Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 In a recent thread on Deepest wound, in advaitin Sri Ramchandranji wrote: ' The focus of our discussion should be on the famous advaita statement, "The you in me, see the I in you." If everyone truly understands this statement, there will be ..... Hari OM, In this context, Why even our Tradional Gurus have talked about "individual souls"? This depicts them, as it were, independent discrete variables, each of which has to make an attempt to "reunite" with the source of all souls. We thus make God, a souls making factory or atleast a recycler. On the otherhand, if Advaitin Vedanta is to be accepted as the fundamental building block, then there is just one SOUL and all others are, just as an extension of it, as it were, which could be withdrawn and reprojected. For example, even this e-mail is not an independent entity. It cannot exist without this vast sea of computers connecting each other in a system called Internet. This e-mail by itself, would have no meaning if there were no preceding e-mails and following ones. To claim that this e-mail occupies a space over all others is as much a facllacy as to claim that one soul is better than others as if, they are indpendent variables. Also how can this E-mail return to its source? Once made, it just lies there as an archive. Similarly even one soul cannot be better than others, no matter even if it is a "Mahatma" or "Paramatma" or the often denigrated "Jivatma". They are all connected at one end and only the other ends, as it were, are talking to or in conflict with ea! ch other. Is there some fallacy in this view? Is it collaborated by some scriptures or Tradional Gurus? I express my Pranams to this Virtual Satsang and request their assitance to think this through. P.B.V.Rajan Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com Buy the best in Movies at http://www.videos.indiatimes.com Bid for Air Tickets @ Re.1 on Air Sahara Flights. Just log on to http://airsahara.indiatimes.com and Bid Now ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Respected Rajanji: I am sending this message only to you and not the whole group. I too have a similar doubt in my mind and also there is another question of the same type relating to the 17th and 18th shlokas of 15th chapter in Gita. Bhagwan says that there is Kshara, Akshara and above all there is Purushottama. Kshara is this body, Akshara is imperishable Atma, and then there is super-Atma. >From what I have read here in our group is Advaitin believes there is only Brahman and there is nothing else. Essentially I believe what it says is there is no duality between Atman within me and Paramatman. Do you have any thoughts on this question? Please enlighten me. With respects Shanti - pbvrajan advaitin Sunday, February 09, 2003 10:25 AM Is "Soul" Singular or Plural In a recent thread on Deepest wound, in advaitin Sri Ramchandranji wrote: ' The focus of our discussion should be on the famous advaita statement, "The you in me, see the I in you." If everyone truly understands this statement, there will be ..... Hari OM, In this context, Why even our Tradional Gurus have talked about "individual souls"? This depicts them, as it were, independent discrete variables, each of which has to make an attempt to "reunite" with the source of all souls. We thus make God, a souls making factory or atleast a recycler. On the otherhand, if Advaitin Vedanta is to be accepted as the fundamental building block, then there is just one SOUL and all others are, just as an extension of it, as it were, which could be withdrawn and reprojected. For example, even this e-mail is not an independent entity. It cannot exist without this vast sea of computers connecting each other in a system called Internet. This e-mail by itself, would have no meaning if there were no preceding e-mails and following ones. To claim that this e-mail occupies a space over all others is as much a facllacy as to claim that one soul is better than others as if, they are indpendent variables. Also how can this E-mail return to its source? Once made, it just lies there as an archive. Similarly even one soul cannot be better than others, no matter even if it is a "Mahatma" or "Paramatma" or the often denigrated "Jivatma". They are all connected at one end and only the other ends, as it were, are talking to or in conflict with ea! ch other. Is there some fallacy in this view? Is it collaborated by some scriptures or Tradional Gurus? I express my Pranams to this Virtual Satsang and request their assitance to think this through. P.B.V.Rajan Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com Buy the best in Movies at http://www.videos.indiatimes.com Bid for Air Tickets @ Re.1 on Air Sahara Flights. Just log on to http://airsahara.indiatimes.com and Bid Now ! Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Namaste Shanthiji: Since your posting did appear in the list, let me provide my understanding of the question. By quoting the verses 17 and 18 of chapter 15, you have alrady provided the answers to the question that you have raised. All that we need to recognize is that, at transient level (vyavahara or relative reality) Jivatmas appear different and at the Paramarthika level (absolute level) the differenced disappear with the superimposition. The simplest analogy that we can think of is finite algebra and infinite algebra - 1, 2, 3, etc. are different and the algebraic operations such as addition, subtraction, division and multiplication produce distinct numbers. But at infinite level only infinity remains! The entire finite algebra becomes nonoperational because infinity becomes changeless where as finite numbers change with algebraic operations. (All analogies have their limitation because we have just constructed thoughts using intellectual understanding of the absolute). The gold and golden ornaments, Clay and pots, Reflections of Sun's ray on the water, etc. can also provide answers to the question. I am hoping that our senior advaita scholar, Sadaji will be able provide more light on the question. Warmest regards, Ram Chandran Note: Please note that whenever you reply an email from the list, the reply goes back to the entire list! If you want to send your reply only to the poster, you should cut and paste the email address of the poster. advaitin, "Shanti" <shanti@f...> wrote: > Respected Rajanji: I am sending this message only to you and not the whole group. I too have a similar doubt in my mind and also there is another question of the same type relating to the 17th and 18th shlokas of 15th chapter in Gita. Bhagwan says that there is Kshara, Akshara and above all there is Purushottama. Kshara is this body, Akshara is imperishable Atma, and then there is super-Atma. From what I have read here in our group is Advaitin believes there is only Brahman and there is nothing else. Essentially I believe what it says is there is no duality between Atman within me and Paramatman. Do you have any thoughts on this question? Please enlighten me. > With respects > Shanti ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 --- "Ram Chandran <rchandran" <rchandran wrote: > I am hoping that our senior advaita scholar, Sadaji will be able > provide more light on the question. > > Warmest regards, > > Ram Chandran > > Shanti and pbvrajan Greetings. The question of whether there is one soul or many, Ram in fact has answered the question. This is one of the questions where aachaarya-s and philosophers differ. In advaita Vedanta the importance to the mahavaakya - aham brahma asmi is given. I am that Brahman - Brahman being infiniteness, as Ram mentioned, there cannot be many infiniteness hence it is ekam eva advitiiyam. If the statement is absolutely true - that there cannot be many jiiva-s since there cannot be many infiniteness. What was there in the beginning - as Ch. Up 6th ch. states - sat eva soumya - ekam eva advitiiaym - existence alone was there in the beginning and it is one without a second and that existence is of the nature of consciousness. If that absolute is sat chit and ananda then there cannot be many jiiva-s each being a chit swaruupa and sat swaruupa. One consciousness cannot be object of other consciousness – consciousness nor existence cannot be divided. If there are divisions, who will be conscious of the divisions, that which is conscious of the divisions itself should be indivisible. Hence ultimate can only be undivided (akhanDa chit ruupam only). In Geeta Krishna starts with the statements - natvevaaham jaatunaasam natvam neme janaadhipaaH, na chaiva na bhavishyaama sarve vayamataH param|| There was never a time I was not there and nor you and not even these kings assembled here, there will not cease to exist in the future - this sloka is emphasized, particularly by Bhagavaan Ramaanuja to claim that KrishNa endorses eternal presence of many jiivas Advaita's interpretation is different - jiiva's are many as Ram pointed out just as the ornaments are many but the essence is the same. Tat tvam asi teaching in fact takes that as jaha ajahllakshaNa that Ken has outlined recently. It involves discarding the differences between the tat and tvam and seeing the oneness of the essence of the two as one - the essence of jiiva is sat chit ananda swaruupa and essence of Iswara is also sat chit ananda - from that aspect there is only one. Jiiva-s which are related to identification of the upaadhi-s I am so and so - the individuals - that is different due to differences in Upaadhi's. But that is only like naama ruupa - the bangle is different from ring etc. Bhagavaan Ramana says – iishha jiivayoH vishadhii bidhaa, satva bhaavato vastu kevalam’ the difference between jiiva and iiswara is only in vesha or costume but the devoid of the costume, the essence is the same – the sat swaruupam. In the 13th chapter Krishna in fact emphasizes this aspect in terms of kshetra and kshetraj~na - The field and the knower of the field. The fields are many - but I am the knower of the field in all the fields - there is no plurality emphasized from the knower or conscious entity but plurality in the fields -yes. kshetraj~nam caapi maam viddhi sarva kshetreshhu bhaarata| In the 6th Chapter Krishna says - Sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutani ca aatmani - one who sees himself in all beings and all beings in one self - is the j~naani is also statement of Krishna. The point is there are statements of multiple jiiva-s and there are statements of oneness of all jiiva-s - advaita emphasizes the oneness as the absolute while the plurality is within vyavahaara or at saadhka levels. Ramanuja emphasizes the plurality of jiiva as absolute and says in fact each jiiva is very very tiny indeed one thousandth of the thickness of the hair - this is the meaning he gives for suukshmam - where as Shankara gives the meaning of the word as subtle rather than tiny. There are many logical problems that one will encounter if one accepts many jiiva-s as eternal absolute truths - although looking at the jiiva level this appears to be more reasonable. But remember jiiva himself is looking at the problem with the tainted glass. Hence vyavahaara satyam and paramaartika satyam are differentiated in advaita. Hari OM! Sadananda ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. Send Flowers for Valentine's Day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: There are many logical problems that one will encounter if one accepts many jiiva-s as eternal absolute truths - although looking at the jiiva level this appears to be more reasonable. But remember jiiva himself is looking at the problem with the tainted glass. Hence vyavahaara satyam and paramaartika satyam are differentiated in advaita. ---------- Sir, Extending your above logical statement a little further and ruminating on the same ,albeit,in this Vyavaharika field,it is a known fact that the population of the Globe is steadily increasing and do what you like to check population for whatever reason, the growth in human population globally is going on increasing! That would mean that new souls are being produced constantly and the number keeps on increasing ! There is a scriptural mention (Please correct me if I am wrong) that the total number of jivas in this Prapancha are " Lakha Chouryaasi" meaning 1,84,000 numbers. Sometimes I keep wondering that as the total number cannot change (Veda Vaakku), the reason for this constant increase in the number of human beings is because there is a constant decrease in the number of Jeeva raashis (Other than humans) in this Prapancha. Again ,extending this thought, I feel that more and more janthus and animals are getting promoted to the manushya level. It is high time that all manushyaas seriously do sravana,manana and nididhyaasana ,become mumukshus and obtaim Moksha in this life itself. Hari Om ! Swaminarayan ------------------------------- Hari OM! Sadananda Send Flowers for Valentine's Day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 --- Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan wrote: >> Sir, it is a known fact that > the population of the Globe is steadily increasing and do what you > like to check population for whatever reason, the growth in human > population globally is going on increasing! That would mean that new > souls are being produced constantly and the number keeps on increasing Actually the jiiva's can be infinite since there is no reason that gold has be conditioned to form only limited number of ornaments. The number that you mentioned is not number of jiiva-s but the number of types or varieties of species that have been found. In each species there may be infinite type of jiiva-s. Look at our own body. There are millions of bugs living in that generations and generations as their home. If all decide to evolve into human race,there won't be a breathing space. Hari OM! sadananda ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. Send Flowers for Valentine's Day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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