Start from Scratch

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Benjamin-ji wrote:

>I have decided, in agreement with Nanda VPCNK, that these discussions

really are more of an impediment than an aid to realization.

>

> I still have faith that a much 'higher state of consciousness' is

attainable, in which we realize our divinity. But

> the way we go about this cannot really be analyzed, which seems to make

our list a bit irrelevant I suppose.

 

Dear Ben-ji and All:

 

So many beautiful paths...One Holy Destination.

It is said that the Lord will come to you in a form you find pleasing.

I suppose the corollary to that is that God will welcome you as you seek

the path you find pleasing.

 

While I have admitted, to my illusory public shame, that I have not read the

Gita, I choose to remain on this list. While my way is of the Heart, aka

bhakti, powered by an illusory Shakti,

that does not mean that I reject or ignore all other ways.

For me, one bolsters the other.

 

I have read enough, even if in the form of small quotes on this and other

lists to know enough to remind you that the illusory Lord Krishna himself

outlines more than one path to apprehend your own divinity.

One way is that of the jnana yogi. For those whose inclination is to

openly dissect the mind to see what they Find, this list is divine!!!

For those of us whose way is that of devotion, this list is a buoy

as we come up for air whilst we drown in the ocean of emotion.

 

I will admit further that I seldom read entire posts here, other than to

scan them. Being one who does not like math, I find the equations, well,

oppressive. Being one who avoids quagmires, as soon as my mind begins to

spin, I stop. One + One= One is all I need to know.

But I read enough to complement my understanding as I seek release.

Oh, yes, although I am grounded in devotion, I do now seek

Moksha. I have had enough of this!!!

 

Even the Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi, whose teachings can be summed up in One

sentence, was considered one of the greatest jnani sages. Yet, this jnani

sage taught that the Heart is the Self. Find the Way to your Heart and

there you will find your Self, waiting patiently...along with Rumi and you

and me...All in the Oneness of Divinity.

 

Hari OM,

 

Joyce

 

PS I lied. I have read more of the Gita than Arjuna's Despair.

To those who scoff at "imagined gods and the

power of the Heart" see below:

>From an imaginary Lord Krishna...

Chapter 12- The Yoga of Devotion

 

"Those who love and revere me

with unwavering faith, always

centering their minds on me-

they are the most perfect in yoga"

 

12.1-2

------------

 

"Knowledge is better than practice;

meditation is better than knowledge;

and best of all is surrender, which

soon brings peace."

 

12.1-12

-----------------

 

"Those who realize the essence

of duty, who trust me completely

and surrender their lives to me-

I love them with very great love."

 

12.18-20

 

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[Guest guest]

Benjamin wrote:

"Well, I guess there is no point revisiting this. All I can do is

reiterate that my arguments seemed clear, reasonable and carefully

expressed, at least to me. It is quite fascinating to me that you and

others have so much trouble understanding what seems so clear to me. That

was the most valuable lesson that I've learned so far from this list,

namely, that when it comes to philosophical discussions, we might as well

sometimes be on different planets."

 

Hello Benjamin,

I have no trouble understanding you. It's perfectly straightforward

subjective idealism with a little garam massala of vipassana and zen added

to the pot. Initially it seems defensible enough but take it a bit further

along the road and its difficulties become apparent as with David Hume.

 

The chief problem with Hume and he was aware of this himself is the tangle

he gets into when he tries to offer a theory of self-identity. His

predicament is very similar to that of the Buddhist Idealist. Annata/annica

(no self/momentariness) country. In a perfectly rational way Sankara shows

the shortcomings of this philosophy using arguments which previse the very

influential modern American philosopher Sidney Shoemaker(Self Knowledge and

Self Identity). Shri Sidney does not mention the Vedas once.

 

Must one mention the Vedas? Sankara manages to present a total account of

Advaita in a rational manner in Chap.II of Upadesa Sahasri without

significant recourse to Vedic authority. It's worth reading. Of course

when he came to a point such as the self-luminous nature of awareness and

its implication for self-identity he had his own realisation to guide him.

He would be saved from annica/annata because that would not be true to his

own realisation and he never fudged those issues because there are real

differences.

 

At certain points Sankara offers intuitions which are rational but

irreducible. You either get them or you don't. eg. "If you were changeful

like the mind or the senses (which pervade their objects one after another),

you would not simultaneously know all the mental modifications, the object

of your knowledge". It is at this point that meditation comes in as a way

of feeling the force of this. I hold that there is a distinction between

merely understanding something and feeling the force of it. When you feel

the force of something there is a radiant energy which rejects positions

which are not coherent with that.

 

To which end may I offer a poem to the members by William Wordsworth not

amongst his anthologised but interesting from the point of view of Dhyana.

 

Expostulation and Reply

 

'Why, William, on that old grey stone,

Thus for the length of half a day,

Why, William, sit you thus alone,

And dream your life away?

 

'Where are your books?- that light bequeathed

To Beings else forlorn and blind!

Up! up! and drink the spirit breathed

>From dead men to their kind.

 

'You look round on your Mother Earth,

As if she for no purpose bore you;

As if you were her first-born birth,

And none had lived before you!'

 

One morning thus, by Esthwaite lake,

When life was sweet, I knew not why,

To me my good friend Matthew spake,

And thus I made reply:

 

'The eye - it cannot choose but see;

We cannot bid the ear be still;

Our bodies feel, where'er they be

Against or with our will.

 

'Nor less I deem that there are Powers

Which of themselves our minds impress;

That we can feed this mind of ours

In a wise passiveness.

 

'Think you, 'mid all this mighty sum

Of things for ever speaking,

That nothing of itself will come,

But we must still be seeking?

 

'- Then ask not wherefore, here, alone,

Conversing as I may,

I sit upon this old grey stone,

And dream my time away.'

 

 

Best Wishes, Michael.

 

 

 

 

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