Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 > To an unenlightened man like me, how would you answer briefly and >precisely the question that shei Ramana wanted us to explore: "Who >am I" A "brief" answer to the above question is an impossibility - the five thousand years of Indian philosophical development is only about that question! But if one were to talk about the right path to tread - I would point to observing the state of deep sleep. The state of deep sleep is where the Self exists in itself, apart from the body and mind. So if an aspirant is trying to abide in his true nature - apart from the mind and body, what's he to do? Nothing but exactly simulate deep sleep in the waking state. What do you do when you go to sleep? Nothing - no action at all. You lie motionless and lose you will. The right path is also only this. Sit in a silent spot and keep you spine straight so that you do not fall asleep. You don't have to focus your mind on anything or try to control it - quite like when you go to sleep, lose the will to act. All action reinforces our identity to our body and mind and thus leads to duality. In contrast inaction leads to the non-dual state. This is why Advaita as well as Naagaarjuna teach us to abandon all action. This is why Dakshinaamurthy teaches in "silence" and the Tamil Siddhaas as well as Ramana teach "summa iru" or "keep quiet". To abide in the state of deep sleep without sleeping is nirvaana. All "spiritual actions" like meditation, bhakti etc have to be understood from this perspective for their relevance. If you steadily practice this, you practice will be reconciled with normal life itself over a period of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Respected VPCNKji: Thank you for taking time to answer my elementary question. I have understood your answer and shall follow the advice you gave. I hope my deep-sleep-yet-aware state will get reconciled with my vyavaharic life in 10 or 15 years of my life in this body that is left now. Thank you for your kindness. Shanti - "vpcnk" <vpcnk <advaitin> Friday, March 21, 2003 2:05 PM Re: Lankavatara Sutra > > To an unenlightened man like me, how would you answer briefly and > >precisely the question that shei Ramana wanted us to explore: "Who > >am I" > > A "brief" answer to the above question is an impossibility - the five > thousand years of Indian philosophical development is only about that > question! > > But if one were to talk about the right path to tread - I would point > to observing the state of deep sleep. > > The state of deep sleep is where the Self exists in itself, apart > from the body and mind. > > So if an aspirant is trying to abide in his true nature - apart from > the mind and body, what's he to do? > > Nothing but exactly simulate deep sleep in the waking state. > > What do you do when you go to sleep? > > Nothing - no action at all. You lie motionless and lose you will. > > The right path is also only this. Sit in a silent spot and keep you > spine straight so that you do not fall asleep. You don't have to > focus your mind on anything or try to control it - quite like when > you go to sleep, lose the will to act. > > All action reinforces our identity to our body and mind and thus > leads to duality. In contrast inaction leads to the non-dual state. > > This is why Advaita as well as Naagaarjuna teach us to abandon all > action. This is why Dakshinaamurthy teaches in "silence" and the > Tamil Siddhaas as well as Ramana teach "summa iru" or "keep quiet". > > To abide in the state of deep sleep without sleeping is nirvaana. > > All "spiritual actions" like meditation, bhakti etc have to be > understood from this perspective for their relevance. > > If you steadily practice this, you practice will be reconciled with > normal life itself over a period of time. > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 VPCNKji, Your description (16119) of the spiritual path as deep sleep while staying awake is really quite fascinating. I had read similar things and expressed this view to Swamiji, and he agreed. Notice the contrast to simply dozing in the sun. People may sometimes mock meditation and call it a 'fancy nap'. But there is a crucial difference: we stay awake and alert during meditation. This enables a calming and detaching change to slowly occur to the waking mind, which is the mind we most care about, or so it seems. That is where we make spiritual progress, not in our dreams. I have a beautiful image of the enlightened being as being like the eye of the storm. He remains in the perfect peace and detachment and bliss of Brahman, while the storm clouds swirl around him, like the dream that they truly are. Not easy to achieve! Better start practicing today! Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 >VPCNKji, > Your description (16119) of the spiritual path as deep sleep >while staying awake is really quite fascinating. Namaste! To read what Ramana says about deep sleep go to: http://www.sentient.org/sleep.htm Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 >I have understood your answer and shall follow the advice you > gave. The practice of silence/relaxation/inaction need not be done only during meditation. You can do it in every moment of your life. Even while working - acting! An important thing to be noted is that the instinct to act is an inherent part of our nature - this is most reflected in our anxiety and hurry in trying to get things done. So always do things slowly and thus weaken the instinct to act. Saiva Siddhaanta in its path lays great emphasis on "nidhaanam" or "patience" for this reason. And when you do something put your full focus on this so that the mind doesn't wander. Most of the times were are always doing something or the other - and our mind does parallel processing on the site. One way to weaken the mind is to put our full focus/attention on the work of the moment - this is the Buddha's advice. So in short - do things slowly and surely with full awareness of what you're doing. If you can implement this in your life, normal life itself becomes serious saadhana. Also man psychologically is highly reactive - we react to the environment around us. Try to lose this reactive instinct. This also cuts down our instinct to act. Don't will things to be - be calm and take things as they come - as Ashtaavakra teaches Janaka. As they say "be like an unshaken rock in a storm". The only illusion which prevents us from knowing our true nature is "I am the doer". Lose the will - thus lose the sense of doership. One of the things I'm slowing learning is the effect of goodness. Be of utmost help to others - let the milk of kindness flower in your heart - the mental peace/calm/strength/bliss this can give you is beyond belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 > Your description (16119) of the spiritual path as deep sleep > while staying awake is really quite fascinating. I had read similar > things and expressed this view to Swamiji, and he agreed. Who is this swamiji, Ben? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 >> Your description (16119) of the spiritual path as deep sleep >> while staying awake is really quite fascinating. I had read similar >> things and expressed this view to Swamiji, and he agreed. >Who is this swamiji, Ben? Swamiji is Eternal, Uncreated, Beyond Space and Time. He is Everywhere but has No Name, not even a social security number! Seriously, though, he is none other that our beloved Swami Dheeranandaji. See: http://www.chinmayadc.org/rc_acharyad.htm I attend Vivekachudamani classes with him every week, which I have enjoyed very much. (Don't worry! Swamiji has a great sense of humor!) Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 advaitin, "vpcnk" <vpcnk@H...> wrote: > The practice of silence/relaxation/inaction need not be done only > during meditation. You can do it in every moment of your life. Even > while working - acting! > > An important thing to be noted is that the instinct to act is an > inherent part of our nature - this is most reflected in our anxiety > and hurry in trying to get things done. Namaste Nandaji, Your advice in this post and the earlier one are indeed most profound. In my case, I find, this 'quest' itself has become a source of anxiety and distraction in the sense that I find nothing else interesting. So much so that it is not my working life that is disturbing my peace, it is the search for peace(?), truth(?), reality (?) - I don't know what, that is disturbing my working life. Somewhere Shankara warns the seeker to guard himself against what he calls chittasya LAlanam - intellectual titillation. I am not anymore sure that I am doing this too well. Does every seeker go through such a phase? Does it go off on its own or would you advise some specific measures ? Many thanks for whatever advice you can give me. pranAms, Venkat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Respected Shri Nandaji: I am delighted to know the real name of VPCNKji. Your postings have great utilitarian value for the unenlightened seekers like me. You give advice which can be put to use straightaway. Debates and highly intellectual and logical discourses have value to get knowledge. However, a Hindu wants the experience. You are teaching steps to get the experience eventually. I thank you. Regards Shanti ---- Original Message ----- "vpcnk" <vpcnk <advaitin> Saturday, March 22, 2003 4:16 PM Re: Lankavatara Sutra > >I have understood your answer and shall follow the advice you > > gave. > > The practice of silence/relaxation/inaction need not be done only > during meditation. You can do it in every moment of your life. Even > while working - acting! > > An important thing to be noted is that the instinct to act is an > inherent part of our nature - this is most reflected in our anxiety > and hurry in trying to get things done. So always do things slowly > and thus weaken the instinct to act. Saiva Siddhaanta in its path > lays great emphasis on "nidhaanam" or "patience" for this reason. > > And when you do something put your full focus on this so that the > mind doesn't wander. Most of the times were are always doing > something or the other - and our mind does parallel processing on the > site. One way to weaken the mind is to put our full focus/attention > on the work of the moment - this is the Buddha's advice. > > So in short - do things slowly and surely with full awareness of what > you're doing. If you can implement this in your life, normal life > itself becomes serious saadhana. > > Also man psychologically is highly reactive - we react to the > environment around us. Try to lose this reactive instinct. This also > cuts down our instinct to act. Don't will things to be - be calm and > take things as they come - as Ashtaavakra teaches Janaka. As they > say "be like an unshaken rock in a storm". > > The only illusion which prevents us from knowing our true nature > is "I am the doer". > > Lose the will - thus lose the sense of doership. > > One of the things I'm slowing learning is the effect of goodness. Be > of utmost help to others - let the milk of kindness flower in your > heart - the mental peace/calm/strength/bliss this can give you is > beyond belief. > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 >Many thanks for whatever advice you can give me. First let me confess my non-qualification for giving spiritual advice. I'm not spiritually realized. Nor have I overcome my vices. Atbest I'm somebody who's on the path - or is trying to be - so whatever I say on spiritual issues is atbest my opinion and is to be taken with a pinch of salt. Because what works for one need not necessarily work for another. Whatever I write below, if you intuitively feel that it is good and is suitable to you, use it - else discard it. > Your advice in this post and the earlier one are indeed most > profound. In my case, I find, this 'quest' itself has become a >source of anxiety and distraction in the sense that I find nothing >else interesting. So much so that it is not my working life that is > disturbing my peace, it is the search for peace(?), truth(?), >reality (?) - I don't know what, that is disturbing my working life. If you're having problems reconciling the spiritual teaching of Vedaanta with normal life, it is normal. Even in the days of the Mahaabhaaratha, in the Gita, we find the Krishna equating the path to be like taking poison - yes it is very hard. In these modern days especially it is even harder to live such a life and so it is natural that it troubles one's mind. But one has to persevere and after a while it becomes easier. > Somewhere Shankara warns the seeker to guard himself against what >he calls chittasya LAlanam - intellectual titillation. I am not >anymore sure that I am doing this too well. The intellect is not the knower - the knower is you. The intellect thus cannot be used to know yourself - as Yaagnavalkya points out then "by whomsoever will the knower be known"? The utility of the intellect is to teach yourself about unreality. But we're not ultimately interested in unreality - we want to experience reality - Brahman. So after a stage the intellect has to be abandoned itself. The problem especially with those with a cerebral nature is to get too involved with intellectual pursuits. But as the Isha Upanishad warns : those who ignore knowledge go to worlds of darkness. But those who make an end of knowledge in itself, go to worlds of greater darkness. Beyond a certain point, to be attached to the intellect only means suffering. >Does it go off on its own or would you advise some specific >measures ? The efficacy of practice is not to be underestimated - if you persevere you'll triumph. Phenomenal life though seems pleasurable is actually full of suffering. If you try to step past it and embrace spiritual life - initially it will be very tough - primarily because of our addiction to the pleasures of phenomenal life which will not easily let go of us. But there's power to truth - if you persevere you'll see the benefits of a spiritual life. It is like the problem of a drug addict. Initially when he trys to kick off his addiction it is very tough. But when he is able to overcome it, it makes him happy. Likewise with spirituality. But in these days pure jnaana as a path is very difficult. Integrate bhakti and karma into it - it will make it easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 ---'quest' itself has become a source > of anxiety and distraction in the sense that I find nothing else > interesting. So much so that it is not my working life that is > disturbing my peace, it is the search for peace(?), truth(?), reality > (?) - I don't know what, that is disturbing my working life. > Somewhere Shankara warns the seeker to guard himself against what he > calls chittasya LAlanam - intellectual titillation. I am not anymore > sure that I am doing this too well. > > Does every seeker go through such a phase? Does it go off on its own > or would you advise some specific measures ? Many thanks for whatever > advice you can give me. ===================================== Pranams Venkatji, i quite often oscillate thru similar evolutionary phases...from my experience the intellectual quest does provide us with that immense inspiration and direction (similar to the first stage in rocket) using this strength one has to propel upwards ie., start on a intense sadhakam which alone can pull the human out from the severe mundane attractions (gravitational forces)...Yes this first phase in launch is heavy, tough and challenging and thats where the confusions are abundant...for the one who successfully crosses the first phase, the subsequent phases (stages in rocket) in the journey are relatively easy ... and when you reach that zero gravity state the rockets are not needed any thing any more but you still move (you are a sage then) ... All the upanishads and vedanta are written by sages from that state of mind, thats the whole reason we could see a definitive guantee in the scriptures but cannot comprehend their terminologies used to describe the zero gravity state ( satchit ananda state )... The sadhakam is a five billion human experiment ( every human devices his own path of evolution ) to go beyond the gravitaitonal (samsaric ) forces... Pranams to advaitins V.Srinivasan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 One of the really important things in spiritual realization is calming/taming the mind. Here understanding the connection between breathing and the mind can be very useful : Everytime we think, we necessarily stop breathing. You can watch out for this experentially. Breath naturally stops when the mind works. If you want to control the mind - chitta vritti nirodah or the cessation of mental modifications - just make sure that you're always breathing! This is actually Patanjali's advice. But it is to be noted that this is action. As with all actions, even spiritually inclined ones, the utility of even this is not ultimate ie one cannot know oneself because of this - fundamentally because all actions are related to the mind and body and senses, none of which is the Self. But such actions helps in setting up a condition within oneself conducive for true knowledge to arise/manifest. Like this aspect of breathing, one should always be on the look out for practices which enable us to reconcile spiritual life with normal life. That way we can "live" spiritually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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