From Gita Satsangh IX -9 to Five Tenets of Practical Advaita

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

We start from Chapter 9, Sloka 9.

This sloka is a key sloka for the understanding and practice of

advaita. Members on this list are discussing under a different

thread the different ways in which we can put advaita into

practice. Here is a sloka from the mouth of Krishna Himself on

the subject. Of course the sloka talks about Himself. He says

that none of those actions, like the release of the Universe and

of all Matter from out of Himself at the beginning of the kalpa,

as well as the taking back all of them at the end of the kalpa,

which He keeps on doing recurrently, bind Him in any way. In

short, the sloka says exactly, “Those actions, however, do not

bind Me, O Arjuna, - Me, who is never attached to those actions,

(Myself) sitting indifferent, as it were’.

 

Why did I say that this is a key sloka for OUR practice of

advaita? It is Krishna’s practice that He is talking about

here. But that is what makes Him a Master Teacher. He tells you

His practice so that you can practise what he preaches. He is

telling us that we should practise the same way.

‘udAsInavad-AsInaM’ that is, sitting indifferently, AS IT WERE,

should be the motto, in our worldly actions.

 

This allows us to have an opportunity of looking at what I call

‘The five tenets of Practical Advaita’. Each of these is spoken

of at several contexts of the gita by the Lord. And the Lord

talks about Himself and in so speaking He shows us by His words

how He is Himself practising it. Below I shall try to take these

tenets one by one and show How the Lord, in preaching these

throughout the Gita, relates Himself to them, by quoting at

least one expression of His from the Gita

 

No.1. Right here in 9 – 9, Krishna tells us that none of his

actions will touch him. ‘na tu mAm tAni karmANi ...’.(see

translation above). ‘tasya kartAram api mAm

viddhyakartAram-avyayaM’ (4 – 13) Know Me as the doer of that as

well as the non-doer of it. ‘sharIrasthopi kaunteya na karoti

na lipyate’ (13 – 31) Even though He is resident in the body, He

is not doing nor is he experiencing.

This is the ‘nAhaM kartA’ (I am not the doer) – attitude. This

is recommended to us in several places, some of which are picked

out below:

 

(3 – 17) ‘tasya kAryaM na vidyate’: There is nothing to be done

by him (such a person).

(3 – 27) ‘ahaMkAra-vimUDhAtmA kartAhamiti manyate’ : He whose

mind is deluded by egoism thinks ‘I am the doer’.

(4 – 20) ‘karmaNy-abhipravR^itto’pi naiva kimcit karoti saH’:

Even though he is engaged in action he is not doing anything.

(4 –22) ‘kR^itvApi na nibadhyate’ : having done, even then, he

is not bound.

(5 – 8) ‘naiva kimcit karomIti’:That I am not doing anything.

(14–19) ‘nAnyaM guNebhyaH kartAraM yadA draShTA-nupashyati’

When the seer beholds no doer other than the guNas’.

(18-17) ‘yasya nAhamkR^ito bhAvo buddhir-yasya na lipyate

hatvApi sa imAn lokAn na hanti na nibadhyate’ :

He who has the ‘I am not the doer’-attitude, whose

intelligence is not tainted , though he slays these people he

slays not nor is he bound (by any action).

 

No.2. The ‘nAhaM bhoktA’ (I am not the experiencer) – attitude.

The Lord hints of this attitude of His in ‘na me karmaphale

spr^ihA’ (4 – 14) there is no desire of mine for the fruits of

actions. In 4 – 14 also, ‘na mAM karmANi limpanti’ – Actions do

not contaminate Me, says He. ‘sharIrasthopi kaunteya na karoti

na lipyate’ (13 – 31) Even though He is resident in the body, He

is not doing nor is he experiencing. ‘sarvatrAvasthito dehe

tathAtmA nopalipyate’ (13 – 32) The self-seated everywhere in

the body is not tainted.

The following are some of the places where it is enjoined on us.

 

(3 -19) ‘asakto hyAcaran karma param-Apnoti pUruruShaH’ :For, by

performing action without attachment man reaches the supreme.

(4 – 21) ‘kurvan-nApnoti kilbishaM’: Doing (so) he experiences

no fault.

(4 -41) yoga-sannyasta-karmANaM jnAna-samcinna-saMshayaM

Atmavantam na karmANi nibadhnanti dhananjaya’ :

Him who has renounced actions by yoga, whose doubts are rent

asunder by knowledge and who is self-possessed – him the actions

do not bind, O Arjuna.

(5 – 7) ‘kurvannapi na lipyate’: Even by doing he is not

contaminated.

(5 – 10) ‘lipyate na sa pApena padma-patram ivAmbhasA’: He is

not touched by sin, just as the lotus leaf is untouched by

water.

(5 -12) ‘yuktaH karmaphalaM tyaktvA’: having abandoned the

fruit of action.

(18-11) ‘yastu karma-phala-tyAgI’ : he who relinquishes the

rewards of acions.

 

No.3. The nAhaM dehaH (I am not this body)- attitude. All the

troubles for the soul are because of its identification with the

body. The Lord has no such identification. He says it umpteen

times by trumpeting monumental statements for which the Gita is

famous. In this ninth chapter itself we are going to have four

important slokas (9 – 16, 17, 18, 19) of the kind. Elsewhere

also the gita is full of them. ‘mattaH parataraM nAsti’ (7 – 7)

There is nothing whatsoever higher than Me. ‘aham Adir-hi

devAnAM maharShINAM ca sarvashaH’(10 -2) For in every way I am

the source of all the Gods and the sages. ‘yasmAt

kSharam-atItohaM akSharAd-api cottamaH, atosmi loke vede ca

kathitaH puruShottamaH’ (15 -18) As I transcend the perishable

and am even higher than the imperishable, I am declared as the

highest purusha in the world and the veda. He even shows it

physically to the inner vision of Arjuna: (10 – 5 to 8). Pashya

me pArtha rUpANi .... mama dehe ... divyam dadAmi te cakShuH

.... . See all this in my own body, with the divine eye I have

given you now.

 

In His teaching to us, right in the beginning of the 2nd chapter

Krishna begins to wean us away from this body-mind-intellect

which seems to possess us instead of our possessing them. And in

the very last words spoken by Him, he brings the parting message

and incorporates this idea of “eradication of ‘I am this body”

– attitude” in the carama sloka of the gita, namely (18-66):

sarva-dharmAn parityajya. This pleads for our renunciation of

all the dharmas that accrue as a consequence of ‘I am this

body’-attitude. He makes this as the climax teaching of the

gIta.

 

No.4. The attitude of equanimous view (sama-buddhi). The Lord

mentions this attitude of His in 9 – 29. ‘samohaM

sarva-bhUteShu’: The same am I to all beings.

The following are some of the places where it is declared as a

must for spiritual seekers:

 

(5 -18) vidyA vinaya sampanne brAhmaNe gavi hastini;

shuni caiva shvapAke ca paNDitAH sama-darshinaH :

Sages view with the same light a brahmin endowed with learning

and humility, a cow, an elephant, and even a dog and a

dog-eater.

(11-55) nirvairaH sarvabhUteShu : he who bears enmity towards no

creature.

(12-18) samaH shatrau ca mitre ca : He who is the same to foe

and friend.

(13-27) samaM sarveShu bhUteShu tiShTantaM parameshvaraM

vinashyatsv-avinashyantaM yaH pashyati sa pashyati :

He sees, who sees the supreme Lord existing equally in all

beings, the unperishing within the perishing.

(13-28) samaM pashyan hi sarvatra samavasthitam-IshvaraM : He is

seeing the same Lord equally dwelling everywhere.

(14-24) sama-loShTAshma-kAncanaH : he to whom a clod of earth ,

stone and gold are alike

(14-25) tulyo mitrAri-pakshayoH : the same to friend and foe.

(18-20) sarva-bhUteShu yenaikaM bhAvam-avyayam-IkShate

avibhaktam vibhakteShu taj-jnAnaM viddhi sAtvikaM :

That by which one sees the one indestructible reality in all

beings, not separate in all the separate beings, know thou that

knowledge to be sAtvika.

 

 

No.5 Efficiency in action (karmasu kaushalaM) (2 – 50). Just

because one is not the doer, nor the experiencer, it does not

mean action can be messed up nor can it be avoided. ‘na me

pArtha asti kartavyaM’ (3-22) – I have nothing yet to

accomplish, says the Lord. There is nothing in the three

worlds, that should be done by Me, nor is there anything

unattained that should be attained. Still I engage in action. If

I do not engage myself in action, unwearied, men would in every

way follow my path (3-23). Showing Himself as the model He urges

humanity to action, the right action.

 

(3-20) karmaNaiva hi samsiddhiM AsthitA janakAdayaH

loka-samgraham-evApi sampashyan kartum-arhasi :

Verily, Janaka and others attained perfection only by action.

Even with a view to the welfare of the world thou should perform

action.

Not only that. The action has to be efficient. For,

(3-25) saktAh karmaNy-avidvAmso yathA kurvanti bhArata

kuryAdvidvAms-tathA-saktas-cikIrShur-loka-sangrahaM :

As the ignorant men act out of attachment to action, so should

the wise act without attachment, wishing the welfare of the

world.

 

Thus the five tenets of Practical advaita are:

1. ‘I am not the doer’-attitude.

2. ‘I am not the experiencer’-attitude.

3. ‘I am not this body’-attitude.

4. Attitude of equanimous view.

5. Efficiency in Action.

The first four are attitudes. The last is action, even though it

be in the mAyic world! The first three release you from

bondage. The fourth is the brAhmI stithi. The fifth is for

living in this world. Together they constitute advaita in

practice.

 

praNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

 

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site

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[Guest guest]

Namaste

>

> Thus the five tenets of Practical advaita are:

> 1. `I am not the doer'-attitude.

> 2. `I am not the experiencer'-attitude.

> 3. `I am not this body'-attitude.

> 4. Attitude of equanimous view.

> 5. Efficiency in Action.

> The first four are attitudes.

>

With all due respect to ProfVK I do not see how these five tenets

(especially the first four) can be termed Practical Advaita. Maybe I

am mistaken but 'Practical' implies to me something you practice,

something you do.

 

For example, taking the first tenet "`I am not the

doer'-attitude",

does Sri ProfVK imply "Cultivate the attitude I am not the doer"?.

If that is the case I still don't see how a Sadhaka gets to that

state or attitude. I don't see a practical step-by-step Sadhana a

Sadhaka can implement to reach that State of mind wherein he clearly

KNOWS and clearly SEES I am NOT the doer.

 

Also it raises this question: If I am not the doer, then who is the

doer?

 

My understanding (correct me if I am wrong) is this:

"I am not the doer" is not an attitude you cultivate or develop but

rather it is the natural, clear awareness that arises in a mind

purified by Karma Yoga. So it is not an attitude that one

can 'practice' but rather it is the result of the practice of Karma

Yoga (as explained in Gita Ch 9 Sloka 27 - see below for details).

 

Just like Vairagya is not something you practice but is the natural

consequence of true Viveka.

 

That is why the scriptures (I believe) do not advocate us to

cultivate the habit "I am not the doer". Rather the scriptures tell

us to develop "Ishwara Arpana" bhavana (attitude of dedicating

actions to Ishwara). That is perform actions with the attitude "I am

doing this action for Ishwara".

 

By repeatedly performing actions with the Ishwara Arpana Bhavana

(otherwise called Karma Yoga - Ch 9.27) for a long period of time,

Chitta suddhi (purification of mind) occurs and in the purified mind

dawns the realization that all actions in reality are performed by

the body and the organs in accordance with Nature (Gita Ch5 Slokas 8-

9).

 

My understanding may be incorrect and open for discussions.

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

 

 

Ch.9 ? 27:

yat-karoShi yad-ashnAsi yaj-juhoShi dadAsi yat /

yat-tapasyasi kaunteya tat-kuruShva mad-arpaNaM //

Meaning:Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in

sacrifice (ritual or pUjA), whatever you give, whatever you

practise as an austerity-rite, O Arjuna, do it as an offering of

dedication unto Me.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sundar Rajan-Ji.

 

I find common ground between you and Prof. Krishnamurthy-Ji. You both

are saying the right thing. Let us explore.

 

The first three are knowledge. The first three need practice too.

 

Let us take No. 3 - "I am not this body". This is knowledge

(something on our awareness as you rightly say) to all advaitins and

all of us, over 580 in number, on this List possess this knowledge.

But, despite such knowledge, how many of us can resist the temptation

to run for a bottle of paracetamol or aspirin tablets at the

slightest sign of a headache?

 

Take my case for instance. I wax eloquent on advaita. But, when I

see a cockroach on my bed, I jump out impulsively repeat impulsively.

I am scared of even the thought of spending a night in my village

home when there is a power-cut with all those mosquitoes around.

The knowledge that I am not the body and that these insects, like my

body, are also yet other objects in my Consciousness is not

immediately available to me on such occasions. (I am reminded of how

Yogi Ramdas saw Lord Rama in mosquito bites and lost himself an

entire night in a sort of samAdhi experience at a mosquito-infested

place!).

 

Simply stated, my knowledge is still something not fully mine. It is

only academic, something about which I am logically convinced. It

becomes mine only when I am spontaneous, i.e. when I am spontaneously

not the body. What, other than practice, can take me to that state

of spontaneity? I need to do constant advaitic vichAra and try

deliberately to live the truth till I am really not the body, till I

am really spontaneous, till I can hug a horribly-mutilated leper as

Mother Amritanandamayi does most spontaneously.

 

This spontaneity is synonymous with the chittasuddhi you have

referred to and the karma yoga that grants you chittasuddhi is

practice.

 

So, knowing I am not the body, I am not the mind, etc. are knowledge,

as you say, and our journey from that point to spontaneously living

that knowledge is practice, as Prof. Krishnamurthy-Ji says.

 

Having stated this much, I would hasten to add that I am also subject

to correction.

 

In this regard, kindly also refer to a profound and enlightening

discussion that took place on this List between Shri Jaishankar

Narayayan and Shri Atmachainyaji (Posts # 12514 and 12519).

 

Incidentally, I notice you asked the following question:

 

"If I am not the doer, then who is the doer?".

 

I kow that you know the answer. Yet, may I say that this exactly is

what we are discussing currently in BG 9 : 7-10, i.e. Lord Krishna's

statement that He works the universe but He is not in any of the

actions. That again is the point Bhagwan Ramana wanted to drive home

when he sang in the first verse of his Upadesa Saaram: "KarturAjnayA

prApyate phalam, karma kim param, karma tat-jadam" [The result

materialises (all the universe) on the orders of the Lord, but action

cannot have Him, actions are insentient (dead, jada].

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

-- In advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan> wrote:

> With all due respect to ProfVK I do not see how these five tenets

> (especially the first four) can be termed Practical Advaita. Maybe

I

> am mistaken but 'Practical' implies to me something you practice,

> something you do.

[Guest guest]

JAI-BABA

Namaste,

In my opinion the first three tenets tells us the method to get

red from our ego.Attitude is also one kind of mental practice.

with namaskarams

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 Sundar Rajan wrote :

>Namaste

>>

>>Thus the five tenets of Practical advaita are:

>>1.      `I am not the doer'-attitude.

>>2.      `I am not the experiencer'-attitude.

>>3.      `I am not this body'-attitude.

>>4.      Attitude of equanimous view.

>>5.      Efficiency in Action.

>>The first four are attitudes.

>>

>With all due respect to ProfVK I do not see how these five

>tenets

>(especially the first four) can be termed Practical Advaita.

>Maybe I

>am mistaken but 'Practical' implies to me something you

>practice,

>something you do.

>For example, taking the first tenet "`I am not the

>doer'-attitude",

>does Sri ProfVK imply "Cultivate the attitude I am not the

>doer"?.

>If that is the case I still don't see how a Sadhaka gets to

>that

>state or attitude. I don't see a practical step-by-step Sadhana

>a

>Sadhaka can implement to reach that State of mind wherein he

>clearly

>KNOWS and clearly SEES I am NOT the doer.

>Also it raises this question: If I am not the doer, then who is

>the

>doer?

>My understanding (correct me if I am wrong) is this:

>"I am not the doer" is not an attitude you cultivate or develop

>but

>rather it is the natural, clear awareness that arises in a mind

>purified by Karma Yoga. So it is not an attitude that one

>can 'practice' but rather it is the result of the practice of

>Karma

>Yoga (as explained in Gita Ch 9 Sloka 27 - see below for

>details).

>Just like Vairagya is not something you practice but is the

>natural

>consequence of true Viveka.

>That is why the scriptures (I believe) do not advocate us to

>cultivate the habit "I am not the doer". Rather the scriptures 

>tell

>us to develop "Ishwara Arpana" bhavana (attitude of dedicating

>actions to Ishwara). That is perform actions with the attitude "I

>am

>doing this action for Ishwara".

>By repeatedly performing actions with the Ishwara Arpana

>Bhavana

>(otherwise called Karma Yoga - Ch 9.27) for a long period of

>time,

>Chitta suddhi (purification of mind) occurs and in the purified

>mind

>dawns the realization that all actions in reality are performed

>by

>the body and the organs in accordance with Nature (Gita Ch5

>Slokas 8-

>9).

>My understanding may be incorrect and open for discussions.

>regards

>Sundar Rajan

>Ch.9 ? 27:

>yat-karoShi yad-ashnAsi yaj-juhoShi dadAsi yat /

>yat-tapasyasi kaunteya tat-kuruShva mad-arpaNaM //

>Meaning:Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer

>in

>sacrifice (ritual or pUjA), whatever you give, whatever you

>practise as an austerity-rite, O Arjuna, do it as an offering

>of

>dedication unto Me.

> Sponsor

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

>nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at:

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[Guest guest]

My dear noble devotee of Sri Sankara

Bhagavatpujyapada,

 

Take my case for instance. I wax eloquent on advaita.

But, when I

see a cockroach on my bed, I jump out impulsively

repeat impulsively.

I am scared of even the thought of spending a night in

my village

home when there is a power-cut with all those

mosquitoes around

 

That is why I was humbly requesting you to trace the

thought to its origin in my previous mails.Unless you

destroy the vasana - here it is the deha vasana either

by vichara followed by abhyasa of taking the thought

to its source or by sheer force like a lion wriggling

out of a cage you will never get out of these

vasanas.I told you about my experience of falling off

the great stallion Astari and my Witnessing experience

and also about the subsequent resurrection of pain

once in a way about some other things.Right now, I am

witnessing a devastating phenomenon of mamakara and

helplessness but I am not feeling it.But there is no

guarantee that it will not affect me unless my guna

has become sudhdha sattva.For that I am practising by

tracing the thought back to its origin. To be happy ,

one must ,first know WHY a thought comes and WHERE

from it comes so that he can then find a cure by the

sadhana you are talking about. It is not enough to

know Aham Brahmasmi which is like knowing about

swimming but not having the experience of swimming.

 

Experience comes by tracing the thought to its

source.As you are very well versed in Ramana

Maharshi,please see how he tackled the problem of

finding the first and second ahams.

 

May Sri Lalithamba drown you antharmukhamly into the

sweetness and light of Bliss!

 

Yours in Sri Sankara Bhagavatpujyapada,

 

Chilukuri Bhuvaneswar

 

 

 

--- Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair

wrote:

<HR>

<html><body>

 

 

<tt>

Namaste Sundar Rajan-Ji.<BR>

<BR>

I find common ground between you and Prof.

Krishnamurthy-Ji. You both <BR>

are saying the right thing.  Let us explore.<BR>

<BR>

The first three are knowledge.  The first three

need practice too.<BR>

<BR>

Let us take No. 3 - "I am not this

body".  This is knowledge <BR>

(something on our awareness as you rightly say) to all

advaitins and <BR>

all of us, over 580 in number, on this List possess

this knowledge.  <BR>

But, despite such knowledge, how many of us can resist

the temptation <BR>

to run for a bottle of paracetamol or aspirin tablets

at the <BR>

slightest sign of a headache?  <BR>

<BR>

Take my case for instance. I wax eloquent on

advaita.  But, when I <BR>

see a cockroach on my bed, I jump out impulsively

repeat impulsively. <BR>

I am scared of even the thought of spending a night in

my village <BR>

home  when there is a power-cut with all those

mosquitoes around.  <BR>

The knowledge that I am not the body and that these

insects, like my <BR>

body, are also yet other objects in my Consciousness

is not <BR>

immediately available to me on such occasions. 

(I am reminded of how <BR>

Yogi Ramdas saw Lord Rama in mosquito bites and lost

himself an <BR>

entire night in a sort of samAdhi experience at a

mosquito-infested <BR>

place!).<BR>

<BR>

Simply stated, my knowledge is still something not

fully mine. It is <BR>

only academic, something about which I am logically

convinced. It <BR>

becomes mine only when I am spontaneous, i.e. when I

am spontaneously <BR>

not the body.  What, other than practice, can

take me to that state <BR>

of spontaneity?  I need to do constant advaitic

vichAra and try <BR>

deliberately to live the truth till I am really not

the body, till I <BR>

am really spontaneous, till I can hug a

horribly-mutilated leper as <BR>

Mother Amritanandamayi does most spontaneously.<BR>

<BR>

This spontaneity is synonymous with the chittasuddhi

you have <BR>

referred to and the karma yoga that grants you

chittasuddhi is <BR>

practice.<BR>

<BR>

So, knowing I am not the body, I am not the mind, etc.

are knowledge, <BR>

as you say, and our journey from that point to

spontaneously living <BR>

that knowledge is practice, as Prof. Krishnamurthy-Ji

says.<BR>

<BR>

Having stated this much, I would hasten to add that I

am also subject <BR>

to correction.<BR>

<BR>

In this regard, kindly also refer to a profound and

enlightening <BR>

discussion that took place on this List between Shri

Jaishankar <BR>

Narayayan  and Shri Atmachainyaji (Posts # 12514

and 12519).<BR>

<BR>

Incidentally, I notice you asked the following

question:<BR>

<BR>

"If I am not the doer, then who is the

doer?".<BR>

<BR>

I kow that you know the answer.  Yet, may I say

that this exactly is <BR>

what we are discussing currently in BG 9 : 7-10, i.e.

Lord Krishna's <BR>

statement that He works the universe but He is not in

any of the <BR>

actions.  That again is the point Bhagwan Ramana

wanted to drive home <BR>

when he sang in the first verse of his Upadesa Saaram:

"KarturAjnayA <BR>

prApyate phalam, karma kim param, karma

tat-jadam"  [The result <BR>

materialises (all the universe) on the orders of the

Lord, but action <BR>

cannot have Him, actions are insentient (dead, jada].

<BR>

<BR>

Pranams.<BR>

<BR>

Madathil Nair<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

-- In advaitin, "Sundar Rajan"

<avsundarrajan> wrote:<BR>

<BR>

> With all due respect to ProfVK I do not see how

these five tenets <BR>

> (especially the first four) can be termed

Practical Advaita. Maybe <BR>

I <BR>

> am mistaken but 'Practical' implies to me

something you practice, <BR>

> something you do.<BR>

<BR>

<BR>

</tt>

 

<br>

 

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Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. <BR>

Advaitin List Archives available at: <a

href="http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/">of Service</a>.</tt>

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______________________

Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV.

visit http://in.tv.''>http://in.tv.'>http://in.tv.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Sundar:

 

The questions, you have raised regarding 'practice' has been

beautifully answered by the Lord in Gita Satsangh currently under

discussion. The messages are quite subtle and the five tenets

proposed by ProfVK are also quite subtle. We do witness the Ishwara

sristi (God's creation) and Jiva sristi (Human creation) which happen

cyclically without a beginning or end. The Lord creates as though He

is the non-doer because He detaches Himself and become a 'Witness.'

He is just like the projector in the theater who projects the

episodes that we see on the screen but projector is not a part of the

episodes. When we are left with no one to support our actions, we do

bring God as a witness. Those who appear in the court are asked to

take an oath (especially witnesses) with God as the Witness

(symbolically God is represented by Gita, Bible or scriptural texts).

 

The subtle message of the verses currently under discussion: The Lord

creates the mAyA with complete detachment from doer-ship and

consequently unaffected by the effects of mAyA. He doesn't

experience the mAyA, He is not mAyA, His complete detachment implies

equanimity. He is Pure Consciousness and the question of body or mind

doesn't arise. In contrast, we do create mAyA - likes and dislikes,

experience of joy and sorrow, body pain, perturbed mind, etc., etc.

The Lord through the Gita verses ask us to imitate Him while

practicing our living! At paramarthika level of reality, nothing

happens, and we are superimposed with Him and the question of

attitude or Vedanta or any discussion does not arise. However, we

haven't reached that stage and we are dwelling in this universe of

Samsara Sahara (vyavahara level of relative idenity) and identifying

ourselves separate from Him. The five tenets of Gita postulated from

the Advaita Vedanta philosophical point of view by ProfVK

conceptualizes our transformation from Jiva (the separate identity)

to Ishwara (Universal Identity).

 

The discussions so far under Gita Satsangh conceptualizes the

distinctions between Nirguna Brahman (Pure Consciousness), Saguna

Brahman (Ishwara - creator of mAyA) and Jiva (dweller of mAyA). I am

that that you will agree that Pure Consciousness only exists and all

the described notions along with tenets and path are only for

intellectual understanding or misunderstanding. In nature, animals

and plants practice the philosophy spelled out in Gita because they

do not analyze their actions or inaction. Our problem (or virtue) is

the intellect by which we should regain our True wisdom of knowing

our True Divine Nature.

 

The practical Vedanta as spelled out in Gita implicitly requires us

to perform all our actions spontaneously without looking for personal

gains. If we perfect the 'Karma Yoga' as spelled out in verse 47 of

chapter 2, we certainly can become the non-doer, we can detach the

mind, body and intellect from our action and we can achieve supreme

efficiency by focusing our attention only on the action.

Essentially, the Karma Yogi or Stithaprajna (Person of Stable Mind)

has all the attributes spelled in the five tenets of Practical

Advaita by ProfVK.

 

Now the practical advaita can also be explained using the 'Bhakti

Yoga' one of the most popular description is verse 66 of chapter 18:

sarvadharmaanparityajya maamekaM sharaNaM vraja .

ahaM tvaaM sarvapaapebhyo mokshyayishhyaami maa shuchaH

 

The 'Bhakti Yogi' who follows the advice of the Gita will practice

the 'Karma Yoga' but the frame work of reference in appearance looks

different. The Bhakti Yogi is also a non-doer with the implied

attributes stated in the five tenets. All the three Yogas (Karma,

Bhakti and Jnana) are spelled out in Gita and the starting points of

their understanding appear very different. But at the end they

culminate as one - 'Yogi' with no attributes. It should be also

pointed out that these distinctions exist only in appearance to

benefit seekers with different beliefs and background. The practical

advaita essentially require that we free our mind from all beliefs

and live our life with the understanding spelled out by the seers of

the Upanishads - "Life is a bridge, enjoy while crossing, don't

build any castle on it."

 

Regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan> wrote:

> Namaste

> >

> > Thus the five tenets of Practical advaita are:

> > 1. `I am not the doer'-attitude.

> > 2. `I am not the experiencer'-attitude.

> > 3. `I am not this body'-attitude.

> > 4. Attitude of equanimous view.

> > 5. Efficiency in Action.

> > The first four are attitudes.

> >

> With all due respect to ProfVK I do not see how these five tenets

> (especially the first four) can be termed Practical Advaita. Maybe

I

> am mistaken but 'Practical' implies to me something you practice,

> something you do.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Ramchandran

>

> The practical Vedanta as spelled out in Gita implicitly requires

us

> to perform all our actions spontaneously without looking for

personal

> gains. If we perfect the 'Karma Yoga' as spelled out in verse 47

of

> chapter 2, we certainly can become the non-doer..

 

There is a subtle but major problem with your statement. It is

missing an important point.

 

Gita not only requires us to perform all our actions without looking

for personal gains (as you have correctly stated) BUT also to

perform those actions with a spirit of dedication to Ishwara.

 

"A person should dedicate their actions and their fruits to God AND

discharge their duties without hankering for the results." This is

the definition of Karma Yoga.

 

See below for more details:

advaitin/message/9333

 

 

In fact Sri Sankara explains this in His commentary for Verse 2.48:

Quote

If action is not to be undertaken by one who is under the impulsion

of the fruits of action, how then are they to be undertaken? This is

being stated: Yogasthah, by becoming established in Yoga; O

Dhanajaya, kuru, undertake; karmani, actions, for the sake of God

alone; even there, tyaktva, casting off; sangam, attachment, in the

form, 'God will be pleased with me.' ['Undertake work for pleasing

God, but not for propitiating Him to become favourable towards

yourself.']

End Quote

>>

The five tenets of Gita postulated from

the Advaita Vedanta philosophical point of view by ProfVK

conceptualizes our transformation from Jiva (the separate identity)

to Ishwara (Universal Identity).

>>

I have no issues with the five tenets proposed although they are an

odd set. My bone of contention is with the use of the

term "Practical".

 

Current State of any Sadhaka (A): I am the Doer

Desired or Final State (B): I am Not the Doer

 

It is not 'practical' to be in the final State(B) even at the start.

The Sadhaka undertakes Sadhana and reaches State (B) from his

current State (A).

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Sundar rajanji’s tall order ‘Show me a road map from the state

of Ignorance (Current State A) to the state of Knowledge (State

B)’ is academically very interesting to pose and discuss, but in

physical reality, the order is difficult to execute. In fact

one purpose of this whole group is to be ceased of this

question. While encountering this question several times in

the past I have tried to put my thoughts into writing a few

times. One such is my web page

 

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/73.html

 

where the subject matter is ‘Vision of equanimity is practical

non-duality’. This may kindly be seen. Sundar Rajanji would

note that I concur with him there when he says that finally it

all ends up in dedicating every one of our actions to the Lord.

 

In addition to this, the Post #591 on Practical advaita,

Nov.29, 1998 should also be seen. Though it is only a

collection of random thoughts on the subject it develops the

theme how Gita VI-30 proves to be a commandment from the Lord on

how a spiritual seeker should strive for an advaitic vision and

what steps he has to take starting from the bottom rung of the

spiritual ladder.

 

Also see Post #12938, Apr.1, 2002, How to practise

non-attachment to work.

The question itself was posed to the Vivekananda Center, London

and this post was one of the answers to that question. In that

post I have started from scratch and have outlined what I would

now call a ‘road map’ in Sundar Rajanji’s fashion. Again I am

sure he would be happy to find that it ends up by saying that it

all leads up to a faith in a Guru or God eventually.

 

The following recent posts

Post #14859 Oct.3, 2002, Hurdles of Sin. And

Post #14863 ,Oct 3 2002, on Practical methods for the spiritual

ascent.

May also be seen. In this latter post three slokas from the

gita have been highlighted for this purpose, the last one of

them being the exact sloka which Sundarrajanji (Post #15089)

also relies on, namely IX-27.

 

There arfe one or two other posts of mine on this subject, but I

have not yet locatged them.

 

Incidentally, my thanks and appreciation to Nairji’s post #15091

and to Ram Chandranji’s post #15095 for the necessary

clarifications.

 

The question of Sundar Rajanji on ‘Then Who is the doer?’ is a

major question. This needs a separate post. But follow the gita

satsangh; it will come in due course. It has already come once

in the III chapter but it will come again more deeply in the

13th and 18th chapters.

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now

http://hotjobs./

[Guest guest]

I agree with Madathil-ji's comments but would like to address another of Sri

Sundar Rajan's statements. He said:

 

'For example, taking the first tenet "`I am not the doer'-attitude", does

Sri ProfVK imply "Cultivate the attitude I am not the doer"?. If that is

the case I still don't see how a Sadhaka gets to that state or attitude. I

don't see a practical step-by-step Sadhana a Sadhaka can implement to reach

that State of mind wherein he clearly KNOWS and clearly SEES I am NOT the

doer.'

 

I don't believe this is the case. If you simply watch the body 'performing'

an action, such as making a cup of coffee or even simply walking; if you do

this in a completely detached 'witnessing' manner, you can see without any

doubt that 'I am not doing anything'. There is simply no way that one would

even know how to begin 'doing' all of the things necessary for bodily

movement, from initial hormonal triggers in the brain to release of proteins

etc. in the blood and passing of sugars to muscles etc. etc., balancing the

body, co-ordinating movements of spoons and cups - the list is endless. We

can only watch and be amazed. (And all of this is to ignore the thorny

chestnut of the question of 'free will' in 'initiating' the action.)

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri ProfVK.

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> Namaste.

> Sundar rajanji’s tall order ‘Show me a road map

from the state

> of Ignorance (Current State A) to the state of Knowledge (State

> B)’ is academically very interesting to pose and discuss,

but in

> physical reality, the order is difficult to execute.

 

I agree it is a tall order but the question was not from me alone

but an interpretation of the 'mood' of the group as you can see by

the responses from Shri Shanti etc. I have myself grappled with this

issue and wondered how to present it at our local Satsangs etc.

 

Fortunately there are others who have come up with Roadmaps. Several

speeches of Swami Paramarthananda address this very issue.

Interested group members can visit

http://www.yogamalika.org/newweb/yogahome.html and check out his

series on Vedanta or introductions to Uddhava Gita.

 

Coming back to the original post

advaitin/message/15087 that started

all this, I spent some more time reading it and tried to find out

why it bothered me.

 

As we all know, any instructions or teachings in Vedanta are always

based on the qualification of the student. I am assuming the five

tenets in the message are aimed at a spiritual seeker and not at the

Jnani. Ofcourse a Jnani requires no teaching having achieved

whatever needs to be achieved.

 

The reason why it bothered me is the bewildering mixture of

expressions describing a Jnani’s viewpoint, Jnana Lakshana and

Karma

Yoga. All of them are presented as instructions or values or ideals

for spiritual seekers to follow. These instructions are confusing

and cannot possibly work. Please don’t take this personally or

as being offensive. Read the following carefully.

 

Let me give just one example:

>>

No.4. The attitude of equanimous view (sama-buddhi). The Lord

mentions this attitude of His in 9 ? 29. ?samohaM

sarva-bhUteShu?: The same am I to all beings.

The following are some of the places where it is declared as a

must for spiritual seekers:

(5 -18) vidyA vinaya sampanne brAhmaNe gavi hastini;

shuni caiva shvapAke ca paNDitAH sama-darshinaH :

Sages view with the same light a brahmin endowed with learning

and humility, a cow, an elephant, and even a dog and a

dog-eater.

>>

 

I can’t possibly see how this (5-18) can be an instruction for

a spiritual seeker to follow. In this particular verse Lord Krishna

is talking about the absolute, spontaneous sama-buddhi of a Jnani.

There is indeed a sama-buddhi advocated for a Karma Yogi (seeker)

but that sama-buddhi is a relative one (see below for details).

 

How is the Jnani able to have this samathva buddhi or sama-darsanam?

It is given in 5-19 "brahmani te sthithah" â€" only because He is

established in Brahman. But a Karma Yogi or a seeker is not

established in Brahman. So it will be impossible for a seeker to

have the sameness described in 5-18. So the verse 5-18 can never be

a ‘must follow’ instruction for a spiritual seeker.

 

The information I presented above is from a beautiful commentary on

the Gita by Swami Paramarthananda.

 

The Swamiji goes on to say (I have narrated it verbatim from the

audio tape):

============== Narration from Swami Paramarthananda ================

We should remember a Karma Yogi is also asked to follow this

samathva-buddhi. Where? In verse 2-48:

 

Siddhy-asiddhyoh samo bhutva samatvam yoga ucyate

 

But in the case of a Karma Yogi it is only at Practice level. It is

only a relative Samathvam. The absolute samathvam a Karma Yogi can

never have.

 

So you should never get confused between a Karma Yogi and a Jnani. A

Karmayogi doens’t have the knowledge of the samam Brahman but

he only tries to keep his mind balanced. Karma Yoga is only a first

aid. It is only a intermediary stage of Samathvam. It is not a firm

samathvam.

 

Therefore a Karma Yogi cannot be spontaneously

established in Samathvam. He can avoid big shocks in life. The

impact of various shocks in life is vastly reduced because of his

attitude but total spontaneous establishment in Samathvam is

possible only for a Jnani.

 

That is why we say Jnanam cannot be avoided. If a Karma Yogi himself

can be ever established in Samathvam why should the Lord Krishna

prescribe Jnana Yoga?. So Karma Yoga is a temporary method only.

That is why the Lord prescribes Jnana Yoga. Here it is Jnani’s

Samathvam. There (2-48) it is Sadhana. Here it is Siddha. There it

is Sadhaka.

============== Narration from Swami Paramarthananda ends============

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Dennis-Ji's coffee-making was very interesting and illustrative. It

has triggered fresh thoughts in me.

 

Coffee-making covers at least four of Prof. VK's tenets, i.e. the

ones relating to doership, experiencing, body sense and also

efficiency in action, in varying degrees of course. The first three

are closely interlinked and overlapping.

 

When we are spontaneous, the last one is the natural result and in

full swing. Then the other elements totally disappear.

 

How to reach that last is the big question being asked. A specific

programme of action is the tall order placed on Advaitin.

 

When we make coffee or drive a car, we are almost totally unaware of

the fact that we are engaged in those actions. The involvement of

organs of our body, and other external paraphernalia like spoons,

sugar bottle, kettle, gears, clutch, brake etc. is not at all obvious

during those actions unless one is a novice at them. As some of us

have pointed out before on this forum, the sense of doership dawns

only later, i.e. when the action is remembered and analyzed.

 

The body in such cases enters only when it is hurt, like some boiling

water falls on the hand. Then, the "default" body sense emerges and

operates till the pain lasts. But, if this is really analyzed, the

folly in our thinking will be obvious to us.

 

Supposing the wrist is burnt, the pain is on a particular part of

the wrist only. But, "by default", we slide into thinking that "I am

hurt, I am in pain" etc., whereas what just happened is purely the

occurrence of a knowledge of burning. That it is a burning of the

wrist experienced as a burning of "my" body through "my" sense of

touch (suffering) operated by "my" nerves and "my" brain is a later

add in which we can conveniently do away with if we choose to do so.

All pains, discomforts, enjoyments, pleasures etc. are thus only

knowledge. When this becomes a firm conviction, then the "default"

body sense disappears without the need for another "default setting"

in its place. One becomes a mass of Consciousness, yet "performing"

actions as before.

 

Often at prayer and meditation, the legs become numb and

uncomfortable. Your eyes are closed. Objectify the experience and

see it as knowledge per se, Consciousness – "I am the numbness". The

numbness becomes a glow, a thrill, an enjoyment. You will find that

you can then sit longer without shifting your position. Again, in

meditation, the whole body becomes a glow without boundaries. You

have to force your memory then to give shape to your limbs, i.e. when

your eyes are closed, your body sense is just memory superimposed on

isolated tactile points. Here, I am reminded of Klein's practical

teaching, which I read only yesterday at Amigo, where he demonstrates

that our body-sense is mostly a superimposed memory. This is a fact

anyone can conclude by doing simple vichAra.

 

Most of our actions are naturally performed without any sense of body

and doership. Problematic actions are those that involve the ego in

the doership. Like, when I write this post, I want Members to read

it and appreciate it and when I am criticized, I don't like it.

Well, such feelings can be done away with through advaitic analysis.

 

How is my writing of this post made possible? First, Dennis-Ji's

illustration which resulted from the posts of Prof. VK, Sundar Rajan-

Ji and others, then the Grace showered on me from Where I don't know

in the form of my wakefulness and thinking, the facility of language

that is not mine, this PC – somebody's invention and money, the

technology that has gone into it. What is mine then? Where am I in

the picture? Nowhere? So, the only option left for me is – call

and thank Her before, during and after the writing, literally bore

Her with "thank yous". If life becomes such thankfulness, then where

is the doership, Sir. At Her feet, I am only a petal, not a doer.

 

So, basically and fundamentally, vichAra is the cornerstone of

advaita. Keep doing it. The sAdhana for which we are hunting for a

step by step action plan will naturally and spontaneously result,

like the mango's becoming sweet as it ripens. Simply stated, we

cannot do sAdhana on somebody else's vichAra at least till that

somebody's vichAra becomes our own through vichAra!

 

One can write a book about what one is doing and insist that that is

the correct method of sAdhana. Some tips in there may help. Beyond

that, it is all a waste of time. The only alternative is constant

vichAra. Then Grace follows and self-realization becomes an

unavoidable and inevitable reality (Courtesy: To some quote found

yesterday at Amigo).

 

Without vichAra, we can only get hopelessly enmeshed doing things,

which we don't understand at all.

 

A pilgrim to Sabarimala in Kerala has to go up 18 granite steps to

have the Lord's darshan. One fully merged in devotion sees only the

Lord. For him, the steps on the way, which are only incidental, does

not really exist! Similarly, may the brilliance of Consciousness

take possession of us and not leave us on the steps to fret.

 

Pranams.

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

If you simply watch the body 'performing'

> an action, such as making a cup of coffee or even simply walking;

if you do

> this in a completely detached 'witnessing' manner, you can see

without any

> doubt that 'I am not doing anything'. There is simply no way that

one would

> even know how to begin 'doing' all of the things necessary for

bodily

> movement, from initial hormonal triggers in the brain to release of

proteins

> etc. in the blood and passing of sugars to muscles etc. etc.,

balancing the

> body, co-ordinating movements of spoons and cups - the list is

endless. We

> can only watch and be amazed. (And all of this is to ignore the

thorny

> chestnut of the question of 'free will' in 'initiating' the action.)