Him all beings dwell and out of Him all this

is moven.

 

If we call it Unmanifest, we do not praise it properly; because it

cannot be comprehended by the mind of the intellect. Even if it

assumes form, it does not lose its formless nature. And with the

disappearance of its form, its eternity is not affected (176-180). It

is, therefore, called the imperishable, known as eternally present.

Since there is nothing beyond it, it is the final destination of

human life. but it is present in this body, as if asleep, as it does

not perform any function either itself or through others. However,

all the activities of the body go on without stop, and the sense

organs are free to go their own way. When the sense-objects are

presented to the mind, a measure of pleasure and pain reaches it.

When the king enjoys his sleep, the activities in his kingdom do not

stop; and his subjects continue to do their work according to their

desires (181-185). the decision - making by the intellect, the

activities of the mind and the senses, and the flow of breathing-all

these function of the body go on without any action on its part, just

as the people go their way, without being moved by the sun. O Arjuna,

since the self remains as if asleep in the body, he is called purusa.

He is also known as purusa, as prakriti is his faithful wife. The

Vedas do not enter even its courtyard, and it is so all-pervasive

that it covers the sky (186-190). Knowing thus the great yogis call

it the highest of all things, and it comes in search of the house of

all things, and it comes in search of the house of one, for whom it

is the sole resort. It presents to them who think of nothing else

with body, speech and mind, a reward, like a fertile field, for their

single-minded devotion. O son of Pandu, it is the hermitage for the

believer, who sincerely believes this universe to be the form of the

supreme self. It is the dignity of the humble, the knowledge of the

gunatita and the kingdom of bliss for the desireless, the dish served

to the contented, the asylum to the helpless, whose destination is

reached through the royal road of devotion (191-195). O Arjuna, why

should I waste my time in describing all this to you? When the self

reaches that state, he becomes one with it. Just as hot water becomes

cool when the cool breeze blows; or darkness becomes light when the

sun rises, so when empirical existence reaches that abode, it turns

into liberation. Just as when firewood is burnt in fire, no one can

recover it again, or not even a clever person can change sugar again

into sugarcane (196-200) or after iron is transformed into gold by

the touch of philosopher's stone, the gold cannot be turned back into

iron, or when ghee is made out of milk, it cannot be turned again

into milk, so there is no return for a person who has reached that

place. That place is truly My supreme abode; I am laying bare this

inner secret of mine to you.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder