Some questions on Advaita

[Guest guest]

Dear learned members,

I would request you to kindly answer the following questions on

Advaita.

 

1) I remember reading somewhere in the Brahma Sutra Bhashya of

Bhagavatpada Adi Sankaracharya that eventually when the Jiva attains

liberation, the Jiva becomes same as Brahman except that the power of

creation is not given to Jiva. Is my understanding correct?

 

2)If (1) is correct, then is there any other difference between Jiva

and Brahman? If this difference in potency of Jiva and Brahman

exists, Advaita becomes more closer to Gaudiya Vaishnava stream of

thought which professes similarity of the Jiva to Brahman in quality

(potency) but not in quantity.

 

3)I have often heard that Advaitins consider Bhakti as a lower rung

of the ladder to Jnana in the path of self realization. Is this true?

If so, is it not contrary to the statement of Bhagavad Gita 6.46 and

6.47 . i have given below the translations of those 2 verses so that

we can know if we understand the verse in a common mode :

 

6.46 - A yogi is greater than the ascetic, greater than the

empiricist and greater than the fruitive worker. Therefore, O Arjuna

in a ll circumstances be a yogi.

 

6.47 - And of all yogis, the one with great faith who always abides

in Me, thinks of Me within himself and renders transcendental loving

service (shraddhavan Bhajate yo maam) - he is the most intimately

united with Me in yoga and is the highest of All. That is My opinion.

 

4)Is Adi Sankaracharya credited with composing Jagannatha Ashtakam?

 

I have greatest regard for Bhagavatpada Adi Sankaracharya and these

questions are not meant to downplay anyone. It is only meant for one

ignorant person to know the viewpoint of Sankaracharya ( i request

the respondents to strictly stick to Sankaracharya's statements and

enlighten me).

 

Thanking you,

 

K.N.Sriram

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

Hello Sriramji, You have interesting questions. Your questions 1

and 2 are both about the ultimate status of jiva vis-a-vis

brahman. Your question 3 is about jnana and bhakti, in the

context of advaita. Your question 4 is on the authorship of

Jagannathashtakam. I don't know the answer to this last

question. I shall take up your questions 1 and 2 after I have

seen some references. In the meantime probably others will

answer your questions.

Now for your question 3 on bhakti and jnana. You write:

>I have often heard that Advaitins consider Bhakti as a lower

>rung of the ladder to Jnana in the path of self realization.

>Is this true? If so, is it not contrary to the statement of

>Bhagavad Gita 6.46 and 6.47 .

 

In the ultimate stage there is no difference between jnana and

bhakti. This is rather a subtle feature of advaita often not

well understood by seekers. I have dwelt on this in my post

#1604 (21st June 1999). Kindly have a look. How does an advaitin

behave in terms of bhakti? was a question raised at that time. I

have dwelt with the topic in my post #2342 on 4th October 1999.

 

Later, this year PBV Rajanji raised a similar question about

bahkti in the context of advaita. In answer to that I posted a

speech by the Paramacharya of Kanchi on 'Why Bhakti?' in my post

No.13368 on 9th May 2002. You may also refer to posts Nos.13369

and 13371 in this connection.

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Sriram.N.Kizhakkemadam" <snk110> wrote:

> 4)Is Adi Sankaracharya credited with composing Jagannatha Ashtakam?

 

Namaste,

 

Jagannatha Ashtakam is included in the 10-vol. Complete Works

of Shankaracharya [samata Books - Vol.1, p.376].

 

(kadaachitkaalindiitaTavipinasa~Ngiitakavaro . ....)

 

There is also a reference elsewhere to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

singing this at Puri, but no mention of whether this was his own

composition or not.

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

Sriramji writes:

I remember reading somewhere in the Brahma Sutra Bhashya of

Bhagavatpada Adi Sankaracharya that eventually when the Jiva

attains liberation, the Jiva becomes same as Brahman except that

the power of creation is not given to Jiva. Is my understanding

correct?

------------------

 

No; this is only partially correct. When the jiva attains

brahmaloka by means of an intense worship of saguna brahman,

that is, worship through symbols and images, the final status of

the jiva would be, the attainment of a god-like living in

brahmaloka but without the power to create, which is the unique

power of God.

But when the jiva attains brahma-tvam (the status of brahman

itself) by means of the upasana of brahman without attributes

-technically called nirguna-upasana – then there is no

difference between jiva and brahman and there is no duality; in

this context there is no sense in talking about having or not

having the power to create, because the question does not arise.

There is only brahman and nothing else.

 

In both cases the jiva does not come back to be reborn. The very

last section of Brahma sutra in its last chapter deals with this

elaborately. What I have stated above is my understanding of the

advaita viewpoint. I am open to correction by the scholars on

this list.

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More

http://faith.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> Namaste

>

> Sriramji writes:

> I remember reading somewhere in the Brahma Sutra Bhashya >

> In both cases the jiva does not come back to be reborn. The very

> last section of Brahma sutra in its last chapter deals with this

> elaborately. What I have stated above is my understanding of the

> advaita viewpoint. I am open to correction by the scholars on

> this list.

>

 

Pranaam ProfVK,

 

Thanks for the excellent explanation. Just for my personal knowledge,

which part of the Bhashya is point raised by Sri Sriramji in his

query. And where excatly is the part on which you have based your

response?

 

This is such a subtle matter....first needs to be studied deeply and

then contemplate.

 

Regards,

 

Kamal

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna

Om Gurave Namah

 

Dear members

I would like to thank Shri Krishnamurthy for the explanations and

Shri Sunder for giving information on the authorship of Jagannatha

ashtakam. I went through the pointers given to previoous posts and I

appreciate your viewpoint although I am still confused about the

equality of Brahman and jiva finally.

Shri Kamal Kothari had requested for the source of my observation on

the Brahma Sutra. I read it one of the last few pages of Swamy

Gambhirananda's translation. I will contact him personally after

going through the book once more to find the reference.

 

Thanks

K.N.Sriram

 

 

advaitin, "Kamal Kothari" <kamal_kothari_india>

wrote:

> advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> > Namaste

> >

> > Sriramji writes:

> > I remember reading somewhere in the Brahma Sutra Bhashya >

>

> > In both cases the jiva does not come back to be reborn. The very

> > last section of Brahma sutra in its last chapter deals with this

> > elaborately. What I have stated above is my understanding of the

> > advaita viewpoint. I am open to correction by the scholars on

> > this list.

> >

>

> Pranaam ProfVK,

>

> Thanks for the excellent explanation. Just for my personal

knowledge,

> which part of the Bhashya is point raised by Sri Sriramji in his

> query. And where excatly is the part on which you have based your

> response?

>

> This is such a subtle matter....first needs to be studied deeply

and

> then contemplate.

>

> Regards,

>

> Kamal

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Sriram.N.Kizhakkemadam" <snk110> wrote:

> Hare Rama Krishna

> Om Gurave Namah

the source of my observation on

> the Brahma Sutra. I read it one of the last few pages of Swamy

> Gambhirananda's translation. I will contact him personally after

> going through the book once more to find the reference.

>

> Thanks

> K.N.Sriram

 

Namaste,

 

The sources are probably:

 

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_2/bs_2-4-09.html (#20)

 

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_3/bs_3-2-01.html (#5)

 

[swami Gambhirananda, President of Ramakrishna Math at Belur, passed

away in Dec. 1988].

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

Kamalji writes: ( #15023; 17th Oct)

 

Just for my personal knowledge, which part of the Bhashya is

point raised by Sri Sriramji in his -query. And where excatly is

the part on which you have based your response?

--------------------------

In replying to Kamalji, I cannot but quote some of the sutras

from Brahma Sutra: ‘B.S.’ for short) verbatim and their

translations by Swami Krishnanananda in concordance with

Sankara’s commentary.

 

No.1. B.S. IV – 4 – 4. avibhAgena dR^iShTatvAt. This is the

sutra which says categorically that there is no difference

between the Released One and Brahman. The authority is the

scores of vedic statements like: I am brahman; Thou art That;

Where one doesn’t see another, doesn’t hear another, doesn’t

cognize another, that is Infinite; Where one sees another, one

hears another, one cognizes another, that is Finite.

 

No.2. B.S. IV – 4 – 17. Jagad-vyapara-varjam

prakaranad-asannihitattvac-cha

(The liberated soul attains all lordly powers) except the power

of creation, etc., on account of (the Lord being) the subject

matter (of all texts where creation, etc., are referred to) and

(the liberated souls) not being mentioned (in that connection).

Here the context is of those souls who reach the brahma-loka

through worship of saguna-brahman. These are the souls said to

have obtained sAyujya-mukti, that is, the free state of

unbroken contact of the individual being in all its parts with

the Divine. They have still their individual minds. Sankara’s

actual words are: ye saguNa-brahmopAsanAt-sahaiva manasA

Ishvara-sAyujyaM vrajanti teshAM ....

This Sutra says that such liberated souls attain all lordly

powers such as Anima, rendering oneself to atomic size, etc.,

except the power of creation, etc. Creation, preservation and

destruction, on the other hand can belong to the everlastingly

perfect Lord only. Why so? Because the Lord is the subject

matter of all the texts dealing with creation, etc., while the

released souls are not mentioned at all in this connection.

Further, this would lead to many Isvaras. If they have

the power of creation of the universe they may not be of one

mind. There may be conflict of wills with respect to creation,

etc. One may desire to create, and another to destroy. Such

conflicts can only be avoided by assuming that the wishes of one

should conform to those of another and from this it follows that

all other souls depend on the Highest Lord.

Hence the powers of these released souls are not

absolute but limited and are dependent on the will of the Lord.

 

No.3. B.S. IV.4.22 anAvrittih sabdAd-anAvrittih sabdAt

(There is) no return (for these liberated souls), on account of

the scriptural statement (to that effect).

The objector maintains: If the powers of the liberated

souls are limited, then they too will come to an end like all

limited mortal beings. Therefore, the liberated souls will have

to return to this world from Brahmaloka.

This Sutra refutes this and says that those who go to

Brahmaloka by the path of the gods do not return from there.

Because scriptural passages teach that they do not so return.

"Going up by that way, one reaches immortality" (Chh. Up.

VIII.6.6). "Those who proceed on that path do not return to the

life of man" (Chh. Up. IV.15.6). "He reaches the world of

Brahman and does not return" (Chh. Up. VII.15.1). "They no more

return to this world" (Bri. Up. VI.2.15).

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> In replying to Kamalji, I cannot but quote some of the sutras

> from Brahma Sutra: `B.S.' for short) verbatim and their

> translations by Swami Krishnanananda in concordance with

> Sankara's commentary.

 

 

Pranaam ProfVK,

 

Many thanks for your detailed response. I have some queries but

before that I shall go through your post in detail and also refer to

the notes in Files section.

 

Regards,

 

kamal

[Guest guest]

"Sriram.N.Kizhakkemadam" <snk110 wrote:

I am still confused about the

equality of Brahman and jiva finally.

 

K.N.Sriram

 

___

 

Most naturally, all Jivas as mumukshus,cannot but be confused in their

understanding of equality of Brahman and jiva!

 

Let us do vichaara on Shri Shankara's teachings in his "Laghu Vakyavritti"

 

The Great Acaharya states:

 

"Dehaatmadheevat Brahmaathmadhee daardhye Krita krityayaa,Yadaaa tadaayam

mriyataam muktosou naatrasamshayahaa"

 

Every jivatma naturally connects itself with the body and ( getting confused )

thinks with conviction,"I am this body".In this state of mis-understanding, how

can that jiva ever become enlightened?

 

So the Acharya indicates above that, when, with the same conviction, the jiva

fixes itself in the understanding that the 'Atma'within itself is Brahman,it

instantly gets enlightened and is liberated.(Aatmanaa Aatmaanam Pashyati).

Then,all the rest that the jiva does is taken care of and is explained away as

praarabdha !

 

Hari Om!

 

Swaminarayan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste

> The Great Acaharya states:

>

> "Dehaatmadheevat Brahmaathmadhee daardhye Krita krityayaa,Yadaaa

tadaayam mriyataam muktosou naatrasamshayahaa"

>

> Every jivatma naturally connects itself with the body and (

getting confused ) thinks with conviction,"I am this body".In this

state of mis-understanding, how can that jiva ever become

enlightened?

>

> So the Acharya indicates above that, when, with the same

>conviction, the jiva fixes itself in the understanding that

>the 'Atma'within itself is Brahman,it instantly gets enlightened

>and is liberated.(Aatmanaa Aatmaanam Pashyati). ]

 

Sadhaka or Mumukshu's State (A): I am this Body

Jivanmukta's State (B): I am not this Body. I am Pure awareness and

Bliss.

 

Everybody knows State A because it their very day to day experience.

Only through the Scriptures we know about State B. But the knowledge

is only in-direct and we don't yet 'own' this knowledge in its

entierity.

 

The journey of a Sadhaka from State A to State B is the Sadhana and

what a number of newcomers are asking the egroup to do is to lay

out the road map of how a typical Sadhaka goes from State A to

State B. Basically provide more visibility to the Sadhana aspect.

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

Respected Shri Sunder Rajanji: Thank you. You have correctly defined what the

new comers (novices) who have spiritual progress on their minds are asking. I am

happy that we have indeed started getting help now from some recent postings.

Regards

Shanti

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Shanti" <shanti@f...> wrote:

>

I am happy that we have indeed started getting help now from some

recent postings.

 

Namaste,

 

Some upanishad illustrations on sadhana:

 

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/vedic_experience/Part4/VEPartIVC

hA.html

 

That the decay of the body is one of the main reasons for total

disillusionment is shown in the beautiful story of Indra and

Prajapati, from which we quote only the pertinent passage. Prajapati

declares that the only thing worthy to be sought is the unaging,

deathless atman.51

The devas and the asuras, both desiring to receive instruction about

the atman, send their representative to learn from Prajapati. Indra

among the devas and Virocana among the asuras approach the Father of

beings in the humble manner of disciples in search of truth. They are

requested to live thirty-two years of apprenticeship with their

master, who thereby tests the sincerity and constancy of their

search. He then imparts to them his first instruction, telling them

that the atman is nothing else but the person, our self as we see it

in another's eyes or as we perceive it if we look into a pan of water

as if into a mirror. Virocana is satisfied with this theory and he

goes away to inform the asuras that the bodily self, and it alone,

needs to be made happy.52

Not so Indra. On his way back to the Gods he is overcome by doubts

as to whether the body that can be affected by injury and decay can

conceivably be the permanent atman. He returns to Prajapati and

humbly dwells with him for another thirty-two years, after which

Prajapati imparts to him the next instruction, in which the atman is

identified with the soul in the dream state. Twice more Indra returns

to his master, each time discovering defects in these various

theories regarding the atman. Only when he is thus prepared for the

highest teaching does Prajapati declare that the body is not the

atman, because the body is mortal whereas the atman is immortal.53

Disillusionment had led Indra to the ultimate truth. The desire for

the unaging state, free from decay, is nothing other than the search

for the atman, the unaging and deathless in Man.54

 

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First Question

Sukesha Bharadvaja, Shaibya Satyakama, Sauryayani Gargya,

Kaushalya Ashvalayana, Bhargava Vaidarbhi,

and Kabandhi Katyayana were devoted to God,

intent on God, in search of the highest God.

Thinking, "He can tell us all,"

bringing fuel they approached the revered Pippalada.

 

The seer said to them, "Live with me one more year

in discipline, holiness, and faith.

Then ask what you want.

If I know, I will tell you all."

 

 

 

Regards,