Analysis of Brahma Sutra

[Guest guest]

Dear Sirs,

 

Last day I was reading the book "Analysis of Brahma Sutra" by Swami Krishnananda

of The Divine Life Society, Rishikesh.

Towards the end of the book, in the last chapter "Consideration of some Issues

arising in the Brahma Sutra" I came across something which I feel is not

explained completely.

 

" There is another difficulty which suddenly erupts in the Sutra when it speaks

of the liberation of the soul. The Sutra makes out that the liberated soul is

free only in so far as it can enjoy the bliss of perfection equally as Brahman,

but it cannot have the power of creation, preservation, destruction etc. of the

universe. This categorical statement would mean that even in the state of

liberation the soul is not fully liberated. Here the Sutra seems to be landing

itself on the qualified monism of Acharya Ramanuja, according to whom the soul

is an organic part of Brahman but not identical with Brahman. If we persuade

ourselves to believe that the Sutra is sympathetic with the Vaishnava theology

of Ramanuja, we can easily understand why the soul in liberation cannot have the

power of God Himself. Acharya Sankara here has practically nothing to tell us

except to interate that if the soul is given the power of creation, etc., there

would be a clash of purposes among the liberated souls. Here again arises the

question: are there many liberated souls in the state of Brahman? Acharya

Ramanuja would not disagree with this proposition, but Acharya Sankara would

find here a hard nut to crack. "

 

Kindly explain how this can be seen in the Advaitic view. The author is mum on

the subject and doesnt go deep into it which leaves readers like me in the dark.

 

regards,

 

ranjeet

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Ranjeet,

 

>"There is another difficulty which suddenly erupts in

>the Sutra when it speaks of the liberation of the soul.

>The Sutra makes out that the liberated soul is free only

>in so far as it can enjoy the bliss of perfection equally

>as Brahman, but it cannot have the power of creation,

>preservation, destruction etc. of the universe.

 

I have absolutely no expertise in the Brahma Sutras, and a vastly

more qualified list member would be Sri Sadananda, for example. But

let me share the following opinion, for what it's worth.

 

If according the the Advatic view, we become strictly identical with

Brahman upon liberation, then it seems to me that logically we must

share his omniscience, omnipotence, powers of creation (howsoever

illusory the creation), etc. However, the same identity can also

lead to no conflict of purpose or intention, insofar as one can speak

of purpose or intention at that level. Being perfect means being

able 'to do' only that which is perfect, insofar as one can even

speak of 'doing' at that level. This all proceeds from logic, in my

view. This is what I meant by 'divine slavery' in an earlier post,

which was intended to be controversial and thought-provoking.

Logically, Brahman can have only one choice, and hence no choice,

which is to be perfect.

 

Such is my naive view.

 

Pranams!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben>

wrote:

>

>

> Dear Ranjeet,

>

>

> >"There is another difficulty which suddenly erupts in

> >the Sutra when it speaks of the liberation of the soul.

> >The Sutra makes out that the liberated soul is free only

> >in so far as it can enjoy the bliss of perfection equally

> >as Brahman, but it cannot have the power of creation,

> >preservation, destruction etc. of the universe.

 

Here "it" must mean the individual, or the body / elements of the

jIva. Brahman cannot be individuated.

> If according the the Advatic view, we become strictly identical

with

> Brahman upon liberation, then it seems to me that logically we

must

 

There is no "we" left - the individual has completely dissolved, the

source only remains.

> share his omniscience, omnipotence, powers of creation (howsoever

> illusory the creation), etc. However, the same identity can also

> lead to no conflict of purpose or intention, insofar as one can

speak

> of purpose or intention at that level. Being perfect means being

> able 'to do' only that which is perfect, insofar as one can even

> speak of 'doing' at that level.

 

Savithri

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Ranjeet,

 

You wrote :

" There is another difficulty which suddenly erupts in the Sutra when it speaks

of the liberation of the soul. The Sutra makes out that the liberated soul is

free only in so far as it can enjoy the bliss of perfection equally as Brahman,

but it cannot have the power of creation, preservation, destruction etc. of the

universe. This categorical statement would mean that even in the state of

liberation the soul is not fully liberated. Here the Sutra seems to be landing

itself on the qualified monism of Acharya Ramanuja, according to whom the soul

is an organic part of Brahman but not identical with Brahman. If we persuade

ourselves to believe that the Sutra is sympathetic with the Vaishnava theology

of Ramanuja, we can easily understand why the soul in liberation cannot have the

power of God Himself. Acharya Sankara here has practically nothing to tell us

except to interate that if the soul is given the power of creation, etc., there

would be a clash of purposes among the liberated souls. Here again arises the

question: are there many liberated souls in the state of Brahman? Acharya

Ramanuja would not disagree with this proposition, but Acharya Sankara would

find here a hard nut to crack"

 

I looked up the text that mentions this in Brahma Sutra Bhasya of Sri Shankara

translated by Swami Gambhirananda.

 

Here is my 2 cents worth...

 

If you look at the section that says the line : " The released soul gets all the

divine powers except that of running the universe..." , its after description of

the powers of the soul residing in Brahma Loka. There is description of

liberated soul residing in a body or without a body. I assume living in a body

is while in this earth ( buloka ) and without a body is in the other spheres (

lokas of the Gods ). But existence of a loka indicates that it is not the

highest state where all invididuality will be lost forever, where one is merged

with the Parabrahman. So this is , in my opinion , the abode of Gods where they

have miraculous powers , and it is here that this restriction is mentioned. The

released soul, which is mentioned might be the soul that has left the body after

death.

 

According to the puranas, the sage viswamitra did mimic the power of Brahman and

replicate the universe when Trishanku, the person he sent to be accepted in

svarga was refused entry. I am not sure how the purana goes after.

 

Om Tat Sat

 

Guru Venkat

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Guru Venkat,

 

" If you look at the section that says the line : " The released soul gets

all the divine powers except that of running the universe..." , its after

description of the powers of the soul residing in Brahma Loka. There is

description of liberated soul residing in a body or without a body. I assume

living in a body is while in this earth ( buloka ) and without a body is in

the other spheres ( lokas of the Gods ). But existence of a loka indicates

that it is not the highest state where all invididuality will be lost

forever, where one is merged with the Parabrahman. So this is , in my

opinion , the abode of Gods where they have miraculous powers , and it is

here that this restriction is mentioned. The released soul, which is

mentioned might be the soul that has left the body after death. "

 

I've read what you have mentioned here regarding the state of the soul in

the different lokas. So that means we can never attain liberation in the

Buloka.. and not even in the BrahmaLoka where you stay only for a short

duration enjoying the fruits of your Good Karmas. Afterwards you descent

back to Buloka (rebirth) for further cleansing of your soul. If this is so,

what is know as "Sadyo Mukti", the immediate Salvation ?

 

Om

 

ranjeet

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Extension descriptions of the philosophy of human life (Vedanta) can

be found in the Upanishads, the Brahmasutra and the Bhagavadgita.

Among the three, Bhagavadgita is the good starting point for easier

understanding of complex questions that arise in our minds.

Bhagavadgita presents the essence of the contents of Upanishads and

the Brahmasutra in 18 chapters. The question that you have raised

though appear simple requires solid understanding of Vedanta. In the

beginning of Gita, Arjuna had only one doubt - "Am I justified in

killing my friends, relatives and teachers in the battlefield?" He

perceived that it was wrong to kill and laid down his bow and arrows

and to get the attention of the Lord for help and guidance. The

dialog in question and answer form provided Arjuna the courage,

energy and determination to make up his mind to fight the war.

 

There is extensive discussion on 'transient pleasures'

and 'transcendental happiness.' in 7th, 9th, 14th, 17th and 18th

chapters of Bhagavadgita. A careful reading of these chapters would

provide the answer that you are looking for. Honestly no one can

convince you with an answer and you should get ready to convince on

your own!

 

Sri Sadaji already mentioned about the Brahmasuutra notes that are

available at URL:

advaitin

After the accessing the site, double click on the folder

<Brahamasuutra notes>

You can download and read the entire notes and discussions.

 

Also the list archives contain over 16000 postings and a careful

search of the archives can also provide the answer.

 

Waremst regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "Ranjeet Sankar_s"

<thefinalsearch> wrote:

> Namaste Sri Guru Venkat,

>

>

> I've read what you have mentioned here regarding the state of the

soul in

> the different lokas. So that means we can never attain liberation

in the

> Buloka.. and not even in the BrahmaLoka where you stay only for a

short

> duration enjoying the fruits of your Good Karmas. Afterwards you

descent

> back to Buloka (rebirth) for further cleansing of your soul. If

this is so,

> what is know as "Sadyo Mukti", the immediate Salvation ?

>

> Om

>

> ranjeet

[Guest guest]

Namaste Ram Chandranji,

> Among the three, Bhagavadgita is the good starting point for easier

> understanding of complex questions that arise in our minds.

> Bhagavadgita presents the essence of the contents of Upanishads and

> the Brahmasutra in 18 chapters.

 

I am aware that in raising this problem I can very easily be

misunderstood. So at the very outset I would like to say that I am

writing this with utmost humility and reverence and am doing so only

because the problem has bothered me a lot.

 

I too received the same advise on Bhagvadgita. But when I read it I

found that it was pointing out at all directions - karma, Bhakti,

Jnaana, Dhyaana and even enlightened (not in the way it is usually

understood on this list) self-interest in sections where the Lord

talks about Kshatriya Dharma. I also do not see a progression of

ideas like first Bhakti, then Dhyana, Karma, Jnaana etc. The text

criss crosses between these between chapters and even within a

chapter.

 

Maybe the Gita is meant to be used by all and hence show a way for

every body. But in the process it becomes a putty in the hands of

interpreters who each interpret it according to their own

predilections. Even within the jnaana tradition interpretations vary

quite a lot. So much so that I have not been able to read the Gita in

one go and have to admit that I have, except for a few verses

here and there, not read chapters 14 to 18 at all. (I am eagerly

looking forward to our Satsangh catching up with those chapters).

 

Early in Chapter 2 Arjuna asks the the lord, 'Shreyaha syaat

nishchitam broohi tan may'- tell me with certainty what is good for

me. Though he took up his bow and started to fight at the end of

Gita, I am left with a feeling that he did not get a 'certain' answer.

 

May I have have your (and that of others as well) views on this

please. A reminder - its a perplexed devotee,who is unable to make

his brain shut up, who is asking this question.

 

Pranaams,

Venkat

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Ranjeet,

 

You wrote :

 

" I've read what you have mentioned here regarding the state of the soul in the

different lokas. So that means we can never attain liberation in the Buloka..

and not even in the BrahmaLoka where you stay only for a short duration enjoying

the fruits of your Good Karmas. Afterwards you descent

back to Buloka (rebirth) for further cleansing of your soul. If this is so, what

is know as "Sadyo Mukti", the immediate Salvation ?"

 

 

Reply :

 

Firstly, I am quite new to Advaita ( religion for that matter ) myself and am

not quite familiar with these topics. I try to quote only from what I have read

on Advaita from the scriptures or an authority.

 

According to Sri Ramana Maharishi ( and of course Sri Sankaracharya ) you are

never in bondage. So liberation is not something you have to newly attain. So

your very question if you cannot be liberated in buloka is wrong. It is wrong

because under the spell of Maya you have forgotten your true state. It is

because of this all this is happening. So Mukti is always there. We just have

to discriminate and identify the real.

 

This world and the other worlds if they exist, exist only in the mind. I've read

that certain type of karmas get exhausted in the other worlds, but the other

karmas have to be exhausted in this world. Again, ascension / descension is due

to the illusion. so never you go anywhere or come from anywhere. Also how much

Karma can you really exhaust and attain Mukti ? Even as you exhaust karma you

create more and there is no end. Only knowledge can burn the Karmas and save you

from this endless cycle.

 

Om Tat Sat

 

Guru Venkat

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Venkatji,

 

" Firstly, I am quite new to Advaita ( religion for that matter ) myself and

am not quite familiar with these topics. I try to quote only from what I

have read on Advaita from the scriptures or an

authority. --------------------This world and the other worlds if they

exist, exist only in the mind. I've read that certain type of karmas get

exhausted in the other worlds, but the other karmas have to be exhausted in

this world. Again, ascension / descension is due to the illusion. so never

you go anywhere or come from anywhere. "

 

I'm also new to Advaita and I've never read the Holy Scriptures. The little

bit I (think I) know about these subjects are from the commentaries of

various sages. I've read that the Upanishads give a detailed picture of the

descend of the soul. Maybe the commentators failed to read between the lines

and they never saw the real meaning. So even though I do not agree wholly

with your opinion, I would rather refer some texts (as per Sadanandji's &

Ram Chandranji's opinion) before commenting on the same. I'm happy that I'm

in the company of learned people like yourself.

 

Om

ranjeet