Guest guest Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 friends, is it true,that in upanishads there is no favourable evidence to shankara's Nirvisesha(qualityless)Brahman.the purport of upanishads is Theistic Monism ie savisesha-advaita as advocated by ramanuja.that means the concepts of maya and jivanmukti concepts cannot be proved. what is the difference in the teachings. cdr bvn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Namaskar, Here are two instances from the life of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa which deals with Saguna Brahman. In the first instance, it is with Sri Totapuri, the wandering monk who initiates Ramakrishna Paramahamsa into Sannyasa and shows him how to reach the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. After this event Totapuri stays for a while in the premises. In their conversations, it is mentioned that Totapuri never accepts Ramakrishna's divine mother ( Bavatarini, I think ) and says that the whole world is a big illusion and exists in the mind only. So it cannot be true. Totapuri eventually comes into some kind of unbearable stomach pain after some months and is not able to rid himself of it. He is not able to reach Samadhi state and forget this body which is his usual routine everyday!!. In his frustration, he wants to kill himself and get rid of this body and goes to the lake to jump into it. There he sees for himself that all around him is the divine mother. The lake, the trees, everything that he sees is it. His pain goes off and he realises that all along Ramakrishna had been right. In the second instance, it is with Swami Vivekananda. Swamiji, with another fellow disciple of Sri Ramakrishna, jokes one day that if everything is Brahman then the tea cup etc. is Brahman. Sri Ramakrishna wanders into the room and asks them what they were laughing about. When told, he touches Swamiji and walks away. Swamiji then sees the whole world as made of the divine mother. He roams in this state for the next 2 days. These are recorded in the life of Sri Ramakrishna. Here is Sri Ramana Maharishi's words from Talks : A visitor asks the Maharishi : that Brahman alone is real and the world ( jagat ) is false is Sanakaracharya's saying. Yet others say that the world is real. which is true ? Maharishi replies : Both statements are true. They refer to different stages of development and refer o different points of view. The aspirant starts with the definition that that which is real has to exist always; then he rejects he world as unreal because it is changing. It cannot be real; not this, not this. The speaker ultimately reaches self and there finds unity as the prevailing note. Then, that which was originally rejected as being unreal is found to be a part of the unity.Being absorbed in the reality, the world also is real.There is only being in self realization and nothing else. ........ The maharishi goes on to explain a further more points on this topic.. But the point is, he also does not reject the world as unreal totally. It is for the seeker's understanding that the saints say so. Also, I would say, it depends on the person asking the question. If a man who is totally dull wants to learn about God, then the preacher would rarther ask him to pray to the supreme power who protects when he is in distress than tell him about the Nirguna state of Brahman for which a fair amount of intelligence is needed. So their words in a particular conversation might not mean their exacts thoughts on the subject itself. How can that which has projected from Brahman be any different from Brahman ? Now, your argument may be that the whole projection is false and it is just a fictious imagination of the mind. Quite so. Now let's take a dream. Who creates a dream ? Who are the actors in the dream ? It's all You. There is nobody else. In the same way, this universal maya has to be from that supreme being , part of which we all are. By saying Nirguna and Saguna Brahman are different, don't we ourselves create duality ? Saguna Brahman does exist , and exists as long as the dreamer wants to dream. But while it's there, we have to accept its existence and that's forever. There is no begining and there is no end to Prakriti. Even if you are liberated, the billions out there are still in it. Om Tat Sat Guru Venkat "Tony O'Clery <aoclery" <aoclery wrote:--- In advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair > > The message: Just because the sages have used words, one should not > run into the erroneous conclusion that sat-chit-ananda is an > ecstatic 'experience' to be talked about. The fact that they talked > at all is their choice. Didn't Shri Buddha himself teach his > disciples? Did he say nirvAna cannot be talked about, so please shut > up all of you? > > Let us, therefore, be able to remain in SILENCE at least on this > issue. > > Pranams. > > Madathil Nair Namaste, Only a Sage can recognise another Sage/Jivanmukti. Sages talked at the level of their audience. This list is supposed to be for aspiring Advaitins. Religious trappings and scriptures are only crutches or a guide. A full pond cannot understand a full lake and so on. It is all in the mind, all all all all. The mind doesn't exist. Creation doesn't exist. Saguna Brahman doesn't exist. People hang on to comfortable concepts, they are spiritual posessions. Again if you believe in Devas then of course for you there are Devas. Lastly as Sankara says. It is real whilst one is in it. Let us not assume that he is saying it is real..........ONS....Tony. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 advaitin, Guru Venkat <v_vedanti> wrote: > > Namaskar, > Here are two instances from the life of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa which deals with Saguna Brahman. In the first instance, it is with Sri Totapuri, the wandering monk who initiates Ramakrishna Paramahamsa into Sannyasa and shows him how to reach the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. After this event Totapuri stays for a while in the premises. In their conversations, it is mentioned that Totapuri never accepts Ramakrishna's divine mother ( Bavatarini, I think ) and says that the whole world is a big illusion and exists in the mind only. So it cannot be true. > Totapuri eventually comes into some kind of unbearable stomach pain after some months and is not able to rid himself of it. He is not able to reach Samadhi state and forget this body which is his usual routine everyday!!. In his frustration, he wants to kill himself and get rid of this body and goes to the lake to jump into it. There he sees for himself that all around him is the divine mother. The lake, the trees, everything that he sees is it. His pain goes off and he realises that all along Ramakrishna had been right. > > In the second instance, it is with Swami Vivekananda. Swamiji, with another fellow disciple of Sri Ramakrishna, jokes one day that if everything is Brahman then the tea cup etc. is Brahman. Sri Ramakrishna wanders into the room and asks them what they were laughing about. When told, he touches Swamiji and walks away. Swamiji then sees the whole world as made of the divine mother. He roams in this state for the next 2 days. > These are recorded in the life of Sri Ramakrishna. > Here is Sri Ramana Maharishi's words from Talks : > A visitor asks the Maharishi : that Brahman alone is real and the world ( jagat ) is false is Sanakaracharya's saying. Yet others say that the world is real. which is true ? > Maharishi replies : Both statements are true. They refer to different stages of development and refer o different points of view. The aspirant starts with the definition that that which is real has to exist always; then he rejects he world as unreal because it is changing. It cannot be real; not this, not this. The speaker ultimately reaches self and there finds unity as the prevailing note. Then, that which was originally rejected as being unreal is found to be a part of the unity.Being absorbed in the reality, the world also is real.There is only being in self realization and nothing else. ........ > The maharishi goes on to explain a further more points on this topic.. > But the point is, he also does not reject the world as unreal totally. It is for the seeker's understanding that the saints say so. Also, I would say, it depends on the person asking the question. If a man who is totally dull wants to learn about God, then the preacher would rarther ask him to pray to the supreme power who protects when he is in distress than tell him about the Nirguna state of Brahman for which a fair amount of intelligence is needed. So their words in a particular conversation might not mean their exacts thoughts on the subject itself. > How can that which has projected from Brahman be any different from Brahman ? Now, your argument may be that the whole projection is false and it is just a fictious imagination of the mind. Quite so. Now let's take a dream. Who creates a dream ? Who are the actors in the dream ? > It's all You. There is nobody else. In the same way, this universal maya has to be from that supreme being , part of which we all are. By saying Nirguna and Saguna Brahman are different, don't we ourselves create duality ? Saguna Brahman does exist , and exists as long as the dreamer wants to dream. But while it's there, we have to accept its existence and that's forever. > There is no begining and there is no end to Prakriti. Even if you are liberated, the billions out there are still in it. > Om Tat Sat > Guru Venkat Namaste GV, I will answer by saying that Sankara said it is real whilst one is in it, and secondly to paraphrase Ramana Maharshi, it never happened at all. So there is only Nirguna.........ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Namaskar, Parama Shiva, the totally unlimited Supreme Consciousness, creates and pervades all, and all will return to that consciousness. He who is supreme reality does not give rise to unreality and so all is real and merely awaits recognition as such, according to the teachings of Pratyabijnana as developed by such sages as Vasugupta and Abhinavagupta. Sri Ramakrishna experienced all this through his exposure to the practical tantric mysticism of Bengal but now everyone tries to articulate it in terms of vedantic metaphysics rather than trika. If we would give due regard to all 36 tattvas many of these problems would be solved without so much circumlocution. Pranams, Shivaram Das "0 my Naren, are you still not convinced? He who was Rama and Krishna is now Ramakrishna - but not in your Vedantic sense!" - Sri Ramakrishna On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:02:57 -0000, Tony O'Clery <aoclery <aoclery wrote: > advaitin, Guru Venkat <v_vedanti> wrote: >> >> Namaskar, >> Here are two instances from the life of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa > which deals with Saguna Brahman. In the first instance, it is with Sri > Totapuri, the wandering monk who initiates Ramakrishna Paramahamsa into > Sannyasa and shows him how to reach the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. > After this event Totapuri stays for a while in the premises. In their > conversations, it is mentioned that Totapuri never accepts Ramakrishna's > divine mother ( Bavatarini, I think ) and says that the whole world is a > big illusion and exists in the mind only. So it cannot be true. >> Totapuri eventually comes into some kind of unbearable stomach pain > after some months and is not able to rid himself of it. He is not able to > reach Samadhi state and forget this body which is his usual routine > everyday!!. In his frustration, he wants to kill himself and get rid of > this body and goes to the lake to jump into it. There he sees for himself > that all around him is the divine mother. The lake, the trees, everything > that he sees is it. His pain goes off and he realises that all along > Ramakrishna had been right. >> >> In the second instance, it is with Swami Vivekananda. Swamiji, > with another fellow disciple of Sri Ramakrishna, jokes one day that if > everything is Brahman then the tea cup etc. is Brahman. Sri Ramakrishna > wanders into the room and asks them what they were laughing about. When > told, he touches Swamiji and walks away. Swamiji then sees the whole > world as made of the divine mother. He roams in this state for the next 2 > days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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