Guest guest Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Shanti Tony O'Clery, Sat-cit-ananda I find that referring to the texts is a good way to free my self from my own conceptualizations. Relating to Raphael's teaching here is a quotation from the chapter 'Brahman' in At the Source of Life: «««« 50. Brahman is designated as Sat-Cit-Ananda (Being, Consciousness, Bliss). These terms are not its attributes, but the expression of man’s intellective comprehension of it. Sat is pure being, absolute, unqualified and infinite; Cit is intelligence consubstantial with Sat; Ananda is fullness of Sat. The Absolute Being dwells in its bliss-fullness and in its intelligence or self-comprehension. In other terms, Sat comprehends itself as absolute completeness. Being lives in itself, for itself and with itself. Outside of Being there can be neither existence nor non-existence. In its absoluteness and indeterminateness Brahman is not Sat-Cit-Ananda because the Absolute is beyond Being and non-being, beyond the eternal and the contingent, because it is beyond subject and object. Brahman is often indicated as Non-Being as well, because it represents the negation of all attributes, determinations and classifications. The mind can only conceive some things in terms of negative or positive; every empirical concept is always a concept of relation, of rapport, but Brahman is beyond all relation and all rapport. »»»» Shanti, Carlo advaitin wrote: > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > ------ > > There are 6 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. JK's Message - Book Review from 'The HIndu' > "Ram Chandran <rchandran" <rchandran > 2. Re: Reincarnation and Advaita > "svahauk <ombhurbhuva" <ombhurbhuva > 3. Re: Advaita, V'Advaita and Dwaita & Advaitin Satsangh > "Ram Chandran <rchandran" <rchandran > 4. Ramana on this contention, S-C-A. > "Tony O'Clery <aoclery" <aoclery > 5. SIVANANDA DAILY READING FOR 17 JANUARY > "kvashisht <kvashisht" <kvashisht > 6. Re: Digest Number 1580 > "S.V.SWAMY" <swamy > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 1 > Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:54:30 -0000 > "Ram Chandran <rchandran" <rchandran > JK's Message - Book Review from 'The HIndu' > > JK's message > > LIVING AND DYING — From moment to moment: Susunaga Weeraperuma; > Motilal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt. Ltd., 41, UA Bungalow Road, > Jawahar Nagar, Delhi-110007. Rs. 65. > > JIDDU KRISHNAMURTHI, Krishnajee to his devotees and admirers, was a > young student decades ago of the P.S. High School, Mylapore, Chennai, > along with his brother, Nityananda. > > The boys were remarkable in many ways. Dr. Annie Besant, President of > the Theosophical Society, discovered in the youngsters something > unique, fascinating and spiritually stimulating. > > She secured the transfer of their guardianship from their parents and > though the transfer was challenged in the courts of law, she got it > confirmed by the Privy Council of the U.K. She made wonderful use of > the responsibility she had taken on herself. She took young > Krishnajee to Oxford but arranged for his education privately. > > We have little knowledge of the details of this education but it > proved to be a truly transforming process and Dr. Besant proclaimed > Krishnajee as the "Coming world teacher" and established the Order of > the Star in the East. > > In 1922, Krishnajee spoke of a truly nameless experience > unmistakably, non-rational and quite positively mystical. He said, "I > was supremely happy for I had seen. Nothing would be the same again. > I have drunk of the clear and pure waters at the source of the > foundation of life and my thirst was appeased. Never more could I be > thirsty... I have stood at the mountain top and seen the Light". > These were truly Messianic words and the world listened in wonder. > > But in October 1929, he dissolved the Order of the Star in the East. > He declared in August 1929, "Truth is a pathless land and you cannot > approach it by any faith whatever, by any religion or any sect. I do > not want to belong to any organisation." > > This was a shock to his devotees and admirers who numbered thousands > and who belonged nearly to every part of the world. > > India, however, did not commit the awful folly of rejection of the > message because it was truly a liberating one, a saving one. > Krishnajee wants every individual to discover the Truth for oneself, > without feeling committed to acceptance of the revelations of any > religion or sect of any god man, of any Guru. This was a truly > remarkably shocking development. > > The author quotes Krishnajee in chapter three of the book: "To follow > another is evil because it breeds authority, fear and imitativeness". > This quotation heads the chapter entitled "Are spiritual leaders > necessary?". > > The word guru, etymologically means the remover of ignorance, the > Avaduta. The Bhagavatam gives us a whole host of gurus, even a python > and a fruit-bearing tree. > > This approach seems to contradict Krishnajee. It does not. Every man > is a Guru to oneself. Look inward, not superstitiously but with a > clear and pure mind and you will find all the guidance you want. > > This is almost like Gandhi's inner voice — which led him up the steps > of many a magnificent revelation of the spiritual strengths of India, > which blew up the British Empire over India. > > Krishnajee was the subject of thoughtless ridicule, along with Dr. > Besant, a few decades ago. But the way in which sects are formed > today and self-proclaimed godmen conquer and confound the minds of > human beings today makes it necessary for mankind to look rationally > and critically at any formulation of doctrine. The author discusses > various related issues, succinctly, clearly and thoughtfully and the > book is undoubtedly worth reading and digesting. > > S.R. > > © Copyright 2000 - 2002 The Hindu > http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/br/stories/2003011400080300.htm > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 2 > Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:57:35 -0000 > "svahauk <ombhurbhuva" <ombhurbhuva > Re: Reincarnation and Advaita > > advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair>" <madathilnair> wrote: > > Namaste Michael and all. > > > > I went up the thread and found out that my mail 15677 elicited your > > post. > > > > > Hello Madathil and advaitins generally, > I was off on a tangent of my own on the lower slopes of Advaita. My point was the really mundane one that in the case of reincarnation the concept of evidence is not the same as in scientific investigation. To that end I offered you that contrary fellow the determined sceptic. Reincarnation is the sort of thing that people accept on authority. Shankara speaking of Brahman as being the material and efficent cause of the universe he says of reasoning which concerns the supersensible - "Although reasoning may be noticed to have finality in some contexts, still in the present context it cannot possibly get any immunity from the charge of being inconclusive; for this extremely sublime subject-matter, concerned with the reality of the cause of the Universe and leading to the goal of liberation, cannot even be guessed without the help of the Vedas. And we said that It cannot be known either through perception, being devoid of form etc., or through inference etc., being devoid of the grounds of inference etc." B.S.B.II.i.11. > > In II.i.27 also speaking of authority he says "The nature of a thing beyond thought consists in its being other than the things within Nature." To those supernatural things he adds worldly things with occult properties eg.gems, incantations, herbs and so on... And even those powers can be known not from mere reasoning but from such instruction as, "Such a thing has such kinds of potency with the aid of such things, on such things and for such purposes." > > I suppose the significant word here is 'inconclusive'. Let the stories support your faith but not to the extent that if they turn out to be frauds your faith will then be shattered. As to whether they are a distraction from the ascent to the airier regions of Advaita Mountain I feel that one's present view of identity naturally leads to the consideration of posthumous adventures in the event that Moksha is not attained. > > The upadhis not being the same for Bhagavan Ramana was his explanation for the case of a person who was the reincarnation of someone who had not died yet. pg.215 Talks: The boy is 7 years now. He recalls his past births. Enquiries go to show that the previous body was given up 10 months ago.....Did the soul occupy two bodies at the same time? Sri Bhagavan pointed out that the seven years is according to the boy; ten months is according to the observer. The difference is due to these two different upadhis. > On page 114 he states: Not only can one be reborn, one may be twenty or forty or even seventy years old in the new body though only two years after death. > > He also says: But in fact there is neither birth nor death. One remains as what one really is. That is the only Truth. (531) > > Ciao and Blessings, Michael. > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 3 > Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:34:50 -0000 > "Ram Chandran <rchandran" <rchandran > Re: Advaita, V'Advaita and Dwaita & Advaitin Satsangh > > Namaste: > > Let me join Sadaji and Sunderji to request everyone to take the > Satsangh as a serious Sadhana. Internet is one of the greatest gift > of god and it enables everyone in the universe to join and contribute > freely. Though internet is invisible, it is an ever present platform > for everyone to meet and discuss. > > Let me provide an Indian story to illustrate the importance of > everyone's participation: Once upon a time, a small kingdom was ruled > by a compassionate king who was ever ready to help. The king wanted > to distribute free milk to all poor infants of the kingdom. Though > plenty of milk was produced in the kingdom, mostly rich families were > able to access them. The king consulted the minister for implementing > his idea of distributing free milk to the poor infants. The minister > suggested that a huge storage tank can be placed at the center of the > town for people with surplus milk to deposit. The king immediately > sent announcements to the entire kingdom and asked families with 2 or > more cows to deposit a glass of milk during early morning before > sunrise into the tank. The minister told the king that this scheme > will bring more than enough milk in the storage tank for the free > distribution. A specific day was set for the inaguration of this > welfare scheme and the king wanted to do the distribution himself on > the set day. A long que of poor people with infants were standing on > the line with the hope of receiving the milk from the king. The king > took a silver bucket and opened the tap of the tank to fill the > bucket. To his surprise and the surprise of all in the line, water > instead of milk poured on the bucket! The compassionate king was > visibly angry and called the minister for getting an explanation. > After investigation by the minister, the following explanation came > as the reason for the outcome: Every person who was supposed to > deposit a glass of milk thought that 'pouring one glass of water in a > large tank of milk' will be undetectable. Unfortunately, everyone > thought 'one glass of matter will not matter' because everyone else > will be depositing the milk in the tank. > > The moral of the story is quite trivial and let us not think that > someone will always contribute and my non-contribution does not > matter! > > Warmest regards, > > Ram Chandran > > Note: Anyone who joins the Toastmasters Club has to take the pledge: > that he (she) agrees to attend the meetings regularly and complete > the obligations requested by the Club. Those who attend Toastmasters > Club meetings know that their success is fully attributed due to > member participation and contribution. The success of this Internet > Satsangh also depends on member participation and contribution. > > advaitin, "Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh>" > <sunderh> wrote: > > > > Let me add my voice to Sada-ji's! > > > > Let everyone take a pledge to contribute to the Satsang to > > whatever extent possible as an offering. > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 4 > Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:40:39 -0000 > "Tony O'Clery <aoclery" <aoclery > Ramana on this contention, S-C-A. > > Namaste All, > > This is another subject I have thought about for some time. I feel > the term Sat-Cit-Ananda is a term for Saguna not Nirguna. > > Ramana in 'Be as you are', D Godman refers to them as not being > separate attributes but unified. This interprets in my mind that by > default he is saying it is an attribute or Saguna.p9. > > Further on he says 'with the help of Sat-Cit-Ananda', p98. This also > indicates Saguna for Nirguna by description does nothing, and cannot > help! > > Unless my interpretation is wrong, Ramana seems to be agreeing with > the position I am suggesting ie. Saguna....not the ultimate. > > I feel people have a problem handling this for it is hard to imagine > nothing. Also due to previous religious training and samskaras there > are devotional feelings, and scriptural ideas, about a concept 'God' > Brahman. > > Whereas Nirguna or Nirvana is impossible to imagine, and is > inexplicable by definition. > > Jesus talked about the way to the Father through me. Here he was > talking as the Sakti or Son. Realisation has to be by way of Saguna > in the first instant and at that instant Moksha is > achieved....IMO....ONS.....Tony. > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 5 > Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:00:31 -0000 > "kvashisht <kvashisht" <kvashisht > SIVANANDA DAILY READING FOR 17 JANUARY > > SIVANANDA DAILY READING FOR 17 JANUARY > DISCIPLINE OF SPEECH > > Tame your tongue - it is an unruly devil. Sacrifice, gift, austerity, > the study of the sacred scriptures, truthfulness - all these will > help you to develop virtuous conduct. Practise austerity of speech. > Whatever you speak must be truthful and beneficent. > > Do not utter anything that will give annoyance to anybody. A > thoughtless man who has not controlled his organ of speech and who > speaks at random, is entangled in the foolishness of his own words. > Therefore be very careful when you speak. > > Speak little. Think twice, think ten times before you speak. Weigh > the words carefully, before they come out of your mouth. Speak only > words which can do good to others. Always be polite and courteous. > Never speak in a harsh tone, never hurt the feelings of others. > > Do not talk much. Become a man of measured words. God has given you > two ears and two eyes. But He only gave you one tongue, so that you > may hear and see more than you speak. Lingual diarrhoea is a terrible > disease. > > Words exist for the transmission of ideas. Words and ideas are > inseparable; they are like fire and its heat, or like ice and its > coldness. Be careful in the selection of your words. They can produce > violent disturbance in the feelings of others. Speak only those words > which give happiness and comfort to others. > > Think more. Do much. Speak measured words. Let your tongue never > utter an unkind word, or a harsh word. Let it never speak sharp > criticism. An undisciplined tongue is a sword that cuts others' > hearts. It produces a wound that will never heal, even in a lifetime. > > Observe silence. You will have abundant energy. You will conserve > your energy this way. You will enjoy peace of mind and good health. > You will be able to turn out more work. Silence is soothing for brain > and nerves. > > Your goal is God. Your centre is God. Your ideal is God. Turn back to > God and realise everlasting bliss. Resting on Him you will be saved. > As the lamp cannot burn without oil, so too, you cannot live without > God. God is within you all the time, inspiring you, lifting you up. > Withdraw. Aspire. Meditate. Realise. > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 6 > Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:00:55 +0500 > "S.V.SWAMY" <swamy > Re: Digest Number 1580 > > Namaste Nairji, > > Since I get the mails in Digest form, I snipped all others and kept yours > only in reply. You raised an interesting point in "Remembering the future", > which is probably not as preposterous as it sounds. Many of our Puranas > talk of events which are scheduled to take place in future. And "Guru > Charitra" written in Marathi a few hundred years ago and translated into > Sanskrit and other Indian Languages (and if I remember correctly into > English too), has one chapter devoted to the story of a King, who not only > remembers his past life (he was a dog!), but also knows his next 12 lives! > > It thus seems that our concept of time is actually a thin section of a > circular continuum and memory is the link with past and prediction or > rather hope is the link with future. > > As you have rightly pointed out, it is better to write about future lives > as "Fiction" to escape the 'kind' attention of psychiatrists! > > S.V.Swamy > > At 13:33 11/01/03 -0000, Shri Madathil Nair wrote: > > Sat, 11 Jan 2003 12:07:36 -0000 > > "Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair" > <madathilnair > >Re: Past Lives and Liberation > > > >Namaste Kathirasan-Ji. > > > >Sorry for being late. Thanks for the wonderful site on past lives. > >I have always been interested in the paranormal. Still, the fact is > >that, from the rationalistic point of view, many experts have put > >forward different explanations for so-called memories of past lives. > > > >In this regard, I would like to raise the following question: > > > >All these reported cases are of past lives. Supposing, someone > >recalls a future life, will anyone buy that? No. Because the claim > >cannot be verified. He will be mercilessly pushed on to a > >psychiatrist. I remember a case in Bombay where the 'patient' knew > >details of a future life! You know what happened to him? He was > >immediately called a schizophrenic and forcibly taken to a clinic to > >receive electric shocks in addition to a number of tranquilizers that > >were then available in the psychiatrist's armoury! > > > >No one has attempted to record cases where the future is 'remembered' > >because that is against our sense of 'commonsense'. We take the > >sequential or serial nature of consciousness as rigid and > >unchangeable. Perhaps, we have a good case in Jules Verne whose > >science fiction has proved him right time and again. Thank God, he > >chose to writing fiction. Otherwise, he couldn't have escaped the > >psychiatrist's kind attention. There may be other cases. Perhaps, > >knowledgeable members among us can shed light on them. > > > >Recently, someone on our list wondered how many more births he may > >have to take before mukti is attained (I can't locate that post right > >away.). It is a tragedy that, as advaitins, we have become prisoners > >to this concept called liberation. Is such lamentation justified in > >view of the following advaitic insights? > > Message snipped... > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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