Guest guest Posted September 18, 2002 Report Share Posted September 18, 2002 --- Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote: > My dear Bhubaneswar-Ji, > > Thanks for the elaborate clarification on your view-point. > > You asked: "In the karana sarira, there is no mentation since > there > is no mind. Am I right?". In the waking state - Indentification with all the three shariira-s occurs - that includes karana shariira. In the dream state the identification is with only suukshama shariira and karanashariira but not with sthuula shariira. In the deep sleep state identification with the karana shariira only. The mind or manokosha comes as a part of suukshma shariira only. Hence it is absent in the deep sleep state where there only identification with kaarana shariira only. The analysis of these only provided to inquire into the nature of jiiva as different from shariira-s. Nairji - congratulations in your meditaions. One need not go through the intellectual analysis for attaining oneself. But the analysis helps is to make us understand the oneself that I am gaining in my meditaion is the self in all - That is where the inquiry is emphasized. It is not for being oneself but understanding that oneself that I am is the self in all - aham brahama asmi. -- I am the totality. One does not need shaastra to sit down and meditate on oneself but what shaastra comes into our help as pramaana is only to establish that I am not only myslef different from all the shariira-s, I am the totality that includes all the shariira-s. sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutanicha aatmani. yo maam pasyati sarvatra - sarvatra mayi pasyati - Hence the need of inquiry and shaastra and anlaysis of the shariira too and definitely not for intellecutual juglary. Hari OM! Sadananda ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. News - Today's headlines http://news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 Namaste Sadanandaji. Hope the following imaginary conversation will help clarify what I wrote before without any ambiguity: _______________ Here is a conversation between A and B: A - How do you define the three sarIrAs? B – Don't ask me for the exact definitions. I can't define them. However, I can endeavour to describe. A – OK. Describe stUla sarIra. B - StUla sarIra is this body. Look! 5' 7" tall, dark complexion, brown-eyes, black-hair, with identification marks as mentioned in the Secondary School Certificate. A – Good. I note that it has been growing and never been the same all these years. B - You are right. It keeps changing. For that matter, there is nothing that escapes change in this world. Now let me try to describe sUkSma sarIra. What is it? I can't be very sure about it like I am about stUla. A – What is the problem? B – The problem is that it is sUkSma – subtle. They say it comprises the subtle principles from which the gross body evolves, subtle principles of the sense organs, mind, intellect etc. A – So, I should assume that sUkSma overlaps with the stUla to a considerable extent. B – Yes. You are right. The latter can't operate without the former. However, sUkSma is much less definable than stUla. A – When a person dreams, in which mode is he? In stUla or sUkSma? B – Why? In sUkSma, they say. A – Ok. If you ask the dreamer to show his stUla sarIra in a dream, what will he point at? Will he point at his dream body which is really sUkSma from the point of view of the waker? B – Yes. He will point at his dream body. These things are relative after all and depends on your plane of observation. A – I see. These things are relative. What is kArana sarIra then? B - It is the causal body – the cause of both sUkSma and stUla. They say it is the source of both, existing with the Universal Impersonal Spirit. A – How do we know that? B – No way. They say that you are the kArana sarIra when you are fast asleep and that is why you feel that you existed during dreamless sleep when the mind (part of sUkSma sarIra) was totally absent. A – I note that our attempt to understand the three sarIrAs is a journey from the known to the unknown. Am I right? B – Yes, Sir. You are right. When we traverse what represents the sUkSma, we are confronted with a virtual blank, a sort of nothingness, an unknown where you cannot peep. Hey, look! By the way, isn't this the first unmanifest we talked about a week ago in connection with BG 8.20? We have journeyed from the vyakta territory to the avyakta! A - Then why do you labour so hard trying to peep into that avyakta? Because the pramAnAs say that it is the cause? B – I should think so. I have been meditating all this while and trying hard to penetrate that unknown just to have a glimpse of my real nature. A – OK. Let us try to look at the situation from another angle. Do you see this world around you including your stUla sarIra? B – Yes. I do. A – Classify all that you can experience outside you including your body as `stUla loka' and assign them to your stUla sarIra. Then, look inside. Can you look at your thoughts, which is the mind? Look at your dream world and its contents. Do you know that you have a discriminating faculty called intellect and do you know that you have a "doership" called ego? Do you realize that you have a memory? B – Yes. I do. A – Bundle them all up and label them "sUkSma loka". What are you left with then? B – Nothing. The unknown. May be the first avyakta of BG 8.20. Darkness where they say I exist as the cause. The tunnel beyond which there is the LIGHT, which they call is my real nature. A – You are now playing with words. Just label it "the unknown". Now, what are you totally aware of? B – stUla loka and sUkSma loka. There is nothing beyond that. A – No. You are aware of the "unknown", aren't you? B – Yes. You are right. I am aware of the "unknown". I can objectify that darkness, that blank? A – Thanks. What have you been doing during meditation all this while? B – I told you I was trying to penetrate that last one – the unknown – after having negated the first two. That is what I have been taught to do. A – Have you succeeded yet? Have you found yourself? Have you completed peeling the onion yet? B – No, Sir. The more I dig, the darker it is. There is no hope. A – Don't you think you have been looking for yourself in the wrong place? You said you could see the three – sthUla loka, sUkSma loka and the unknown? Where are you then – in the unknown? Why are you excavating there incessantly? B – Looks like you have a point there. Perhaps I am looking at the wrong place. A – You are right. Do you think the three groups that you see have an independent existence without you? B – No, Sir. They are not without me. They are me, they are in me! I know what you are driving at. I am that totality. A – Who said that? B – The pramAnAs, no doubt. A – But, a while ago, you said you were following the prAmanAs while excavating in total darkness! B – I understand the mistake now. I misunderstood the pramAnAs and misapplied them. I am the totality. I am right here witnessing everything like the light that lights up the play stage. I don't have to look for me now under the dense debris of the unknown. I need only understand that I am all this that constantly changes and the unknown too and that they cannot be without me. I am the second Unmanifest of BG 8.20 that lights up everything. My pramAnAs stand vindicated and may they show me the way. __________________________ My humble pranams to all advaitins. Madathil Nair advaitin, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada> wrote: > > --- Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair> wrote: > Hence the need of inquiry and shaastra and anlaysis of the shariira > too and definitely not for intellecutual juglary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 Thanks Sri Nair. That was wonderful. Best regards. Sriram --- Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote: > Namaste Sadanandaji. > > Hope the following imaginary conversation will help > clarify what I > wrote before without any ambiguity: > > _______________ > > Here is a conversation between A and B: > > A - How do you define the three sarIrAs? > > B – Don't ask me for the exact definitions. I can't > define them. > However, I can endeavour to describe. > > A – OK. Describe stUla sarIra. > > B - StUla sarIra is this body. Look! 5' 7" tall, > dark complexion, > brown-eyes, black-hair, with identification marks as > mentioned in the > Secondary School Certificate. > > A – Good. I note that it has been growing and never > been the same > all these years. > > B - You are right. It keeps changing. For that > matter, there is > nothing that escapes change in this world. Now let > me try to > describe sUkSma sarIra. What is it? I can't be > very sure about it > like I am about stUla. > > A – What is the problem? > > B – The problem is that it is sUkSma – subtle. They > say it comprises > the subtle principles from which the gross body > evolves, subtle > principles of the sense organs, mind, intellect etc. > > A – So, I should assume that sUkSma overlaps with > the stUla to a > considerable extent. > > B – Yes. You are right. The latter can't operate > without the > former. However, sUkSma is much less definable than > stUla. > > A – When a person dreams, in which mode is he? In > stUla or sUkSma? > > B – Why? In sUkSma, they say. > > A – Ok. If you ask the dreamer to show his stUla > sarIra in a dream, > what will he point at? Will he point at his dream > body which is > really sUkSma from the point of view of the waker? > > B – Yes. He will point at his dream body. These > things are relative > after all and depends on your plane of observation. > > A – I see. These things are relative. What is > kArana sarIra then? > > B - It is the causal body – the cause of both > sUkSma and stUla. > They say it is the source of both, existing with the > Universal > Impersonal Spirit. > > A – How do we know that? > > B – No way. They say that you are the kArana sarIra > when you are fast > asleep and that is why you feel that you existed > during dreamless > sleep when the mind (part of sUkSma sarIra) was > totally absent. > > A – I note that our attempt to understand the three > sarIrAs is a > journey from the known to the unknown. Am I right? > > B – Yes, Sir. You are right. When we traverse what > represents the > sUkSma, we are confronted with a virtual blank, a > sort of > nothingness, an unknown where you cannot peep. Hey, > look! By the > way, isn't this the first unmanifest we talked about > a week ago in > connection with BG 8.20? We have journeyed from the > vyakta territory > to the avyakta! > > A - Then why do you labour so hard trying to peep > into that > avyakta? Because the pramAnAs say that it is the > cause? > > B – I should think so. I have been meditating all > this while and > trying hard to penetrate that unknown just to have a > glimpse of my > real nature. > > A – OK. Let us try to look at the situation from > another angle. Do > you see this world around you including your stUla > sarIra? > > B – Yes. I do. > > A – Classify all that you can experience outside you > including your > body as `stUla loka' and assign them to your stUla > sarIra. Then, > look inside. Can you look at your thoughts, which > is the mind? Look > at your dream world and its contents. Do you know > that you have a > discriminating faculty called intellect and do you > know that you have > a "doership" called ego? Do you realize that you > have a memory? > > B – Yes. I do. > > A – Bundle them all up and label them "sUkSma > loka". What are you > left with then? > > B – Nothing. The unknown. May be the first avyakta > of BG 8.20. > Darkness where they say I exist as the cause. The > tunnel beyond > which there is the LIGHT, which they call is my real > nature. > > A – You are now playing with words. Just label it > "the unknown". > Now, what are you totally aware of? > > B – stUla loka and sUkSma loka. There is nothing > beyond that. > > A – No. You are aware of the "unknown", aren't you? > > B – Yes. You are right. I am aware of the > "unknown". I can > objectify that darkness, that blank? > > A – Thanks. What have you been doing during > meditation all this > while? > > B – I told you I was trying to penetrate that last > one – the unknown – > after having negated the first two. That is what I > have been taught > to do. > > A – Have you succeeded yet? Have you found > yourself? Have you > completed peeling the onion yet? > > B – No, Sir. The more I dig, the darker it is. > There is no hope. > > A – Don't you think you have been looking for > yourself in the wrong > place? You said you could see the three – sthUla > loka, sUkSma loka > and the unknown? Where are you then – in the > unknown? Why are you > excavating there incessantly? > > B – Looks like you have a point there. Perhaps I > am looking at the > wrong place. > > A – You are right. Do you think the three groups > that you see have > an independent existence without you? > > B – No, Sir. They are not without me. They are me, > they are in me! > I know what you are driving at. I am that totality. > > A – Who said that? > > B – The pramAnAs, no doubt. > > A – But, a while ago, you said you were following > the === message truncated === New DSL Internet Access from SBC & http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 I find the conversation between Sri Nair and Sri Sadananda was quite helpful for me to understand the distinction between StUla and sUkSma sarIras. Sri Nair has elaborated very cleverly using a stimulated dialog and I very much appreciate this innovative approach to Internet Satsangh. I want to express my sincere appreciation to both these scholars. I want to elaborate and provide my two cents worth to Sri Sadananda's statement: "If ignorance is root cause - knowledge alone can remove the ignorance. Because of ignorance, I take myself what I am not. I can experience myself in the seat of meditation but I also need to know that is that I experience - that is knowledge of that experience - scripture alone can give us with no uncertain terms." The points that Sri Sadananda wants to convey are quite important for the advaitins and here is my understanding. First, I would say that our problem is not just 'ignorance' but 'false knowledge' based on our ignorance. This false knowledge further evades us to understand the 'True Knowledge or Wisdom." The vedantic approach to this problem is to 'reprogram' the 'false program' which requires efforts (sadhana). Most of us in this list use the computers and we have seen computer failures and they mostly happen due to faulty equipment (hardware) and operating systems (software). It seems that even the computers possess StUla (hardware) and sUkSma (software) sarIras! The statement, 'scripture alone can give us with no uncertain terms' needs additional explanations. The scripture contains lots of materials describing both the 'Samsara' and 'Sanyasa' aspects of life. In the Gita verses 23 to 28 of chapter 8 (currently under discussion) Lord distinguishes between 'transitory' and 'permanent' happiness (peace). In these verses, Lord Krishna describes the distinction between the Karmis (performers of Shastraic Karmas or rituals) and the Upasakas (meditators on Paramatman). The entire Gita as a matter of fact just provides different menus. Even to choose the correct recipe, we need 'knowledge' and that too, True knowledge! Many of our western friends miss this important aspect of our scriptures. Our scriptures especially Gita, unlike the scriptures of other religions do not impose rules and regulations. They insist that we apply our intellect, discriminate and choose the one that is right for us. Warmest regards, Ram Chandran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 Namaste. Continuing with the conversation on sarIras, here is my understanding of karaNa sarIra. Imagine a time some twenty years ago when there were no credit cards. While going out for shopping, one would take a portion of money out of one's bank account and put the same in his/her purse for spending. The sum-total of all our vasanas, karma phala and karma tendencies have to be stored off somewhere. It cannot be stUla and it cannot be sUkSma. Hence we are only left with the third one, where all such recording may take place. In one birth, one only takes a small portion out of the vast balance to spend/exhaust. Regards, Raghava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 My dear noble devotee of Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada, Thank you very much for the beautiful illustration.To add one more sentence,it is the cause of the sukshma and karana sariras. Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada's love, Chilukuri Bhuvaneswar --- raghavakaluri <raghavakaluri wrote: <HR> <html><body> <tt> Namaste.<BR> <BR> Continuing with the conversation on sarIras, here is my understanding <BR> of karaNa sarIra.<BR> <BR> Imagine a time some twenty years ago when there were no credit cards.<BR> While going out for shopping, one would take a portion of money out of <BR> one's bank account and put the same in his/her purse for spending.<BR> <BR> The sum-total of all our vasanas, karma phala and karma tendencies <BR> have to be stored off somewhere. It cannot be stUla and it cannot be <BR> sUkSma. Hence we are only left with the third one, where all such <BR> recording may take place. In one birth, one only takes a small portion <BR> out of the vast balance to spend/exhaust.<BR> <BR> Regards,<BR> Raghava<BR> <BR> </tt> <br> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b> Sponsor</b></font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF> <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td align=center><font face=arial size=-2></font><br><a href="http://rd./M=234081.2377872.3808768.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=1705075\ 991:HM/A=1225249/R=0/*of Service</a>.</tt> </br> </body></html> ______________________ Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV. visit http://in.tv.''>http://in.tv.'>http://in.tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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